Ford Focus ST Seasonal Challenge Rigged???

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PD should really add an Expert/Pro option to enable detailed technical settings and information for those able to understand them. Their lack is frustrating :nervous:
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Hmmm... but still learning them would be tough as in real life you just test the car few times and you know when there is the best moment to change the gear. Although once I used to have a car without any power loss at the end of each gear :D
 
After many attempts I golded this yesterday with all aids off (except abs 1) and one improvement in the setup was the brake balance. I changed to 5/10 and when breaking hard the car oversteers a little that helps to compensate the understeer. For my driving style much better.
 
You need to be setting 1.43 lap times or below as mentioned. Be very smooth, try not to bump into walls, they really slow you down. I did it with controller using skid recovery and TCS 1 :( but I think I could do it with my wheel and skid off.

Setup, well it is a FWD car which means inherent understeer. So why people are using harder settings on the front suspension I don't know? I keep front relatively soft, springs 6, dampers 4-5, ARB 3-4 and roughly 20-50% stiffer for the rear and very important set some toe out ie -toe front and back. This is a generally oversteery setup which improves turn in and pulling out of low speed turns for FWDs.
 
junglemajik
So why people are using harder settings on the front suspension I don't know?
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The front wheels are already quite busy, especially on the curvy track where a bit of tail braking isn't that bad, and you can improve turn-in behaviour a lot by stiffening the rear ARBs and softening the front ARBs.

In fact I like to setup my FWDs in a way that the back of the car is dragged round the corner like a dog's tail. So I don't care if the rear tyres stay cold because I don't want to grip them too much.

But the setup postet by SHIRAKAWA Akira is a very sound one.

I'd say especially the brake settings and the LSD have a major influence in the handling of the Focus.

It appeared slow to me but actually it was quite decent but I pushed a bit too hard in stock form.

Nice lesson in car setups I should say.
 
junglemajik
You need to be setting 1.43 lap times or below as mentioned. Be very smooth, try not to bump into walls, they really slow you down. I did it with controller using skid recovery and TCS 1 :( but I think I could do it with my wheel and skid off.

Setup, well it is a FWD car which means inherent understeer. So why people are using harder settings on the front suspension I don't know? I keep front relatively soft, springs 6, dampers 4-5, ARB 3-4 and roughly 20-50% stiffer for the rear and very important set some toe out ie -toe front and back. This is a generally oversteery setup which improves turn in and pulling out of low speed turns for FWDs.
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Spring stiffness regulates the amount of suspension travel and thus weight transfer. On a FWD car usually the front weights more than the back. An unloaded, dry weight FWD car has usually got a static weight balance of around 60% front - 40% rear. To achieve balance and even suspension travel between the two axles, spring stiffness is usually directly proportional to the supported weight. On a FWD car, therefore, front springs are usually set to be harder than rear ones. In that way, assuming correct suspension geometry and damper settings, 0.4 G in both breaking and acceleration will cause for example the same suspension travel.

What happens when we set the front spring stiffness too low and the rear ones too high? Under braking the front of the car will dive much, causing most of the car weight to transfer on the front wheels, which might possibly overheat (front suspensions might also bottom out and the car's underside might touch the ground, although I'm not sure if this is correctly simulated in GT5). Sure, the rear will now be able to easily slide, since rear wheels might be barely touching the ground (if at all in certain cars). However, the fact that they have to support little to no weight under braking also means that little to no grip is generated. No load means no grip. The total car grip will be therefore reduced, although as a whole it might feel apparently feel "better", oversteery.

You don't want to upset too much the spring balance relatively to the car's weight balance. Small adjustments are ok, but too much will make you lose somewhere. The same principle is valid for everything else, anyway.

I believe it's better to mainly tune the car behavior with wheel alignment, damper settings and stabilizers/anti-roll bars (or the LSD even). GT5 however discourages this as there is no way to find out the weight balance of the car (which by the way also changes with the pilot and fuel weights, or static suspension ride height) other than searching up this value (which might not even be 100% correct) on the internet case by case.

* * *

By the way, here's the exact setup I used for the Focus ST (I posted the last one by memory, there are some slight differences):

- Aero 0/5
- Shift gear @ 6000 rpm max.
- Top Speed 230 Km/h
- LSD 5/15/5
- Ride height -20/-20
- Spring rate 12.0/10.0
- Dampers (extension) 7/7
- Dampers (compression) 5/6
- Anti-roll bar 1/4
- Camber angle (-) 2.5/2.0
- Toe angle 0.00/-0.67
- Brake balance 3/10
 
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SHIRAKAWA Akira
Spring stiffness regulates the amount of suspension travel and thus weight transfer. On a FWD car usually the front weights more than the back. An unloaded, dry weight FWD car has usually got a static weight balance of around 60% front - 40% rear. To achieve balance and even suspension travel between the two axles, spring stiffness is usually directly proportional to the supported weight. On a FWD car, therefore, front springs are usually set to be harder than rear ones. In that way, assuming correct suspension geometry and damper settings, 0.4 G in both breaking and acceleration will cause for example the same suspension travel.

What happens when we set the front spring stiffness too low and the rear ones too high? Under braking the front of the car will dive much, causing most of the car weight to transfer on the front wheels, which might possibly overheat (front suspensions might also bottom out and the car's underside might touch the ground, although I'm not sure if this is correctly simulated in GT5). Sure, the rear will now be able to easily slide, since rear wheels might be barely touching the ground (if at all in certain cars). However, the fact that they have to support little to no weight under braking also means that little to no grip is generated. No load means no grip. The total car grip will be therefore reduced, although as a whole it might feel apparently feel "better", oversteery.

You don't want to upset too much the spring balance relatively to the car's weight balance. Small adjustments are ok, but too much will make you lose somewhere. The same principle is valid for everything else, anyway.

I believe it's better to mainly tune the car behavior with wheel alignment, damper settings and stabilizers/anti-roll bars (or the LSD even). GT5 however discourages this as there is no way to find out the weight balance of the car (which by the way also changes with the pilot and fuel weights, or static suspension ride height) other than searching up this value (which might not even be 100% correct) on the internet case by case.

* * *

By the way, here's the exact setup I used for the Focus ST:

- Aero 0/5
- Shift gear @ 6000 rpm max.
- Top Speed 230 Km/h
- LSD 5/15/5
- Ride height -20/-20
- Spring rate 12.0/10.0
- Dampers (extension) 7/7
- Dampers (compression) 5/6
- Anti-roll bar 1/4
- Camber angle (-) 2.5/2.0
- Toe angle 0.00/-0.67
- Brake balance 3/10
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Great Post!

After everything I read how difficult (impossible?) this event is (without SRF), I left it for last. I was terrified.
I did it last night from the third full try (SRF off), also some partial trys to tune the car and test some driving lines.
This is not to say that I'm that much of a driver. No. This is to say that everything can be done with some practice, preparation, percistance and experiment.
In this case, what worked for me was a dramatic approach to racing lines (mostly after the straights and through the hairpins). Ultra outside entry and virtually straightening the braking zone, late, late deep into the corners did miracles. Of course, you should keep it clean and respect the FWD characteristics of the car as well.
Despite a few mistakes (mostly wall rubbing), I caught the RS before the middle of the last lap.
Please, try revising your attitude towards the race and be imaginative with racing lines. It's perfectly doable.
For me, the RX7 (especially) and Mini races were much more difficult (skid off).
 
"...although I'm not sure if this is correctly simulated in GT5..."

I agree 100% with your post SHIRAKAWA Akira, especially the qoute above. Ideally I would place higher spring rate on the front but this is a game after all. I did it with stock diff, trans and no aero, perhaps this is needed to place 1st without skid recovery.
 
Well they did put skid recovery in the game for a reason right? And i cant beat some of these challenges so i use the aids sometimes. But wen i am racing online no aids
 
I use softer springs in front and stiffer ones in rear and the car handles alot better than if i do it the opposite way
 
I'm coming close to golding this event, about 1 second off the leader, consistently, I think my setups are fine, just need 5 laps of smooth driving. Using a controller & running too many endurance events lately, sore thumb. :ouch:
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
Although the most I've been able to do with skid recovery off is 5.4 seconds from the 1st place, I have some hints:

Shift gear at most at 6000 rpm. 6200 maximum in first and maybe second gear.
Brake Balance 3/10 or 3/9. The front wheels are already too much loaded as they are, this help redistributing the load to the real wheels which otherwise would be most of the time cold.
Aero settings: 0/10 (0/5 could be probably a better choice. Or no wing at all)
Ride height -20/-20.
Spring stiffness 12.0/9.8 . This is based on a 55:45 car weight distribution including the pilot.
Damper (bump/rebound) 7/5 front and 5/6 rear
Stabilizers 1/4
Toe 0.0/-0.65 <- rear toe out helps big time. Possibly more can be useful too.
Front toe has to be a trade off between grip at corner entry or corner exit, so I set it at 0.
Camber 2.5/2.0 (although without detailed tire temperatures there's no way to tell what is the optimal setting. this seemed good to me, could be probably better).
LSD: 10/15/5
Gear setting: the minimum speed setting which allows to reach in practice mode top speed at about 6000 rpm on Madrid. Sorry, I don't remember exactly what I set and can't turn on the PS3 right now.

With consistent driving and lap times at or below 1:43 it should be possible to end in first place by the 5 laps allowed.
Theoretically I could win a gold, but I'm not consistent enough unfortunately.
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Thanks for this. My previous setup was similar (generally speaking) to what you had, but the bolded bits REALLY made a difference for me. I had had some rear toe-out but nowhere near the level you had. Didn't realize the 6K shifts would make that much of a difference either. Also didn't take into the front-bias weight distribution due to the engine.

I'm getting to about 1 sec from 1st, so at this point it's down to me. Getting high 44's on my first lap and some low 43/high 42's for the rest. I just need to string them all together for a clean run... Lol.

I'll also need to tweak my gears. Currently at 210kmh, but will probably need to move that up, according to your latest settings. Good stuff. 👍
 
YEAH I made IT! Without SRF!
1.4 secs in front at the finish line
YEAH
YEAH
Oh, wow, the excitement in my body is enormous..
 
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And here are the settings:
I bought all non-engine upgrade maxed out..
The engine upgrade is a catalytic convertor

Body/chassis / rear wing: 5

Transmission: 210kmh

Drivetrain/LSD -
Initial torque - 60
acceleration - 60
braking - 20

Suspension
Ride height: Front -20, rear -10
Spring: front 7.5, rear 15.5
Dampers (both): Front 5, Rear 10
ARB: Front: 3, Rear: 6

Wheel alignment:
Camber: Front 2.3, rear 1.0
Toe: Front -0.40, Rear -0.41

Brake balance: Front 4, Rear 10
 
With a 210 Km/h speed setting I take that you were shifting gears at 7000 rpm, right?
The LSD settings don't make much sense in my opinion. On a FWD you don't usually need LSD lock during braking. Also I found in my case that an acceleration setting of 15 was already using the inner front wheel almost at the limits while exiting corners, how would 60 work better, especially with an initial torque of 60 meaning that high differential lock comes quickly as you increase throttle?

I will try this setup, but it doesn't look very competitive to be frank.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
With a 210 Km/h speed setting I take that you were shifting gears at 7000 rpm, right?
The LSD settings don't make much sense in my opinion. On a FWD you don't usually need LSD lock during braking. Also I found in my case that an acceleration setting of 15 was already using the inner front wheel almost at the limits while exiting corners, how would 60 work better, especially with an initial torque of 60 meaning that high differential lock comes quickly as you increase throttle?

I will try this setup, but it doesn't look very competitive to be frank.
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Nope, I was shifting at ~6200
About LSD:
From other sim experience I have in GT Legend I know I really like high LSD lock at acceleration in FWD cars. They just make the car easy to turn when on full throttle, since you just say it needs to throttle no matter if a wheel is slipping. The rear will follow.
The braking, was standard AFAIK, didn't change that AFAIK..
 
All this conjecture, when I bet PD originally required SRF to be on to do it :)
 
It seems like this event needs laptimes averaging the 1.43 range. SFR will allow you to be in the 1.40-1.41 if you're clean and milk the extra grip, but with it off you would be pushing to get lower than 1.46 without a monster car setup.

I won this by 2 seconds, fairly sloppy driving but SFR set on, to be honest i have no desire to drive that quite horrible car around that horrible track for any longer than is needed, it is overbalanced to be realistic to win the challenge without SFR on.
 
Ah damnit! I capitulate PD! Got within 8.5xx of the focus by end of lap 5. I can't do better with my DS3 and do not have a wheel (or the talent obviously) so... SRF, here I come.
I have tried btw, about 2 hours but it has beaten me, much like the Top Gear Elise challenge, the only other time I have used SRF.
I will have to re-visit the RX-7 on Tsukuba with it ON too it seems...

Renrag
 
I found the trick was to brake as late as possible on certain bends coz the AI always brakes on the red lines. For example, on the back straight after the kink, coming down the hill, I'm braking about 2/3rd the way along the red line, almost to the last zebra crossing, pumping the brakes and then carrying roughly 45-50mph through that first left hand bend, where as the AI applied its brakes at the beginning of the red line, again at the entry to the bend and was doing about 20-30mph all the way around the bend.

Similarly on the long circular bend after the fast right hander, brake hard literally as you come to the first apex on the right at the entry to the turn (about half way down the red braking line), release as you hit 50mph and you can feather the gas to carry this speed through the rest of the bend. Get to just after the "100" sign for the next bend and slap on full throttle to exit at pace.

Hope that help a bit, I managed gold last night after 2 evenings of frustration, I think I did a 1:45.5 opener and then rough 1:42.5's for the rest, very ragged, needed to be really aggressive. Very tough challenge imho.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
With a 210 Km/h speed setting I take that you were shifting gears at 7000 rpm, right?
The LSD settings don't make much sense in my opinion. On a FWD you don't usually need LSD lock during braking. Also I found in my case that an acceleration setting of 15 was already using the inner front wheel almost at the limits while exiting corners, how would 60 work better, especially with an initial torque of 60 meaning that high differential lock comes quickly as you increase throttle?

I will try this setup, but it doesn't look very competitive to be frank.
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You are absolutely right, the Focus doesn't need extreme LSD settings. It's not that powerful and you don't want additional understeer. I acually did it WITHOUT LSD fitted at all. Maybe this was my lucky trick (wasn't the SRF).
By the way, I used a front brake bias, since on that track I was really braking only in straight line. I think straightening your braking zones before the chicanes, braking ultra late and going deep into the corner before turn in made the difference to me. That's where I was gaining time on the Performance Blue Focus RS.
BTW, I think the Focus ST handled brilliantly for a FF car. You just have to respect the layout and adjust slighty your driving style.

I hope this helps if anybody is still trying to pull this off without SRF.
 
chaosdd
You are absolutely right, the Focus doesn't need extreme LSD settings. It's not that powerful and you don't want additional understeer. I acually did it WITHOUT LSD fitted at all. Maybe this was my lucky trick (wasn't the SRF).
By the way, I used a front brake bias, since on that track I was really braking only in straight line. I think straightening your braking zones before the chicanes, braking ultra late and going deep into the corner before turn in made the difference to me. That's where I was gaining time on the Performance Blue Focus RS.
BTW, I think the Focus ST handled brilliantly for a FF car. You just have to respect the layout and adjust slighty your driving style.

I hope this helps if anybody is still trying to pull this off without SRF.
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I took the LSD off aswell, don't think the focus is powerful enough to need it. I went for rear brake bias though 1:8 really helped getting the back end round.
 
RobGT81
I took the LSD off aswell, don't think the focus is powerful enough to need it. I went for rear brake bias though 1:8 really helped getting the back end round.
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Do you have ABS off? If not I don't see how that would help
 
Even little LSD lock in acceleration is better than none at all (open differential).
Without a LSD, you lose traction as soon as one of the driving wheels starts slipping and with 221 hp it's not hard at all for that to happen in 1st or 2nd gear.

It's not complicated to set up properly on a FWD.
If you think that your suspension set-up if ok, and if while exiting tight corners (accelerating) the front outer wheel loses traction before the inner one, make the LSD acceleration sensitivity higher, and viceversa. This will transfer torque to the inner front wheel.
On a FWD you don't usually need differential lock while braking, so you will set that to its minimum setting.
Also, since acceleration lock will be usually set to rather low values, thus being a benefit in most cases without drawbacks, you don't need a high LSD activation torque threshold either.
Something like 10/15/5 or 5/12/5 will work the best, definitely better than having no lock at all. Too bad that in GT5 limited slip differentials can't be 1-way (locking only during acceleration), that would have been perfect for FWD cars.
Strange however that stock differentials (you can check their settings after purchasing a fully customizable one) sometimes are 1-way (0 setting only on braking. 0/0/0 is an open differential)
 
They certainly dumbed down things for GT5 as far as LSD goes compared to GT4...
 
Yes. I also find weird that we can't have up to 100% locking differentials. Maximum lock seems to be 60%. I also guess that the threshold sensitivity follows a linear ramp (torsen-like). Different limited slip differential types have different behaviors:

lsd.jpg


In general I despise GT5's way of providing "generic" values. What is "40" meant to represent exactly? I assume it's the locking percentage. But what about the threshold?
GT5 really needs to expand and clarify tuning settings.
 
LSD is just a bit weird. And actually i don't really care how it should be properly set-up, when I'm slower with the proper set-up.
In Power n Glory mod for GTR2 I have driven with a 70/10 setting on Mini's. The threshold was a number from 1-5, which I generally had at 2. And I'm pretty fast with these settings. managed several poles and wins in online races.
Maybe I'm just a bit of s strange driver or so..
 
YES, I FINALLY GOT IT! Cheers to Akira and Maz for their advice!
 
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Well, this challenge made me see I couldn't make the focus overstear on demand, no matter what settings. Not even the traditional sudden lift-off overstear.

Although I've never driven this car for real, I'm pretty sure big camber and positive toe in the front, no camber and negative toe in the rear, coupled with soft and high suspension in the rear should make it very loose. As in almost undrivable.
 
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