Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by ApexVGear, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Dimebolt

    Dimebolt

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    Serious question....

    Do Polyphony "do" feedback ?

    Seems odd that a fix has been neglected for so long. Are there "home-brew" fixes for the clutch pedal? I've already invalidated my warranty, by modding the brake pedal, so more opening up of the pedals is not something I am too worried about. Put the GTEye spring in my brake and switched the original brake spring across to the clutch pedal. Maybe i should have left the original clutch pedal spring in there ?

    Will the game allow the clutch to be calibrated pre-race / game load ? I recall, with wheels like the DFGT, you should keep both accelerator and brake held down, fully, whilst the wheel calibrates, as it helps get a much finer gauge when racing ? Should the G27 clutch be fully depressed whilst the game / pre-race loads ?

    So many people on this thread, have great ideas and completely legitimate concerns. It's a shame that it's unlikely to ever get fixed.

    As far as the G27 is concerned ( i am using this wheel ) - is it because it's not really supported, other than it will work at a completely basic level with GT5, but it's not a wheel they'll ever consider worrying about because it's potentially cheap competition to thier own, very expensive wheel ?

    On top of a horrible clutch system, has anyone noticed - in GT6 - the rumble on the G27 is pretty weak ? I use level 10 force feedback, professional mode, with no Traction Control and no power steering, purely to jolt some more life into the wheel. Rumble strips hardly ever register and that's kinda unhelpful sometimes.

    Don't get me wrong, it controls lovely. So much fun to drive with the G27. Just a shame the clutch and gear shift don't compliment the wheel itself ( in GT5/6 ).
     
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  2. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    We need more of these...

    Same setup I use.

    From digiprost's thread:

     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
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  3. ApexVGear

    ApexVGear

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    Impressive. Especially impressive because he's adapted so well.

    Reminds me of all the time I put into adapting to the clutch of GT5.

    The longer, very deliberate unrealistic 100% pressed-to-the-floor holds on the clutch pedal demonstrate the problem I have with the Gran Turismo clutch model.

    I've never had to put so much "work" into any other clutch pedal, real or simulated.

    Because someone has taken the time to adapt to this and do so well is impressive...

    but it doesn't make the Gran Turismo clutch acceptable in any way.

    The top 20 on every Gran Turismo leaderboard could be using nothing but the stick and clutch...

    but it doesn't prove that the Gran Turismo clutch model works realistically.

    There are people using controllers that post impressive times...

    but that's not realistic at all, and I would never ditch my wheel for a controller.

    I DON'T ENJOY driving a clutch-operated car in Gran Turismo.

    I actually enjoy driving clutch-operated cars in Forza--it FEELS the way it should feel...

    Whether I'm trying to beat someone's time, or just take a car for a "drive" for the sheer fun of it.

    This a funny quote from a friend that just read through this thread, and his view of people talking about posting impressive times with the clutch...

    "Congratulations! Kaz has trained you to use the clutch in a totally unrealistic way that no professional driver would ever use. Proof that humans can be trained to do almost anything."

    Now, please answer these questions...

    1. Where is the "engage/disengage" point on your clutch pedal? Is it up near the top of the pedal travel, just like in most real, properly operating cars (and other simulators), or is it at the lower 75-80% of the pedal travel, near the floor, simulating a failing clutch master cylinder?

    2. When you mis-shift, does your copy of Gran Turismo go into neutral? Do think this is realistic? Does it not affect your perception and expectations of "realism" in any way? Do you feel even the slightest amount of apprehension when preparing to make a crucial shift?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
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  4. Ewok626

    Ewok626

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    I have adapted to the clutch. It really isn't that bad and I am a forza/iracing guy.
     
  5. CJDA9

    CJDA9

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    We SHOULDNT have to adapt to the damn clutch.
     
  6. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    Apex, you are truly a riddle to me, now that I added you to my FR list, its obvious that you can use the "broken" clutch.
    You are nipping at my heels on the Fit seasonal with manual clutch.

    I didn't bother to use the TH8RS for the BMW event as that only registers the gated box, no manual clutch.

    The main reason I trotted out the leader board results in previous post for myself, mrbasherman, and mahnegold is that I have no video equipment like digiprost to produce something like he did to back up my claim that its not "broken" for a few of us.

    So now your emphasis seems to have shifted from "broken", to people "adapting" to the broken clutch to make it work.

    Hell, last time I checked when back in a time long-long ago when I was 16 and my dad took me out to teach me how to drive a stick, I had to adapt to the damn thing, or the car wouldn't go.

    No doubt there are many who cannot work the the GT5/GT6 clutch, not discounting that.

    But in your case, may be its more to do with lack of tactile stimulus you get from the real thing?
    Similar to difference in effects of high-end motion rigs, vs static rigs..

    I might expect more from some of my PC-based sims that are now providing tactile feedback if you have the requisite arse vibrators to convey the signals to your posterior.

    For those that cannot get the clutch to work, does it happen more on upshifts than downshifts?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  7. CJDA9

    CJDA9

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    On any shift.... Look the clutch/miss shifting is a BIG problem for all of us who are used to a great transmissions like LFS. Stop posting lap times and or video's people. just because you can drive fast with a horrible simulation of miss shifting and a bad clutch. Some people amaze me.
     
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  8. mrbasher

    mrbasher Premium

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    I've read through most of the 8 pages here and there have been some good points from both sides... I've come to this conclusion:

    What looks to be getting overlooked by both "sides" is that:

    - Yes, GT5 and GT6 are ultra sensitive about clutch/accelerator/gear lever timing... But so is the REAL THING. Generally speaking, if a person did what caused the miss shifts in game in real life, as often as they likely do in game, their transmission would not last long.

    - Yes, people can drive with it the way it is, usually people that are good... But it's difficult to master for the MAJORITY of people.

    The consensus seems to be:

    One "side" believes it's not realistic for many reasons. One "side" believes it is realistic and that is why it's difficult.

    Often in simulation games, some realism needs to be lost or there will be a issues. I think this is one of those cases. I personally think it is in fact realistic. Remember, only a select few of us ever drive our cars the way we drive the ones in GT... This includes me. However, realistic doesn't always mean fun, and it doesn't always carry over well to a game.

    I'm not going to speak for anyone, at least I don't mean to. It seems those saying it does in fact work and is usable, may not be saying it shouldn't be changed. I'm not saying that... What I'm taking away from the comments is that it simply takes more effort.

    They simply need to loosen up the timing on it and all should be fine. That's how I see it. If people still can't use it, they need to not use the clutch or learn how. I know that seems harsh, but it's just my opinion. I will give you a personal example: I rarely use cars that aren't manual/clutch cars in GT. This is because I enjoy shifting, using the clutch and heel-toe. When I get into a car that allows me to use the gated shifter without the clutch, I find things much less fulfilling. It's uninteresting. This is despite the fact that it's HARDER to drive using the clutch.

    That's my 2 pennies.
     
  9. CJDA9

    CJDA9

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    I'm sorry if I seemed rude on that last post, it wasn't really directed towards anyone specifically mostly everyone. :lol:

    With the miss shifting problem it is almost impossible to drift without miss shifting. Not being able to shift up mid drift is something that had plagued me and others for a LONG time. Most drifters who use the clutch have to set up there transmission in a way where they have to leave it in one gear during said corner, not shifting until the exit. This limits the use of the full manual trans greatly, if the rpms are in to high of a range you will simply get a N because you didn't let off the gas ALL THE WAY during your shift.
     
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  10. mrbasher

    mrbasher Premium

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    No need to apologize. :) We all have an idea of what "right" would be and it's always going to be hard to meet such varied expectations.

    I can almost gurantee you that we have all, even the best of us, cursed at the game when missing a shift. AND WISHED IT WORKED DIFFERENTLY.

    I just don't want it entirely nerfed. I'll keep my fingers crossed they find a happy medium, if they can.
     
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  11. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    Well said, completely agree! :tup: I think we all have good intentions in mind.

    ..and maybe sometime I'll hit you up for some drift advice CJDA9, I'm not too good at that yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  12. Bluntified

    Bluntified

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    As long at it's not bouncing, or too close to the rev limiter, it'll shift fine mid-drift. I only use the close ratio transmission, no fine tuning on my end - end up making it worse doing if I do it individually (I suck at tuning it :lol:)

    I get away with 80% clutch 20% throttle, I do wish is was more forgiving say 60/40 (clutch to throttle). I spent a few hours the other day finding the biting points, it seems they're different for different cars (not by much though.

    All in all, I guess it's all these years only playing GT, made me adapt to it. It use to be way more crippled than the now (Prologue). I drive an automatic w/paddle shifter IRL so I don't have much to compare to.
     
  13. panjandrum

    panjandrum

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    While I too would love to see the clutch fixed, I highly doubt it will ever be done. I think PD has "lost their way" since GT4 basically. I mean, I love this series, and hope it continues and succeeds, but nobody but the least objective of fanboys could ever defend PD for spending time on stuff like "correct star maps" when we still have broken clutches and standard cars. It's simply indefensible from a rational point of view. And yeah, the stars look great, I love them. I would love a clutch that freaking worked like a clutch a lot more though...

    The sim-shifters also allow for MUCH quicker shifting than any real-world manual that I've ever driven. I have a feeling that PD might think they are doing us a favor by setting things up so that if you shift much, much faster than you could in a real car, it doesn't work. It's annoying, because obviously it's very difficult to artificially force yourself to shift more slowly than you can. Combine this with the idiotic "on/off" clutch and it makes manual shifting a real pain.

    Mostly, I shift with paddles if the real car has paddles, and I just shift with the h-pattern and don't use the clutch in cars with a traditional manual box. Sometimes, if I'm in a race where I'm dominating and then I'll go ahead and use the clutch too, since I can probably afford a mistake or two.
     
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  14. simpleskin

    simpleskin

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    This is the approach I'm taking with GT6. I used to use the clutch most of the time with GT5. For some reason I find myself missing the the shift and ending up in neutral alot more with GT6. I would love a realistic clutch!

    -J
     
  15. ApexVGear

    ApexVGear

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    Yes, I can adapt and certainly use the Gran Turismo clutch, just like I adapted to my own car and drove it for four days as the master cylinder failed. Of course, in the final day, it completely failed in about 45 minutes, and I had to wait and pump it to get any kind of operation--or it would be stuck in a gear, and you'd have to rock the car while wiggling the stick to get it to disengage.

    The point is, even if I can use it and post good lap times, I don't really enjoy it.

    Given the choice...

    Drive the Mazda 787B at LeMans in Gran Turismo?

    Drive the Mazda 787B at LeMans in Forza 4 (though the transmission upgrade is wrong and gives you six gears)?

    I'll take Forza 4!

    It just FEELS better, more realistic, and it's FUN to drive.

    In Gran Turismo... Not as much fun. Not as realistic.

    ...and honestly, because Gran Turismo is "special" to me, as I have said, I wish, at the very least, I felt the same way about both titles, or even Gran Turismo a little more because of all the cars you can drive, and... it is Gran Turismo!
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  16. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    Ok, I think the horse has been well flogged.

    I understand the rationale behind your views and respect them. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  17. BWX

    BWX

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    I can use the clutch the way it is, that doesn't mean it isn't horribly broken in GT6. For career mode I use it on almost every single car that has a real manual shifter in real life.

    Just because someone can use it, that has nothing at all to do with the fact that it is still messed up. Arguing that it is not messed up for that reason makes no sense.

    It's messed up! I can use it.. but it's still messed up and everyone knows it.
     
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  18. ApexVGear

    ApexVGear

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    Well, I think the "discussion" was good in a way--clarifies how I feel, and what this thread is really about.

    I mean, this is Gran Turismo. It shouldn't be like this. It's like the universe is out of wack or something.

    It's like my "first love" (for a simulator anyway) had a few face lifts... and she came back with a third eye!
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
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  19. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    But you have to adapt to everything else, all sims are different. What is a real pain is the selection filtering causing the gear to stay in neutral. Specifically, I'm talking about the 1st-to-2nd timer, the throttle check and the wheelspin issue.

    Drop the crusade against the clutch, and realise it's the shifting that's the biggest problem here. People want PD to get the feedback, we should at least get it right first!
     
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  20. Mahnegold

    Mahnegold

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    The whole discussion amuses me somewhat. What is "the one and only realistic clutch"?

    I just had to drive a company car (Ford) for about 1400 kilometers. When I was back home and used to this clutch, I jumped into my Mitsibishi and almost stalled the engine because this clutch was so much different. So which was the right clutch? The one from the Ford or the one from the Mitsubishi?

    It was also mentioned, that it is unrealistic that the gearbox goes to neutral when experiencing a mis-shift. So let's imagine I am in 2nd gear and want to shift up. So I move the stick through NEUTRAL and try to put it into 3rd gear. I do it wrong (e.g. pressing the clutch not enough) and as a result I am not able to get the 3rd gear in. Where is the gearbox? I would say, it is still in NEUTRAL. Where else shout it be? Still in 2nd? Or in 4th?


    I would really love to know, who of you really use a manual transmission in real life. I still say it can be frustrating when experience mis-shifts in GT5. I said that before. And the clutch handling can be tricky sometimes. But it is just not "totally unrealistic" or "broken".
     
  21. Davis

    Davis

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    I do. I would say the worst part about it is starting from a stop, smoothly. The friction point is just so far off that I have to rev the engine up to 5k (in game) so I don't stall. A lot of people's issues is the lack of feedback the pedal gives, but there's not amount of programming that's going to make that happen. :lol:
     
  22. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    So maybe once the online stuff gets a bit more developed we should set up two time trials that use the same base car that has a GT3, GT300 or GT500 counterpart.

    Cars would be run bone stock, on a fairly shift-intensive course like Ascari, Nordschleife.
    The reason for this is to compare the shift-ability of street stock drive-train against race drive-train.

    Participants would register type of wheel/shifter used...
    ...comment which sectors were most problematic shifting-wise, etc.
    That might be a starting point...

    Just a thought...trying to get the car out of the ditch by popping the clutch since it won't slip :sly:.
    The more factual data we gather, the better, for any potential fix.

    Even better would be if PD setup a manual clutch only seasonal...
    ...I am sure they already analyze the back-end of seasonal data to tweak physics, etc.

    I would also be very interested in the GTA finalists input regarding this.
    Many are GTP members with more virtual/real track experience than most.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  23. TheCrazySwede

    TheCrazySwede

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    1. Modern cars have pretty advanced synchro's. Given that you don't correctly dis-engage the clutch before shifting, you wouldn't be "still in NEUTRAL" as you put it. You'd be doing what is called "grinding the gears." This puts all the effort of shifting entirely up to your synchros and it can cause some serious harm to your drive-train. Keep in mind that some older cars didn't have the synchro's and clutches we have today. This meant shifting without both, having to match the speed of your engine with the rest of your drive-train in order to properly accelerate and advance gears without causing harm to your vehicle. Again, even in the cars of ol', you wouldn't be "still in NEUTRAL." Proper shifting is an art-form and a technique that is easy to learn, but difficult to master. I suppose in that aspect, and that aspect alone, GT6's clutch mechanics are rather realistic, but fails to deliver it properly. Not only is the recurring mis-shifts an issue, but try down-shifting a manual transmission'd, rear-wheel drive vehicle when diving into a corner at high speeds in-game and then try to replicate it on a real track and you'll see what I mean. The whole "mis-shift into NEUTRAL" part isn't the only flawed aspect of GT's drive-train simulation.

    2. I would like to ask you the same, given the context of my first point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
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  24. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Just noticed that GT6 doesn't actually allow throttle overlap for changing down. Heel-toe rev matching kinda needs that freedom. GT5 wasn't like that, and I swear GT6 wasn't at first, either. Weird.
     
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  25. Proper282

    Proper282

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    Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but when you upgrade to the dog box if you put the g27 in 3rd for the rolling start you don't have to clutch for the gear changes. I did have a couple instances where I clutched in for a down shift by habit and it required me to use the clutch from then on. But I found if I used the paddles for a shift after that happened it would go back to "no clutch needed" shifting.

    Just thought I'd put it out there. Not sure if PD did that on purpose
     
  26. Davis

    Davis

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    Always been like that, it doesn't recognize the clutch until you use it. Doesn't depend on the transmission either.
     
  27. Proper282

    Proper282

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    Makes sense... I had never tried it until I had upgraded the trans
     
  28. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    yes I just noticed that, mrbasher also mentioned that to me earlier.
     
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  29. JogoAsobi

    JogoAsobi Premium

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    I am sure he will respond, but I have seen video of him on the track at Oschersleben.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  30. Mahnegold

    Mahnegold

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    2. As usual (in Europe and especially in Germany) I drive a car with manual transmission and ever did so. Automatic transmission is becoming more and more popular but still an expensive upgrade if you buy a new car. I believe that it is the other way round in America (maybe not the cost, but the preferred transmission style).

    1. What you said makes no sense to me at all (at least on this topic). When I am not able to engage a certain gear, I have to be in neutral as I pointed already out. Normal road cars have some kind of protection, that if the revs are to high in 2nd, I am not able (except with brutal force) to select the 1st gear. Reverse gear is a different story (when driving forward). And here again: When coming from "neutral" and being not able to select a gear, what do you think where the transmissioan still is? Right, in neutral. What consider you wrong with this statement? And what kind of car is the majority in GT5? Normal road cars...

    In GT5 I never experienced problems when de-selecting a gear. It is always when selecting another gear and not properly* pressing the clutch.

    *)not properly for the game's expected way of doing it.
     
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