FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Bogie 19th]

I would have thought that adding weather to Forza 4 would not be beyond the realms of possibility particularly because PGR4 had snow, rain and lightning, if I remember correctly....Sure, F4 has better graphics, more cars etc but I think it was simply a decision made to keep the framerate up.

Indeed. FM4 is rolling with 60fps instead of PGR's 30fps, and substantially more physics working (360 calculations per second), and the addition of supporting 4000x16 livery layers.

 

[Luminis]

GT5 team have people that work modelling and people that work coding the game. Outsourcing all the modelling work does not mean that you can have a full featured GT5 in half the time. Means that you can have a GT5 in the same time period of five years but with more bulk content: cars, tracks, etc...

Which, in and off itself would be a good thing already. However, did it never occur to you that they could also, just, you know, add some people to work with the code? You make it sound like it was impossible to get the game out faster.

The good thing about freeing up resources is that you can relocate them to other places, as well. It's not like a company isn't capable to adjust its work force depending on what they need to do, is it?

I don't get why some people on these boards are, seemingly, of the opinion that PD's employee count and what those employees specialize in is set in stone...

Also, I wasn't only talking about outsourcing, but increasin the employee count generally.

The differences of all this game development work(internal work) it's very clear between both games. Just compare the features and achievements since the new consoles are out. GT since 2006 and FM since 2005.

You know, this is something that I could start a whole different debate over, again: GT5 has lots of bullet points, sure. Lots of features. Barely any are fully fleshed out or come without downsides.

It's cool they were able to cram as much into the game, sure. Doesn't mean I have to like the 'quantity over quality' approach in regards to the features I've seen there. Granted, I wouldn't want a game that focuses on a feature or two alone, but something that strikes a decent balance between a number of features that give you a well-rounded gaming experience and doing these features well enough to not consistently come with distinct downsides.

Everything that is done with this games are their (MS/Turn 10, Sony/PD) decisions but that doesn't mean you can overlook the other side. Let me ask you a question: Whose decision was is not to include weather or night racing in Forza 4?

It was T10's decision, probably Dan's. And he gave the reasoning for that: They were not willing to sacrifice the 60FPS framerate or anything else in order to include it. It was a "do it right or don't do it at all" decision.

PD not increasing their staff count, that is beyond me. I can understand the wish to keep it inhouse (even though I don't see much perfection in the game as a whole, anyways), but not increasing the employee count to get the game out of the door sooner or at least in a more finished manner, is beyond me.

Not that they haven't been criticized for it, by the way. You can find it in this very thread, it's brought up every few pages.

 

[Vaxxtx]

GT5 needed all these years of development to reach all their final features as we know today.

Thats actually sad. Considering how buggy and 1/2 assed the final features, and lack of more are.

 

[zr1chris]

Everything that is done with this games are their (MS/Turn 10, Sony/PD) decisions but that doesn't mean you can overlook the other side. Let me ask you a question: Whose decision was is not to include weather or night racing in Forza 4?

Dan said they were going to look into it but IBL came first and took too much of their resources and time. He said they look into that feature during every production of Forza but something else always comes first. 60FPS is also something he does not want to sacrifice. It sounds like it may be now possible with IBL. I will be looking for this to be part of FM5.

 

[Jamezinho]

GT5 was a poorly managed and overly ambitious project, pure and simple. PD tried to do everything in one development cycle rather than release a title every two years which could have taken the series forward in a more progressive and feedback-centric manner.

Turn 10's approach is absolutely the right one by contrast.

 

[Zer0]

However, did it never occur to you that they could also, just, you know, add some people to work with the code? You make it sound like it was impossible to get the game out faster.

The good thing about freeing up resources is that you can relocate them to other places, as well. It's not like a company isn't capable to adjust its work force depending on what they need to do, is it?

Also, I wasn't only talking about outsourcing, but increasin the employee count generally.

It was T10's decision, probably Dan's. And he gave the reasoning for that: They were not willing to sacrifice the 60FPS framerate or anything else in order to include it. It was a "do it right or don't do it at all" decision.

PD not increasing their staff count, that is beyond me. I can understand the wish to keep it inhouse (even though I don't see much perfection in the game as a whole, anyways), but not increasing the employee count to get the game out of the door sooner or at least in a more finished manner, is beyond me.

You don't need to hire more people to get the game faster if you keep your features low. Maybe if T10 had doubled the team now we would have night, weather and more cool half assed things. If you want to choose that pattern all two games can play. The point is that GT5 is doing things that all people was expecting in FM4 and PD team is not bigger than T10.

There are only two possible explanations:

1- PD reached a limit in the hardware doing things not possible in this generation. T10 not even tried(lazy developers) or doesn't have the skills to match PD.
2- PS3 is more capable than X360.

Relocating artists as a code programers? I highly doubt it happen and even more by default. That's like putting car designers as F1 drivers.

 

[zr1chris]

GT5 was a poorly managed and overly ambitious project, pure and simple. PD tried to do everything in one development cycle rather than release a title every two years which could have taken the series forward in a more progressive and feedback-centric manner.

Turn 10's approach is absolutely the right one by contrast.

I agree and disagree. It may pay off for PD in the long run. It just depends on if they keep looking too far ahead or not. If their vision remains the same and they actually finish GT5 one day as to how they envisioned it or make GT6 what GT5 should have been then it may work but if they keep coming up with new idea after new idea and never finish the first idea then you are 100% correct.

 

[Vaxxtx]

1- PD reached a limit in the hardware doing things not possible in this generation. T10 not even tried(lazy developers) or doesn't have the skills to match PD.
2- PS3 is more capable than X360.

Yeah...those are the only 2 options...

 

[Daverytimes]

It was T10's decision, probably Dan's. And he gave the reasoning for that: They were not willing to sacrifice the 60FPS framerate or anything else in order to include it. It was a "do it right or don't do it at all" decision.

PD not increasing their staff count, that is beyond me. I can understand the wish to keep it inhouse (even though I don't see much perfection in the game as a whole, anyways), but not increasing the employee count to get the game out of the door sooner or at least in a more finished manner, is beyond me.

Not that they haven't been criticized for it, by the way. You can find it in this very thread, it's brought up every few pages.

Didnt Dan state it was decided not to do it at the expense of framerate?

Who decision was it to make night weather system only on some tracks?

Have you two ever heard the saying: "It's better to try and fail than not trying at all". From what i gather many of you are gulping down the words of those who haven't tried yet you are very quick to dismiss those who have actually tried but failed.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Have you two ever heard the saying: "It's better to try and fail than not trying at all". From what i gather many of you are gulping down the words of those who haven't tried yet you are very quick to dismiss those who have actually tried but failed.

GT5 already went that route.

To be honest, I would rather not have FM try an fail. You see, a fail game is still fail. But obviously it was "tried" in some form or another, or they wouldnt have said it was excluded due to frame rate issues. So...you can call it "Tried, didnt work, so didnt do it, as NOT to fail". Good job T10.

 

[Daverytimes]

GT5 already went that route.

To be honest, I would rather not have FM try an fail. You see, a fail game is still fail. But obviously it was "tried" in some form or another, or they wouldnt have said it was excluded due to frame rate issues. So...you can call it "Tried, didnt work, so didnt do it, as NOT to fail". Good job T10.

Alright i concede, GT5 fails. I guess that makes you happy.

 

[Terronium-12]

There are only two possible explanations:

1- PD reached a limit in the hardware doing things not possible in this generation. T10 not even tried(lazy developers) or doesn't have the skills to match PD.
2- PS3 is more capable than X360.

 

[McLaren]

There are only two possible explanations:

1- PD reached a limit in the hardware doing things not possible in this generation. T10 not even tried(lazy developers) or doesn't have the skills to match PD.
2- PS3 is more capable than X360.

If any of the 2 developers are possibly lazy, it's Polyphony. The amount of fully developed features, cars, game modes, & licenses between the 2 is quite large.

Plain & simple, PD did not work smart & T10 did. The former took on a project they did not have the man power to do & instead of outsourcing, they decided to keep everything in-house to maintain the quality. But, as evident, they couldn't maintain it throughout the entire game. So, whilst some tracks look beautiful with the day/night & weather transitions, others are obvious ports from past work with little touch up.

Luminis hit the nail on the head when he said that if T10 was going to do it, they were going to do it right. Polyphony should have followed the same outlook.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Indeed. FM4 is rolling with 60fps instead of PGR's 30fps, and substantially more physics working (360 calculations per second), and the addition of supporting 4000x16 livery layers.

To be fair, the 4000x16 livery layer situation shouldn't be an issue during actual races. The smart money is on the livery being flattened to a one-layer texture for in-race moments, the game saving this one-layer version each time you exit out of the editor. It wouldn't make sense to keep it multi-layer outside of there, anyways.

 

[Daverytimes]

If any of the 2 developers are possibly lazy, it's Polyphony. The amount of fully developed features, cars, game modes, & licenses between the 2 is quite large.

Plain & simple, PD did not work smart & T10 did. The former took on a project they did not have the man power to do & instead of outsourcing, they decided to keep everything in-house to maintain the quality. But, as evident, they couldn't maintain it throughout the entire game. So, whilst some tracks look beautiful with the day/night & weather transitions, others are obvious ports from past work with little touch up.

Luminis hit the nail on the head when he said that if T10 was going to do it, they were going to do it right. Polyphony should have followed the same outlook.

How much can you contradict yourself in one post? You label PD as being lazy developers yet you go on to explain in detail how they are not. If the reason PD wasn't able to have a polished game was because of manpower then that doesn't make them lazy, in-fact it makes them hard workers to able to cram so much content (finished or not) with such little workforce. It's sad that we efficiently dismiss the efforts of one developer while hugging another, if all we did was criticize or praise there will be no GT5 or Forza 4.

 

[KreepaEvox]

Ok Davery, to which of both demons should we pray to?
Unfinished or Safe Played
I rather have the best gaming experience.... the same gaming experience across the board and not a " If I set this up like this, it will be truly remarkable

 

[Nessy]

Ok Davery, to which of both demons should we pray to?
Unfinished or Safe Played
I rather have the best gaming experience.... the same gaming experience across the board and not a " If I set this up like this, it will be truly remarkable

Where as, i'm the opposite... a little bit of truly remarkable rather than just consistency across the board is a sacrifice i'd happily choose... i mean, i love FM and all but there's moments in GT that FM simply just can't achieve.

 

[Daverytimes]

Ok Davery, to which of both demons should we pray to?
Unfinished or Safe Played
I rather have the best gaming experience.... the same gaming experience across the board and not a " If I set this up like this, it will be truly remarkable

If you realize that both ways of thinking are flawed then my job is done. Without risk takers there will be no innovation, without safe players there will be no satisfaction.

 

[vandaliser]

aaah if turn 10 were going to do it right they will do it then.

Meanwhile watching the sun rise over the nurbugring as i chase off my buddy is an experience which will never be bettered on a console this generation. Thank you polyphony. After all these years and all these countless cheap imitations, only you know what driving/racing is all about.

Here's to another 10 years of Gran turismo and same exhilarting gameplay. Let the copycats have their livery and their world beating customisation

 

[McLaren]

How much can you contradict yourself in one post? You label PD as being lazy developers yet you go on to explain in detail how they are not. If the reason PD wasn't able to have a polished game was because of manpower then that doesn't make them lazy, in-fact it makes them hard workers to able to cram so much content (finished or not) with such little workforce. It's sad that we efficiently dismiss the efforts of one developer while hugging another, if all we did was criticize or praise there will be no GT5 or Forza 4.

Except they didn't cram anything. Instead of taking the time to actually model all those cars, even by means of outsourcing, or actually using the Top Gear license, or implementing the day/night transitions to all tracks, they half-assed it & called it done.

I also said that if either of the 2 were lazy, it was PD. I didn't say they were, but at the amount of under developed features & ported GT3/4 content in comparison to T10's work in the near same timeframe, they certainly look like it.

 

[Jamezinho]

Meanwhile watching the sun rise over the nurbugring as i chase off my buddy is an experience which will never be bettered on a console this generation. Thank you polyphony. After all these years and all these countless cheap imitations, only you know what driving/racing is all about.

So, rather than "The Real Driving Simulator", GT5 is "The Real Driving the Nordschleife with a day-night transition Simulator".

If that's all you want to do in the game then fine.

 

[Spagetti69]

Wow the Nurb gets brought up a lot.
Good job they added that track eh.

 

[zr1chris]

So, rather than "The Real Driving Simulator", GT5 is "The Real Driving the Nordschleife with a day-night transition Simulator".

If that's all you want to do in the game then fine.

Don't forget it also has to be in a premium car.

 

[vandaliser]

So, rather than "The Real Driving Simulator", GT5 is "The Real Driving the Nordschleife with a day-night transition Simulator".

If that's all you want to do in the game then fine.

That wasn't the point i was trying to make but still nice job in downplaying GT strengths.

you know what. I don't what to get into trouble but i will say this though. I value the opinion of jeremy clarkson who has driven hundreds of cars over the years over people like yourself

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I don't really get how we came from "budget of a game" to "budget per X years"... Just saying.

I'd be very suprised if they can't undercut GT5's budget, though. Not that it'd be hard to accomplish if you're outsourcing to countries where the average wage is far lower than in the US or Japan.

Unless we're assuming that more manhours went into FM4. Which would pretty impressive, in my opinion.


I highly doubt that. Granted, the revenue made on the single might not be as high, but factoring in the consoles sold due to the games and such, i think it very much is about profit. It always is...


I'd think outsourcing would be the easiest and most efficient way... I mean, it seems like one of the things that takes up a huge chunk of time without being something that has to be done inhouse to warrant high quality.

I'm also hoping for them to expand, by the way. Would be a lot better for us if they found a way to get their games out faster (and more reliable).


Would this include the people modelling their cars?


I guess I don't even need to reply to the rest of the post because you just brought my own point up

See?

Double the employees at PD, bring the game out in half the time, use the same budget. That's the exact same thing I said from the very beginning and why I said lacking employees is hardly an excuse with that budget!

Yeah, they have less employees, but why? Because someone's forcing them to work with so few?

I mean, you make it sound like PD couldn't possibly hire more people when, above, you did the very same math I've been doing when I said they should hire more employees.


Why, though? My only math is fairly simple: 2x the employer for 0.5x the time = same budget.

That, and the assumption that outsourcing work to countries with lower average wages is to cut down on cost (which is why it's being done in the first place). So, unless we're assuming that a) PD outsourced work without telling people about it or b) T10 put more manhours into each individual game than PD, it'd be hard to justify the assumption that they've had a bigger budget than PD.

If you want to do some backtracking, you'll see fairly easily who was starting to assume numbers here.

And then, there are a lot of people who confuse those two, it seems.

I would not be surprised if two to four times or even more man hours has gone into Forza 4 to get it to the stage it has got itself at right now compared to GT5.

About profit, many first party studios have been dropped by Microsoft or they have left, Turn 10 was founded to beat PD’s GT series and it has yet to do that in terms of sales numbers. The only way it would have been dropped by Microsoft is if it was say selling only 1-2 million copies a title at a maximum. I will find it interesting to see how well Forza 4 does when it goes on sale to see the sales trend as it could probably sell less than Forza 3 or sell a lot more. I think it will sell similar amount to Forza 3.

Outsourcing would be good but they need to get another 250 people working on GT series just to be equal with how much people Turn 10 had working on Forza 4 a year or two ago. Turn 10 will most likely grow in size to about 500-600 people in the next two years, and PD might get nearly to 200. That sounds small in comparison but that would put PD probably as the highest staffed Sony first party studio and 2nd highest racing game studio (2nd to only Turn 10).

It won’t be easy as saying, oh T10 have 3 times as many people working, can we expand and get the same number of people that three top first party studios use to make a game quicker even if we are already more successful than them. If Microsoft make it the norm to have 3 times the size of a top first party studio such as PD, Naughty Dog then I guess the Sony studios must expand to compete. I hope PD can spend more money on extra resources to not get shown up by Turn 10 for the sake of it. Don’t think it is likely to happen but one can hope.

As far as simple maths goes, Turn 10 have had for the last 8 years about 1.5-2.5X the staff PD have had but released less games, and sold a lot less. I think you can agree on this right?

 

[Nessy]

Don't forget it also has to be in a premium car.

Not necessarily... i unashamedly rock the standards just as much as the premo's on the nurb.

 

[Jamezinho]

That wasn't the point i was trying to make but still nice job in downplaying GT strengths.

you know what. I don't what to get into trouble but i will say this though. I value the opinion of jeremy clarkson who has driven hundreds of cars over the years over people like yourself

I don't see how that has any relevance at all to this discussion. What's Jeremy Clarkson's opinion on this issue anyway?

I'm a gamer, not a racing driver or motoring journalist. I judge racing games on what gives me the best all-round experience.

 

[Daverytimes]

Except they didn't cram anything. Instead of taking the time to actually model all those cars, even by means of outsourcing, or actually using the Top Gear license, or implementing the day/night transitions to all tracks, they half-assed it & called it done.

I also said that if either of the 2 were lazy, it was PD. I didn't say they were, but at the amount of under developed features & ported GT3/4 content in comparison to T10's work in the near same timeframe, they certainly look like it.

By saying that PD are the laziest of the two you are implying that they are lazy, remember you already said that PD "Took on a project they did not have the manpower to complete". Going by what you said i can deduce that you know that PD are not lazy hence why you pointed out their lack of manpower to complete said project, lacking manpower and being lazy are two completely different things. If there is something we all agree on that will be that PD needs more people on their team.

 

[Jamezinho]

PD aren't lazy, just under-manned and poorly managed.

 

[JDMKING13]

This is one reason I love GT the attention to detail is just amazing, This was done by one of the members on GTP, he went to many location in real life and compared them with GT5. Enjoy... Warning very long

Part 1/2

Warning! Very long posts ahead!

Hello my friends. In this issue will not test cars, although you will see some cars in part 2. Yes, this issue is so big that we had to split it in two parts.
For this one time our mag changes to travel magazine.
The challange was to get to photo travel places and see what's so special about them in reality. Did Polyphony Digital made good job recreating these places? Are they worth visiting? We hope now we can answer those questions.
It was fascinating long trip. 10 days of making photos. Over 4000km of driving. Two days of work with pics. You'll find results below. We hope you will like this issue, as much as we had fun doing this.

First encounter
Red Bull Hangar 7
First stop on our way was Salzburg. Beautiful Old Town surrounded by river and monumental rocks. It was magic evening, sitting above town, drinking great wheat beer, and listening to campaniles concert.
But we haven't stop in Salzburg just for it. In the morning we visited Red Bull Hangar 7. What an breathtaking place.



Entrance to exhibition is free. First thing you notice is music. Chillout tune just like in GT5. Then that one thought strikes you - I'm in Gran Turismo!

Part 2/2

Warning! Very long posts ahead!

So whole issue of WrongGear and nothing about cars? Not exactly. As I said before, we were also in Maranello and Sant'Agata.

Raging Bulls
Lamborghini Museum

Small sleepy town. Some old men in front of caffeteria, and suddenly you see masked, roaring Gallardo speeding through the town. That's Sant'Agata Bolognese, hometown of Lamborghini.
Museum isn't big but have something unique. Ofcourse you will see here many old Lambos but what's more interesting almost whole one floor is filled with concept cars.

If you want to see those and many other cars you'll find link at the end of post, because we will focus on cars that are in the game.

First one we have spotted was lovely Miura S. Not exacly model from GT5, but close enough




One look in those lovely eyes, and you have fallen in love.

(Click on the little speech bubble beside Abraxas' name to view the full epic-ness)