Ferrari P80/C is a One-Off Ode to its Racing Car Past

[Danoff]

You should head over to the opinions section for this discussion. I'll keep it (semi) car-related here.

When you get into the billions of wealth, the lack of movement in that money is extremely detrimental to the world as a whole.
...
(as an aside, look into the "velocity of money" for more info on why this is a problem)

So... if someone doesn't spend their money, prices go up? So like, if I keep my money instead of buying something, the price of that thing goes up? So like, for example, if demand for a product goes down, and supply remains the same because people aren't buying, then that causes prices to... go up?

As an example, my first real full time job paid me $27000/year. That's a step up from the job I had as a car detailer, which paid $20,000 a year. A nice house was about $120,000. So, lets say I had a little extra and we round up to $30,000 (for easier math). House to Income is 4:1. The same kind of house now, in that same city, is about $$480,000, so that same "first job" should be paying $120,000 a year. If we use my crummy car cleaner job as a reference, houses were 6:1, so that crummy job as a car detailer should now pay $80,000 a year. ($480,000/6). However, that car detailer job is now a minimum wage job and pays, wait for it, just over $20,000 a year (30 years later).

What's worse, those house prices are also not reflective of a free market, but they are high because of, again, of the ultra wealthy. Toronto, like Vancouver, is a haven for sequestering money. Foreign buyers were bidding up to a $1million over asking for properties. That drove up prices in Toronto, driving people out of the city and driving up prices in the suburbs, the people from those cities, had to buy houses in further outlying suburbs, etc, etc. This is happening is many places around the world.

Wait, hang on. I thought prices were supposed to go up when people weren't buying stuff. Now you're saying prices rise when they are buying stuff. It's almost as though the housing market is its own market, that like... doesn't care about changes in price without regard to salaries or how much other things cost. So like, for example, the price of housing could outpace salary growth. But that would only happen if there was a lot of demand and limited supply. But then if that were true, you'd expect to see housing prices rise in like heavily populated areas...

This dude is in real estate in Hong Kong. Properties there cost more than (US)$1500 per square foot. So, something the size of a jail cell is about $75000. It hasn't become this way because of a normal free market.

It does!

So, back to the mustang, it's not the Mustang that got more expensive.

It didn't?

It's the labor that keeps getting cheaper,

Which labor? Automotive manufacturing? The price of the car and the price of the labor to produce it is mostly driven over this time period by inflation.

and where there used to be labor laws (and taxes) that kept those billions circulating in world economies, that actually protected the basis of healthy capitalism, the lax policies labor and taxation allow billions to be sequestered. On top of that, since the wealthy get wealthier, the price that the market will bear on luxury items, such as a Shelby GT350, go up. The gap just keeps spreading.

So are they sequestering it or are they buying luxury items? Does not buying things make prices go up or down? Getting back to the mustang here are people buying them or not? Does that make the price go up or down? And what does that have to do with the guy who buys the Ferrari again? When he sequesters his money by buying a Ferrari (which is self-contradictory but ok) this... raises the price of the mustang? Specifically Ferrari says to Ford "hey, so this guy is willing to spend lots of money on our car, so that means even though he didn't buy your car you should probably jack your rates".

I can see why you're upset with him, over mustang prices, because of his Ferrari purchase.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You should head over to the opinions section for this discussion. I'll keep it (semi) car-related here.



So... if someone doesn't spend their money, prices go up? So like, if I keep my money instead of buying something, the price of that thing goes up? So like, for example, if demand for a product goes down, and supply remains the same because people aren't buying, then that causes prices to... go up?

No, but think of it in terms of a dance club.

So, let's say a 1000 regular people go to a bar and they all buy 1 drink. 1000 drinks are sold.

Let now say that instead of that 1000 people, 1 billionaire goes. He also buys 1 drink. Sucks for the bar, no? It won't be able to survive.

Unless...he goes to all the other bar owners and says, listen, we are all getting the same 1 billionaire customer. If we all charge 10000 times more for our drinks, we can all stay in business AND make more money.

OPEC is a cartel that keeps the price of oil artificially high, that's why there are so many ultra wealthy oil families.

Then, there's price fixing happening in plenty of other markets. The Weston family here in Canada, who own the largest chain of grocery stores and a bread making company, were found to have colluded with bread makers to keep the price of bread artificially high. The same is happening with Canadian telecoms. The prices we pay are not reflective of a free competitive market. We pay the prices demanded by everyone offering something for sale, ergo, we either pay or don't buy at all.

It's happening all over at the moment. There's less money to go around, so instead of prices dropping because people can't afford those prices, prices are often increasing through price fixing. It's the exact opposite of a free market. It's unsustainable.

Wait, hang on. I thought prices were supposed to go up when people weren't buying stuff. Now you're saying prices rise when they are buying stuff. It's almost as though the housing market is its own market, that like... changes in price without regard to salaries or how much other things cost. So like, for example, the price of housing could outpace salary growth. But that would only happen if there was a lot of demand and limited supply. But then if that were true, you'd expect to see housing prices rise in like heavily populated areas...

The value of real estate in many parts of the world right now is artificially high. That goes for both rent and purchase. It's not reflective of the local economy as it should be. So, what we are seeing right now, is that people have the choice of two evils. They pay high rents, where all of their money is thrown out the window, or they pay high purchase prices, where some of their money is thrown out the window.

This comes from private banks being able to print their own money based on the purchase price of the house. So, instead of you going into a bank and asking "is this house worth the mortgage?" and the bank say no, quite often the bank says "yes, because you just bought it for that price".

This is how the dreaded trickle down economics actually works. If some billionaire buys property in Toronto for far more than it's actually worth, all property values go up more than they are actually worth. There's still demand, but rather than paying a price the market can bear, the market is paying prices that it really can't bear, leading to an inability to spend money elsewhere.

Yes, price should go up in places where there is demand, but that demand is out of whack. My home town is a great example. in 2014 (before the foreign buyers tax) my father passed away and my mother sold the house for $438,000. It's an old steel town with (literally) next to no jobs and no damn good reason to live there except that is was cheaper than other places. In the following years, there was a foreign investment explosion in Toronto. My parents house, 2 hours commute to Toronto, resold 2 years later for over $800,000.


Remember 2008? Ya, that's coming again. Maybe worse.

Which labor? Automotive manufacturing? The price of the car and the price of the labor to produce it is mostly driven over this time period by inflation.

Also, Ford shipped a bunch of jobs to Mexico for $2 an hour. That new free trade deal, in part, forced Mexico to enforce a minimum $16 an hour wage for auto workers, which is still super cheap in comparison to the U.S. and Canada.

When they were building pickups for $2 an hour, did the price of the Mexican built cars drop by 1/4?

As for the cost of my Mustang, I did say "relative". I paid over $22,000 in 1986 for my 5.0 GT. A new on is just shy of $40,000 now. So, comparatively, it not quite doubled in price. At the same time, houses have quadrupled. At the same time, the job that paid for that car has stayed the same.

Cool thread on auto worker wages for comparison -> https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?14529-automotive-wage-history

So are they sequestering it or are they buying luxury items? Does not buying things make prices go up or down? Getting back to the mustang here are people buying them or not? Does that make the price go up or down? And what does that have to do with the guy who buys the Ferrari again? When he sequesters his money by buying a Ferrari (which is self-contradictory but ok) this... raises the price of the mustang? Specifically Ferrari says to Ford "hey, so this guy is willing to spend lots of money on our car, so that means even though he didn't buy your car you should probably jack your rates".

I can see why you're upset with him, over mustang prices, because of his Ferrari purchase.

Sequestering means the money isn't flowing. Rather than the money being in thousands of pockets being spent on thousands of things, it's stagnating. But, the prices are being artificially created.

One wonderful game some of these guys like to play is selling properties back and forth among themselves. As above, the value of the property is arbitrary since the bank will make the money to cover it. So, this dude buys an apartment building for, let's say. $10 million. He then sells it to another guy in 3 years for $20 million. That second guy sells it again in in 3 years for $30 million. etc. The banks just keep rolling the money over. It's a game of "who's turn is it to earn $10 million dollars?".

In Vancouver, realtors were doing deal assignments with folks like this. There was an example where a property was sold for $1.5 million. Before the closing date the buyer assigned the sale to someone else for $1.8 million, that person in turn assigned it to another for an $2.3 million. Within a month, that property went from being $1.5 million to $2.3 million. It was all bogus value. It would have kept rolling if they hadn't found someone who chose to just hang to it for a bit.

If this were a simple topic, the mob hangings would be happening as we speak.

Here's a great video on the topic. https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming


I'm checking out on this now because this has COMPLETELY gone down a path I never intended.

 

[McLaren]

But, on the car, I'd be more excited about it if it were a limited production item, like the FXX, FXXK, etc. As a custom one off for a billionaire, especially in light of the events, it seems tainted to me. The F40, F50, Enzo, etc., were all celebrations of speed and all the Ferrari embodies. This thing is a celebration of all that is wrong with the world.

Your argument loses all logic here.

“Guy commishes 1-off Ferrari and is a celebration of what’s wrong with the world.”

“It’d be better if it was a $5 million+ FXXK.”

 

[Danoff]

No, but think of it in terms of a dance club.

So, let's say a 1000 regular people go to a bar and they all buy 1 drink. 1000 drinks are sold.

Let now say that instead of that 1000 people, 1 billionaire goes. He also buys 1 drink. Sucks for the bar, no? It won't be able to survive.

Unless...he goes to all the other bar owners and says, listen, we are all getting the same 1 billionaire customer. If we all charge 10000 times more for our drinks, we can all stay in business AND make more money.

OPEC is a cartel that keeps the price of oil artificially high, that's why there are so many ultra wealthy oil families.

Then, there's price fixing happening in plenty of other markets. The Weston family here in Canada, who own the largest chain of grocery stores and a bread making company, were found to have colluded with bread makers to keep the price of bread artificially high. The same is happening with Canadian telecoms. The prices we pay are not reflective of a free competitive market. We pay the prices demanded by everyone offering something for sale, ergo, we either pay or don't buy at all.

It's happening all over at the moment. There's less money to go around, so instead of prices dropping because people can't afford those prices, prices are often increasing through price fixing. It's the exact opposite of a free market. It's unsustainable.

Ok so... Ford and Ferrari are a cartel now? And because this guy bought the Ferrari, the cartel will... jack the price of the mustang? What?!?

The value of real estate in many parts of the world right now is artificially high. That goes for both rent and purchase. It's not reflective of the local economy as it should be. So, what we are seeing right now, is that people have the choice of two evils. They pay high rents, where all of their money is thrown out the window, or they pay high purchase prices, where some of their money is thrown out the window.

This comes from private banks being able to print their own money based on the purchase price of the house. So, instead of you going into a bank and asking "is this house worth the mortgage?" and the bank say no, quite often the bank says "yes, because you just bought it for that price".

This is how the dreaded trickle down economics actually works. If some billionaire buys property in Toronto for far more than it's actually worth, all property values go up more than they are actually worth. There's still demand, but rather than paying a price the market can bear, the market is paying prices that it really can't bear, leading to an inability to spend money elsewhere.

Yes, price should go up in places where there is demand, but that demand is out of whack. My home town is a great example. in 2014 (before the foreign buyers tax) my father passed away and my mother sold the house for $438,000. It's an old steel town with (literally) next to no jobs and no damn good reason to live there except that is was cheaper than other places. In the following years, there was a foreign investment explosion in Toronto. My parents house, 2 hours commute to Toronto, resold 2 years later for over $800,000.


Remember 2008? Ya, that's coming again. Maybe worse.



Also, Ford shipped a bunch of jobs to Mexico for $2 an hour. That new free trade deal, in part, forced Mexico to enforce a minimum $16 an hour wage for auto workers, which is still super cheap in comparison to the U.S. and Canada.

When they were building pickups for $2 an hour, did the price of the Mexican built cars drop by 1/4?

As for the cost of my Mustang, I did say "relative". I paid over $22,000 in 1986 for my 5.0 GT. A new on is just shy of $40,000 now. So, comparatively, it not quite doubled in price. At the same time, houses have quadrupled. At the same time, the job that paid for that car has stayed the same.

Ok so Mexico then? So the problem is outsourcing? So the mustang has gotten wait... more expensive because Ford is outsourcing? I mean it has gotten more expensive, so you're saying that labor prices have been artificially kept low because those people are competing with labor from Mexico which is... bad... for... Americans... but not Mexicans.

So guy buys Ferrari in Hong Kong, and you're upset with Ford for outsourcing to Mexico?

Sequestering means the money isn't flowing. Rather than the money being in thousands of pockets being spent on thousands of things, it's stagnating. But, the prices are being artificially created.

Stagnating by being used to purchase things? Like Ferraris?

One wonderful game some of these guys like to play is selling properties back and forth among themselves. As above, the value of the property is arbitrary since the bank will make the money to cover it. So, this dude buys an apartment building for, let's say. $10 million. He then sells it to another guy in 3 years for $20 million. That second guy sells it again in in 3 years for $30 million. etc. The banks just keep rolling the money over. It's a game of "who's turn is it to earn $10 million dollars?".

In Vancouver, realtors were doing deal assignments with folks like this. There was an example where a property was sold for $1.5 million. Before the closing date the buyer assigned the sale to someone else for $1.8 million, that person in turn assigned it to another for an $2.3 million. Within a month, that property went from being $1.5 million to $2.3 million. It was all bogus value. It would have kept rolling if they hadn't found someone who chose to just hang to it for a bit.

Yea, as long as you can find someone to pay more than you did, you can sell what you bought for a profit. That doesn't strike me as surprising. But did this guy who bought the Ferrari do that? I mean obviously not with his Ferrari, because that's a one-off. I mean did he do that with Mustangs?

I'm checking out on this now because this has COMPLETELY gone down a path I never intended.

Just trying to understand your complaint about this guy.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Your argument loses all logic here.

“Guy commishes 1-off Ferrari and is a celebration of what’s wrong with the world.”

“It’d be better if it was a $5 million+ FXXK.”

Check the Nick Hanauer video

Anyway, to get this back on track, here's the video of that car's delivery to it's happy owner

 

[McLaren]

Check the Nick Hanauer video

Anyway, to get this back on track, here's the video of that car's delivery to it's happy owner

No, bc it doesn’t change what an asinine statement that was.

Oh wow, it looks like a Corvette? Gee, no one heard you the first 2 times you’ve said it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

No, bc it doesn’t change what an asinine statement that was.
.

If it were along the lines of an FXXK or something, it would have a series to go with it. They would be featured at races. More reason for people to go, spend money, etc, etc, etc. The overall economic impact of it would be higher. Look beyond the car itself.

 

[Danoff]

If it were along the lines of an FXXK or something, it would have a series to go with it. They would be featured at races. More reason for people to go, spend money, etc, etc, etc. The overall economic impact of it would be higher. Look beyond the car itself.

So wait, you're saying that if other people spend money on a race series, the car is more beneficial to the economy? Do you think those people would just not spend that money if they didn't spend it on the race series? And not spending money makes... wait... prices go up? So we need them to spend money on race series (instead of going to the movies or whatever) because spending money makes prices go down? Except in real estate?

So we don't like this car because of how people who didn't buy it choose to spend their money?

 

[TexRex]

Not really a complaint, but that roof line has a bit of Ford GT in it.

I get that. The way it flows from the top of the canopy and into the rear haunch, it resembles the top half of the GT's buttress area.

 

[McLaren]

If it were along the lines of an FXXK or something, it would have a series to go with it. They would be featured at races. More reason for people to go, spend money, etc, etc, etc. The overall economic impact of it would be higher. Look beyond the car itself.

The XX Programme isn’t a series. It’s a place for the billionaires you have issue with to spend money and see what kind of F1/Racing development Ferrari is working on. It’s not a public event you spend money to see.

Talking about things you clearly haven’t looked into.

 

[TexRex]

 

[TiMcF1]

I do see the 488 in it's design but also, weirdly, the fitapaldi EF7 pininifarina which is also just a track car concept. I think it's supposed to have a Ferrari v8 in it anyway.

 

[SebiGT89]

I like it, but it looks more like De Tomaso Pantera.

View attachment 809765

 

[kikie]

I want to win Euro Millions so badly to be able to buy a track car like this.