FIA races limited to real homologated race cars

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by 05XR8, May 10, 2019.

  1. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I feel the BOP is just about fair will all the current race cars. The most gripes I read about, are tyre wear advantages/disadvantages between all makes in Manufacturer events. Namely AWD & FF Gr.4 cars. PD modelling Gr.3/Gr.4 after GT3/GT4, although commendable, just isn't working for many FIA races. Many want to be either loyal to a brand they like or do like trying out something different for an FIA season. I wonder if the Manufacturer races should be limited to the real GT3/Gr.3 & GT4/Gr.4 type cars. Mainly FR & MR machines.

    This is not clear cut yes or no. Some like the thought of a Beetle "GT3" race version or a WRX "GT4". Others like the quirkiness of a full on race spec Peugeot VGT or an FF Megane, etc. When it comes to these FIA events(put the Daily races aside for the moment), it's a flawed program for many brands. For example: Some just want that GT-R GT3, but are "stuck" with an AWD GT-R Gr.4. May be quick at starts, fast on straights, but limited grip in long races.

    If, when we as players, go to sign an agreement, I feel choosing close to the real race cars, would make these events more evenly matched. Ferrari 458, AMG GT, Aston Martin Vantage, Lexus RC F, Porsche 911 RSR; Porsche Cayman GT4 Clubsport, BMW M4, Ford Mustang. McLaren 650S.

    Choosing only Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford, Ferrari, Honda, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Lexus, McLaren, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche, Toyota, may have been or could be the best option for fairness between the brands.
    Again, I understand what PD have done. It's cool to have your brand/team sorted with Big & little brother of the same make & (sometimes)model. However, it's seems to be getting increasingly frustrating for many players.
     
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  2. gtpierre

    gtpierre

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    Does Lamborghini have a GT4 car ? In which series?
     
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  3. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    No. There's no 458, GT-R, Veyron, RC F, NSX either.
     
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  4. gtpierre

    gtpierre

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    Right, so that would kinda kill the concept of a manufacturer series in GT sport right ?
    In the end the problem you mention, namely, tyre wear on fwd and 4wd vs rwd in FIA race could be solved just by reducing tyre wear and/or increasing fuel consumption.
    If tyre wear stops being the absolute limiting factor of a car performance in FIA races, it would remove a part of your problem right ?
    Otherwise, although not "realistic", I think the Gr4 is cool because it's really the category in which all the cars behave differently, and the different corner speed, grip, acceleration and braking make the races more interesting.
     
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  5. 05XR8

    05XR8

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  6. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Here's all of the manufacturers with real, homologated GT3 and GT4 cars in GT Sport:
    *

    Here's all of the manufacturers with close enough to real, homologated GT3 and GT4 cars in GT Sport:
    * Audi (R8 real; TT Cup close enough)
    * Aston Martin (V12 Vantage real; V8 Vantage close enough)
    * BMW (Z4/M6 real; M4 close enough)
    * Chevrolet (Corvette close enough in both classes)
    * Ford (GT close enough, Mustang close enough)
    * Porsche (911 RSR close enough, Cayman GT4 real)
    * Toyota (sort of)

    That's literally all of them. Toyota sneaks in with the GT86 being close enough (there's a real GT4 car) and the Lexus RC F GT3 being homologated by Toyota - perhaps the Supra will be a real GT3 next year.

    Most of the remaining manufacturers have one real car and one not real car (like Ferrari's real 458 GT3, but there's no GT4), or one close enough car and one not real car (Jaguar F-Type is close enough to the real GT4, but there's no GT3). There are a couple of brands which do have a real GT3 and a real GT4, but PD has given a not-real car instead of a real one (McLaren - 650S Gr4 instead of 570S GT4; Nissan - GT-R Gr4 instead of 350Z/370Z GT4).

    Porsche, Aston Martin and BMW are closest to a real pairing - there is a BMW M4 GT4 and a Vantage GT4, while the real 911 is a GTE (there's four GT3 homologated 911s, and the RSR isn't one of them).

    Ultimately it's not possible to run the FIA Manufacturer series with only real or close-to-real GT3/GT4 cars unless you want only six (and seven if you fudge it) manufacturers. Even if you added all of the real GT3 and real GT4 cars to the manufacturers GT Sport, there'd only be 11 manufacturers in total with both: Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Chevrolet, Ford, Maserati, McLaren, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche, and Toyota.


    However, your other point is more valid. There are no non-RWD SRO-homologated GT4 cars. The closest is the TT Cup, which is not a homologated GT4 car, but SRO did put it in for GT4 BOP calculations in 2016. I don't recall if the homologated 2010 TT GT4 was front or four-wheel drive like the road cars, or converted to rear drive - but the 2018 R8 GT4 was rear-wheel drive.

    That does mean that PD's BOP is having to shoehorn in 4WD, AWD and FWD cars like the NSX, Atenza, GT-R, RCZ, Huracan, and so on. And while they're not bad for average single lap pace, they're horrendous when it comes to tyre wear and just straight up uncompetitive. And tyre wear is the name of the FIAGTC game. Gr.4 is my favourite class of cars, but I simply can't afford to drive my Gr.4 Mazda in the FIA because I'll lose DR which means losing points for the next round.


    The solution to that isn't to get rid of the cars, but to have a more detailed BOP, like in the real world. Cars aren't balanced at the start of the season for the average of all tracks, they're balanced for each race. Single lap pace isn't the goal, whole race pace is. If someone is racing 11 laps of RBR with a slow car with heavy tyre wear so they have to pit and lose 22s, make the car 2s a lap faster - with more power and less weight to offset the increased wear of heavy braking and torque.
     
  7. Jeeves_ACBC

    Jeeves_ACBC

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    I think having FWD cars in GR4 was an attempt to merge a TCR style of cars with the GT4 category. Performance wise they are not too far off in real life race pace so it sorta makes sense.

    What I don't I understand is some of the model choices for each brand. For example, why Corvette Gr4 rather than an existing Camaro GT4? GTR Gr4 vs 370z GT4. Atenza Gr4 vs MX5 GT4. And so on. I suppose it has to do with licenses or something like that. But I do wish there was a bit more similarity to existing race cars when they have an option available
     
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  8. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I wholeheartedly agree. Thing is, with the MAnufacturer series, it locks players in. Nations doesn't do this. It could be the same in that I can choose a Gr.3 car from one manufacturer and choose a different brand for Gr.4. A player still represents a brand the season.
     
  9. Taxrik

    Taxrik

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    Jeeves - I agree about odd model choices sometimes. Ford has always confused me, I would have thought the Focus would make a good Gr4 car, similar to Touring car versions, rather than two Mustangs, add a bit of variety.
     
  10. Gordjy

    Gordjy

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    Althought i completely agree with @Famine , we knoe the BoPing for each race is just damn impossible for a game.

    Would be great but just a dream.
     
  11. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I half feel the Atenza harks back to the Atenza/Mazda6 TC(one of my favorites) from Gran Turismo 4. There are also a FWD and RWD Impreza, racing in TCR and BTCC, respectively.

    With such an array of cars, the Gr.4 class mirrors Super Taikyu more than anything.

    Gr.3 is much easier to manage. The Ford GT, Mustang GT and probably the F1, get their wings clipped or virtual "restrictor" plates inserted to slow them down. Trying to tune tyre wear is a whole other matter. I was thinking about the Gr.4 GT-R. It behaves more like it's road car brethren: RWD until slip is detected and power is sent to the front wheels.
    Atenza tyre wear still shows its FWD DNA even as an AWD touring car. Rear tyres on many cars don't wear that close to the fronts. RWD cars should be worse off, but that's not the case. TCS or not.
     
  12. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    I'm not totally sure of that.

    We know that PD uses AI drivers for penalty calculations - if you're registered as off track and in that mini-sector you beat an AI driver, you get a time penalty - so it could also use them for relative vehicle pace over a race distance. It wouldn't necessarily matter how fast they aren't, because you're looking at how quick the cars are compared to one another - and whether they need to stop for tyres or not. Even on one console, using the AI to test out every car and its tyre options, and then retesting the obviously uncompetitive with new BOP calculations shouldn't take up a full afternoon.
     
  13. hairless_ape

    hairless_ape

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    Nope, Toyota has stated that the Supra will be a GT500 (Gr.2) car only. The 86 will remain the GT300 (Gr.3) car.
     
  14. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    We're not talking about Super GT cars - they're neither GT3 or GT4, and not homologated as either.

    During 2018 and 2019, Toyota has revealed GT3 and GT4 concept versions of the GR Supra:
    https://www.gtplanet.net/toyota-supra-gt4-concept-race-car-to-debut-in-geneva/
    https://www.gtplanet.net/toyota-reveals-new-supra-racing-concept-coming-gt-sport-april/

    The latter of these is in Gran Turismo as a Gr.3 car, although it's more of a GTE - like the 911 RSR - than a GT3. If Toyota does suddenly have a hankering for FIA GT3 racing, it could submit a similar car for homologation in 2020, although it does have the RC F still as a homologated GT3 car.
     
  15. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Manufacturer Cup becomes more of a problem when "new" cars are introduced. This is why maybe scaling back(which isn't going to happen), may be better off for the Gr.3/Gr.4 series. Say, they were to add Bentley, KTM and Lotus. Players are then left with no choice for a GT3 or GT4 equivalent. This nearly forces PD to create a fantasy vehicle(like the Super GT300 Mother Chassis inspired WRX & Evo), which takes time. Or they just leave the brand out to only run in Nations(re; Bugatti).

    Having a limited amount of manufacturers, like real world Blancpain and British GT, simplifies the problem of catering to the players and trying tp balance ALL available cars in each Group.
     
  16. ShiftingGears

    ShiftingGears

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    It's worth sub dividing groups 1, 2, 3 and 4. Makes for different race dynamics.
     
  17. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    That would work similar to some real world series. Would be a nice change in Gr.4. Overall winner and winner of FWD, AWD and FR/MR.
     
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  18. ShiftingGears

    ShiftingGears

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    I would just have some races being Gr4 GT only, or hot hatches. There is no incentive to hamper yourself by selecting a car that limits your chances of victory, because for daily races the only stats that count are really wins.

    EDIT: To actually get multi-class racing working properly would be a significant effort from PD, I can't even think of how it would integrate with the rest of the driver stats currently.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  19. HashiriyaR32

    HashiriyaR32

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    I believe that even the group 4 version of the NSX is RWD rather than AWD.
     
  20. GTPorsche

    GTPorsche

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    Yeah, because it lacks the hybrid system that powers the front wheels.