FITT challenge. Viper Strike Closed Congratulations to Lap; Lionheart2113 & Drivers choice Xande1959

[Otaliema]

The DvG challenge was supposed to be short and quick. I was doing it only as a bridge between better competitions. If anyone wants to run another competition I would gladly hold off.

For the DvG challenge instead of trying to find the perfect track I'll have each tester run a lap in each car stock and use that as the handicap.

@Otaliema, sorry for the delay in responding (because rallycross ). Sorry

No worries, sometimes a short challenges turns into a long plan cause it just works out that way, you have been at it for a while so if your ready to rock n roll fire up the thread.

 

[DolHaus]

I think I'm nearly ready sorting out the groups for a big contest, just need to get the final group balanced

 

[Lionheart2113]

I think I'm nearly ready sorting out the groups for a big contest, just need to get the final group balanced

A big contest? I hope I've got the funds to test it! Would one of the groups only involve those who have yet to get a podium, like @Motor City Hami Miata challenge? I thought that was a fantastic way to get some more tuners into it.
I was trying to think of some incentive to get some more testers, but with PD not allowing car gifting I'm struggle coming up with anything.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

A big contest? I hope I've got the funds to test it! Would one of the groups only involve those who have yet to get a podium, like @Motor City Hami Miata challenge? I thought that was a fantastic way to get some more tuners into it.
I was trying to think of some incentive to get some more testers, but with PD not allowing car gifting I'm struggle coming up with anything.

I have enough funds, time is questionable although I will likely test again.

 

[Lionheart2113]

I have enough funds, time is questionable although I will likely test again.

Big plans for summer vacation coming up?

 

[Woodski_427]

I was trying to think of some incentive to get some more testers, but with PD not allowing car gifting I'm struggle coming up with anything.

That's the killer. I'd love to have had a go with the Vipers on Trial Mountain but even if I could eek out the driving time setting up 15 cars is a significant task. One can only assume it's all about the micro-transactions...

Anyway, another good contest chaps 👍

 

[Lionheart2113]

That's the killer. I'd love to have had a go with the Vipers on Trial Mountain but even if I could eek out the driving time setting up 15 cars is a significant task. One can only assume it's all about the micro-transactions...

Anyway, another good contest chaps 👍

Totally agree. To be fair I started testing cars as soon as the tunes came out, but kept a close eye on if a tuner decided to change anything. With large challenges like that one, maybe a rule should be put in place such as...tune posted, tune can't be changed...unless there was an error. Up to the FITT gentlemen of course...just a thought. I have loads of them, but very few turn into anything good!

 

[Otaliema]

Yeah some of these challenges are getting large turn outs in the tuners area but low turn outs in the testers department I think that's mainly due to time investment. I've been sticking to shorter tracks around 80 second lap times to help keep the tester drive time down.
Also track choice is big popular tracks get better turn outs on testing.

 

[DolHaus]

A big contest? I hope I've got the funds to test it! Would one of the groups only involve those who have yet to get a podium, like @Motor City Hami Miata challenge? I thought that was a fantastic way to get some more tuners into it.
I was trying to think of some incentive to get some more testers, but with PD not allowing car gifting I'm struggle coming up with anything.

It will be a 3 group thing, all the cars are cheap and cheerful (20-60k), even the race cars (200-260k). I'm thinking of making the lower group (CS 420pp) ABS optional, the middle group (SM 550pp) could easily be a group for those who haven't had a podium, the higher group has yet to be decided (SS 590pp).

What are opinions on another two track challenge similar to the WRX/EVO battle? Personally I like them as it stops cars becoming too focussed and specialised but I'll only run it that way if people like the idea

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Big plans for summer vacation coming up?

Unfortunately no, this is busy season; late nights and boss goes away leaving me alone. If there is plenty of time to test I will be more than happy to. Just depends on how fast the next challenge begins.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Unfortunately no, this is busy season; late nights and boss goes away leaving me alone. If there is plenty of time to test I will be more than happy to. Just depends on how fast the next challenge begins.

Yeah, my time might be a little constricted as well depending on the timeline for the next challenge. Wheels up in 2 weeks and 6 days...except not to China for work...more like Malta for vacation!

 

[Otaliema]

It will be a 3 group thing, all the cars are cheap and cheerful (20-60k), even the race cars (200-260k). I'm thinking of making the lower group (CS 420pp) ABS optional, the middle group (SM 550pp) could easily be a group for those who haven't had a podium, the higher group has yet to be decided (SS 590pp).

What are opinions on another two track challenge similar to the WRX/EVO battle? Personally I like them as it stops cars becoming too focussed and specialised but I'll only run it that way if people like the idea

if you want to to two tracks do one or two groups only to keep the number of entrants down. Make sure you pick two complementing, short, popular tracks as people will be doing hundreds of laps during testing. Will also need much longer period of testing than the normal 7-10 days. more like 14-21 days of testing due to sheer volume of driving required, and time investment. say 10 tuners lap time average of 85 seconds per lap for both tracks. average of 12 laps per tester. 15 minutes of set up and track switching time for each car. so 24 laps per car at 85 seconds average. 34 minutes of driving+15 minutes set up time 49 minutes per car. 490 minutes to test the the group, 8.1 hours of testing for one group. vs 5.3 hours for one track with the same set up.
Not to mention keep track of a 3 group 2 track challenge is a PITA

 

[DolHaus]

if you want to to two tracks do one or two groups only to keep the number of entrants down. Make sure you pick two complementing, short, popular tracks as people will be doing hundreds of laps during testing. Will also need much longer period of testing than the normal 7-10 days. more like 14-21 days of testing due to sheer volume of driving required, and time investment. say 10 tuners lap time average of 85 seconds per lap for both tracks. average of 12 laps per tester. 15 minutes of set up and track switching time for each car. so 24 laps per car at 85 seconds average. 34 minutes of driving+15 minutes set up time 49 minutes per car. 490 minutes to test the the group, 8.1 hours of testing for one group. vs 5.3 hours for one track with the same set up.
Not to mention keep track of a 3 group 2 track challenge is a PITA

Yeah I've been avoiding long tracks in favour of the shorter ones
Tsukuba/Eiger Norwand for one group
Big Willow and Cape Ring south for another
The third has yet to be decided

 

[Ronald6]

^^ Agreed. If you (@DolHaus) are going to set up a threee class challenge, please keep it to one track per class, or make the testing period extended.

If you're not going to be ready within the week I'll start mine off.

If you are going to be ready sign me up as the first tester.

***
Edit:
Lightbulb! Since I'm having the testers run a stock lap in each car they could choose their own track or multiple tracks. Tuners would have to set up the cars not for the track I choose but a general tune to handle whatever the testers choose. Yes/no? Shut up Ron and quit bothering us?

 

[DolHaus]

^^ Agreed. If you (@DolHaus) are going to set up a threee class challenge, please keep it to one track per class, or make the testing period extended.

If you're not going to be ready within the week I'll start mine off.

If you are going to be ready sign me up as the first tester.

It could easily be condensed down into a one track per class if thats the general consensus, I'm not really that fussed as long as the cars and tracks go together well 👍

 

[Ronald6]

Or an extended testing period. Whichever.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Testing could also be handled the way I did in the Hot Hatch Challenge, ask for completed tunes only and if changes need to be made, post that you are changing and why. Tag the Host and any testers listed in that class so that they will be aware a change was made.

Edit: Something like this


Deadlines:
All tunes must be posted before midnight, where ever you are in the world, April 19. Any tune posted after the deadline will NOT be eligible. Changes to tune, if needed, must be done before the deadline, changes will NOT be allowed after. If a change is needed, PLEASE tag myself and all testers for said class in a post informing of the change (thank you)
Testing will officially begin on the 21st of April, all reviews should be posted before midnight April 30. If testing is started early, be aware that no tune is official until the deadline for tuning.

 

[Otaliema]

***
Edit:
Lightbulb! Since I'm having the testers run a stock lap in each car they could choose their own track or multiple tracks. Tuners would have to set up the cars not for the track I choose but a general tune to handle whatever the testers choose. Yes/no? Shut up Ron and quit bothering us?

Tht would make handicapping rather hard as the handicap needs to be set in the track for testing. Cause the track choice greatly affects the time difference between the cars.

@DolHaus two tracks should be ok but reduce the classes to two. Set one as a spec group with a minimum cars to chose from so that's it more or less which car do you like better as far as a tuner goes. Is my personal rec 3 groups 2 tracks is a bit much even with an extended testing period it would reduce the number of testers in one of the groups, as we saw in the STi vs evo. Challenge the pro spec had two testers total.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

just some general points that I might add. granted i have only participated in 2 challenges but maybe a fresh look can help.

1. for a "true tuner" challenge it would make more sense (at least to me) to have just one car and one track. that way you are getting the best out of that car in that environment and you aren't having to sacrifice any part of the setup for other variables.

2. for a multi track challenge I think it would be more beneficial to have a PP limit and a list of cars to choose from. that way tuners can judge what car might fit the tracks given and tune accordingly. That way you are trying to get the best 600pp car and it can be more usable online and in actual racing and we can have some cars that have more longevity than just these challenges. I would not have more than 4 or 5 cars on that list though. for example, a drivetrain challenge, price challenge, or added power vs stock power challenge. those wouldn't need more than 4 cars on the list except for the drivetrain challenge.

3. In the most recent challenge (viper) there was a lot of extra money spent between the cars with all the options given such as rim size, body rigidity, aero choices, mirrors, etc. I maybe saved close to 100K by ordering the cars the best I could in terms of parts before testing but still spent a lot just switching similar parts around. I propose having a bit more of a limit on part availability.

3a. Now power and weight parts aren't really a concern because you buy them and can switch them around indefinitely. Only allowing one change will go a long way towards making it more easy for testers. being able to separate cars by wing/no wing, rigidity/no rigidity, or tire size only will help immensely with cost, time, and ease of testing.

3b. Perhaps we can list aero as aero and not the near limitless variety available. I may be wrong but when it comes to wings, I believe the choice you make is purely cosmetic. Once you put one on I think only the look changes and the adjustments stay the same. I haven't seen one wing offer more or less downforce than another in my tuning so far.

4. I really like the idea of a no podium winner challenge to bring in new people. it would be a simple challenge with one car and one track to not be as intimidating for newer people. it would be nice to have the best tuners as testers too.

 

[Lionheart2113]

@ImToLegitToQuit
There are some pretty good points in there. You are right, ordering them in the viper challenge saved me a lot of money as well, and no matter the spoiler, I highly doubt that there are any differences either. Only cosmetic as you stated. I think we need testers from all types of backgrounds, wheels/controller, alien/rookie, pink with purple spots, more testers the better...might drive @Otaliema up the wall if he has to add to the spreadsheet, but I think that would be a great thing for all of us. (The more testers, not Otaliema pulling his hair out) The "new comers" challenge was a brilliant way to bring in more tuners with different styles and willingness to learn or surprise us!

 

[Ronald6]

Tht would make handicapping rather hard as the handicap needs to be set in the track for testing. Cause the track choice greatly affects the time difference between the cars.

The tuners would need to make a general tune, not intended for a single track. Each tester would pick one or more tracks and test the two cars stock to establish the handicap on their chosen track/s. Then the tester would run each tuned car on their chosen track/s.

I think this is a good way to test an 'open track' style of challenge so each tester can use whatever track/s they are most comfortable on (or for whatever reason they choose a track). I'm trying to remove the necessity of assigning a track in a challenge and give testers more freedom.

Opinions?

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

The tuners would need to make a general tune, not intended for a single track. Each tester would pick one or more tracks and test the two cars stock to establish the handicap on their chosen track/s. Then the tester would run each tuned car on their chosen track/s.

I think this is a good way to test an 'open track' style of challenge so each tester can use whatever track/s they are most comfortable on (or for whatever reason they choose a track). I'm trying to remove the necessity of assigning a track in a challenge and give testers more freedom.

Opinions?

I kind of like that Idea because everyone has their favorite track and will get the most out of the car. The only issue might be that a car that excels at Le sarthe might do terribly at tskuba and the tuner has no control over the testers conditions.

 

[Ronald6]

The conditions would be the same across the board: all aids off except ABS 1, test offline in arcade / time trial mode, grip real.

The only condition that would change would be the track. And yes that would mean that one car would do well on one track and another on another track.

I think this would actually help both the testers and tuners. Testers will get 'home ground' to test on and tuners will get feedback not only from a wide range of testers, but from testers who are more comfortable and from a wider range of tracks.
Win/win.

 

[xande1959]

@ImToLegitToQuit
his commentary on the 2nd paragraph would car with 600 PP free choice but had to have weight limit might be 1,200 kg free choice. 'd have a salad of cars, would be fun.👍

 

[DolHaus]

The tuners would need to make a general tune, not intended for a single track. Each tester would pick one or more tracks and test the two cars stock to establish the handicap on their chosen track/s. Then the tester would run each tuned car on their chosen track/s.

I think this is a good way to test an 'open track' style of challenge so each tester can use whatever track/s they are most comfortable on (or for whatever reason they choose a track). I'm trying to remove the necessity of assigning a track in a challenge and give testers more freedom.

Opinions?

I like the idea but it sounds like it would be incredibly difficult to find a true "winner", there are so many variables that could throw the result. If it was a single car challenge or two that were very closely spec'd it could work but if you are using two very different styles of car you would need to make sure the tracks picked appealed equally to both car. If the majority of testers picked high speed circuits then Goliath would win, if the majority picked tight handling circuits then David would be favourite.
Its a great idea but I don't think this is the contest to showcase it with 👍

 

[Ronald6]

What other contest would it work with? I think the handicap set on the testers track would close the high speed vs technical gap.

I also intended this to be a quick and easy challenge with less of one winner with the fastest time or highest DC and more that every tuner who enters gets better and more varied reviews for their tunes.

I am also toying with the idea of breaking the DC (drivers choice) points into a few catagories such as Easy to drive / Matches my style / Fun / Fastest (which is what the lap times are for).

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

What other contest would it work with? I think the handicap set on the testers track would close the high speed vs technical gap.

I also intended this to be a quick and easy challenge with less of one winner with the fastest time or highest DC and more that every tuner who enters gets better and more varied reviews for their tunes.

I am also toying with the idea of breaking the DC (drivers choice) points into a few categories such as Easy to drive / Matches my style / Fun / Fastest (which is what the lap times are for).

I kind of think that DC already covers all of that. That's why it's a separate DC score not contributing to the fastest lap time. It basically says that this car is not the fastest but I like it because it fits my driving style and was fun to drive.

I think that the DC score + lap time + short review covers everything that you are wanting to add.

what @DolHaus is saying is that with the system you are suggesting it allows for a kind of dice roll affect to determine the outcome.

I see what you are saying with the base lap in the stock car and then averaging the minus times across the tracks to see which car had the best over all improvement. It can just cause an undesired outcome. an example would be that the long gears in the factory car would suit le sarthe or spa really well and then the tuned gears would top out too soon on a long track like those. So the stock car would by default be better regardless of how well the tuned car handles. Without knowing where a car is going to be, it's very hard to measure how well it performed.

it's not that i'm saying your idea is bad or anything, i think it just leaves too much to chance for there to be a winner and too hard to find a tune that is better than the others.

 

[DolHaus]

What other contest would it work with? I think the handicap set on the testers track would close the high speed vs technical gap.

I also intended this to be a quick and easy challenge with less of one winner with the fastest time or highest DC and more that every tuner who enters gets better and more varied reviews for their tunes.

I am also toying with the idea of breaking the DC (drivers choice) points into a few catagories such as Easy to drive / Matches my style / Fun / Fastest (which is what the lap times are for).

It would work if you were using cars that had roughly similar abilities and strengths but wouldn't if the cars have a massive difference in style.
Lets take Circuit de la Sarthe and Eiger Norwand as our example tracks, if more drivers choose Eiger then the lightweight will have a massive advantage in terms of time and score and the big power car will end up being unfairly represented. Conversely if more drivers go for LeMans then the big power car will be more favoured and the lightweight will end up looking like a waste of time.
I just worry about tuners having their time wasted because the car they chose was unsuitable because of something they couldn't control. I know I'd be pissed if I built a car that was good on 90% of circuits but then got tested on the other 10% and poorly ranked as a result.

 

[Ronald6]

@ImToLegitToQuit, well said, I will use the simple but effective DC/Fastest lap/Review system. No need to fix something that isn't broken.

As far as the 'free track choice,' I could limit some of the longer tracks so the cars don't top out (such as la'Sarth without chicanes). Most tracks would work, I don't think either car would top out stock on Nordy. (I'll test that tonight) But the 'dice roll' I kind of like. It will give the tuners a better idea where people are using their cars. If they had chosen to tune for the most common track then more people would use their car.

Lightbulb!
I could break the challenge into two segments. Tune, review. Next challenge (@DolHaus 's). Then re-tune and re-review. This would give the tuners a chance to improve a tune based on reviewer input. We could keep revisiting this challenge in between other challenges until tuners have gotten to the point where it couldn't improve. Or re-tune for a game update. ???

 

[Otaliema]

@ImToLegitToQuit
There are some pretty good points in there. You are right, ordering them in the viper challenge saved me a lot of money as well, and no matter the spoiler, I highly doubt that there are any differences either. Only cosmetic as you stated. I think we need testers from all types of backgrounds, wheels/controller, alien/rookie, pink with purple spots, more testers the better...might drive @Otaliema up the wall if he has to add to the spreadsheet, but I think that would be a great thing for all of us. (The more testers, not Otaliema pulling his hair out) The "new comers" challenge was a brilliant way to bring in more tuners with different styles and willingness to learn or surprise us!

I expanded the master sheet to support 20/10 tuners/testers so unless we get a record turn out in both areas it wont be an issue.

Lightbulb!
I could break the challenge into two segments. Tune, review. Next challenge (@DolHaus 's). Then re-tune and re-review. This would give the tuners a chance to improve a tune based on reviewer input. We could keep revisiting this challenge in between other challenges until tuners have gotten to the point where it couldn't improve. Or re-tune for a game update. ???

@CSLACR is tossing around an idea similar to that in the main FITT thread. would be interesting that's for sure.

The tuners would need to make a general tune, not intended for a single track. Each tester would pick one or more tracks and test the two cars stock to establish the handicap on their chosen track/s. Then the tester would run each tuned car on their chosen track/s.

I think this is a good way to test an 'open track' style of challenge so each tester can use whatever track/s they are most comfortable on (or for whatever reason they choose a track). I'm trying to remove the necessity of assigning a track in a challenge and give testers more freedom.

Opinions?

It would be interesting that's for sure. The stock sheet I have made wouldn't work for it but one could easily be made. The only way I can figure is the one with the most improved over stock average. as track time would be irrelevant for an open track challenge. I would say as base rule the final gear could be changed by the tester to accommodate the track they have chosen to drive.