Failures of Motorsports - Car Designs, Team Mistakes and More

  • Thread starter Panoz
  • 493 comments
  • 94,719 views
GT PRO-AM
IIRC the ACEMCO team was often let's say "sloppy" in preparing the car, lots of oversights here and there. The car itself, on the other hand, often lacked reliability (I remember for example the Vitaphone Konrad team in the FIA GT, their Saleens were often fast but fragile, but also in the various national championships it often went like this), another proof of this lies in the only class victory at Le Mans obtained in the last edition in which the GT1s participated, again IIRC.
Click to expand...
The S7R also won the first race it competed in, the 2001 Sebring 12 Hour. Which makes it unique in that it won its first race and last race.
GT PRO-AM
And to think that when the Saleen S7R arrived in Europe it intimidated everyone, I remember that it was the RML (Ray Mallock) team who first believed in this car. Years later I have the feeling that he won less than his potential.
Click to expand...
I hope RML believed in the car, considering they were the guys tasked with designing and building all of the S7Rs. It really was one of the first times that it was designed as a race car before the road car.
 
GT PRO-AM
Like you correctly say, to a certain degree maybe yes, it belongs on this thread.
Click to expand...
You know, recently I have been wondering, where does this thread stand on Motorsport endeavours that started off as failures but were more successful in the long run?

I mean like the Infiniti Q50 in the British Touring Car Championship, from a solitary point with Support Our Paras Racing in 2015 to winning the title in 2020 and 2021 with Ash Sutton, for instance.
 
Har1MAS1415
You know, recently I have been wondering, where does this thread stand on Motorsport endeavours that started off as failures but were more successful in the long run?

I mean like the Infiniti Q50 in the British Touring Car Championship, from a solitary point with Support Our Paras Racing in 2015 to winning the title in 2020 and 2021 with Ash Sutton, for instance.
Click to expand...
With the current NGTC regs, it's hard to lay blame on any car in particular being a failure as success largely stems from how well a particular team pulls together the many 'spec' parts and develops the whole package. I imagine a good team can develop any car (that fits within the regs) to be a winner/contender with the right driver.
 
TheCracker
With the current NGTC regs, it's hard to lay blame on any car in particular being a failure as success largely stems from how well a particular team pulls together the many 'spec' parts and develops the whole package. I imagine a good team can develop any car (that fits within the regs) to be a winner/contender with the right driver.
Click to expand...
Kind of muddies the waters really.

I suppose I should have used the Honda turbo hybrid as an example instead. From "GP2 Engine" with McLaren to controversially winning the 2021 title with Max Verstappen.
 
GT PRO-AM
IIRC the ACEMCO team was often let's say "sloppy" in preparing the car, lots of oversights here and there. The car itself, on the other hand, often lacked reliability (I remember for example the Vitaphone Konrad team in the FIA GT, their Saleens were often fast but fragile, but also in the various national championships it often went like this), another proof of this lies in the only class victory at Le Mans obtained in the last edition in which the GT1s participated, again IIRC.
Click to expand...
I was there that year.
Canon Le Mans 6.10 107.jpg

I took this photo in the last hour of the race I think. Not bad for a 9 year old.
 
-Fred-
This whole Covid-19 thing made me revisit F1 races of the past decade since the current season is no-go, and it brought back memories of a team that perhaps wasn't exactly a failure, but more of an under achiever. Either way:

Toyota F1 (2002-2009)
6gxq5fzecux31.jpg


13 podiums, 3 poles and 278.5 points in 140 GPs over 8 seasons. Respectable for a midfield, privateer team like Jordan or Arrows, but Toyota had a stratospheric 400+million budget/year, bigger than both Ferrari and McLaren (this was the West/Mercedes era, remember), and probably more than all the other teams combined. Toyota showed hints of brilliance here and there, most notably during the 2005 season where they finished 4th in the constructor championship... and then got beat by Williams, their customer team, in 2007. They sporadically scored points until 2009 where once more things looked promising in the early part of the season, only to ultimately pan out to nothing spectacular resulting in Toyota pulling the plug in November.
Click to expand...
They cancelled the last year of the TS020 project because of f1...
De Cortanze told in an interview in French, that the TS020 was due to have a massive update for 2000, the study was over, and from his would have been a rocketship. Sadly it never came and he used all the studies from Toyota to make the Modification of the Courage C60 for Henri Pescarolo, from 2002.
 
Har1MAS1415
Not bad at all! I'm impressed!
Click to expand...
I remember my first Motorsport photo, but I wish I kept it. Had been waiting about 15 years of my life to go to Albert Park, and first practice session I went out to the straight after what was turns 11 and 12 and captured a beauty that looked similar to this:

1711538106072.png
 
Marneus_boss
They cancelled the last year of the TS020 project because of f1...
De Cortanze told in an interview in French, that the TS020 was due to have a massive update for 2000, the study was over, and from his would have been a rocketship. Sadly it never came and he used all the studies from Toyota to make the Modification of the Courage C60 for Henri Pescarolo, from 2002.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the TS020 would have finally won a race if it had continued into 2000...
 
Marneus_boss
They cancelled the last year of the TS020 project because of f1...
Click to expand...
If it wasn't for the Mercedes-Benz CLR hogging all the infamy, the 1999 Toyota GT-One would probably be remembered as a bit of a joke; three cars suffering three identical tyre failures that completely crippled the cars due to a design flaw. It was quick and competitive, sure, but it was a complete failure. Katayama was lucky to finish 2nd behind the superior and wrongly forgotten BMW.

In the only other race it competed in, the Fuji 1000, it lost to an inferior and even more obscure car - the Nissan R391.

It's very easy to say 20 years later "Oh we would have won next year, we had it all ready...".
 
Liquid
If it wasn't for the Mercedes-Benz CLR hogging all the infamy, the 1999 Toyota GT-One would probably be remembered as a bit of a joke; three cars suffering three identical tyre failures that completely crippled the cars due to a design flaw. It was quick and competitive, sure, but it was a complete failure. Katayama was lucky to finish 2nd behind the superior and wrongly forgotten BMW.

In the only other race it competed in, the Fuji 1000, it lost to an inferior and even more obscure car - the Nissan R391.

It's very easy to say 20 years later "Oh we would have won next year, we had it all ready...".
Click to expand...
Like the Mazda 787, i think it's the GranTurismo factor that's given it more fame then its results really reflect.
 
Har1MAS1415
Aside from winning Le Mans in 1991...
Click to expand...
Because the other teams fell over themselves to not finish and because Mazda exploited a loophole that allowed them to run at 150kgs less than their rivals. The 787B was decidedly average apart from this one freak result.

The Jags that finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th behind the Mazda had qualified 7 or 8 seconds a lap quicker the previous year but had been effectively slapped with a 200kg penalty because of rule changes. The Mazda, which exploited a way around this was running at the same pace it had the year previously.
 
Last edited:
TheCracker
Like the Mazda 787, i think it's the GranTurismo factor that's given it more fame then its results really reflect.
Click to expand...
Lamborghini Diablo GT500 enters chat

Car became iconic to the west entirely due to its status in GT3 as Japanese exclusive, the first Lambo in GT due to a license technicality and altered the Italian event into a Pagani one make.

However it was often the worst car in GT500 as it was more a passion project for JLOC to take an abandoned Diablo GT1 concept and take to the Japan GT Championship. The organisers don't care about it either and is rarely seen or mentioned in any replays of the seasons the car raced. Not even the weight ballast system could get it to win races compared to the Mclaren F1.
 
TheCracker
Like the Mazda 787, i think it's the GranTurismo factor that's given it more fame then its results really reflect.
Click to expand...
I was going to mention the Gran Turismo factor and obvious Japanese bias. It's going to be good there irrespective of actual real-life performance.
 
TheCracker
Because the other teams fell over themselves to not finish and because Mazda exploited a loophole that allowed them to run at 150kgs less than their rivals. The 787B was decidedly average apart from this one freak result.

The Jags that finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th behind the Mazda had qualified 7 or 8 seconds a lap quicker the previous year but had been effectively slapped with a 200kg penalty because of rule changes. The Mazda, which exploited a way around this was running at the same pace it had the year previously.
Click to expand...
Yes, apart from that one freak result, the 787B never even finished in the Top 4 in the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.

Speaking of Mazda...

Earlier in the thread, there was a post about Peugeot's unsuccessful stint as a works team in the British Touring Car Championship in the 1990s. The same year that Peugeot entered the BTCC (1992), Mazda did likewise, with Roger Dowson Engineering running a single 323F for Patrick Watts. Only twice did Watts trouble the scorers all season with 5th at Knockhill his best result.

The 323F was sold off to the Asquith team and privateer Ian Cantwell for 1993 and replaced with the Xedos 6. It was an improvement on its predecessor but not by much. Apart from a trio of 4th places, the only real highlights were Watts taking pole at Snetterton (and throwing it away by colliding with Steve Soper on the first lap, damaging the car enough to rule him out of taking the restart) and setting the fastest lap at Silverstone. The car was also less reliable than it's predecessor, scoring more points finishes, but also more non-finishes.

For 1994, the team joined forces with Team Dynamics and expanded to two cars for reigning Independent's Champion Matt Neal and David Leslie. The season got off to a promising start with Leslie scoring two 8th places in the first two races but thereafter, the Scot never troubled the scorers again, despite consistently making the finish. Neal managed a 100% finishing record, and even scored his first point for Mazda with 10th place at Snetterton but then came the first Silverstone meeting where he had his infamous barrel roll in Race 1 after a collision with Leslie and privateer Chris Goodwin. The resulting injuries ended Neal's season there and then and Leslie dropped out after the 2nd Silverstone meeting due to budgetary problems. Mazda's season and time in the BTCC was over.

A newer 323F model was entered in the FIA Touring Car World Cup at Donington Park for Neal with Slim Borgudd entering a Xedos but they only finished a lapped 21st and 22nd out of 24 finishers and Neal was an early retirement in the following TOCA Shootout. Plans to run Borgudd in the 323F under the Team Magic banner in 1995 got as far as being on the official entry list but were eventually shelved. Apart from Mitsubishi (since they only contested the 1991 Season then dropped out) Mazda was the BTCC's least successful works team of the Supertouring era with no podiums and winning the wooden spoon every year they competed.
 
Last edited:
Com Fox
However [the Diablo] was often the worst car in GT500 as it was more a passion project for JLOC to take an abandoned Diablo GT1 concept and take to the Japan GT Championship.
Click to expand...
@Roflwaffle made a good video about it. Well worth the 40 minutes.

 
Northstar
Think we can add Sonoma's repave to the list, only finished a little over a month and the track is already falling apart.

sportscar365.com

SRO America Adjusts Weekend Schedule Amid Track Repairs – Sportscar365

Emergency track resurfacing at Sonoma Raceway to postpone most track activity to Saturday...
sportscar365.com sportscar365.com
Click to expand...
Reading your username, I was thinking... Can we remember the disappointing Cadillac LMP900 effort?

Project lasted only three years, with the LMP00 (2000), based on the Riley&Scott chassis, which then evolved into the LMP01 (2001) which however was erm, sooo much similar to the LMP00, and then arrived at the LMP02, a completely distorted car which, despite being much more aesthetically appealing, on paper it should also have been much more competitive and instead it wasn't really so.

GM pulled the plug at the end of 2002, in three years no victories, only five podiums (all obtained in the ALMS) and disappointing results at Le Mans which was the main target.
 
Last edited:
-Fred-
Cadillac's LMP Program
cadillac-00003-1.jpg

cadillac-lmp-03.jpg


Hot on the heels of BMW and Audi, GM decided to enter Cadillac at Le Mans to get a bit of worldwide exposure on the brand. The 2000 cars were built around an already dated Riley & Scott chassis, and were pretty much off the pace everywhere they raced. Best finish in 2000; a fourth place at Monza, and 19th at Le Mans. 2001 was much of the same, again evolving the R&S chassis, claiming as high as 3rd place at Mosport in the ALMS, and ultimately being classified 15th at Le Mans . The 2002 car was built in house and showed Cadillac was at least trying to take it seriously. 9th place at Le Mans, and a season high 2nd place at Miami showed there was potential for 2003, at which point GM killed off the program, saying it had met expectations and then focused on the Corvette program instead.
Click to expand...
GT PRO-AM
Reading your username, I was thinking... Can we remember the disappointing Cadillac LMP900 effort?

Project lasted only three years, with the LMP00 (2000), based on the Riley&Scott chassis, which then evolved into the LMP01 (2001) which however was erm, sooo much similar to the LMP00, and then arrived at the LMP02, a completely distorted car which, despite being much more aesthetically appealing, on paper it should also have been much more competitive and instead it wasn't really so.

GM pulled the plug at the end of 2002, in three years no victories, only five podiums (all obtained in the ALMS) and disappointing results at Le Mans which was the main target.
Click to expand...
 
The Caesars Palace GP of 1981 and 1982. Let's race in a hotel car park! Great idea! NOT!

Also the US GP at the Phoenix street circuit from 1989 to 1991, when F1 is less popular than ostrich racing, you know something is seriously wrong.
 
Let's also not forget that the Casino Parking Lot GP was also being held during the middle of the day in the hottest part of the year, so not only did they have few people willing to charbroil in the Nevada heat to watch it, a few drivers nearly passed out from dehydration and heat exhaustion. Pretty much just a total failure in planning at every level on that one.
 

Latest Posts

Back