Facts you should know about PS3

  • Thread starter Thread starter tha_con
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how can you guys not be tired of these retarded "vs" threads.
Must be nice to be you, tha_con, cause I have to wait to get the next gen systems whereas you own them and get to benchmark and dissect them.
 
Black95Z28
how can you guys not be tired of these retarded "vs" threads.
Must be nice to be you, tha_con, cause I have to wait to get the next gen systems whereas you own them and get to benchmark and dissect them.

Well, considering this is not a thread battling which is better, PS3 or XBox360, I find that statement rather funny. :)
 
This isn't a retarded vs thread, theres some retarded vs comments in this thread, but it's still an informative thread.
 
Black95Z28
how can you guys not be tired of these retarded "vs" threads.
Must be nice to be you, tha_con, cause I have to wait to get the next gen systems whereas you own them and get to benchmark and dissect them.

Considering I haven't given out any information that wasn't readily available on the internet, I wouldn't accuse myself of such.

All I have done is research, and compile, if you ahve a problem with that, you can do your own research. But I haven't made any false claims other than what I have seen from official press releases.
 
wow, you guys get defensive.
Maybe you should reread this thread then, bottom line youre trying to get across, ps3>360.
:/
 
Having lots of core's dose mean power but, utalising the power is going to be a different matter altogether, I was reading a magazine today about the multi core processors and the guy (Rob Jamieson) who wrote the article works for ATI (maker of the x-box 360 GPU), and he states that having a dule core processor compared to a single all well and good, but if you cant push the software to make use of the CPU then it will be just as slow as a single core processor. I know that a console is very different to a PC workstation, but the simple properties lie true in both.

"If you split a bit of code to run on two processors at once, one of these threads might finish first. This thread would have to wait for the second thread to finish before moving onto the next task"

" As i said last month the software developers are looking into developing multi-threaded aplications but itwill take time and is hard to develope for" (Rob Jamieson - MCAD Magazine May 2005)
 
sprite
Having lots of core's dose mean power but, utalising the power is going to be a different matter altogether, I was reading a magazine today about the multi core processors and the guy (Rob Jamieson) who wrote the article works for ATI (maker of the x-box 360 GPU), and he states that having a dule core processor compared to a single all well and good, but if you cant push the software to make use of the CPU then it will be just as slow as a single core processor. I know that a console is very different to a PC workstation, but the simple properties lie true in both.

"If you split a bit of code to run on two processors at once, one of these threads might finish first. This thread would have to wait for the second thread to finish before moving onto the next task"

" As i said last month the software developers are looking into developing multi-threaded aplications but itwill take time and is hard to develope for" (Rob Jamieson - MCAD Magazine May 2005)

Excellent points. To those of us that understand computer architecture that was a given. But I do believe it was very helpful to those that can be "wowed" but numbers and stats.

It's ALL about the programming. Anyone remember High Res mode on GT1 for the PS1? That was some good stuff, especially for the time. Imagine what can be done once the programmers master this new hardware. 💡
 
Black95Z28
wow, you guys get defensive.
Maybe you should reread this thread then, bottom line youre trying to get across, ps3>360.
:/

Bottom line is I'm clearing up speculation in reference to the power of the PS3. Many don't believe it will be capable of doing what it has been shown, and while there were demo's that were overblown, it is still a powerful machine. So is the 360. I have defended both consoles where people have made absurd assumptions because they don't understand the technology. That's them.

I haven't made comparisons to place one console on a high horse, what i have done is demonstrate how it is possible to skew numbers for the purpose of marketing.

I.E. two days after Sony debut's it's next generation console, microsoft releases graphs charts and a full blown report blasting the PS3 saying it's the weaker machine. So, in turn, I have shown how numbers can be added/stretched to alter performance numbers.


The sole purpose of this thread is to provide information :)
 
You think WE'RE being defensive? You been to an XBox board lately? "The Xbox demos were running at only 30%, and.. and.. uh.. everything Sony showed was CGI!! HAHA!!"

All we're doing is smacking them upside the head for being stupid, is all.
 
sprite
Having lots of core's dose mean power but, utalising the power is going to be a different matter altogether, I was reading a magazine today about the multi core processors and the guy (Rob Jamieson) who wrote the article works for ATI (maker of the x-box 360 GPU), and he states that having a dule core processor compared to a single all well and good, but if you cant push the software to make use of the CPU then it will be just as slow as a single core processor. I know that a console is very different to a PC workstation, but the simple properties lie true in both.

"If you split a bit of code to run on two processors at once, one of these threads might finish first. This thread would have to wait for the second thread to finish before moving onto the next task"

" As i said last month the software developers are looking into developing multi-threaded aplications but itwill take time and is hard to develope for" (Rob Jamieson - MCAD Magazine May 2005)

While that's true for Multi Core processors etc, it's only difficult because they haven't been provided with the tools necessary to complete the task.

I, for one, will vouch for both consoles, because both will be significantly easier to program for. Considering the new power, there will be fewer tricks involved. While some people are complaining about multi core processing problems and software problems, the developers are contridicting them as we speak.

The language used for both consoles ranges, and since both support basic C++ most developers are having very little trouble, especially since the tools have been around for ages (direct x, open gl etc).

If Epic Games can get the Unreal engine working in real time with fully adjustable camera angles, rendering the entire city, and water etc. I'm not worried about either console having troubles.
 
tha_con
If Epic Games can get the Unreal engine working in real time with fully adjustable camera angles, rendering the entire city, and water etc. I'm not worried about either console having troubles.

All that the unreal engine dose is put spanking normal maps on low poly models and this isnt that impressive. All that is happening with the unreal engine is that they make a low poly character upto about (5,287 triangle in-game mesh - fig 1)

(fig 1)
lowpoly3jk.jpg


then once they have this they make a heavy poly version from this mesh by adding all the details this is about (Purely geometric 2,000,000 triangle detail mesh - fig 2)

(fig 2)
highpoly1le.jpg


For a mesh to run in game like this you will need to jump about a bazzillion years into the future. from this they make a normal map (wont go into the specifics as its a little to complicated and boring).

Once they add this to the low poly mesh and do some lighting trickery you end up with this result (fig 3)

(fig 3)
finishedresult2hc.jpg


they look astounding but notice the edges around the model in fig 3, you can see its a low poly mesh underneath, so all the power of the ps3 is doing is creating some fancy lighting to make the models look like high poly meshes, and this is all about programming, and considering that Sony dont have the best track record for middleware tools and what not, i wouldnt be too sure that unreal appears on the PS3 for a while at least, plus all the footage show at e3 was supposed to be in-game but what ive seen is high poly models on screen nothing what i was expecting at all, the shift from high poly meshes and the amount of pure grunt has gone, those days were left with the voodoo cards, making game look pretty with programming and fancy effects is the order of the day and this is what we can expect from these next gen consoles.

sorry if this seem a rant but ive been studying normal mapping for a year and a bit and even though i still cant get the blooming things to work with my models is starting to wind me up, granted they look very good if dont correct and epic have done this well, the wow facter has gone for me as i saw these images last year.
 
well, I like both systems and will have both.. the only thing that upsets me is that one system is going to be a bottleneck for the other. you guys know what im talking about, ported games. When games made for one, usually weaker, system are ported to the next without optimizition/enhancements(or very little). Hopefully these two systems will be so close in power I wont have the same problem this generation had.
 
Black95Z28,

I agree with you on this, im sure tho that they will still have this problem.

shame too. just sods law or an inside conspiricy to make us buy more games an hardware. ;)
 
sprite
All that the unreal engine dose is put spanking normal maps on low poly models and this isnt that impressive. All that is happening with the unreal engine is that they make a low poly character upto about (5,287 triangle in-game mesh - fig 1)

(fig 1)
lowpoly3jk.jpg


then once they have this they make a heavy poly version from this mesh by adding all the details this is about (Purely geometric 2,000,000 triangle detail mesh - fig 2)

(fig 2)
highpoly1le.jpg


For a mesh to run in game like this you will need to jump about a bazzillion years into the future. from this they make a normal map (wont go into the specifics as its a little to complicated and boring).

Once they add this to the low poly mesh and do some lighting trickery you end up with this result (fig 3)

(fig 3)
finishedresult2hc.jpg


they look astounding but notice the edges around the model in fig 3, you can see its a low poly mesh underneath, so all the power of the ps3 is doing is creating some fancy lighting to make the models look like high poly meshes, and this is all about programming, and considering that Sony dont have the best track record for middleware tools and what not, i wouldnt be too sure that unreal appears on the PS3 for a while at least, plus all the footage show at e3 was supposed to be in-game but what ive seen is high poly models on screen nothing what i was expecting at all, the shift from high poly meshes and the amount of pure grunt has gone, those days were left with the voodoo cards, making game look pretty with programming and fancy effects is the order of the day and this is what we can expect from these next gen consoles.

sorry if this seem a rant but ive been studying normal mapping for a year and a bit and even though i still cant get the blooming things to work with my models is starting to wind me up, granted they look very good if dont correct and epic have done this well, the wow facter has gone for me as i saw these images last year.

That entire post was a huge understatement.

Lighting "trickery"?

Do you understand exactly how complicated High Dynamic Range lighting is to render in real time? Especially since PS3 manipulates the maps to give the effect of high poly models.

Then you take into consideration the fact that this is going on with nearly EVERYTHING in the level.

Now we can think about the particle effects and shaders used to create the explosions and smoke.

Then we can talk about the effects used to create the heat waves that blast from the fire.

The amount of power required to do all of this without a hitch isn't anything to be "unimpressed" by.



Programming this engine to run so smoothly in only two months on brand new hardware is amazing. Period. Weather or not you are impressed is unimportant, it's still a feat. There is so much going on and all you did was comment on one portion of the demo. Don't sell it short, because there are VERY FEW consumer end PC's that you can go out and purchase that would run this. You would have to spend large amounts of money to run it so smoothly. Those are just the facts.
 
Con if you read the post fully they use normal maps not HDRI "Quote - High Dynamic Range lighting" HDRI is for hi definition rendering not for normal mapping. And as you ask yes I know about HDRI because I use it in Maya and Cinema 4D, and ive studied normal mapping for my games design course.

BTW i didnt find these images they were shown to me by a guy called Jolyon from codemasters who came in to teach 3DS max, and im sure he knows what he's on about.

You don’t need to get all defensive, the post was there to show what the unreal engine actually dose, I make 3d models all the time, and I actually have just finished a degree in multimedia design so I know what im talking about, to see what I mean go

here
and
here

" Support for all modern per-pixel lighting and rendering techniques including normal mapped, parameterized Phong lighting; custom artist controlled per material lighting models including anisotropic effects; virtual displacement mapping; light attenuation functions; pre-computed shadow masks; directional light maps; and pre-computed bump-granularity self-shadowing using spherical harmonic maps." << quote from site about unreal engine.


Just as we are clearing things up, HDRI is a form of texturing not lighting, you apply a texture to a shader then to a model and when you render it generates a reflection on the object.
 
Swift
Excellent points. To those of us that understand computer architecture that was a given. But I do believe it was very helpful to those that can be "wowed" but numbers and stats.

It's ALL about the programming. Anyone remember High Res mode on GT1 for the PS1? That was some good stuff, especially for the time. Imagine what can be done once the programmers master this new hardware. 💡


Very true, With the original Ridge Racer for ps1 it ran at 320x240 and 30fps, years later Namco got the exact same game running at 640x480 and 60fps on the same hardware. It came with R4 and i still have it.

Why is having high normal maps on a low polygon model bad? It looks freaking awsome. Shouldnt that be all that matters? The Unreal Engine 3 tech demo already explained this technique. Its ok for you to be unimpressed. I'm impressed by anything that hasn't been done in console games yet, paving the way to the next generation.
 
LaBounti i agree totally, but what i was trying to get across was that everyone is say that the ps3 is super mega powerfull and Con pointed out unreal (which i know will be on ps3 as epic have said already) will look good if they get it to work

tha_con
If Epic Games can get the Unreal engine working in real time with fully adjustable camera angles, rendering the entire city, and water etc. I'm not worried about either console having troubles.

So i was saying that ps3 will easy handle this engine but it dosnt demonstrate the absolute power of ps3, in fact i would go to say that the ps3 will run this all day long with a cherry on top, but only if they programme it, and Sony having a bad track record with middleware stuff i was dubious of a realese.

As for Con getting in a fluster and scoffing my post with incorrect information, i believe that maybe he dosnt actually know what hes talking about, normal maps are very good and are the future of games be it on PC or console, but the power that the next gen consols have x-box or playstation, will easy run this type of stuff, and maybe that things showing at the moment like killzone are just pre renders or CGI cutscenes (its still in hype mode at the moment) I love normal maps but they are a bugger to work with, and get working withing a game engine.
 
sprite
Con if you read the post fully they use normal maps not HDRI "Quote - High Dynamic Range lighting" HDRI is for hi definition rendering not for normal mapping. And as you ask yes I know about HDRI because I use it in Maya and Cinema 4D, and ive studied normal mapping for my games design course.

BTW i didnt find these images they were shown to me by a guy called Jolyon from codemasters who came in to teach 3DS max, and im sure he knows what he's on about.

You don’t need to get all defensive, the post was there to show what the unreal engine actually dose, I make 3d models all the time, and I actually have just finished a degree in multimedia design so I know what im talking about, to see what I mean go

here
and
here

" Support for all modern per-pixel lighting and rendering techniques including normal mapped, parameterized Phong lighting; custom artist controlled per material lighting models including anisotropic effects; virtual displacement mapping; light attenuation functions; pre-computed shadow masks; directional light maps; and pre-computed bump-granularity self-shadowing using spherical harmonic maps." << quote from site about unreal engine.


Just as we are clearing things up, HDRI is a form of texturing not lighting, you apply a texture to a shader then to a model and when you render it generates a reflection on the object.

I'm not trying to challenge your intelligence, and I apologize if I came across in a negative manner, however I feel you are shortchanging both the XB360 and the PS3.


The fact that the following is going on in real time, on the PS3 and XB360 is nothing to be unimpressed by, it's great technology. I fail to see how you are unimpressed by this.

First, it's running at 720P. Running all of this, at 720P:

Per Pixel Lighting/Shadowing
HDRI (this is in fact present on the unreal demo, period, no if's and's or but's. The RSX has 128-BIT HDR which allows you to see all the brilliant highlights and the shadows without washing out the image. This is not an easy operation and hit's hard on performance)
Special Effects such as water, fire, the sky, explosions, heat waves, depth of focus, motion blur, all of these were present in the demo.

And do go a bit more indepth with the rendering of the character models.

You hit the nail on the head, so I won't knock you. First a Low poly mesh is created, then the high poly mesh consisting of millions of polys is created. Then it's raytraced, and a normal map is formed, and placed over the real time mesh during rendering. This allows for all of the high detail lighting effects (together with shaders etc) to give the effect of the high poly mesh.

HOWEVER.

Without good HDRI, this STILL would be significantly less impressive. That is what I'm trying to get across.

HDRI is insane, and difficult to just toss into a game. Look at Far Cry. It had HDR, and took a huge performance hit because of it. Still I think that HDRI is what will bring games to the next level, it's the most useful tool out there IMO, among other things, but it brings games to life.
 
sprite
Just as we are clearing things up, HDRI is a form of texturing not lighting, you apply a texture to a shader then to a model and when you render it generates a reflection on the object.

:boggled: Um... WHAT?!?

Okay.. you're makin' s**t up now...

High Dynamic Range Imagery. An image format (.hdr, .exr, .cin, etc) that contains more information than can be displayed on a normal 24-bit display (i.e. a television or computer monitor). For example, film. Let's say you're standing in a forest, and you shoot a picture of a tree silhouetted against the clear blue sky and sunny field behind it (I actually have this image if you'd care for me to demonstrate). If shot with a digital camera, you're stuck with whatever the picture looks like. If it's shot on film, you have everything. If you want to brighten up the tree so you can see every little detail in the bark, you can. If you want to darken the tree so it's silhoetted against the backdrop, so you can see every blade of grass, and every wispy cloud, you can. An HDR image format, (Cineon, for example, what Hollywood uses when it scans film into a computer), still contains all that information. From the darkest darks to the brightest brights, NOTHING is lost. Every last pixel is there if you want to see it.

HDRI has nothing to do with texturing. If you want an object to reflect HDRI, all you do is put your reflective object into the scene, and give it an HDRI environment to reflect. The object does not need any special shaders or textures or anything.. ye olde chrome ball will reflect HDRI just as well as anything else. It's just reflecting what it sees. From the brightest brights to the darkest darks.

There are two methods that the next-gen systems will utilize HDRI:

1) HDR rendering. Being able to utilize light sources that are brighter than 100%. The sun, for example, drowning out the light from a flashlight. This is pretty light on computations.. Unreal 3 has been able to do this for quite a while now. HDR reflections would fall into this category.

2) HDR lighting. Using the HDR image itself to actually light the scene. The bright sky illuminates the environment, etc. The Alfred Molina demonstration at E3. The textures are unaffected and have nothing to do with it. The computer/console simply analyzes the backdrop, determines where the bright spots are, what color, what intensity, etc, and then uses that data to illuminate the model. This is the equivelant of scattering thousands of individual light sources around the scene, which is why it takes so damn long to render in CGI. How the PS3 is able to do it in 1/60th of a second, I have no clue. Probably shortcutting, and that would fall under #1, using light sources indicative of the background, rather than the traditional lighting, or lack thereof, that past- and current-gen systems use.

Nowhere in any of that does HDR have the slightest thing to do with texturing.

If you'd care to expand on how it DOES involve textures and shaders, feel free. You use it in Maya, you said. I use it in LightWave. Surely, the basics would be the same.. those two programs are quite similar in many respects.
 
Once you got your unwrapped HDR image, in your 3D package, put it on the luminance channel of a texture, put that texture on a sphere surrounding your scene (or a sky object if your 3D package provides it), set radiosity on, render your scene, and voila.

yes you are correct but you have to apply it as a texture first to a object surrounding a scene then you render your scene out and and the refections are as they would if it was real, obviousley this is complimented by other things like sub surface scattering and the such but you get the idea.

like you said tho it maybe different how you do it in other progs as ive never used lightwave just C4d, Maya, z-Brush and 3dsmax the later being the bain of my life.

PS do you do any modeling and rendering stuff your self coz im always looking to chat with other cg artist but their seems to be hardly any on here.

sorry if i wasnt clear in the post above but what i said was right.
 
AH, okay... I thoght you were saying that the chrome ball in the middle needed to have the HDR mapped somehow.

Incidentally, LW has a plugin called "ImageWorld" that automatically does all that, but without any actual object for the background. You load your chrome-ball photo in HDR format, and set it to this plugin. It's unwrapped and overlaid over the entire background. Using Background Radiosity will make use of it, without having to resort to Interpolated or Monte Carlo (i.e. full diffuse-lighting radiosity, which is even more of a CPU killer).

Here's a thought... one CG artist to another:

****TECHY TALK**** :D

There's a series of plugins and programs for "faking" HDR illumination. *digs around his hard drive* Ah, there it is.

HDRShop + the LightGen plugin. Basically, you load up your chrome-ball HDR photo, unwrap it in HDRShop or whatever, then run this LightGen plugin. Fiddle with the parameters, and it spits out a wonderfully complex, completely illegible text file. Load this up into LightWave via LightGen2LW, and it creates a series of lights. Point lights, distant lights, whatever, scattered in a large sphere around your scene. Postion, color, and intensity are based on values taken from the original HDR image. The number of lights is based on whatever you told LightGen to export.

So what you get is a smattering of lights that will illuminate your scene like the HDRI will, but without the radiosity and render times. Quite handy, really. (there may be a Maya version of the LightGen2whatever plugin.. if you do a lot of rendering with HDR, I recommend it).

Do you think that the PS3 may be doing something similar? I can't imagine how on earth the thing could do real-time HDRI lighting in that Molina video.. it would take my computer hours to render one frame at 1080. BUT.. if it were "cheating", creating a light array based on the HDR, it could render much faster. This is evidenced by the fact that there were specular highlights on Alfred's face during the demo... HDR doesn't do that, it's diffuse lighting only.

Your thoughts?
 
I'm not going to buy either of these consoles when they first come out. With these kinds of advancements i'm positive there will be loads of problems and setting up will probably be hell. Plus i gurantee a year after this thing is released a better, stronger version will be out. Just look at the PSP......
 
the_undrtaker89
I'm not going to buy either of these consoles when they first come out. With these kinds of advancements i'm positive there will be loads of problems and setting up will probably be hell. Plus i gurantee a year after this thing is released a better, stronger version will be out. Just look at the PSP......

Uh...I can understand bugs in the system. But setting up? what do you mean. Also, what do you mean by "look at the PSP"?
 
Their going to release a better PSP now, and all the chumps that bought the original one won't have as many features. And setting up, I don't know, I just have a guy feeling something is going to happen with setting up. Companies always find a way to screw something up.
 
Funny enough today a buddy sent me an e-mail telling me about HDRShop and sent the prog as an attachment, as for PS3 and the X-Box 360 using such a method it could well be, this is what they say about rendering HDR on the latest GPU'S 6800

link

If they can do it on the 6800 series, think what it will be with the RSX. Im still scepticle about what the next gen consoles will bring in terms of graphics and preformance, i mean ive been let down by Sony before they promised loading times would be cut (not true in most cases) they said jaggies were a thing of the past and due to lack of middleware on Sonys part the developers have had a hard time dealing with AA in game, so much was promised with PS2 and wasnt delivered.

here is hopeing to a brighter future for the PS3 and Sony.

have a look at this its quite a read.
 
the_undrtaker89
Their going to release a better PSP now, and all the chumps that bought the original one won't have as many features. And setting up, I don't know, I just have a guy feeling something is going to happen with setting up. Companies always find a way to screw something up.

Ah, well they've done that with the gameboy for years. Hasn't hurt sales a bit. ;)
 
sprite
Black95Z28,

I agree with you on this, im sure tho that they will still have this problem.

shame too. just sods law or an inside conspiricy to make us buy more games an hardware. ;)
You said some good points, but you should know better than to talk to this crowd. All they do is get defensive. :crazy:
I hate when they say, "What PC can do this?!" (They didnt even stop to think that these demo's we NOT run on PS3 but on a computer :dunce: ) The PS3 isnt even released and the RSX isnt even on silicon yet. When it is... EVERY PC virtually can, because the equal will come for the PC(probably sooner than the PS3 is available to the consumer). The RSX will only be the best for 3-6mos until the next generation of hardware comes out.
So, you think we'll still have the bottleneck between systems? Which do you think will be the bottleneck?
 
Black95Z28
You said some good points, but you should know better than to talk to this crowd. All they do is get defensive. :crazy:
I hate when they say, "What PC can do this?!" (They didnt even stop to think that these demo's we NOT run on PS3 but on a computer :dunce: ) The PS3 isnt even released and the RSX isnt even on silicon yet. When it is... EVERY PC virtually can, because the equal will come for the PC(probably sooner than the PS3 is available to the consumer). The RSX will only be the best for 3-6mos until the next generation of hardware comes out.
So, you think we'll still have the bottleneck between systems? Which do you think will be the bottleneck?

Key word is consumer.

Consumer PC.

Not some super machine you build for 2K. A consumer PC.
 
Just because a better GPU comes along doesn't mean it's going to make PC's the equal of the consoles. That's never happened, if you actually look at the last few generations of consoles. PC architecture is just too different. It always takes them several years to catch up to the level of console games, and the PCs that do it are statistically far superior to their console counterparts.

Case in point:

Build a computer to the following specifications:

300MHz CPU
32MB RAM
4MB graphics card running at approx 147MHz.

Then I want you to run Gran Turismo 4 on it at 60fps.

As for comparisons for next-gen.. it'll work the same way. PC's may be "more powerful" fairly quickly, but it will take them no small amount of time to catch up to what the consoles are doing. As for the dev kits, don't think for a minute those things are PC's. They may look like PCs, but they ain't. They sure as hell aren't running Windows, that's for sure. Their operation is far closer to that of a console than a PC. Which means they're FAR more powerful than any "comparable" PC.
 

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