Fanatec CSL wheel losing center during race?

[seslab]

slthree,

You can't compare medical with industrial availability.
Also it is not fair to compare tiny Fanatec with the monster Amazon, a whole other world concerning resources.
Btw, the CSL Elite can also be bought from Amazon, it costs 100 bucks more. A bit much just for first class service

From experience I can tell you that other sim race manufacturer take way way longer to answer. And those manufacturer are way way bigger then Fanatec. From statements in different forums it can take months until ones gets answer. You can be happy you never had to deal with Thrustmasters after sales department

 

[PocketZeven]

slthree,

You can't compare medical with industrial availability.
Also it is not fair to compare tiny Fanatec with the monster Amazon, a whole other world concerning resources.
Btw, the CSL Elite can also be bought from Amazon, it costs 100 bucks more. A bit much just for first class service

From experience I can tell you that other sim race manufacturer take way way longer to answer. And those manufacturer are way way bigger then Fanatec. From statements in different forums it can take months until ones gets answer. You can be happy you never had to deal with Thrustmasters after sales department

Fanatec had a revenue of 10-11 million Euro in 2016. I suspect a significant increase in 2017 (release of PS4 CSL Elite). The company Endor AG is valuated at 22 million euro. By far not as large as Guillemot at 71 million (revenue 80 million in 2017). With a revenue of 10.2 million you hardly can call Fanatec small. Profit of 2016 probably because of investment into R&D (csl elite) etc.

Being an E-commerce company they should be investing more in Customer service. Handling with consumers directly does require a lot more resources then having a retailer in between. According to financial statements they have 19 employees so I guesstimate around 7-10% of their operating cost. So there should be room in their budget.

P.S: If I was Guillemot I would be looking at buying Endor AG. Their Net income was 17.5 million. Endor AG was valuated at one point (nov 2017) at approx. 40 mil.

 

[seslab]

Fanatec had a revenue of 10-11 million Euro in 2016. I suspect a significant increase in 2017 (release of PS4 CSL Elite). The company Endor AG is valuated at 22 million euro. By far not as large as Guillemot at 71 million (revenue 80 million in 2017). With a revenue of 10.2 million you hardly can call Fanatec small. Profit of 2016 probably because of investment into R&D (csl elite) etc.

Being an E-commerce company they should be investing more in Customer service. Handling with consumers directly does require a lot more resources then having a retailer in between. According to financial statements they have 19 employees so I guesstimate around 7-10% of their operating cost. So there should be room in their budget.

P.S: If I was Guillemot I would be looking at buying Endor AG. Their Net income was 17.5 million. Endor AG was valuated at one point (nov 2017) at approx. 40 mil.

Thanks for the numbers
If you read my post again you'll notice that my statement about Fanatec being small relative to Amazon, it fairly is. It should be clear that it depends on the point of view. Compared to bakery in a small hidden village, certainly Fanatec isn't that small. But again, Fanatec/Endor vs Thrustmaster/Guillemot and the monster Amazon, Fanatec is pretty small and we did not even mention Logitech

There are many manufacturer acting in different sectors out there selling their products exclusively directly to customers. None of them I know have such a fast customer service. The difference between them and Fanatec is that Fanatec acts in the sim racing world, and sim racer aren't the most patient customer out there. Improvement is always possible, there are no limits to that, including a 10 minutes service and repair at your home 24/7 after a ticket was opened (exaggerated for explanation purpose). But this will come along with cost and Fanatec gear isn't cheap already.
It is important to mention that Thrusmaster also acts as a E-commerce company (partly at least) and as you mentioned they are significant bigger than Fanatec. But customer service is by far not as good as it is at Fanatec (from experience). That's the reason why I really hope Fanatec will never be part of Guillemot, this will not guaranty a faster customer service by any way.

If there is a point where Fanatec can or should improve, at least from my point of view, it would be the stock availability in the CSL Elite range. I guess that Fanatec didn't expect the high demand for the CSL which certainly also has to do with the relatively high priced main competitor, the TGT, making people switching from Thrustmaster over to Fanatec, especially after release of GTS. Having an Asian production doesn't help regarding flexibility. Some kind Fanatec is the first victim of their own success. I have 10 friends on PSN owning a CSL. 8 of them had to wait several weeks from order to delivery. One of them got it over Amazon and only 1 out of 10 was lucky enough to order it while it was available immediately. Hopefully they learned the lesson for future releases:tup:

 

[PocketZeven]

Thanks for the numbers
If you read my post again you'll notice that my statement about Fanatec being small relative to Amazon, it fairly is. It should be clear that it depends on the point of view. Compared to bakery in a small hidden village, certainly Fanatec isn't that small. But again, Fanatec/Endor vs Thrustmaster/Guillemot and the monster Amazon, Fanatec is pretty small and we did not even mention Logitech

There are many manufacturer acting in different sectors out there selling their products exclusively directly to customers. None of them I know have such a fast customer service. The difference between them and Fanatec is that Fanatec acts in the sim racing world, and sim racer aren't the most patient customer out there. Improvement is always possible, there are no limits to that, including a 10 minutes service and repair at your home 24/7 after a ticket was opened (exaggerated for explanation purpose). But this will come along with cost and Fanatec gear isn't cheap already.
It is important to mention that Thrusmaster also acts as a E-commerce company (partly at least) and as you mentioned they are significant bigger than Fanatec. But customer service is by far not as good as it is at Fanatec (from experience). That's the reason why I really hope Fanatec will never be part of Guillemot, this will not guaranty a faster customer service by any way.

If there is a point where Fanatec can or should improve, at least from my point of view, it would be the stock availability in the CSL Elite range. I guess that Fanatec didn't expect the high demand for the CSL which certainly also has to do with the relatively high priced main competitor, the TGT, making people switching from Thrustmaster over to Fanatec, especially after release of GTS. Having an Asian production doesn't help regarding flexibility. Some kind Fanatec is the first victim of their own success. I have 10 friends on PSN owning a CSL. 8 of them had to wait several weeks from order to delivery. One of them got it over Amazon and only 1 out of 10 was lucky enough to order it while it was available immediately. Hopefully they learned the lesson for future releases:tup:

I apologise and didn't mean to say that Fanatec's customer service is bad by the way. It is difficult to contact Fanatec for new customers. you need to register an account before contacting them. Any new customer have to depend on the info given on their website or use forums like these for more info. Although I do think their website is topnotch.

edit: cleaned up post to keep thread on topic.

 

[seslab]

I was emphasizing that for an online retail company Fanatec is by no means "small" (It is a publicly traded company) Especially in a niche like simracing.

Ones again, the statement "small" was related to slthree's post where he was comparing Fanatec with Amazon. In that relation it is small (not from a general point of view).

However for an online exclusive business, customer service is not on par with the standard.

I know companies acting exclusively online that are worse than Fanatec, but I also now better ones. Now you need to make clear what you mean by "not in par with the standard". Is "standard" the midway between bad and good? If so, then from my own experience I would say it is in par with the standard, while not being among the best.

You can't e-mail

A contact form can be found on their homepage.

you can't call

Not correct. Ones you receive an answer via email a phone number can be found in the signature. Also a very quick search on google will give you a phone number. However it's true that no phone number can be found directly and good visible on their homepage. Endor for sure has some reasons for, that we both are ignoring. But if I see how some simeracer react after having a issue, I can guess why they don't do so. Also it might have to do with costs, but I'll get back to that in my next post.

and worst of all you need to register an account before contacting them

Also not correct. Go to "contact us", under "other" -> fill out the form, no need to have an account.
You forgot mention the support chat, which needs an account but you still didn't mention it while it is a pretty handy feature.

Any new customer just have to depend on the info given on their website or use forums like these for more info.

This needs some clarification. 3 ways to contact them as a customer and 2 ways as a non customer.
To be honest, how much information one gets directly from the respective manufacturer vs information they get from forums? In our days people get mostly information from forums.



Edit: Post heavenly cleaned up to stay on topic.

 

[PocketZeven]

Ones again, the statement "small" was related to slthree's post where he was comparing Fanatec with Amazon. In that relation it is small (not from a general point of view).




I know companies acting exclusively online that are worse than Fanatec, but I also now better ones. Now you need to make clear what you mean by "not in par with the standard". Is "standard" the midway between bad and good? If so, then from my own experience I would say it is in par with the standard, while not being among the best.




I definitely can. Not even to mention Thrustmaster who also partly acts as an "E-tailer", like in your case, if I'm not mistaken, you ordered your TGT directly from Thrustmaster (or it might be another forum member) using a discount code. If so, I really hope you never ever will have an issue with your gear. We will have good chances to not talk about hours without getting answer, but days or even weeks. But as mentioned in my previous post, there is no limit to get better, like one don't need be bad to get better. As you have mentioned: "I didn't mean to say that Fanatec's customer service is bad by the way.".




Didn't know that filling up a contact form is so much harder than sending a email, first world problems probably...
Btw, ones you get answer from your contact form enquiry, you can email them back, at least it was my case and also applied for two other frineds.




Wrong. Ones you receive an answer via email a phone number can be found in the signature. Also a very quick search on google will give you a phone number. However it's true that no phone number can be found directly and good visible on their homepage. Endor for sure has some reasons for, that we both are ignoring. But if I see how some simeracer react by just a little issue (e.g. heavy reaction because the brake pedal has a different looking/finish), I can guess why they don't do so. Also it might have to do with costs, but I'll get back to that in my next post.




You can't be more wrong with that statement. Go to "contact us", under "other" -> fill out the form, no need to have an account.
With all your criticism about how to contact them you did not mention the support chat, which needs an account but you still didn't mention it while it is a pretty handy feature.




This also isn't true... 3 ways to contact them as a customer and 2 ways as a non customer. You where aware about the ways to get in touch with Fanatec before you gave them your money. Still and despite of you criticising Fanatec for that you decided to give them your money. It is a bit easy now to come up with your critics while you had the option to don't go for Fanatec gear...
To be honest, how much information from your TGT did you get directly from Thrustmaster vs information you got from forums? I bet you got a huge part of your information from forums. So why isn't it ok with Fanatec?



In general, and don't get it personally. I follow the Fanatec vs Thrustmaster discussions since November 2017, helped me to confirm to purchase one product instead of the other. I've been thru almost every post in every single threat about simracing gear in gtplanet. It seems to me, I might be wrong like some other members could be, that many of your posts about Fanatec are pretty negative in a exaggerated way, even way before you owned a Fanatec product. In some cases even making wrong statements, while you were minimizing issues with Thrusmaster. They are quite some examples for that. I hope you understand that one can easily think that you don't like Fanatec while you appreciate their products. And for the last point it sims not very clear sometimes. There is something emotional when you're criticizing Fanatec which can not be said when you're minimizing with Thrustmaster. Just mentioning a personal feeling.

I apologise to the OP for going offtopic!

 

[seslab]

To answer with more time about turnover and customer service.

Fanatec had a revenue of 10-11 million Euro in 2016

First, with 19 employees Fanatec can not be considered as a big company.
Don't know in what sector you work. As a owner of company in the technology field I can tell that a revenue of 10-11 million isn't that much, considering Fanatec is active in many parts of the world and collaborating with huge players in the game (Microsoft, Sony etc.). My company is also collaborating with big players in the audio field across the European continent. In order to be able to produce and sell high-tech products one needs to get highly specialized employees which are not easy to find and "expensive", very "expensive". I don't like the word expensive when talking employees because I see it as an investment, but they come with a non negligible cost. Also consider tooling for R&D and prototyping. Actually R&D has a very high costs in our days.

Take total revenue minus total expenses like highly specialized engineers (hardware and software) and respective tooling, industrial designer and respective tooling, licensing fees, sales and marketing, specialist in international laws, investments (past, actual and future), production of products (Asia still doesn't work for free, they even got more expensive in the last couple of years), customer service, management, dividends, taxes, etc.
Considering all that, 10-11 million Euro revenue for a company like Fanatec doesn't sound that huge from an entrepreneur point of view.

 

[PocketZeven]

To answer with more time about turnover and customer service.



First, with 19 employees Fanatec can not be considered as a big company.
Don't know in what sector you work. As a owner of company in the technology field I can tell that a revenue of 10-11 million isn't that much, considering Fanatec is active in many parts of the world and collaborating with huge players in the game (Microsoft, Sony etc.). My company is also collaborating with big players in the audio field across the European continent. In order to be able to produce and sell high-tech products one needs to get highly specialized employees which are not easy to find and "expensive", very "expensive". I don't like the word expensive when talking employees because I see it as an investment, but they come with a non negligible cost. Also consider tooling for R&D and prototyping. Actually R&D has a very high costs in our days.

Take total revenue minus total expenses like highly specialized engineers (hardware and software) and respective tooling, industrial designer and respective tooling, licensing fees, sales and marketing, specialist in international laws, investments (past, actual and future), production of products (Asia still doesn't work for free, they even got more expensive in the last couple of years), customer service, management, dividends, taxes, etc.
Considering all that, 10-11 million Euro revenue for a company like Fanatec doesn't sound that huge from an entrepreneur point of view.

Let’s call it medium sized and agree to disagree

 

[Knukel]

I have the CSL Elite Xbox and mine is always perfectly centered.I regularly check it with a level

Have you used it on console? I think my issue is somehow related to PS4 calibration, after completion it's often max 45° off to right (which from my understanding is normal), but when i start AC or GT Sport the virtual in-game wheel is sometimes that much off aswell, so i need to manually set center position (tuning menu/Start + X). Basically i need to readjust it at some point during every game sessions.
Yesterday i didn't have issues with GT Sport after first center readjust, but AC is constantly loosing center position only by few degrees (oddly never more than that), just wondering if it's a bug or what as T150 and G29 both have deadzones unlike the CSL, but they don't loose center in AC...
Hopefully this is understandable*

Edit: I haven't raced on PC, but I assume that CSL on PC is calibrated via Fanatec's control panel and all setups like center position are saved there... But on console Ps4, GT Sport or AC doesn't even have any sort of calibration menu... :/

 

[super_gt]

Have you used it on console?

No,PC only.

 

[Mirror_man]

Important Info!!

Just found out a new Driver and Firmware on Fanatec Syte : Driver Version 310!

 

[slthree]

No apologies needed for the general discussion shift. I think evaluating companies who take our money for a product is necessary.

Fanatec finally responded and have asked me to open an RMA and send the wheel back to"their shop" for repairs.

I was not happy with this request, for the obvious reason that I won't be able to use a wheel for an unknown amount of time.

And, when I spend nearly 700 dollars, my expectation (correct or not) is that a company would send me a new wheel/base and have me send the defective one back in the same box.

I asked them to do this and they refused. This was their reply:

Unfortunately it´s not possible to send you a new wheel base before you send in the defect one. We made too many bad experiences, I hope you can understand

This makes no sense to me because there are simple ways around it. They can "hold" the cost of the new wheel base until the defective one arrives. Upon arrival, they release the hold. If it doesn't arrive, they charge me.

So, they are trying to protect their bottom line but they are not trying to protect their reputation.

My inconvenience is not of concern to Fanatec.

Customer loyalty is not of concern to Fanatec.

Good word of mouth is not of concern to Fanatec

That they have my money in their Bank account: THAT'S what is of concern to Fanatec.

I can't speak of the customer service that other wheel manufacturers provide since this is the only wheel I've purchased that is defective.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on this subject. It has been quite frustrating.

 

[PocketZeven]

No apologies needed for the general discussion shift. I think evaluating companies who take our money for a product is necessary.

Fanatec finally responded and have asked me to open an RMA and send the wheel back to"their shop" for repairs.

I was not happy with this request, for the obvious reason that I won't be able to use a wheel for an unknown amount of time.

And, when I spend nearly 700 dollars, my expectation (correct or not) is that a company would send me a new wheel/base and have me send the defective one back in the same box.

I asked them to do this and they refused. This was their reply:

Unfortunately it´s not possible to send you a new wheel base before you send in the defect one. We made too many bad experiences, I hope you can understand

This makes no sense to me because there are simple ways around it. They can "hold" the cost of the new wheel base until the defective one arrives. Upon arrival, they release the hold. If it doesn't arrive, they charge me.

So, they are trying to protect their bottom line but they are not trying to protect their reputation.

My inconvenience is not of concern to Fanatec.

Customer loyalty is not of concern to Fanatec.

Good word of mouth is not of concern to Fanatec

That they have my money in their Bank account: THAT'S what is of concern to Fanatec.

I can't speak of the customer service that other wheel manufacturers provide since this is the only wheel I've purchased that is defective.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on this subject. It has been quite frustrating.

That is normal procedure though. In European law they can offer repair first. It is not required to replace it. Only if repair does not fix the issue x amount of times within warranty period, you can demand a new product or a money back. A workaround, if it is within 14 days, is to send it back and order a new one. If it is out of this period you just have to be patient.

I have been lucky with my tech purchases. Most of the time i just get a new product sent, in stead of repair.

 

[Knukel]

Yesterday Assetto Corsa on Ps4 worked fine for hours after couple center readjusts, but today i had to do it after every lap. No one else having same issue with AC on console, slight offset?
AC was released almost year before CSL Elite and it's wheel support is far from perfect altought FFB is good.

 

[Mirror_man]

Yesterday Assetto Corsa on Ps4 worked fine for hours after couple center readjusts, but today i had to do it after every lap. No one else having same issue with AC on console, slight offset?
AC was released almost year before CSL Elite and it's wheel support is far from perfect altought FFB is good.

Actually.. with fine tuning to The game and The wheel settings... you may get some improvment on GTS FFB...

Not as good as Assetto.. but still very reasonable...

Dare to try this:

My Best Settings
===========

a) On GTS config:

- Wheel turning sensitivity: 2 (you may try some variations between 1 and 3 depending on car and track...)
- FFB Torque: 9 !!! (may go to 10!!!! if you like to feel the steering a bit heavier)
- FFB sensitivity: 10

b) On Fanatec Wheel Config:
- Sen: 084 (variations from Automatic, until 72 depending on car and track...)
- FF: 100
- SHO:100
- ABS: OFF
- DRI: OFF (variations from -2 to + 2 depending on car, track and your taste/feeling)
- FOR: 020 (if you like an heavier feeling on the wheel raise to 30... Aditionally... you may also raise on GTS FFB Torque to 10... if you like it really heavy... of course...)
- SPR: 100
- DPR: 100
- BRF: Off (or 10)
- FEI: 090 (or... 100!!!! )

You´ll still feel some under steering vibration but if you keep FOR on 20 and GTS FFB on 9, it will not be unpleasant at all.. and you´ll see that it even helps you.. giving you an important information about the trajectory you are using...

(FANATEC CSL PS4 Base setup only with brake cell mode)

 

[seslab]

Let’s call it medium sized and agree to disagree

Agree on the disagreement

 

[seslab]

No apologies needed for the general discussion shift. I think evaluating companies who take our money for a product is necessary.

Fanatec finally responded and have asked me to open an RMA and send the wheel back to"their shop" for repairs.

I was not happy with this request, for the obvious reason that I won't be able to use a wheel for an unknown amount of time.

And, when I spend nearly 700 dollars, my expectation (correct or not) is that a company would send me a new wheel/base and have me send the defective one back in the same box.

I asked them to do this and they refused. This was their reply:

Unfortunately it´s not possible to send you a new wheel base before you send in the defect one. We made too many bad experiences, I hope you can understand

This makes no sense to me because there are simple ways around it. They can "hold" the cost of the new wheel base until the defective one arrives. Upon arrival, they release the hold. If it doesn't arrive, they charge me.

So, they are trying to protect their bottom line but they are not trying to protect their reputation.

My inconvenience is not of concern to Fanatec.

Customer loyalty is not of concern to Fanatec.

Good word of mouth is not of concern to Fanatec

That they have my money in their Bank account: THAT'S what is of concern to Fanatec.

I can't speak of the customer service that other wheel manufacturers provide since this is the only wheel I've purchased that is defective.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on this subject. It has been quite frustrating.

It's your right to be frustrated. However I think you're a bit hard with them. As mentioned by Pocketzeven, as long as they repair the faulty product, they are fine within warranty rules. They are already kind offering you to send you a new wheel right after reception of the faulty one.
Keep in mind that the more expensive a product is in sale, the more it costs the manufacturer to produce (except for some rare exceptions), resulting in a higher loss in case of a non return.
I fully understand that they block the shipment until reception of your wheel. Its not nice for a company of 19 employees to "run" behind people not sending back the product. I'm certain that you would do the same if you were in the same situation.
Don't know, and having way more resources, if Amazon would accept to send you a new 700 dollars product before receiving the old one. If so, you should maybe request a refund and order it over Amazon, this will cost you about 100 dollars more.

Be patient, get the new CSL and enjoy

 

[slthree]

They are already kind offering you to send you a new wheel right after reception of the faulty one.

They have NOT offered to send me a new wheel. They have said they will do nothing until i send it back to them.

And, if they did offer me a new wheel, it really wouldn't be "kind". It would be proper business and my legal right.

The wheel was defective the day it arrived. Defective products upon arrival get replaced, regardless of the size of the company.

If I had this wheel for a year or even 6 months and I experienced this problem, then yes, any effort in their part to help me night be considered "kind"

 

[PocketZeven]

They have NOT offered to send me a new wheel. They have said they will do nothing until i send it back to them.

And, if they did offer me a new wheel, it really wouldn't be "kind". It would be proper business and my legal right.

The wheel was defective the day it arrived. Defective products upon arrival get replaced, regardless of the size of the company.

If I had this wheel for a year or even 6 months and I experienced this problem, then yes, any effort in their part to help me night be considered "kind"

I feel for you man. But according to European law they are well in their rights to offer repair first at no extra cost for the consumer, within a reasonable timeframe. Shipping for repair should be covered. They are not required to exchange a faulty product (although in practice this is done regularly). If they fail to do so, they are required to give you a full refund.

But if you are not satisfied with this service I suggest just to return the faulty wheel for a refund. It sucks to be without a wheel. That’s why I have my Logitech in storage as backup. And I know for a fact a lot simracers always have a backup laying around.


Edit: this is also if a product is faulty on reception by the way

 

[seslab]

I feel for you man. But according to European law they are well in their rights to offer repair first at no extra cost for the consumer, within a reasonable timeframe. Shipping for repair should be covered. They are not required to exchange a faulty product (although in practice this is done regularly). If they fail to do so, they are required to give you a full refund.

But if you are not satisfied with this service I suggest just to return the faulty wheel for a refund. It sucks to be without a wheel. That’s why I have my Logitech in storage as backup. And I know for a fact a lot simracers always have a backup laying around.


Edit: this is also if a product is faulty on reception by the way

I give up

 

[slthree]

I am in the process of learning how things are done in Europe as I live here in the United States, the home of Capitalism.

My original disappointment was lack of communication but now I have someone at Fanatec who is emailing back and forth with me. I appreciate that. Just good communication goes a long way to easing a person's frustration.

I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[PocketZeven]

I am in the process of learning how things are done in Europe as I live here in the United States, the home of Capitalism.

My original disappointment was lack of communication but now I have someone at Fanatec who is emailing back and forth with me. I appreciate that. Just good communication goes a long way to easing a person's frustration.

I'll keep you guys updated.

Not sure what capitalism has to do with it. But happy you have “cooled off” now.

 

[Knukel]

Delete

 

[ano313]

I have also these issues with my csl elite wheel. It loses calibration during race. It started after 6months of usage. I send it back to germany. They gave me new rim(old had downshift problems) and did nothing to wheelbase because they could not replicate this situtation. I still have broken wheelbase and haven't been racing for months. How can you race when you fail 2/4 races because of your wheel? 700€ well spent.

 

[Knukel]

and did nothing to wheelbase because they could not replicate this situtation. I still have broken wheelbase and haven't been racing for months. How can you race when you fail 2/4 races because of your wheel? 700€ well spent.

When does it occur during the race average and by how many degrees?
If it started after 6 months of using i'd expect it to get worse and worse; so i quess you could continue using it and contact them again soon with a video as you have warranty left... I believe they already suggested using canned air and different firmwares?

You wrote "45-90 degrees"..: Well that's obvious issue. I returned my 3rd base with the issue of "internal play/clanking" that occurs with stronger FFB over surface detail = constant loud knocking when driving straight even with FEI 0 (can be shown with 10sec video)... Funnily they just told to lower FEI while their own recommended settings for games are or 2-3 steps higher than what i ever used with earlier decentering wheelbases and 6-7 steps higher than what i can currently use without the rattle braking my wheel in normal driving... They just washed their hands out of the issue.