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Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by eKretz, Feb 21, 2013.
will this motor work in the csr elite ?.
Buhler Process Motor Assembly Phaser 860 147-0114-00
Steve, those are the motors I am using, but you'd need two and you need to modify the stock parts in order to use them. Specifically the motor mount pilots are larger (Bühler is ~.709") the mounting bolt circle dia is slightly larger, and the motor shafts are larger in dia also. (Fana-Buchi = .125"; Bühler = .158"), so you need to bore or ream the pulley ID's to fit. Also the can is larger in dia. so the OE heat sinks won't fit, and the motors are also considerably longer. I removed the encoders and cut the motor shafts down flush with the endbells so I can fit them in without having to leave the back cover off or move it too much.
RacerXX I have a spare Bühler I can take apart if that would be something you'd be interested in seeing. When I ordered my KB's one arrived damaged so they sent a replacement, leaving me with a damaged spare.
I think if you were to investigate a bit closer you might find that you are getting that aeration, it's pretty much unavoidable unless you can eliminate air from the shock body reservoir. I used to try filling my shocks under the surface in a shallow container of shock oil, but this is no good either, because the oil is obviously effectively incompressible and leaves the shock unable to compress, since as the shaft enters the shock it tries to fill space that isn't available. That's why a lot of dampers this size/type have little rubber caps in the shape of an inverted hemisphere, so you have an air gap behind it that it flexes into as the damper shaft enters the housing. The problem is these never seem to function correctly and almost always leave an air gap after the first compression, which gives you air entrapment pretty rapidly. About the only way to eliminate this is with a gas spring/piston at the top of the shock body like in "real" suspensions i.e. motocross bikes, trophy trucks, etc.
And of course the oil going through the piston will cavitate with rapid movements.
Pictures of my Elite in bits waiting for its new motor block to arrive from fanatic.
Steve, pics are dead.
RacerXX, here's a shot of the defective motor's guts. Found out why it was grinding, had a cracked magnet. The windings are .0113" wire (.29mm) or 29 AWG; VS. the Fana-Buchi's .0089" wire (.22mm) or 31 AWG. I didnt tear up the B armature to count windings, I want to keep it as a spare. Also interesting, the B motors have serrated brushes.
RacerXX do you have any shots of gutted Fana-Buchis? I highly doubt that Bühler will get specific on grade of wire, but one never knows. I think the magnets used in most good electric motors are pretty resistant to temp. Neodymium magnets would be awesome for their strength but very heat-sensitive. I would love to get ahold of some and just use water cooling though.
Well silicone fluid itself absorbs air. That is part of why it flopped as a brake fluid except for museum cars. You can bleed all you want but some air is within the fluid. Soft pedal doom, haha.
That's all fine, what I am saying is that I wound up with NO lag in damping action. You cannot notice any with your hand never mind your feet. And that part of doing that was to have the piston living under all the fluid. As opposed to having the piston live where the air winds up collecting. The stock damper mounting position is just asking for trouble IMO.
Well, I did a little investigating and comparison between the Fana-Buchis and the Killer Bees while I'm watching the rugrat. Here are my findings:
Here is a photo of the gutted Fana-Buchi:
Here's a comparison of the magnets, Buhler on top, Buchi on bottom:
Two things of note here: The radius on the Buchi magnets are not even close to matching the armature, while the Buhler is a perfect match at the OE gap. There isn't much room on the Buhler to move the magnet closer to the armature, while there is some room on the Buchi...at least in the center at its closest point.
Also, the comms are clearly crap on the Buchi, it looks like they are made of some soldered on junk, coated with a very thin plating of copper. This isn't visible in the photo because I forgot to remove the micarta washer. The Buhler on the other hand has a good thick layer of copper on the comm.
Here's a comparison shot of the two armatures, Buhler on top:
The difference in brush contact is pretty clear here, I was surprised to see that the Buchis also had serrated brushes, however they are very short and non-replaceable whereas the Bees have nice long, replaceable shunted brushes with replaceable springs so spring pressure could be tuned.
Here are the brushes, Buhler on top, Buchi underneath:
And last, the difference in the thickness of the cans, you can see why the Buhler doesn't need a flux ring:
I don't know about everybody else, but IMO Fanatec should be ashamed of themselves putting such crappy motors in such an otherwise awesome product. I think they should talk to Buhler, since they are both German companies, and Buhler has an awesome rep for quality.
I just checked out how much the FFB drops on a stock CSW wheel for the guys who don't believe it. I ran GT5 with the x2010 at the Nurb for about a 1/2 hr. Before I started I fish scaled the rim up against the stop @ sens 90 (which is max wheel strength) and got 12 lbs. with the USB unplugged. Then I raced for 1/2 hour and unplugged the USB and fish scaled it again against the stop @ sens 90. 6 lbs. I was racing with sens of 640 and all other settings on base values or lower, i.e. Spr 100, Dpr 50, For 100. So as you can see, it's happening, whether you feel it or not, or want to admit it or not.
Also, forgot to add: I don't have GT5's FFB settings maxed in-game either, it's set at 8, simulation, power steering off.
Thanks for taking the time to post these pics and info, having owned various Fanatec wheels and now a T500 its very interesting.
Just a suggestion, since the comparison between the two motors is not modding, you might generate a good deal of interest by making a comparison thread.
I am sure there are quite a few members of the community that would be interested in seeing this.
It might get overlooked in here by some not interested in modding their $600 toys.
Here is my Elite in bits waiting for its new motor block to arrive from fanatic.<a href="http://s215.beta.photobucket.com/user/steve30b/media/crs%20elite/80E4DABD-58C2-4ED3-A69B-D073959F86B2-680-0000007D47287D2F_zps4c6c7359.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/steve30b/crs%20elite/80E4DABD-58C2-4ED3-A69B-D073959F86B2-680-0000007D47287D2F_zps4c6c7359.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 80E4DABD-58C2-4ED3-A69B-D073959F86B2-680-0000007D47287D2F_zps4c6c7359.jpg"/></a>
Great pictures Steve30,
May ask why Fanatec send you new motors instead of swapping the entire wheel ?
Thanks for the reply Eric. Is the power 24dc for the stock motors ?,
Any chance you could put up a link to a online store to purchase a pair of motors that you use in your wheel. Cheers.
I dont know to be honest, my Crs Elite became very grindy and jerky so i Emailed Fanatc and they said i could send the wheel back for repair or they would send a new motor block for me to fit myself. Just hope the new motors have been updated because the old ones have only lasted 3 months.
It does say on the invoice that they are V2 motors.
RacerXX, please tell me that you drive abominably! It just wouldn't seem fair otherwise, given your expertise with modding your gear.
Very inspiring though, I only recently found some very cheap csp v1s and will be adding damper and working on my own degressive clutch mechanism. That just gets me up to "the Joneses", but will be eagerly trying to learn more from you guys here. Would love to eventually brave some motor mods and such.
I tip my hat.
RacerXX, I have a question regarding your maxed wheel. When you're running overvolted for the most power, do you have any problems with the wheel in a straight line? Oscillation-wise, I mean? (i.e. headshakes, tankslappers, etc.) I found in my test yesterday with GT5 and the x2010 at the 'Ring that during the first lap or two, before the FFB dropped, I got some awful oscillations on the straights. I hate running deadzone so I ran a pretty high sens setting to decrease it. I normally like to run between 270-360 steering lock, but it was pretty much undriveable that way on that car/track even at the 12 lb. stock strength.
If you do get them, what's your approach to dial them out?
Jogo, I'm not sure where it would belong if not a modding thread, since I am comparing the stock motors against the ones I am modding the wheel with. If you want to create a thread linking to the photos you are welcome to.
Steve, yes, the stock motors are driven at 24VDC. Here's where I got mine, but looks like they only have 1 left. Great price though.
Keep your eyes out on eBay and other surplus sites if you are interested in trying them, they do show up from time to time, usually 1 or 2 times a month.
I thought about this also. I am half-tempted to reverse the pulleys so the drive is right up against the bracket and mod the other end to match. Haven't checked if there's room yet though. One could also cut extra grooves in the existing pulleys or make new ones. In reality, Fanatec should make the switch to ball-bearing motors and call it a revision. I still can't believe they switched from synchronous belts to poly-v and didn't use ball-bearing motors. Major oversight.
BTW, Steve, what brand of hex wrenches are visible in your photo, they look nice. Wiha maybe? Those are my favorite, but I've never seen a set arranged nicely in a case like that.
Will any of you be offering this service to me if and when my Fanatec CSW and Elite bite the dust? I'm sure that's what lots of us want to know. Many of us are electronically challenged. It would be of great service to the community and you can make some money. Win win.
Yep I'm looking forward to this as well! a package of motors and brackets and maybe pulleys to aid us in modding and maybe overvolting. Please make this a product to sell. It will bring our wheels closer to ecci and frex territory and hopefully curb the need to upgrade to an expensive bodnar wheel.
Well, the tough part will be the cooling. It's a little harder to offer that as a package, and other than motor durability, that's one of the most important parts, since it prevents the loss of power. If there is a lot of interest I'm sure a package could be worked out. I worked with a lot of machine shops, electric motor shops, and fab shops, so I know where to find good pricing. A full package of upgrades wouldn't be cheap though, you'd need motors, a better power supply, probably belt and pulley mods, and cooling apparatus. It'd probably run higher than an ARC G27 package. Of course, you could always do it little by little or with cheaper motors. My first suggestion to anyone would be cooling mods, then ball bearing motors, then if necessary worry about different power supplies and belt mods.