First Look at HD-DVD Drive

[MustangSVT]

No, the 40" and 46" XBR2 and XBR3 are out, and have BEEN out for about 2 months now. They came out early August. The XBR2 is the same exact set as the XBR3, only the "Piano Black" framing on the XBR3 different.

I think you might be thinking of either the NEW 36" XBR2 or the 52" XBR2 & XBR3 that are coming out soon. The 40" and 46" have been out, with the 36" and 52" coming soon.

You're confusing my comments. I'm talking about the SXRD LCoS-rear projection XBR2 which is not out yet. In their SXRD rear projection, only the XBR1 and A2000 are out.

Anyway, none of this is really relevant as far as I'm concerned. If you have a modern 1080p, just feed it 1080i over component (which 360 can already do), and the TV will automatically de-interlace the signal to 1080p60, if the 360 3:2 pulldown to 1080i60 from 1080p24 just like the Toshiba HD-DVD player (which it should be able to do).

 

[Duke]

That isn't my intended way of having to post here. But if I don't do that, it seems things go all to hell. So, thats how it is.

IN MY OPINION.

There's a perfect variation of the smiley that I'd really like to use here, but the AUP forbids it.

 

[DuckRacer]

There's a perfect variation of the smiley that I'd really like to use here, but the AUP forbids it.

I didn't know there's variations of the smilie.

Oh well, I guess we all learn something new every day.

 

[LaBounti]

Still, Westinghouse 37" 1080p Is $1400. 40" for around $1700.... both 8ms.

360 is very capable of 1080p. But it makes the Edram usless...

Second Note the orginal Xbox did not have online play out of box at launch. Sony could apply anything they want in the future. Plus PS3 will be open to user made mods for games unlike the 360.

Still no one talks about HD DVD audio for the 360, But I guess it will be software decoding for.... ...oh wait there's no HDMI port, Nevermind 360 cant do Dolby True HD 7.1 or DTS-HD. But you can enjoy 1080p. So If you have the hardware you cant take advantage.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I'm talking about the SXRD LCoS-rear projection XBR2 which is not out yet. In their SXRD rear projection, only the XBR1 and A2000 are out.

Ummm....

Sony 1080p SXRD XBR2
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-T8ZZvkP3kIP/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&I=158SR70XB2
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4134325

just feed it 1080i over component, and the TV will automatically de-interlace the signal to 1080p60

If you de-interlace an Xbox game at 1080i, you will end up with 1080p/30, not 1080p/60. The 1080i interlaced signal from the Xbox is made up of 60 half-frames a second. So, combining those by de-interlacing only leaves you with 30 full-frames a second. But, since a 1080p set needs 60 full-frames a second, it will then just display each of those 30 frames 2 times.

That is why MS is big on 720p for most games. You have a pretty high resolution, and you have 60 full-frames a second. With 1080i, or 1080p/30, you do have a lot more resolution, but at half of the frames per second. Its give and take really.

Thats why Sony is making such a big deal about the 1080p the PS3 will do, because it will be outputing games at 1080p/60. So, you'll have full 1080 resolution, and 60 full-frames a second. After the update, the Xbox will be able to do this as well. Just need developers to start coding for it.

Hilg

 

[DuckRacer]

Nevermind 360 cant do Dolby True HD 7.1 or DTS-HD.

But also, that stuff is overkill. I mean, who has a sound system that supports that? I can't even do Dolby Digital.

 

[JNasty4G63]

There's a perfect variation of the smiley that I'd really like to use here, but the AUP forbids it.

Where is the "GET OVER IT ALREADY" smiley when you need it??? Because, IN MY OPINION, it would work great right about now.

Hilg

 

[JNasty4G63]

360 is very capable of 1080p. But it makes the Edram usless...

Explain please, because that makes no sense to me.

Second Note the orginal Xbox did not have online play out of box at launch.

Nor did Sony or Nintendo. They were all capable, but none had it. But, once MS started up Xbox Live, it quickly sorted itself out as a VERY good system for online play, IN MY OPINION. And, its only gotten better with the 360's use of Live, IN MY OPINION.

Plus PS3 will be open to user made mods for games unlike the 360.

I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, but can you prove that?? I've never heard anything like that. It would be cool if they did, but I've yet to read anything suggesting that.

...oh wait there's no HDMI port, Nevermind 360 cant do Dolby True HD 7.1 or DTS-HD.

Oh wait, there are no receivers with HDMI 1.3 inputs yet. Thus, there is nothing available yet that can even accept and decode TrueHD or DTS-HD. Sure, the PS3 will have HDMI 1.3 output, and be able to SEND these audio signals. But, unless you have a receiver capable of doing ANYTHING with it, its really useless.

Hilg

 

[MustangSVT]

"That is why MS is big on 720p for most games. You have a pretty high resolution, and you have 60 full-frames a second. With 1080i, or 1080p/30, you do have a lot more resolution, but at half of the frames per second. Its give and take really."

So how do you explain all those people with 1080p sets who are outputting 1080i over component and their set is de-interlacing the signal and they all say it looks fantastic?

And by the way, stop going off topic. I was talking about film-based material from the HD-DVD addon outputting at 1080i60 over component and doing the same thing that Toshiba HD-DVD player does. Not talking about games, talking about HD-DVD.

 

[LaBounti]

Explain please, because that makes no sense to me.

10mb of Embded ram is not near enough for 2mega pixel fill ratres.

Nor did Sony or Nintendo. They were all capable, but none had it. But, once MS started up Xbox Live, it quickly sorted itself out as a VERY good system for online play, IN MY OPINION. And, its only gotten better with the 360's use of Live, IN MY OPINION.

Basically Xbox had Live ready but not at launch, That one was not hard to figure out. So theres no reason to count out what Sony has in the future.

I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, but can you prove that?? I've never heard anything like that. It would be cool if they did, but I've yet to read anything suggesting that.

http://www.oceaniaut.com Scroll down took me all of 15 seconds to ifnd that link.

when it comes to online PS3 capabilities - one that will apparently allow Epic's users to create Unreal Tournament 2007 levels and content on the PC, and distribute them via the PlayStation 3.

We would love to transfer this mod community over to the console platforms." Of course you'll need a PC to create levels for the upcoming UT2007 for PS3/PC

Oh wait, there are no receivers with HDMI 1.3 inputs yet. Thus, there is nothing available yet that can even accept and decode TrueHD or DTS-HD. Sure, the PS3 will have HDMI 1.3 output, and be able to SEND these audio signals. But, unless you have a receiver capable of doing ANYTHING with it, its really useless.

Hilg

So because something's not available right now means the future means nothing then? Also tell the manufatures of Stand alone HD DVD players that. at least PS3 "supports" it.

Happy?

HD audio falls right into the same bag as 1080p. My only point is no one talks about it. For the longest Xbox fans have laughed at sony for not having 5.1 surround. Now Sony may be overcompensating for all the Ps2's hardware short comings.

 

[JNasty4G63]

So how do you explain all those people with 1080p sets who are outputting 1080i over component and their set is de-interlacing the signal and they all say it looks fantastic?

You'll have to ask them. What someone considers "fantastic" is up to them, not me. Not sure what I have to do with their opinion.

And by the way, stop going off topic.

Um, I think we are still very much on topic. This drive, and its related "dashboard" update for 1080p, is the discussion currently. Thats what I'm talking about.

I was talking about film-based material from the HD-DVD addon outputting at 1080i60 over component and doing the same thing that Toshiba HD-DVD player does. Not talking about games, talking about HD-DVD.

Still doesn't matter. If you have 1080p/24 or you have 1080i/60, you can't deinterlace that material and get 1080p/60. For something to be 1080p/60, there has to be 60 different full-frames of video. And, as I said, if you deinterlace 1080i/60, you will only end up with 1080p/30. Same goes for 1080p/24, which obviously only has 24 full-frames.

The only devices currently available, or soon to be available, that can output TRUE 1080p/60 are PCs and the PS3 and Xbox (once it gets the update). Those devices are very much capable of outputing 1080p/60 to a display that will accept it. But, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray movies are all encoded at 1080p/24. So, even if your set will display 1080p/60, moveis on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't have 60 full-frames to start with, so your set just can't be sent that many frames from those players.

Hilg

 

[JNasty4G63]

10mb of Embded ram is not near enough for 2mega pixel fill ratres.

Not true at all. The size of the DRAM isn't really the issue. It would be the bandwidth between DRAM and GPU, of which they have 256GB/s. That number is the key, and it very much is capable of 1080p/60 fill.

Because of the extremely large amount of bandwidth available both between the parent and daughter die as well as between the embedded DRAM and its FPUs, multi-sample AA is essentially free at 720p and 1080p in the Xbox 360. If you're wondering why Microsoft is insisting that all games will have AA enabled, this is why.

ATI did clarify that although Microsoft isn't targetting 1080p (1920 x 1080) as a resolution for games, their GPU would be able to handle the resolution with 4X AA enabled at no performance penalty.

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2423&p=1

Thats from ATI themselves, so I think they know what they're talking about. Not only is 1080p possible, but its possible with 4X anti-aliasing enabled.

Scroll down took me all of 15 seconds to ifnd that link.

Ok, so they are going to allow people to make mods for Unreal. Thats nice, and I'm sure there will be a decent ammount of people take advantage of that. But, its only one game. Not EVERY game. They said nothing about doing this for all games.

And, as was said in that link, with MS recent opening up of the XNA program, they can VERY easilly start to allow this same type of thing. They haven't said they will, but if this turns out to be popular on the PS3 with Unreal, there is very little stopping MS from doing the same.

So because something's not available right now means the future means nothing then?

I didn't say it wasn't a nice feature to have. I'm just saying, having TrueHD and DTS-HD output available from the console is all well and good. But, until something can do anything with it, its wasted. And, there are no HDMI 1.3 displays or receivers out yet that can do anything with it. Its like having a car with no streets to drive on. Sure, its capable of getting you around. But, until you have something to drive on, its not really helping.

Both of those formats are VERY nice, and will be nice additions to a good home theater. But, considering there aren't any capable devices even available yet, it will take some time until they are even remotely common. And just like Dolby Digital was when it first arrived, receivers capable of decoding those formats will not be cheap for some time.

So again, it most certainly IS a nice feature to have. Its just a feature that is going to go unused by 99% of PS3 owners for quite some time, IN MY OPINION

Hilg

 

[DuckRacer]

So again, it most certainly IS a nice feature to have. Its just a feature that is going to go unused by 99% of PS3 owners for quite some time, IN MY OPINION

...But when that time comes, which IMO will probably happen in the lifespan of the PS3, many people will be taking advantage of that.

 

[JNasty4G63]

...But when that time comes, which IMO will probably happen in the lifespan of the PS3, many people will be taking advantage of that.

Oh, very true. Given that the PS3 will probably have a "current" lifespan stretching to 2011 or 2012, there is a lot of time for HDMI 1.3 capable receivers to first show up, and then drop in price. That will help those thing become more widespread. And, there is no doubt in my mind that closer to the end of the PS3's lifespan, those 2 formats will probably be "the norm" for movie surround. But, like I said before, it will be a feature that many, MANY users will not be using fore quite some time, if at all.

Hilg

 

[LaBounti]

Ms's Xbox Live is closed network, you can not access anything out side of Xbox live. All content is controlled be Microsoft. They would have to open their network in some way shape or form or enble another way for users to download content. That Statment about UT2007 was recent about a game still far off from release. Other games could follow. Sony already anounced using the ps3 web browser to download content right off the interent to be used in games. What a Developer does with their game is up to them as far as mods. Its the possiblity.

It was also Microsoft who said 1080p was impossible for games. So what are you gonna beleive. But according to the link from may 2005 it requires some tricks to use 1080p with 4xAA with the EDram. How many 720p game use 4xaa? Few games even use high quality anisotrpic filtering. Oblivion. PGR3, GRAW, Full Auto, Madden 06, 07. All EA games pretty much all use xbox like anisotropic filtering, looks more like tri leaner filtering.

There are some nice arguements about the topic here http://www.xboxyde.com/forum_8_14648_1_en.html

 

[JNasty4G63]

They would have to open their network in some way shape or form or enble another way for users to download content.

Hence the XNA program. Read up on XNA, and you will see that users developing mods for games is not at all out of the question.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/XNA/default.aspx

What a Developer does with their game is up to them as far as mods. Its the possiblity.

Exactly. And, with the XNA program, MS has now made it very easy to do this, if they do want to make the change and allow these. Its a possibility on both sides.

It was also Microsoft who said 1080p was impossible for games. So what are you gonna beleive.

Show me one official statement from MS that says the XBox 360 can not produce 1080p games. I'd love to see it. Their marketing departments can say a lot of things. But, when the company that makes the graphics hardware for the system says its possible, I'll tend to believe them, IN MY OPINION.

But according to the link from may 2005 it requires some tricks to use 1080p with 4xAA with the EDram. How many 720p game use 4xaa?

Every console has "tricks" used to produce the images. Regardless of how they spilit the frames up with the different buffers, the hardware itself is perfectly capable of rendering a full 1080p image, and with 4X AA if need be.

And almost all Xbox games, as far as I know, use at least 2xAA, with a good number using 4xAA. Granted, 2xAA isn't much, but it helps. Some of those that I've heard using 4xAA are Oblivion, GRAW, DOA4, Moto GP, Saints Row, Fight Night, Kameo, to name a few. So, no, not all are using it. But, it is available.

Hilg

 

[MustangSVT]

I find it hard to believe that Oblivion and GRAW use 4xAA. Maybe Fight Night 3 and Kameo, but Oblivion and GRAW only use like 2xAA if not any at all, at least from my perception anyway, and not incompetent in any way, I know what AA looks like, I'm very picky about quality and my TV is pretty good.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I find it hard to believe that Oblivion and GRAW use 4xAA.

Well, I know for sure that Oblivion uses SOME ammount of AA. That was one of the big issues people had when the game first shipped on PC. If you played the game on the XBox, it would play with both HDR and AA at the same time. But, on PC, when the game first shipped, you could only use one or the other. They've since released a patch to enable both. But, it was widely talked about when the game first shipped that the XBox was using both.

GRAW, from what I read, uses 4xAA in single player, because it uses the updated GR engine. But, multiplayer uses no AA because it is using a modified version of the older GR engine. So, it sort of does. But, in single player, it very much does.

Hilg

 

[YSSMAN]

...To be completely honest, I have no idea where this thing has gone...

But, I will offer a few comments:

- On the topic of digital audio: I really can't think of too many people who even have 7.1 surround, much less any kind of support that will pump out that kind of quality. In general, "most" people would be more than satisfied with Dolby 5.1, etc. Sure, it's nice to have all the goodies and gadgets, but when you aren't going to be able to tell much of a difference, I'm not sure if it would be good for everyone.

- There were some interesting postings from TGS and X06 this year, and I belive the story that comapred Forza 2 and GTHD was indeed a good way to look at whats going on.

[-STORY FOUND HERE-]

It is a difference of ideals and how one approaches them, and although Microsoft may be taking small steps by comparison to Sony, Sony may be going too far and under-performing what they promise.

...But as I've noticed before, dozens of times, we won't know what is going to happen untill it happens...

- On Assassin's Creed: Now that it is no-longer a PS3-exclusive, I did find it interesting when the little blurbs about how the 360 version will have better AI due to the better interlacing of the hardware, but it obviously isn't a reason to go out and buy a 360 just because of it. Just something interesting...

 

[Vasco]

Could anyone tell me how much the Live Vision camera bundle with the 12 month live gold subscription (and I think it comes with an arcade game too?) will cost and when it will come out in Australia?

 

[harrytuttle]

...To be completely honest, I have no idea where this thing has gone...

Few people do...

- On the topic of digital audio: I really can't think of too many people who even have 7.1 surround, much less any kind of support that will pump out that kind of quality. In general, "most" people would be more than satisfied with Dolby 5.1, etc. Sure, it's nice to have all the goodies and gadgets, but when you aren't going to be able to tell much of a difference, I'm not sure if it would be good for everyone.

With better-engineered games, it's the difference between watching "Lord of the Rings" with or without DTS/DD/etc. The new thing (well, not so new) is gaming & entertainment rooms. For a long time, TV was considered a "lesser" medium, for "children"; hi-fi stereo was the proper entertainment format. The advent of cable-distributed broadcasts was the start of a slow change in thinking, culminating with the release of DSS (DirectTV, etc.) that made people accept video as a "hi-fi" format, and worth spending thousands of dollars on.

That kind of leads us to today, where home theater is king and some people don't think twice about spending US$250K on a dedicated room. It's usually not the same people who spend US$100K on their stereo 20 years earlier, but some are. Now we've got gaming, and the average age of the gamer has shot up from ~12 to ~25 and gaming is no longer considered quite as infantile as it was 10 years ago. Having seen a few US$100K+ entertainment rooms (among many other, smaller systems) I can tell you that gaming is the new TV.

Surround sound definitely makes a difference, and while you many not be spending $100K just for GT5, I know that I've got a few grand set aside for a new PC...for TDU & Lego SW II.

[-STORY FOUND HERE-]

Is this not the creepiest thing you've ever seen? I'm pretty sure at least half the episodes of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit start out with this exact scenario. Only without the corporate mascot. Congratulations Burger King, you've turned the face of your brand into a predator. A delicious, flame-broiled predator.

^Totally priceless! The ad for BK's coffee is seriously deranged.

 

[LaBounti]

Hence the XNA program. Read up on XNA, and you will see that users developing mods for games is not at all out of the question.

I can go back to your statement about no games anounced for PS3. I did not read much but can you find where it says user mods can be made for games. Anyway you look at it it has to be approved by Microsoft and handled by them. So in other words, its more restricted.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I can go back to your statement about no games anounced for PS3.

What I said, was that I had not heard about Sony allowing people to make mods for their games. You gave a link, and I read it, thanks. In that link was a story about how they are allowing people to make mods for Unreal. But, Unreal is one game. That is far from ALL GAMES as you alluded to.

I did not read much but can you find where it says user mods can be made for games.

It doesn't, but that isn't the point. By having a user-created development environment, MS has now got all the major pieces out there on the playing field, so to speak, ready and waiting. Yes, its nice that Sony is doing this. Open anything from them is nice. But, its yet to be seen as to how it will happen, or to what extent.

But, in theory, all MS has to do for the same thing to happen, would be to tell people to sign up for XNA, give a list of approved games, and you're now open for mods. Then, people can upload their mods to XBL, and your set. It really would be very easy. But, its up to them.

Anyway you look at it it has to be approved by Microsoft and handled by them. So in other words, its more restricted.

So, this didn't have to be approved my Sony first? Look, anything like this has to be approved by A LOT of people. Its not like this is just happend, and Sony signed off on it, sight unseen. In todays VERY LEGAL world, neither of these consoles are going to have anything out there that they don't want or approve of.

Hilg

 

[Dave A]

What I said, was that I had not heard about Sony allowing people to make mods for their games. You gave a link, and I read it, thanks. In that link was a story about how they are allowing people to make mods for Unreal. But, Unreal is one game. That is far from ALL GAMES as you alluded to.

Kazunori Yamauchi has already said GT:HD may be moddable on different levels from the car companies creating thier own mods to the individual platyers creating theirs.

In todays VERY LEGAL world, neither of these consoles are going to have anything out there that they don't want or approve of.

Hilg

It's inevitable that there will be mods Sony don't know about or do not approve of appearing for PS3 games, the PS3 uses the full world wide web, it's not some little web based restricted network like X-Box live, as a result there is nothing Sony can do if I decide to host Daves mod X for Gran turismo HD on Dave's website Y.

 

[MustangSVT]

- On the topic of digital audio: I really can't think of too many people who even have 7.1 surround, much less any kind of support that will pump out that kind of quality. In general, "most" people would be more than satisfied with Dolby 5.1, etc. Sure, it's nice to have all the goodies and gadgets, but when you aren't going to be able to tell much of a difference, I'm not sure if it would be good for everyone.

Not sure where this thing about 7.1 audio came from as there's no 7.1 movies on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray at the moment and there probably never will be. DVD format allowed for 7.1 audio yet the best that was released was DTS-ES with 6.1 discrete channels where the 6th channel can be mixed into the back 2 channels. If you want to get 7.1 out of any current hd-dvd movie or blu-ray, you'd have to use HDMI (or maybe the analog connections on the Toshiba) and send the 5.1 Dolby Plus or 5.1 DolbyHD and then use Dolby PLIIx to mix the surround channels into the back channels as well (you can do this with any 5.1 source with modern receivers as far as I know). So you can do this with 360 as well, since it outputs Dolby 5.1, just use Dolby PLIIx on it.

Anyway about not having "next-gen" audio on the 360, it's really not a big deal. Let's see, the 2nd-gen Toshiba player for $499 doesn't have analog audio connections which means you can't use its DD Plus and DolbyTrueHD decoding capability and I wouldn't want to buy the current one because it's too bulky in size. If you really want next-gen audio, then you probably have the Toshiba HD-A1 player already.

For me, the 360 hd-dvd add-on is a great convenience. Looks like it'll be a decent player (not much noise, cheap), and I won't have to get new video cables or audio cables, already have optical hooked up from the 360 to my surround system. I really can't wait for this add-on. Grand Prix just came out on HD-DVD I believe and I can't wait to watch that.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Kazunori Yamauchi has already said GT:HD may be moddable on different levels from the car companies creating thier own mods to the individual platyers creating theirs.

Ok, so we are now at 2 games that might allow some form of mods.

It's inevitable that there will be mods Sony don't know about or do not approve of appearing for PS3 games, the PS3 uses the full world wide web, it's not some little web based restricted network like X-Box live, as a result there is nothing Sony can do if I decide to host Daves mod X for Gran turismo HD on Dave's website Y.

Well, if the PSP is any indicator, these types of things are totally possible. But, that isn't what I was talking about though. I mean, did MS approve of mod chips or XBMC on the original XBox??? No, but it was out there. There will always be "mods" to systems and their games. People can do that for whatever they want. Hell, I could make a hack and mods for the "Barbie" games, if I wanted. That doesn't mean that Sony, MS, Nintendo and the developers are ok with it. But, with this one game in question, Unreal, they are openly allowing it, in some form.

Hilg

 

[MustangSVT]

You guys are way off-topic. Let's get back to discussion about HD-DVD drive and the Vision camera. Other stuff can go in other threads.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

For me, the 360 hd-dvd add-on is a great convenience. Looks like it'll be a decent player (not much noise, cheap), and I won't have to get new video cables or audio cables, already have optical hooked up from the 360 to my surround system.

Excellent points, and I’m sure there will be other 360 owners that feel the same way.

However, the problem for MS is that it is very unlikely that the majority of XB360 owners are even interested in paying a premium for HD no matter how good a deal it is.

Add to that, the limited support HD DVD has throughout the industry and studios, which will likely cause many consumers to stay away from investing any money into a format that may die out in the near future.

Those that are willing to pay a premium, and accept the risk that the format may not last, there are understandable reasons why they may want to pay an extra $200 for a standalone HD DVD player (based on expected $400 street prices). Like having HDMI, additional performance, features, possibly higher quality control, and designed for seamless integration with home theater equipment and equipment racks.

For someone with the kind of display and equipment that takes full advantage of what HD DVD has to offer, paying $200 more than the XB360 HD DVD drive for Toshiba’s standalone player should not be much of a financial burden, especially when it comes with added benefits.

The problem is that without game support, the XB360 HD DVD drive doesn’t offer any added value over HD DVD players.

Now for those not worried about HD DVD losing the format war and/or looking for the absolute cheapest way to get HD DVD, and already own an XB360, then this is indeed a great deal, especially when you get a ~$25 HD DVD thrown into the deal!

I will still be very surprised if more than 20% of XB360 owners buy this player, but I can also understand why some might decide to buy it.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Excellent points, and I’m sure there will be other 360 owners that feel the same way.......However, the problem for MS is that it is very unlikely that the majority of XB360 owners are even interested in paying a premium for HD no matter how good a deal it is.

But, I don't think MS is EXPECTING a large majority to buy this. They aren't pitching this add-on as a MUST HAVE item. Its just an available add-on for those with the 360 already who want HD-DVD at a considerable ammout less over a stand alone player.

...will likely cause many consumers to stay away from investing any money into a format that may die out in the near future.

...there are understandable reasons why they may want to pay an extra $200 for a standalone HD DVD player

So, you think its ok to spend $400-500 for a player, but you don't think it wise for people to spend $200??? I see what you are saying, but those are two very different markets. In no way does it seem to me that MS is selling this as a full-on, feature-rich player. I'm sure there will be SOME things not available, such as TrueHD and DTS-HD if we don't get HDMI. But, there are a good number of people who DON'T care about all the extra stuff, that the Xbox player will be perfect for. And, there are others, who very much want every single feature and benefit that a stand alone player offers.

I can tell you, I'm much more apt to spend $200 for this than I am to spend $400-500 for a stand alone player. If, by chance, HD-DVD does in fact lose out in the format war, I'm only out $200 at that point. BUT, I still can use the Xbox for games and everything like it was intended. But, with a stand alone HD-DVD player, you are left with a player and no media.

Like having HDMI, additional performance, features, possibly higher quality control, and designed for seamless integration with home theater equipment and equipment racks.

Well, we don't know for sure about the HDMI thing yet. That could still happen. MS has said that it isn't out of the question, just that they don't see a need for it yet. As for the other "performance, features, and quality" you think this drive might lack. I suggest you wait and see, before making statements like that. No one has yet really seen what this drive is like, or can do. So, to say that a stand alone player offers ANYTHING better is just silly at this point.

The problem is that without game support, the XB360 HD DVD drive doesn’t offer any added value over HD DVD players.

Except being half the price. If price is no object, I guess you are right. But, if that were the case, why are so many people complaining about the price of the PS3?? Again, we don't know the performance of this drive, so to say it offers nothing, all while being half the price, thats a bit presumptuous.

I will still be very surprised if more than 20% of XB360 owners buy this player, but I can also understand why some might decide to buy it.

Maybe that is all the MS is projecting as well. They have never said, to my knowledge, any projected attachment rate expectations for this drive.

Hilg

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

But, I don't think MS is EXPECTING a large majority to buy this. They aren't pitching this add-on as a MUST HAVE item.

Which is why I never said they are EXPECTING a large majority to buy it, not did I bring up MS's marketing or sales projections as it relates to this add-on drive. I was simply sharing my thoughts on how I think this drive will be received and how it might sell.

So, you think its ok to spend $400-500 for a player, but you don't think it wise for people to spend $200??? I see what you are saying, but those are two very different markets.

If you see what I am saying, then why ask the question with three question marks?

In no way does it seem to me that MS is selling this as a full-on, feature-rich player.

Precisely my point, and why some who want the best out of HD DVD will probably see vaue in paying $200+ more for a better player, instead of the add-on drive. In fact, I'm sure some will even opt for the $900 Toshiba model for that reason. Those that do, and those that buy a standalone HD DVD player are not likely also going to buy the XB360 add-on, thus limiting the market even more for MS.

I'm sure there will be SOME things not available, such as TrueHD and DTS-HD if we don't get HDMI. But, there are a good number of people who DON'T care about all the extra stuff, that the Xbox player will be perfect for. And, there are others, who very much want every single feature and benefit that a stand alone player offers.

.. which is close to what I was saying anyway. So you are going to have some trouble taking a contrarian POV this time.

Again, we don't know the performance of this drive, so to say it offers nothing, all while being half the price, that’s a bit presumptuous.

And yet I did not say that. I said that it wouldn't have any added value over a standalone player. And of course at half the price, I said that it was bargain and for some it will be an easy choice.

Maybe that is all the MS is projecting as well. They have never said, to my knowledge, any projected attachment rate expectations for this drive.

Again you bring up MS projections that was never even mentioned in my post. I was clearly expressing my own personal opinion on how these might sell, not relaying what MS's projections are.