First Look at HD-DVD Drive

[JNasty4G63]

Unless Microsoft adds HDMI 1.3 support to their HD DVD Xbox drive, and developes HD DVD versions of games for those customers with HD DVD equipped Xboxes, then I strongly suspect Microsoft isn't going to be selling many of these drives (built-in or not), as they wont be of much use compared to both current and future video and gaming technology.

Well, they will almost certainly NOT develop games for the HD-DVD drive, built-in or not. The minute you make a game for HD-DVD, you alienate those who don't have the drive, cutting off a good chunk of your customer base.

And really, adding HDMI, while it would be great, isn't a big deal. Especially the new 1.3 spec. Yes, the new 1.3 spec is great and all, it adds a lot of features. But, they are features that are not available or supported with most, if not all, current displays and audio equipment. So, it would be a feature that would be very unused by a good majority of people.

If all someone wants is to sample HD-DVD, and the enhanced resolution and added features that it brings, this is a great way to do that. Many people out there do not have HDMI inputs on their display, let alone a display capable of 1080p resolution. I don't. I have a 720p Sony LCD-RP set with no HDMI, just a single DVI.

For me, this HD-DVD drive will be a decent way to try this out for only a couple hundred dollars, as opposed to $500-1000. If I get one, the signal is going to be sent from the XBox at 720p over the component cables anyway. So again, while it would be nice, there are many people, along with myself, who have no use for HDMI on this player.

Hilg

 

[harrytuttle]

Apparently Microsoft has a "plan" for everything (much in the way God has a "plan" for all of us?) and how it will work out, us early adapters, and those who are just buying brand-new.

One of Microsoft's most successful marketing tactics is FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. For the past 12 years, with each new major release of anything, the product is annouced far ahead of time. Since Microsoft had already established a huge market share 12 years ago, the simple fact of them mentioning that they have "something" in the works makes people think that they should just wait for the Windows version of whatever some other company is just about to release a competitor to. Lotus was done in by this method alone (remember Lotus?).

Microsoft can annouce anything they want. Whether you'll see it this decade or not (if ever), is highly unlikely.

While I agree that there is no sign that the studios will be using the Image Constraint Token any time soon, Microsoft is clearly misrepresenting the importance of HDMI, and its impact on the industry.

Repeated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

In addition, HD DVD players must follow AACS guidelines pertaining to outputs over analog connections. This is set by a flag called the Image Constraint Token (ICT), which restricts the resolution for analog outputs without HDCP to 960×540. The decision to set the flag to restrict output ("down-convert") is left to the content provider. Warner Pictures is a proponent of ICT, and it is expected that Paramount and Universal will implement down-conversion as well [10]. As of March 2006, 5 of the 6 studios releasing HD DVD content have announced they will not use ICT/down-conversion for the time being [11]. AACS guidelines require that any title that implements the ICT must clearly state so on the packaging.

Just so we're clear, ICT is going to be used, and will be more widespread in the near future.

Another thing to consider is that all standard-definition DVD players that do upconversion are only watchable in 1080i/720p via HDMI. What are the chances that true HD material will be passed unprotected?

1 - The update for 1080p for the Xbox is just for the movies sake, not the games. All HD-DVD movies are encoded at 1080p, so to get the full resolution out of them, the XBox needs to be able to output that.

Not true. Just about all current HD-DVD movies happen to be encoded at 1080p, but there's nothing stopping a studio from dropping that down to 480i. If it's in the spec, someone will use it. Probably "Reefer Madness" or something from Ed Wood, but it might be out there.

3 - Most all the movie studios have said that they are not going to start implementing the ICT until 2009, at the earliest. With so many people out there with "older" HD sets that aren't HDCP compliant, the last thing they want to do is cut those people off and force them into something. They are going to give the market time, and then give it a go. So, I agree with MS on this one. The lack of HDCP isn't really an issue, since by the time the ICT "switch" is thrown, the XBox 360 will be out to pasture.

If the studios could have their way, you'd pay for every jingle, TV ad, every time you watch Saturday morning cartoons...everything. Pay-per-second. They're against home ownership, against fair use recording, and will do anything they can to try to get you to buy a newer version that they can control better. The archaic and bizzare anti-piracy measures the studios use are proof. They only serve to restrict legal home use, and do little to nothing to stop true piracy. In fact, it seems to drive it through the roof with each new format.

There's only one studio that might have cared about the incompatibility between new formats and old displays: Sony. The problem is that they're so fractured and non-communcative between divisions they forgot that there's millions of HDTV's out there with no HDMI connections. So who won out? The one making more money: Columbia/Tri-Star/Sony Pictures. HDMI is all but required on BD.

The rest of the studios expect people to buy new TVs in the same manner that they keep herding themselves into theaters for the next god-awful Bruckheimer flick.

 

[a6m5]

While I agree that there is no sign that the studios will be using the Image Constraint Token any time soon, Microsoft is clearly misrepresenting the importance of HDMI, and its impact on the industry. DVI (HDMI's predecessor) has been around since 1999, and HDMI has been in consumer products for more than three years. It is not only a standard, but every new consumer based HDTV display now supports HDMI. Especially with the new HDMI 1.3, there are significant performance advantages to HDMI over component, and it isn’t simply a question of whether or not HD sources will or will not include the ICT.

Agreed.

3, 4 years ago, maybe, but in 2006, HD-DVD Player with only a component output is questionable. It makes me think that Microsoft certainly will release a version with HDMI later on, making this add-on a even bigger mess. At least for the shoppers buying it, when the replacing version comes out, or are buying used.

Unless Microsoft adds HDMI 1.3 support to their HD DVD Xbox drive, and developes HD DVD versions of games for those customers with HD DVD equipped Xboxes, then I strongly suspect Microsoft isn't going to be selling many of these drives (built-in or not), as they wont be of much use compared to both current and future video and gaming technology.

I agree with JNasty on this one. They would be pulling the "SEGA 32X", if they did that. I think Microsoft should wait until the next generation console for that.

The rest of the studios expect people to buy new TVs in the same manner that they keep herding themselves into theaters for the next god-awful Bruckheimer flick.

👍

 

[JNasty4G63]

Not true. Just about all current HD-DVD movies happen to be encoded at 1080p, but there's nothing stopping a studio from dropping that down to 480i. If it's in the spec, someone will use it. Probably "Reefer Madness" or something from Ed Wood, but it might be out there.

I understand what your saying, and I realize its in the spec. But, you don't need HD-DVD for that. The only point of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray is the storage capacity. If all you are putting on it is 480i, you might as well just use a DVD. Thats what the new formats are for. They have the capacity to store that 2hrs or so of 1080p video with its uncompressed audio. You don't need an HD format disc for 480i and 2ch sound.

Hilg

 

[DuckRacer]

You can't just switch formats and FORCE people to buy the NEW version of the console if they want to play new games.

Couldn't MS launch some program where you can trade in your old X360 for a new one with the HD-DVD drive?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Couldn't MS launch some program where you can trade in your old X360 for a new one with the HD-DVD drive?

Could they??? Sure. Will they?? No chance.

Hilg

 

[a6m5]

If they could do it though, that would be genius. Like JNasty said, no chance. But if they can install a new drive in your Xbox 360 for a small fee or something.

 

[Tornado]

They still wouldn't do it because they know the gamers wouldn't buy it. Sega learned that the hard way, twice; and Microsoft knows that even Halo 3 wouldn't be enough to force people to pay Microsoft $200 to put a new disc reader in a 360.

 

[LaBounti]

1080p is just like 5.1 dolby . Its there for those who have the hardware to use it. So saying 1080p isnt importaint is the same as saying 5.1 or the now 7.1 is usless only because few people will use it. I dont own a 5.1 sound system and dont care at this time for it. But my next TV will be 1080p since thats more importaint than 5.1 or 7.1 audio.

No one talks about the dolby HD features that few people will be able to use use with ps3. 1080p gets all the attention. The 360 does not feature Dolby True HD or DTS-HD. Both of those are via hdmi. Dont they need some kind of license to use dolby digital? 1080p is free of charge to Sony. The advanced audio features that few will use are not.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Well, they will almost certainly NOT develop games for the HD-DVD drive, built-in or not. The minute you make a game for HD-DVD, you alienate those who don't have the drive, cutting off a good chunk of your customer base.

By that logic, then Microsoft should never have released the Xbox 360 as it alienates all the standard Xbox owners. Studios should not release HD DVD or Blu-ray titles, as it alienates standard DVD users. Really? Of course not.

No one is suggesting that just because they might release games specifically for an HD DVD equipped Xbox 360 that they wont continue to support standard Xbox or nonHD DVD equipped Xbox 360 owners.

If, and that's a huge if in this particular case, Microsoft release HD DVD equipped Xbox 360 players that can play HD DVD games, then developing games for it makes perfect sense. It's called feeding market demands, expanding your market base, and encouraging dedicated users to continue to upgrade. However, just like studios and standard DVD, Microsoft isn't so foolish as to not continue to support their largest market of users.

I do however understand your concerns. You bought a 720p display with no HDMI, and presumably a 1st gen Xbox 360. It is only natural that you are not the least bit excited about the possibility that you wont have the ability to take advantage of some of the latest and greatest products, but this is the nature of technology. You can spend $3,000 on a state of the art PC today, and in less than four years, it wont be able to run some of the new programs and games, and will be worth about as much as the box it came in. Are the PC manufacturers and software programmers alienating their customer base? Apparently not, when you look at PC sales.

And really, adding HDMI, while it would be great, isn't a big deal. Especially the new 1.3 spec. Yes, the new 1.3 spec is great and all, it adds a lot of features. But, they are features that are not available or supported with most, if not all, current displays and audio equipment. So, it would be a feature that would be very unused by a good majority of people.

Spoken from someone who doesn't even own a display with HDMI I can certainly understand why you have this opinion. However, if you are interested in clearly understanding the impact HDMI is having on the industry, I suggest you subscribe to the IDC and purchase some of their sales and marketing analysis reports on HDMI equipped HDTV sales.

In fact, just make a trip to any large bricks & mortar electronic retailer, like Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's etc. You'll quickly see that just about every single HD display has HDMI. 1920x1080 and HDMI equipped HD displays are not just exclusive products sold to the rich and famous at exclusive custom high-end home theater stores. In fact, even most of the HD displays at WALMART have HDMI, and both Costco and Sam's Club sells 1920x1080 displays at very reasonable prices. If you really want to a bargain, just look online. You can find many etailers offering Sony's 60" SXRD 1920x1080 HDTV for less than $3,000. Samsung has been selling thousands of their 1920x1080 DLP HDTVs in just the last couple months, most of which can be purchased for less than $3,000. Mitsubishi has sold far more 1920x1080 DLP w/HDMI, as they have been selling them for a couple years now.

Many people out there do not have HDMI inputs on their display, let alone a display capable of 1080p resolution. I don't. I have a 720p Sony LCD-RP set with no HDMI, just a single DVI.

I agree, and despite the enormous sales of HDMI equipped HDTVs, and despite the fact that just about every HDTV bought today is equipped with HDMI, there are, an will continue to be a huge market of consumers without these types of displays.

BTW: You can use an HDMI-DVI adapter to connect a HDMI output source to your DVI input. Many, but not all DVI inputs are HDCP compatible. If yours is, then you wont have to worry about sources flagged with ICT. You wont get the added performance and features that HDMI 1.3 offers, but at least you wont have to worry about ICT.

So again, while it would be nice, there are many people, along with myself, who have no use for HDMI on this player.

Which is why companies, including Microsoft, will continue to release products where there is a demand.

Nevertheless, if you feel "alienated", because companies release better products that are not compatible with your equipment, then perhaps you may want to consider upgrading. Otherwise be happy with the decision you made, and know that as long as there is a strong market demand for content compatible with your equipment, companies will continue to release products to feed that demand.

I'm sure even if Microsoft does release a future Xbox 360 with HD DVD and HDMI, they will continue to support standard Xbox 360s. It's just smart business to support demand, but it is also dumb business to not continually advance your product line, and expand your market influence.

Just so we're clear, ICT is going to be used, and will be more widespread in the near future.

Actually that isn't clear, and yes, there are countless examples in the history of electronics where features that were included in the specs were never used throughout the lifetime of the product.

Warner, who is perhaps the largest supporter of the use of IVT, has released several HD DVD and Blu-ray titles, and none of them have the ICT. Will they eventually? My bet is yes, but I don't expect to see it "more widespread in the near future", unless your definition of "near future" is several years, and not months away.

Another thing to consider is that all standard-definition DVD players that do upconversion are only watchable in 1080i/720p via HDMI.

You are mistaken. There have been standard DVD players on the market that upconvert to 1080p via DVI & HDMI for over a year now.

Just about all current HD-DVD movies happen to be encoded at 1080p, but there's nothing stopping a studio from dropping that down to 480i.

Actually, the ICT would drop it to 960x540p, not 480i. It even clear states that in the wiki listing you quoted.

 

[JNasty4G63]

By that logic, then Microsoft should never have released the Xbox 360 as it alienates all the standard Xbox owners. Studios should not release HD DVD or Blu-ray titles, as it alienates standard DVD users. Really? Of course not.

That isn't the point. We aren't talking about a NEW console. We're talking about the same exact hardware, just a different optical drive. Same processor, same RAM, same graphics engine, just a new drive. THAT is not the same as what you are talking about. Of course there are going to be advances in technology, and going from PS1 to PS2 and now PS3 is understood.

But, you're saying that MS should put a HD-DVD drive in the CURRENT XBox 360 hardware, and start making games using that. That instantly cuts off people who have the same hardware, just the wrong drive. That is far from the same as releasing new updated hardware every 4-5 years.

No one is suggesting that just because they might release games specifically for an HD DVD equipped Xbox 360 that they wont continue to support standard Xbox or nonHD DVD equipped Xbox 360 owners.

We talked about this before in this very thread, did you not read??? Doing this would be NO different than what Sega did with Sega CD and the 32X, and we all know how well those turned out. The minute you make a game that requires a 360 equiped with HD-DVD, you just cut off all those people without it. If you think that is going to work, or even happen, I don't know what to tell you.

MS needs customers, and need to sell consoles. Lets just say this thing DOES some how happen next year. By that time, MS will have sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million units. The last thing you want to do, when every customer REALLY counts, is piss off those current 10 million users. I hope you don't just think that counts as "advancement" and "progress" for the console.

I do however understand your concerns. You bought a 720p display with no HDMI, and presumably a 1st gen Xbox 360. It is only natural that you are not the least bit excited about the possibility that you wont have the ability to take advantage of some of the latest and greatest products....

Well, thanks for the support, but you don't understand me at all. My TV is equipped with a DVI connector that is HDCP compliant. So, I'm well equipped to take a HDMI signal, if need be. Taking advantage of the "latest and greatest" as you put it, isn't a problem. Just because I said I'm not concerned with this, please don't make assumptions about me or my equipment. You have been very wrong about it so far, might want to stop while you're ahead.

.....but this is the nature of technology. You can spend $3,000 on a state of the art PC today, and in less than four years, it wont be able to run some of the new programs and games, and will be worth about as much as the box it came in. Are the PC manufacturers and software programmers alienating their customer base? Apparently not, when you look at PC sales.

I'm sorry, when did we start talking about PCs in this discussion??? The PC industry and the home console gaming industry are 2 VERY different things. Yes, as you said, PCs are always evolving and getting faster, with more storage, more features. But, that isn't how consoles work. Consoles work on a roughly 4-5 year timeline. You get a box, it stays the same for many years, then a new one comes out and you advance.

PCs can get away with advancing because you can upgrade PCs much easier. If you can't play a new game very well, a new video card might help. Or, if you run a lot of programs, but your computer gets a little slow, some more RAM will help. Or, you want to start making home movies, a new DVD burner will work. Hell, you can even upgrade processors if you want. All things that are understood in the PC world, and completely unattainable with a console. Very different things.

Spoken from someone who doesn't even own a display with HDMI I can certainly understand why you have this opinion. However, if you are interested in clearly understanding the impact HDMI is having on the industry, I suggest you subscribe to the IDC and purchase some of their sales and marketing analysis reports on HDMI equipped HDTV sales.

You don't really understand much about me at all. Like I said, and as you should have known with all your knowledge of HDMI, my display is equipped with a DVI connector. It is fully HDCP compliant. So, all I need is a DVI-HDMI cable, and I'm good to go. No worries here. But, since you understand all about me, you probably knew that, right???

In fact, just make a trip to any large bricks & mortar electronic retailer, like Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's etc. You'll quickly see.....BLAH BLAH BLAH.....they have been selling them for a couple years now.

Well, again, thank you for the lesson on something I'm already well aware of. I don't know why, but you seem to think I know nothing about this?? Trust me, I'm not new to home theater and its technology. You see the display I own, and just assume that I know nothing about the technology or currently available models. I'm well aware of what is going on.

I agree, and despite the enormous sales of HDMI equipped HDTVs, and despite the fact that just about every HDTV bought today is equipped with HDMI, there are, an will continue to be a huge market of consumers without these types of displays.

Ok, the one glimmer of understanding here. Look, I understand that HDMI, and all its bundled features and spec, are the future. And yes, basically every tv sold in the last 1-2 years has come with and HDMI input. But, think about all the people who don't even own an HDTV. Hell, I'm just 1 of 2 of my 10 or so close friends who owns a HDTV. We aren't talking about people who don't understand it or want it, just people who don't need it. There are a lot of people like that.

Nevertheless, if you feel "alienated", because companies release better products that are not compatible with your equipment, then perhaps you may want to consider upgrading.

I don't need to upgrade. And, I don't feel alienated. Please, just stop trying to tell me how I feel or what I should do with my equipment. You are suggesting that I should upgrade to a roughly $3k TV just so I can get the FULL benefit of 1080p with new formats. I DON'T NEED IT!!! I have 720p and HDCP compliant DVI, I don't need a new HDMI equipped 1080p set.

....but it is dumb business to not continually advance your product line, and expand your market influence.

There are always advances. But, they are basically just generational advances. This drive will be a nice add-on, there is no doubt about it. It will allow everyone with the XBox 360 to try HD-DVD for a very reasonable price. And down the road, if they do update the console to include this drive built in, it will make it even easier. But, unless something big changes with regards to MS stand on things, and unless a huge ammount of people buy these add-on drives, I really doubt we will see any games on it. It just doesn't make sense. Hell, people are still up in the air as to which format is better for them between the two, so the chances of this drive selling in huge numbers is unlikely anyway.

Hilg

 

[JNasty4G63]

BTW: You can use an HDMI-DVI adapter to connect a HDMI output source to your DVI input. Many, but not all DVI inputs are HDCP compatible. If yours is, then you wont have to worry about sources flagged with ICT. You wont get the added performance and features that HDMI 1.3 offers, but at least you wont have to worry about ICT.

To your update, again thanks, but I'm well aware of this. I know how DVI works, I know how HDMI works, and I know how ICT works.

And DARN, I won't get the benefit of HDMI 1.3, thats too bad. Why don't you suggest a TV set I can buy to use this??? OH, whats that??? There aren't any yet??? Oh, thats right. So, not only will I not be able to use those features, but no one who owns ANY current HDTV will either.

Look, HDMI 1.3 is going to be a very good upgrade. And, I'm sure by the time things start appearing with it, I might upgrade. But as it stands right now, there is nothing outputting the 1.3 spec, and no displays or audio equipment accepting the 1.3 spec. So, as nice as it is, the 1.3 spec is just one more feature that many people aren't going to care about for quite some time.

Hilg

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Seeing as you are taking all of this way too personally (BTW: you'll see I did amended my post with info on HDCP and DVI nearly and hour before you responded - even though you made no mention of having an HDCP compliant DVI input) and blowing things that are said out of proportion I'll only respond to what you consider a glimmer of understanding:

Ok, the one glimmer of understanding here. Look, I understand that HDMI, and all its bundled features and spec, are the future. And yes, basically every tv sold in the last 1-2 years has come with and HDMI input. But, think about all the people who don't even own an HDTV. Hell, I'm just 1 of 2 of my 10 or so close friends who owns a HDTV. We aren't talking about people who don't understand it or want it, just people who don't need it. There are a lot of people like that.

Yes, and as stated, they continue to have content support. No one is suggesting they are being cut off.

The point is that there are OTHER consumers who want and can afford better content, and if there is profit, companies will meet that demand. In fact, it is to the best interest of those companies to continually expand their markets. If the PS3 takes off and its BD game titles blow away anything from Xbox, Microsoft will lose market share if they do not offer a similar product.

The most important point though is that Xbox 360s with HD DVDs that play games are not necessarily going to turn Xbox360s obsolete. Not unless most current Xbox 360 users sell of their consoles. As long as their is a market, there will be content support. The fact that maybe there will be some better game for an upgraded version of the same game console doesn't in itself change anything. It just gives consumers more options. Standard Xbox 360 owners will still have the same game selections with or without the possibility of a new HD DVD version.

Let me just end this with my concern over the tone of your last couple posts. There is no need to react so personally, as I was only responding with facts based on the comments and the information you gave. In no way am I personally attaching you, only pointing out why I felt your assessment on the situation was flawed. Yes, I don't know you, nor do I need to know you to respond to the comments you made. I'm sorry if you somehow felt offended, as that most certainly was not the intent.

 

[Tornado]

Just to add a little to the discussion:

No one is suggesting that just because they might release games specifically for an HD DVD equipped Xbox 360 that they wont continue to support standard Xbox or nonHD DVD equipped Xbox 360 owners.

Microsoft dumped the standard Xbox nearly a full year ago, as soon as the 360 came out, despite the XBox being out for less than 4 years. They pissed off everyone who owned one and didn't want a 360 by forcing them to upgrade to the 360 for MS published games. That already shows that they are commited to following in the Sega's footsteps by doing so, because Sega did the same thing with the Genesis in 1995.
That is also the same reason why the 360 has been outsold nearly every month this year by everything on the market, barring the Gamecube. By forcing to upgrade, many users said the hell with it and went out and bought PS2's, which stil have at least two more years of life in them for a little more than 1/4th the price of the real 360.
Can you honestly beleive that after that major screw up possibly even worse than Sega's mistakes (because Microsoft sold far more Xbox's than Sega sold Genesis' and Master System's) that Microsoft would risk even contemplating making games for the HD-DVD format? They know that a good chunk of 360 buyers are not going to purchase the thing, as it is even a more worthless add-on than the PS2 HDD or Sega CD. And if they put it in standard, prices will shoot up into PS3 territory, just like they did with the JVC X'Eye/Sega CDX. HD-DVD based games will NEVER happen this console generation.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Seeing as you are taking all of this way too personally...

Um, you are the one who said you understand how I feel, and made suggestions on things that will better my experience. All this without even knowing how I felt about my current experience.

Yes, and as stated, they continue to have content support. No one is suggesting they are being cut off.

Assume for a minute that you are the owner of a regular CRT tv, and a XBox 360 with no HD-DVD drive, who just likes games. If a game comes out that runs off the HD-DVD drive in 1080p, what is that person to do?? That person now HAS to go out and buy another add-on just to play that game. Even though with their current display, they are getting basically none of the added benefit of HD-DVD or 1080p content. That sounds EXACTLY like cutting someone off.

To use your PC comparison, let talk about games. What if a when Half Life 2 came out, Valve said it would ONLY run on Intel Xtreme processors, how well would that sell?? Not only do you need a pretty beefy system to handle the graphics alone, but you are now REQUIRED to have a $1k processor as well. That doesn't work.

PC games work on all hardware. Some systems run games slow, some very well. But, even with a couple year old system, you can play newer games. PC game makers will suggest certain system features to get the best game play. But, even older systems will play the game, just without some of the super high end visuals.

But, the minute you make a game for a console that REQUIRES an add-on, you just instantly FORCED people to have to upgrade or not play. Case in point, Final Fantasy 11 on PS2. It REQUIRED the HDD to play, no other way around it. That is a FORCED add-on. And, judging by how the newer "slim" PS2 didn't even accept the add-on, you can see how well it did. Even the Xbox 360 HDD is the same. Its there if you want it, but developers don't code for it, because they know that many people don't have it.

The point is that there are OTHER consumers who want and can afford better content, and if there is profit, companies will meet that demand. In fact, it is to the best interest of those companies to continually expand their markets. If the PS3 takes off and its BD game titles blow away anything from Xbox, Microsoft will lose marker share if they do not offer a similar product.

I don't doubt that there are people out there that can afford a lot of things. But, making the assumption that just because something is available and new means people will want it just doesn't work. What about bluetooth, wifi, and memory card readers. Those are all available on the PS3, so do you think we should have those as well on the 360?? Sure, that would probably add a couple hundred $$$ to the price, but why not, its available. Have to advance things, right???

This drive will almost certainly be just optional, and movies only. At that point, you aren't cutting anyone off from anything. If you don't want HD-DVD, don't buy it. If you do want to get HD-DVD and have the capable equipment, get it. But, its not required. Same with the 360's hard drive, wireless controller, the wifi, and the HD output. All those are features are not required for gameplay, but optional if you want it. Every game will play whether you have some, all ,or none of those features. But a game on HD-DVD instantly requires another purchase.

The fact that maybe there will be some better game for an upgraded version of the same game console doesn't in itself change anything. It just gives consumers more options.

No, it doesn't change anything, unless you are the one who doesn't own said new version of same console. I can see the logic behind your "advancement" theory for this. But, I think you are missing the point. Game consoles, at their core, just don't advance with add-on devices. They advance every generation. Sure, new features and things will come, thats a given.

Take the old PS2. After some time, they made a version that would output progressive video, both in movies and some games. If you didn't have that version of the console, you were still fine. Even though games WOULD do it if you had the newer console, it wasn't required for gameplay in case you had the old version.

Let me just end this with my concern over the tone of your last couple posts.....I'm sorry if you somehow felt offended, as that most certainly was not the intent.

Understood, but you have to see this from my point of view. You come in here and start telling me "how I feel" and start suggesting things unsolicited that I should get to advance my experience. An experience that you don't even know my feelings on. It was just a bit much.

Hilg

 

[harrytuttle]

You are mistaken. There have been standard DVD players on the market that upconvert to 1080p via DVI & HDMI for over a year now.

The point was about the requirements of HDMI, not whether it was 1080i or 1080p.

Microsoft dumped the standard Xbox nearly a full year ago, as soon as the 360 came out, despite the XBox being out for less than 4 years. They pissed off everyone who owned one and didn't want a 360 by forcing them to upgrade to the 360 for MS published games. That already shows that they are commited to following in the Sega's footsteps by doing so, because Sega did the same thing with the Genesis in 1995.

I don't know about this one. Not about who's outselling who, but the reasoning behind it. From what I remember, in the entire history of home electronic gaming, backwards-compatibility was non-existent. This seemed to be true in the early days with Atari, and followed through with the Nintendo/Sega days (and Nintendo is still doing it). It wasn't until the PS2 that the idea of still being able play your previous-generation games was possible.(*)

So perhaps Microsoft isn't really going against the tide, but just doing what everyone but Sony has been doing all along. I think we've all been spoiled by the PS2/PS1, and rightly so. Being a long-time PC gaming fan (even before CGA!), backwards-compatibility is a big deal to me. It's nice to bring out some old game like Stunts once in a while.

Can you honestly beleive that after that major screw up possibly even worse than Sega's mistakes (because Microsoft sold far more Xbox's than Sega sold Genesis' and Master System's) that Microsoft would risk even contemplating making games for the HD-DVD format?

I don't think Microsoft is totally bungled with this release. Having a HD-DVD player is a nice add-on, however limited it may end up being. Microsoft has long since tried to get PCs into the living room (remember MSHome?), and this helps at least get it more entrenched in the home theater as more than just diversionary entertainment. Whether it should have been an internal device with HDMI output is another matter.

Sega's CD was useless for anything but gaming, having been released at a time when regular CD players were commonplace. This at least is being released at the beginning of HD-DVD's campaign. Not that I really approve of Microsoft's approach, though.




(*)I may be wrong, though. Something about the Atari 2600/5200 makes me think Sony wasn't unique in this, but that was 25 years ago.

 

[DuckRacer]

From what I remember, in the entire history of home electronic gaming, backwards-compatibility was non-existent. This seemed to be true in the early days with Atari, and followed through with the Nintendo/Sega days (and Nintendo is still doing it). It wasn't until the PS2 that the idea of still being able play your previous-generation games was possible.(*)

Actually, the Wii will have full backward-compatibility with the Gamecube.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I don't think Microsoft is totally bungled with this release. Having a HD-DVD player is a nice add-on, however limited it may end up being.

I don't think anyone is questioning the release of the add-on. I agree, it will be nice to have as an option. And, if you already have the console, a nice cheap option to sample HD-DVD for a good deal less than a stand alone player.

What most people are questioning is whether or not games are going to be made to use this HD-DVD drive. The add-on itself is fine, if just used for movies, as MS has said all along. But, if they start making games for it, you are then being forced into another purchase just to keep your CURRENT generation console CURRENT. That would be a bad move. Just like what happened with 32X, Sega CD, and the PS2 HDD, expensive add-ons for consoles for specific games rarely, if ever, work.

Hilg

 

[YSSMAN]

Microsoft continues to say "no" for games using the HD-DVD drive, so I would probably take their word for it. Not to say that they always tell the truth, but I think it is plainly obvious that it would be setting them up for a disaster in the near future.

...The only big change that could happen with the HD-DVD drive that I can see for the 360 would be the eventual switch to going internal, maybe. Microsoft would probably need to see for sure if the support will be there to begin with, given that they will probably base that decision on sales of the external drive.

What it is going to come down to is how well they can convince current and potential 360 owners to buy the HD-DVD drive. Given that it will be the "cheapest" HD-DVD drive available on the market, and be able to display in 1080p (theoretically), it would undercut the "flagship" HD-DVD player from Toshiba by more than $400 when bundled with the "Premium" 360 package.

...Will everyone go for it? We will wait and see. I think if the issues for Blu-Ray aren't worked out, particularly with costs and the like, certainly Microsoft and Toshiba stand to gain some market share here with High-Def movie content.

Wait a year and see what happens, thats my best guess. Going by how quickly the HDTV market has changed even in the past six months, a whole year from now could have the market in a very strange place.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Microsoft continues to say "no" for games using the HD-DVD drive, so I would probably take their word for it. Not to say that they always tell the truth, but I think it is plainly obvious that it would be setting them up for a disaster in the near future.

Agreed fully. You never can take their word perfectly to heart, but past console history just isn't in their favor to start making games for an accessory HD-DVD drive.

...The only big change that could happen with the HD-DVD drive that I can see for the 360 would be the eventual switch to going internal, maybe.

I can see this easilly happening. Like you say, if sales are decent for the add-on, they very well could include it built in down the road. Every console is updated and tweaked to fine-tune them over their lifespan. Hell, there have literally been 14 hardware versions of the PS2 over its lifespan.

If the drive does sell well, I could see them just adding it in, and selling it as a higher priced XBox 360/HD-DVD movie player. Sure, that would probably be $500+, but considering the price of a stand alone HD-DVD player, thats not bad when you're getting XBox 360 functionality as well.

That would be my ideal setup. An updated system with better, more efficient cooling. The HD-DVD drive built in for movie playback with no add-ons. An updated motherboard to allow digital video output, and thus HDMI output. And, the soon to be released updated Dashboard/bios to allow for full 1080p/60 output from the system. If something like that ever shows up, I will gladly trade in my current setup and pony up the extra cash to get it.

Hilg

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

With the upgraded core PS3, and the price drop in Japan (and possible in the US)...it could be a huge hit to the success of the HD-DVD add on...and HD-DVD in general.

 

[Tornado]

I don't know about this one. Not about who's outselling who, but the reasoning behind it. From what I remember, in the entire history of home electronic gaming, backwards-compatibility was non-existent. This seemed to be true in the early days with Atari, and followed through with the Nintendo/Sega days (and Nintendo is still doing it). It wasn't until the PS2 that the idea of still being able play your previous-generation games was possible.(*)

So perhaps Microsoft isn't really going against the tide, but just doing what everyone but Sony has been doing all along. I think we've all been spoiled by the PS2/PS1, and rightly so. Being a long-time PC gaming fan (even before CGA!), backwards-compatibility is a big deal to me. It's nice to bring out some old game like Stunts once in a while.

I see where you are coming from, but the only company that was really against the idea of backwards compatibility is Microsoft. In the early 80's the Colecovision could play 2600 games, and all of the Atari consoles barring the Jaguar were designed to play 2600 games as well. The Genny was designed from the start to play Master System games, which was the entire reason the thing had the Z80 in it originally (see Power Base Converter). The Saturn was originally designed for use of Genesis games, but it was scrapped due to cost concerns. Then there is the Playstation, Neo-Geo Pocket Color and Gameboy series. So Microsoft would just not be doing what everyone but themselves have been doing, and Sony was far from the first to include it.

 

[DuckRacer]

Also, here's a review of the Xbox Live Vision Camera.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/734/734096p1.html

 

[YSSMAN]

...To be completely honest, I'm not sold on the Camera yet. Untill the games start comming with the face-mapping option (as Rainbow Six: Las Vegas will), I really don't see a need to have it any time soon...

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

It is now official.

Microsoft announced today at the X06 Press Conference that they will be selling an external HD-DVD player, 360 Universal Media Remote, and an HD-DVD copy of Peter Jackson's King Kong for $199 (US), and should be available by mid-november.

Here is a LINK to the entire press release, and additional information regarding future Xbox game development deals.


While it is a smart decision to include a free HD DVD movie, especially Jackson's King Kong, I still don't see these selling very well.

Sony also is rumored to be including a free Blu-ray DVD movie, or at least a demo disc to encourage PS3 owners to buy BD movies, but nothingconfirmed as of yet.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well King Kong certainly is a good way to showcase the power of HD-DVD (assuming you have an HDTV to take full-advantage of it), but I would have gone with a "better" movie like Batman Begins or a classic like Full Metal Jacket. But, nevertheless, it is an allright choise.

As for the price of $199, I can't complain much either. Granted the "cheapest" Upconverting HD-DVD players from Toshiba are retailing for about $380-500 (depending on store), so the biggest advantage from going by way of the 360 is that you can play games as well. Compare that to Sony's ONLY Blu-Ray player on the market, listed at $1000, that plays sub-par renders of movies (due to poor codecs and the lack of studio pushes for better transfers)... And the 360 isn't that bad of a deal for 1080p movies...

 

[Tornado]

People still won't buy it though.

 

[DuckRacer]

Well King Kong certainly is a good way to showcase the power of HD-DVD (assuming you have an HDTV to take full-advantage of it), but I would have gone with a "better" movie like Batman Begins or a classic like Full Metal Jacket. But, nevertheless, it is an allright choise.

As for the price of $199, I can't complain much either. Granted the "cheapest" Upconverting HD-DVD players from Toshiba are retailing for about $380-500 (depending on store), so the biggest advantage from going by way of the 360 is that you can play games as well. Compare that to Sony's ONLY Blu-Ray player on the market, listed at $1000, that plays sub-par renders of movies (due to poor codecs and the lack of studio pushes for better transfers)... And the 360 isn't that bad of a deal for 1080p movies...

1. There's no HDMI in the HD-DVD add-on, so when all the studios activate ICT, you're screwed.

2. Where can you find a TV that's compatible with 1080p from component cables?

3. There's new BD movies coming from Warner Bros (among others) using the superior codecs.

 

[YSSMAN]

@ Tornado ...I wouldn't jump to conclusions too fast, but it is tough to say a "ton" of people will. Microsoft would have had an easier time marking up the price of the 360 with built-in HD-DVD drives, but even then, it isn't necessiarily their necks on the line here. More than anything, it is Toshiba that would be more worried about how well these are going to sell, as they are argueably one of the few ways they would be able to combat the Blu-Ray setup in the PS3, hopefully taking away from the regular Blu-Ray players as well.

...I'd predict that there are people who are going to "wait and see" with the format war, myself included, as HDTVs still need to catch-up with 1080p support. Granted being the part-time techie that I am, I'd love to have the HD-DVD drive, but I can wait.

---

1. There's no HDMI in the HD-DVD add-on, so when all the studios activate ICT, you're screwed.

2. Where can you find a TV that's compatible with 1080p from component cables?

3. There's new BD movies coming from Warner Bros (among others) using the superior codecs.

1) Noted, but I believe many studios are still on the fence with ICT. Added to that, from what I understand the technology is still a few years away, and by that time we should be on the XBOX 720...

2) As of right now, where are you going to find an HDTV that can produce a 1080p setup at a reasonable price? Its all a bunch of flash, IMO, so most people are going to be happy with the "standard" 720p or 1080i that their systems are going to pump out. Will people be able to sell the difference? Maybe, maybe not... Depends on how hard you are looking... Me? Maybe. Mom and Dad? Certainly not!

3) I'm glad someone is working on better codecs for the movies. Sony dropped the ball with the majority of their DVDs, the only other good titles comming from MGM with the James Bond series...

 

[Tornado]

...I wouldn't jump to conclusions too fast, but it is tough to say a "ton" of people will.

Quite frankly, I don't think I am jumping to conclusions. Every single console add-on ever (except maybe the Sega Power Base Converter and Super Gameboy/GBA Player; and ever-so-maybe the Sega CD/Genesis module for the Pioneer Laseractive and PC-Engine CD) has failed miserably. The PS2 HDD, N64 HDD, Pocketstation (which technically qualifies), Famicom Disk System, Sega CD/CDX/JVC X'Eye, Sega 32X, Nintendo Sattellaview, Sega Mega Modem, Atari Jaguar CD (which mostly failed because the system blew in general) and Saturn Net-Link all failed. And they all did more than the HD-DVD drive does, and also promised not to essentially be forced out of usage by restrictive DRM (which is estimated by some to happen within three years). And don't take this post as a pro-Blu-Ray rant for Sony either, as I personally hate both of the new formats and still feel they are unnecessary, and actually would beleive that the HD-DVD drive is a better idea for consumers if you could play games on it.