FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Luminis]

The biggest problem with both GT5's and FM3's Ai is the same, though: They're friggin' slow if you're in a car that's equal to theirs, in terms of performance. Now, this is a bit more severe in GT5, as far as I am concerned, but I may have improved a bit inbetween both games.

Either way, both AIs aren't very brilliant when it comes to detecting the player's behaviour. Obviously, if you are where you are supposed to be and stay there, both work decently.
Now, T10 always mentioned how FM3's AI will 'learn' from your behaviour and adapt. They've often talked about the drivatar technology it's based on; the idea was that the AI would retaliate with aggressive behaviour when you were being aggressive towards them. This might be a reason as to why the AI seems a bit different to different players. My personal experience was a decent one with FM3, slightly better than GT5, at the very least.

But, in my opinion, both games could learn a thing or two (or more) from Shift 2's AI. It's faster, seems more dynamic and seems to have a better udnerstanding of actually battling for position.

 

[Hofstee]

Good point. I was thinking though during a replay the switch over can happen. From in game race quality to photomode quality but it seems we have race replay vs photo travel. I know that the car models get a bump up but this is a 2D wheel face texture to a fully modeled wheel face and bolts. Not really a biggy for me, just pointing something out I came across playing the game

That's not a bad idea at all. Sort of like what TF2 does with the Source recorder. I wouldn't mind an option for instant replay or a high detail replay that takes a bit of time to render.

 

[Pierced Lead]

"Realistic Damage"? Neither have very realistic damage and the only reason why Forza gets the "better damage" award is 'cause the paint can be scrapped off more.

I know neither simulate real life damage properly, but personally
(as in, my opinion ) I'd rather have that pre-rendered paint-scrap damage than the melt-in-your-face i.e. GT5's.
As for mechanical damage, I can't really comment on which is better, but inmyopinion I feel GT5's was added on (which it was later on in an update) and is not a central part of the experience like Forza's is.

P.S. I used 'relatively', as in, comparing the two games only.

Tire physics goes to GT5 in my opinion, 'cause they actually researched tire behavior.

Sources? Even if it does simulate tire physics better, the fact you can't change the tire settings can put people in doubt.

Car Selection is a matter of opinion. Yes, Forza has some cool cars, but so does GT5. And if thinking, "Forza has Porsche" that's true, but not everyone likes Porsche.

I like Porsche, Forza has it, so inmyopinion Forza has a better selection - I'd rather give off all the extra MX5's, Skylines and Lancers for Porsche.

I'd also like to mention that I am not basing my opinion on just Porsche, but there are lots of other models (not manufacturers) which do not make sense to not be in GT and they aren't there.

Consistent graphics doesn't count. GT has weather and day/night and up to 16 cars on the track at the same time and everything has to run at 1080p. Forza has none of that, so you can't say "Forza has more consistent graphics" 'cause there's no even comparison there.

Yes, it does count. Better graphics =/= consistent graphics. GT5 has the former, but not the latter, standard cars and jagged edges and whatnot.

I think you mean More tracks we'd like to see in GT5. Most of Forza's tracks are real world tracks, but at least GT has better fantasy tracks.

No, Forza 3 does have more tracks. And it's your opinion GT has better fantasy tracks.

I like GT5's online better. I like being able to meat up and just cruise around the track without worrying about laps or anything. And, I've actually had less people trying to spin me out and drive the wrong way in GT5's online lobbies.

Your opinion

And again, I feel GT5's online has not fully unleashed it's potential, otherwise it could be the better experience, but until then I think Forza has the better online inmyopinion

 

[G.T.Ace]

So GT5's on rails A.I hitting you is excusable but FM3's dynamic A.I hitting you because you gave them no where else to go is some how a point in GT5's favour?

Oh, and on simulation damage, you won't have a cripple car, you will have a car that you cannot win in.

Well, one slightly harder impact with GT5's full damage and you have the same issue.

 

[GumShoe]

^ So they can dodge a stationary car, wow. That's normal racing conditions...
Explain why the combi vans constantly try to pit you on the top gear challenge?

Obviously the AI can be shown to be good or bad, so while there are AI smarts in both games, neither of them are perfect, and neither of them really have awareness of a player car approaching from the side or rear. I generally find Forza a little better.

 

[Luminis]

Well, one slightly harder impact with GT5's full damage and you have the same issue.

Does GT5 even simulate damage to your aero? Damaging that in Forza could ruin your lap times with ease... Never noticed somethign similar in GT5.

 

[SuperShouden]

So GT5's on rails A.I hitting you is excusable but FM3's dynamic A.I hitting you because you gave them no where else to go is some how a point in GT5's favour?



Oh, and on simulation damage, you won't have a cripple car, you will have a car that you cannot win in.

Okay....what and what?

No, I'm saying that GT5's A.I. is dynamic and aggressive and Forza's A.I. has two settings: on rails and really stupid. GT5's AI's is at least aware of you where as Forza's isn't.

And the second part....is just...WHAT? It does matter if you can win or not. You can still drive away from a 200mph crash into the wall

 

[FyreandIce]

Well, one slightly harder impact with GT5's full damage and you have the same issue.

There's a huge difference between the A.I going around a track blockage and the A.I giving racing room.

In my GT5 experience, the A.I doesn't care where you are when you're racing. FM3 is much different. If you get down the inside into a corner, they will give you room to pass on the inside. Likewise, if you're on the outside, they won't just push you into the dirt.

 

[SuperShouden]

There's a huge difference between the A.I going around a track blockage and the A.I giving racing room.

In my GT5 experience, the A.I doesn't care where you are when you're racing. FM3 is much different. If you get down the inside into a corner, they will give you room to pass on the inside. Likewise, if you're on the outside, they won't just push you into the dirt.

That's not what I've seen in Forza. In Forza, it's more like the AI has three or four different lines, and it'll follow one of those randomly. I mean, yeah, I've seen Forza's AI take a corner wide enough so I can slip by, but, more times than not, it keeps that inside door locked up tight.

The video was showing that the AI in GT5 will try to take avoid really bad crashes and will go so far as to making contact with another car or wall to do so. And the various lines the cars take to pass a blockage is more realistic. And...again...GT5 has 11-15 cars to deal with, plus weather, plus changing lighting...so...

Also, there needs to a PIT maneuver comparison with the AI I noticed that with Forza, the AI tends to fight it and will just counter steer out of it. The AI in GT will do the same, but as soon as it realizes it can't save it, it reacts very differently. The GT AI seem to recover faster.

Also, I've SEEN the GT5 AI wait to come onto the track after an accident whereas Forza's AI will just merge onto the track immediately.

I'm in favor of GT5's AI. I've forgotten how smart and reactive it can be and also how insane it can be. And I don't mean "hey look mom, no brakes" in a wall insane, either.

 

[t.o.]

Okay....what and what?

No, I'm saying that GT5's A.I. is dynamic and aggressive and Forza's A.I. has two settings: on rails and really stupid. GT5's AI's is at least aware of you where as Forza's isn't.

And the second part....is just...WHAT? It does matter if you can win or not. You can still drive away from a 200mph crash into the wall

You know sometimes I wonder if you're getting confused to which games you're playing because alot of what you're typing here doesn't make sense , like this.

Does GT5 even simulate damage to your aero? Damaging that in Forza could ruin your lap times with ease... Never noticed somethign similar in GT5.

I've posted this before and will post again. In my experience , which was alot of GT5 racing and a ton of HEAVY aero dependent NASCAR action GT5 does not in ANY WAY try to simulate aero damage penalties. You can fly around the track with your front end crumpled up in your passenger side as you can with a clean car. You wont lose any speed or handling whatsoever.

In Forza you crash up your car you better pray to whoever you believe in that everyone else does too. I can't count how many races I've won/lost on account of just trying to keep my car clean to the end of the race.

Aero is VERY important in FM3. Wreck an LMP car in FM3 and the whole car changes in handling and speed. When it comes to the thrill of racing GT5 doesn't even come close.



I won the R1 LMP class of this race SOLELY on the fact that I managed my pits/damage/aero well.

"Realistic Damage"? Neither have very realistic damage and the only reason why Forza gets the "better damage" award is 'cause the paint can be scrapped off more.

Forza's damage is pretty realistic. At least as realistic as the manufacturers will allow. It's been stated MANY times that the only reason why you don't see things like engine blocks flying out and cars being totally ripped apart is because of licensing issues. So they're getting as close as they can without violating contracts. That being said what they have is great stuff. WELL beyond so called "scraped paint". They have crumpled parts and broken lights and more. They don't have damage looking like...

 

[arora]

I've posted this before and will post again. In my experience , which was alot of GT5 racing and a ton of HEAVY aero dependent NASCAR action GT5 does not in ANY WAY try to simulate aero damage penalties. You can fly around the track with your front end crumpled up in your passenger side as you can with a clean car. You wont lose any speed or handling whatsoever.

That depends on which damage setting is chosen in the lobby menu.

 

[SuperShouden]

I think now, I'll point out that GT5 is a Racing Sim/RPG and Forza is just a Racing Sim.

I do like Forza's career structure, but I also hate it. The calender's cool, but...I don't know. I wish it'd give more than three choices at a time.

Also...since they have all the Grand Am cars...they should get a Grand Am license and put all the Continental Tire and GT cars in the game...might as well.

 

[t.o.]

That depends on which damage setting is chosen in the lobby menu.

Don't know which game you are referring to but each game has different levels of damage. On the highest setting in GT5 in my observation there still is no Aero penalty. Whereas in FM3 there most certainly is at the highest damage level.

I don't recall but I'm almost certain that there is no way to damage your engine in GT5 other than to hit something. I don't think you can shift down and damage your engine. Whereas in FM3 you most certainly damage your engine like that as well as mess up your transmission and gears by shifting badly.

Something else I notice with FM3. Say you damage your engine pretty bad but you haven't done any aero damage. You can go in the pits and have your engine repaired BUT it will not perform as an engine that was never damaged during the race.

People may think this is trivial or unimportant but just about a year ago I watched a NASCAR race at Road America and the guy who came in first was the ONLY guy who crossed the line with an undamaged car. He managed to keep his car clean the whole race and that was a huge help in him winning the race. Damage DOES matter.

I think now, I'll point out that GT5 is a Racing Sim/RPG and Forza is just a Racing Sim.

I see GT5 as just a Driving Sim/RPG (and I hate RPGs) where as Forza is a Racing Sim/Car lover game. I just don't see GT5 as a racing sim.

 

[GumShoe]

I think now, I'll point out that GT5 is a Racing Sim/RPG and Forza is just a Racing Sim.

I don't see that. Where are the skills, classes etc? You can level up, but same with every other console racer. There's no penalty for racing better or worse, and there's nothing but winning cars and money.

I'd say Shift 1 was closer to an RPG, it had the aggression/precision streams, plus the badges for clean overtaking etc (i.e. skill improvement).

Can you provide evidence of what makes it feel like an RPG to you please?

Also, isn't it only in online mode, or at level 40 where you can experience mechanical damage in GT5? Can someone confirm because I didn't play GT5 online and certainly didn't go through to level 40.

 

[arora]

Don't know which game you are referring to but each game has different levels of damage. On the highest setting in GT5 in my observation there still is no Aero penalty. Whereas in FM3 there most certainly is at the highest damage level.

It should be obvious I was referring to gt5 seeing as this is what I quoted.

I've posted this before and will post again. In my experience , which was alot of GT5 racing and a ton of HEAVY aero dependent NASCAR action GT5 does not in ANY WAY try to simulate aero damage penalties. You can fly around the track with your front end crumpled up in your passenger side as you can with a clean car. You wont lose any speed or handling whatsoever.

I'll try to be more clear. If you have the damage set to maximum in gt5 you cannot fly around the track with your front end crumpled up in your passenger side as you can with a clean car. You would be forced to pit(unless you like driving very slow) because there is definitely a damage penalty that causes you to lose speed and handling. It may not be as aero specific as it is 'get that wrecked pile off the track' specific, so that everything is repaired. It's night and day damage, the only things I can think of in gt5 that are gradual or livable to stay on track with are loss of hp due to dirty oil or need of engine refresh(mileage dependent), and need of chassis refresh(not sure if that is only mileage dependent or increased by crashes).

If you are arguing that fm3's damage model is better then gt5's that is one thing but you shouldn't dismiss fact to enhance your view.

 

[SuperShouden]

I don't see that. Where are the skills, classes etc? You can level up, but same with every other console racer. There's no penalty for racing better or worse, and there's nothing but winning cars and money.

I'd say Shift 1 was closer to an RPG, it had the aggression/precision streams, plus the badges for clean overtaking etc (i.e. skill improvement).

Can you provide evidence of what makes it feel like an RPG to you please?

Also, isn't it only in online mode, or at level 40 where you can experience mechanical damage in GT5? Can someone confirm because I didn't play GT5 online and certainly didn't go through to level 40.

It has levels and, as you level up, more items become unlocked. It has parties (B-spec) that you can manage. It has classes: you take out a Viper into an arcade race and it'll pit you against a different set of cars than if you took a Mini Cooper.

Actually, B-spec mode is what really makes it an RPG. And that, I feel, is where GT is headed towards. Kaz even mentioned wanting to make it more of an MMO RPG where you could drive around a city and meet up with other people.

I see Forza becoming more and more of a hard core racing sim...well...not if MS insists on sticking with DVD ROM for their next system, but...still. Forza and GT are very different. And I've said it before: If you're gonna compare Forza and GT, you might as well toss in Shift 2 and all the other racing games with licensed cars and tracks.

 

[VXR]

Why is DVD an inhibitor to making a hardcore sim when presumably, all established hardcore sims come on DVD?

 

[Spagetti69]

Why is DVD an inhibitor to making a hardcore sim when presumably, all established hardcore sims come on DVD?

Might have something to do with the Xbox is doomed thread he started.

I don't know.

As for the RPG thing. If PD are going into the micro management area. Which Shouden seems to suggest. I think that will be the end of GT as we know it.

Personally I think they wont do it. Fans of RPG's have a far better selection to play than a GT rip off of the genre.
Most people are into GT for the driving simulation aspect. Not levelling up or getting suits which add +2 speed.

 

[GumShoe]

It has levels and, as you level up, more items become unlocked. It has parties (B-spec) that you can manage. It has classes: you take out a Viper into an arcade race and it'll pit you against a different set of cars than if you took a Mini Cooper.

I think you must be referring to B-Spec mode because "It has levels and, as you level up, more items become unlocked" is just about every game and "It has classes: you take out a Viper into an arcade race and it'll pit you against a different set of cars than if you took a Mini Cooper" is just about any serious racing game...

Even though this is a vs thread, I think one thing is clear: Both games cater to different audiences in different aspects and also appeal to the same audiences in others, so we should at least be glad we have things we like in whatever our game of preference is, it's just a pity we have to have two consoles to enjoy both of them.

And SuperShoulden, of course you can throw in Shift 2 et al to compare, the core of the experience is racing cars on a track with a realistic physics engine!

 

[Luminis]

It may not be as aero specific as it is 'get that wrecked pile off the track' specific, so that everything is repaired. It's night and day damage, the only things I can think of in gt5 that are gradual or livable to stay on track with are loss of hp due to dirty oil or need of engine refresh(mileage dependent), and need of chassis refresh(not sure if that is only mileage dependent or increased by crashes).

If you are arguing that fm3's damage model is better then gt5's that is one thing but you shouldn't dismiss fact to enhance your view.

From what you're discribing, GT5's damage model works in a pretty simple way: Your car is damaged, now it'll perform like crap.
What does Forza do, though: The body, aero, suspension, steering, engine and transmition can all be damaged seperately, according to the incident. It's also scalable. it's not like the parts of the car are either workign fine or damaged, they graduately take more damage and perform worse.

Also, even relatively weak collisions can cause the car to get damaged, both visually and mechanically, whereas, in GT5, even at maximum damage all that's going to happen it that "tooonk" noise.

If you're asking me, the mechanical damage model in FM3 is quite a bit more sophisticated than what GT5 has to offer.

Why is DVD an inhibitor to making a hardcore sim when presumably, all established hardcore sims come on DVD?

Because they can't contain enough data, I think... Too bad modern consoled don't have hard disk drives where you could just install a game. And it's not like that'd be usefull to decrease loading times anyways, for sure not. Too bad that hard disk drives are still way too expensive for that kind of application

 

[Bogie 19th]

Time to pull the "claim" card....

the only reason why Forza gets the "better damage" award is 'cause the paint can be scrapped off more.

If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them - from the opening post.

Tire physics goes to GT5 in my opinion, 'cause they actually researched tire behavior.

If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them - from the opening post.

so you can't say "Forza has more consistent graphics" 'cause there's no even comparison there.

I think what is meant here is that Forza has 520 cars, all modeled the same, inside and out, as well as their tracks. GT5 is split 80/20 with premium and standard cars and some imported standard tracks. I think that is where people are talking about consistency.

Let's add that GT5 has a better penalty system.

If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them - from the opening post.

 

[arora]

From what you're discribing, GT5's damage model works in a pretty simple way: Your car is damaged, now it'll perform like crap.

Correct, when highest damage is set and crashing is involved.

What does Forza do, though: The body, aero, suspension, steering, engine and transmition can all be damaged seperately, according to the incident. It's also scalable. it's not like the parts of the car are either workign fine or damaged, they graduately take more damage and perform worse.

Which sounds much better.

Also, even relatively weak collisions can cause the car to get damaged, both visually and mechanically, whereas, in GT5, even at maximum damage all that's going to happen it that "tooonk" noise.

When the damage setting is on medium(gt5) it seems lesser collisions can spark the timed penalty to varying degree's though. I've never payed close attention to visuals but you can clearly see varied amounts of damage on cars as you race.

If you're asking me, the mechanical damage model in FM3 is quite a bit more sophisticated than what GT5 has to offer.

I've never played fm3 so I make no claims as to sophistication between the two.

You can see the complex ideas of damage in gt5, like the car icon that shows a red area for say a flat tire or broken suspension etc, an attempt to alter the car's behavior depending upon circumstance.... lots of poorly implemented ideas.... The chassis refresh system is the most disapointing to me as it costs the same amount of credits to repair regardless the damage, not to mention you can hardly tell the difference, if at all.

This is all fine and dandy convo but my main point remains. With damage set to high you cannot drive normally in a smashed nascar as if it was never damaged in gt5, a pit stop is mandatory.

 

[Luminis]

When the damage setting is on medium(gt5) it seems lesser collisions can spark the timed penalty to varying degree's though. I've never payed close attention to visuals but you can clearly see varied amounts of damage on cars as you race.

Well, yeah, there's the penalty of course. However, I only meant to compare the damage models of both games
Regarding the visual stuff, it's just my experience that GT5 has a higher tolerance to how much damage a car can take before showing damage at all.

This is all fine and dandy convo but my main point remains. With damage set to high you cannot drive normally in a smashed nascar as if it was never damaged in gt5, a pit stop is mandatory.

Of course not, but it'll take more to make the car undrivable than it'd take in Forza, it'd take more to severly impact the car's performance, too.

It's not like GT5 has no damage system or anything, I just think Forza's is better.

I think what is meant here is that Forza has 520 cars, all modeled the same, inside and out, as well as their tracks. GT5 is split 80/20 with premium and standard cars and some imported standard tracks. I think that is where people are talking about consistency.

There's also the fact that GT5 has a beautiful lighting engine, but has issues with its shadows. It has lots of smoke, but it causes the cars to appear pixelated. It's running at 1080p, but, from my experience, it also suffers from more tearing and frame rate drops.

 

[arora]

Well, yeah, there's the penalty of course. However, I only meant to compare the damage models of both games

Well the penalty involves damage, it's not like gt5p where you just go slow for a while, the car's driving characteristics are changed instead.

 

[Luminis]

Well the penalty involves damage, it's not like gt5p where you just go slow for a while, the car's driving characteristics are changed instead.

I guess I misunderstood you, my bad. However, I'll stand by my point: The damage model, especially the mechanical damage, seems better in FM3.
So I can only agree if someone lists the damage in Forza as one of the advantages it has of GT5.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Time to pull the "claim" card....

Although I would like to see some proof to that as well, I knew I was right about you. You actually have the nerve to act all high and mighty. How about answering my "claim" card first?

 

[James1436]

I would just like to say, I think Turn 10 did a hell of a job putting the amount if details the did in each car. Go to this thread. I just think the lighting engine is drowning the glory. But as they mentioned, Forza 4 will get the new image based lighting which looks awesome.

Gt5 premium cars have really good shaders/lighting. But the small amount of fully rendered cars is disappointing.

 

[infamousDee]

Although I would like to see some proof to that as well, I knew I was right about you. You actually have the nerve to act all high and mighty. How about answering my "claim" card first?

Join the queue. We're all still waiting for him to present some evidence supporting his opinion (read: delusion) that cars in GT5 won't break loose he expressed in an earlier thread.

 

[FyreandIce]

It has levels and, as you level up, more items become unlocked. It has parties (B-spec) that you can manage. It has classes: you take out a Viper into an arcade race and it'll pit you against a different set of cars than if you took a Mini Cooper.

Actually, B-spec mode is what really makes it an RPG. And that, I feel, is where GT is headed towards. Kaz even mentioned wanting to make it more of an MMO RPG where you could drive around a city and meet up with other people.

I see Forza becoming more and more of a hard core racing sim...well...not if MS insists on sticking with DVD ROM for their next system, but...still. Forza and GT are very different. And I've said it before: If you're gonna compare Forza and GT, you might as well toss in Shift 2 and all the other racing games with licensed cars and tracks.

How can you possibly say GT5 is a "RPG" but Forza 3 isn't?

Just so you know, FM 3 has 1-50 driver levels, you unlock race events at higher levels (the highest end races aren't available until you hit level 30 I believe) and every car in the game has a 1-5 level which unlocks discounts on upgrades.

And what does DVD have to do with anything?

FM4 will only need 2 DVD discs with 500+ fully modelled cars and more then likely many more tracks compared to FM3.
***Edit - I should point out myself that the Autovista cars get special treatment but every car in the game has full interior modelling.***

DVD's are a non issue thanks to HDDs (granted for a select few, it can be an issue).

 

[t.o.]

I'll try to be more clear. If you have the damage set to maximum in gt5 you cannot fly around the track with your front end crumpled up in your passenger side as you can with a clean car. You would be forced to pit(unless you like driving very slow) because there is definitely a damage penalty that causes you to lose speed and handling. It may not be as aero specific as it is 'get that wrecked pile off the track' specific, so that everything is repaired. It's night and day damage, the only things I can think of in gt5 that are gradual or livable to stay on track with are loss of hp due to dirty oil or need of engine refresh(mileage dependent), and need of chassis refresh(not sure if that is only mileage dependent or increased by crashes).

If you are arguing that fm3's damage model is better then gt5's that is one thing but you shouldn't dismiss fact to enhance your view.

I'll try to be more clear also, although I don't know how much clearer I can be. In every post I've made here I've SPECIFICALLY mentioned AERO damage. I said nothing of other damage. I'm talking specifically aero damage. Only other time I mentioned something other than aero damage was when I was talking about the engine damage. Yes both have mechanical damage, although GT5 seems to have "steps" of damage you can sustain like "moderate, serious, bad and horrendous". FM3 has degrees of damage. Again this is purely my observations. Furthermore you can sustain aero damage in FM3 without sustaining any mechanical damage. So even though there's no need to hit the pits as the aero won't get fixed (in FM3, don't know about FM4) you'll still be suffering a performance hit.

I NEVER dismissed any fact to enhance any kind of view so I take that sentence as a slight and it's NOT appreciated. We were not talking about mechanical damage, at least I wasn't. You want to talk mechanical damage then fine but don't pretend like I'm altering facts for my agenda. That wont fly with anyone whose read my posts and have a modicum of reading comprehension because it's VERY clear that I was talking about aero.

GT5's damage , as a whole, needs to evolve more. I'm glad they have something. Had it no damage I wouldn't not have bought the game at all and I'm dead serious about that. If there wasn't any damage in the game it would NOT have been in my collection. We're talk going on the cusp of 2011 and the game not having damage would have been a joke. But it needs work as it feels like it is, tacked on. I remember going headlong in a rear engine car at Monza at ridiculous speeds in the first turn in a barrier , with damage on, and didn't suffer any damage whatsoever. Nothing. I couldn't believe it.


I'll let these pics speak for themselves about sophistication of damage: