Ford Mustang/Chevy Camaro off?

[Widowmaker00]

I own a 2010 GT in real life. For those of you that don't know, it was the first year for the newest bodystyle, but one year before the new 5.0 engine. So my car has the 4.6.

I have thrashed my car pretty hard on Nurburgring in real life.


You guys can stop comparing the new Camaro to the older Mustang. Camaro has more power, and the Mustang is lighter, but has a live rear axle. They are two different cars.

My car when pushed to the limits would dive into corners and had quite a bit of body sway, due to the soft suspension.

Its just a game guys.

 

[LVracerGT]

The 07 GT did have a weaker engine, but it doesn't handle like crap in real life. I agree with you that the SS has a better engine than the 07. BTW the new model still utilizes a live rear axle. And I'm pretty sure that the Camaro is not accurate in GT5 with the way it handles and it's rearward weight distribution. Like I said in the OP, I don't want any fanboy talk which your posts obviously are.

I'm not trying to say one car is better than the other. I started this thread to discuss that both cars in GT5 seem inaccurate.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

.97? Who got that number? That sounded awfully high to me. The Mustang is very low tech when it comes to suspension. It was built not for performance, but for suburbs.

I did some Googling and Car and Driver only got .89.

p.s. For comparison, the Camaro was able to pull .92.

MOTORTRENDmitch check the name.
Check it out

 

[shirakawaa]

As for the '07 Mustang, PD screwed it up something awful. The weight distribution is so wildly incorrect that you can't make it what it is in real life even after fully lightening it and adding 200 kg of ballast to the rear of the car. PD also screwed up the fuel cutoff, which is a thousand RPM lower than it is on the Standard model.

The version included is also supposed to be automatic but lacks the torque converter "effect" (calling that "simulation" would be excessive) that some automatic cars have in GT5.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

You might as well just flip the table entirely, to be frank. For you to act as if the only reason people are disagreeing with you is personal bias is absurd.


The Camaro in the game is obviously too fast. There are several problems with the Mustang in the game that make it too slow. If pointing both of those things out is blind fanboyism to you, than I don't know what to tell you.

The 07 GT did have a weaker engine, but it doesn't handle like crap in real life. I agree with you that the SS has a better engine than the 07. BTW the new model still utilizes a live rear axle. And I'm pretty sure that the Camaro is not accurate in GT5 with the way it handles and it's rearward weight distribution. Like I said in the OP, I don't want any fanboy talk which your posts obviously are.

I'm not trying to say one car is better than the other. I started this thread to discuss that both cars in GT5 seem inaccurate.

I'm not pro-Camaro. They are both American, they are both lame. The OP, and several others, were going on about how the game got it wrong and that the Mustang was better. I'm sorry, but no one has any evidence of that. The '07 GT was complete crap. Ford phoned it in.

GM atleast made an effort. I still wouldn't recommend a Camaro to anyone, but one at least as to respect the fact that GM tried to make a sports car, not a show pony.

I won't say that PD got them absolutely correct, but I will say that the OP is way off. The Camaro storms the Mustang in the game, just as it would in real life.

Again, that is comparing the 2010 SS to the 2007 GT.

MOTORTRENDmitch check the name.

Are you saying that Motortrend somehow was magically able to get an '07 GT to grip better than anyone else? Can you find those numbers?

 

[Vrooman923]

The '71 Mach 1 is boss. Now that's a fun car to drive.

 

[shirakawaa]

The '71 Mach 1 is boss. Now that's a fun car to drive.

It's got a wrong transmission in GT5, by the way. Gear ratios in GT5 are the same as GM sports cars of the same era (Corvette, Camaro, etc).

 

[Mac K]

It's got a wrong transmission in GT5, by the way.

It does?

 

[Tornado]

I'm not pro-Camaro. They are both American, they are both lame.

Yeah. Hope you aren't expecting to be taken seriously in this discussion, then.

The OP, and several others, were going on about how the game got it wrong and that the Mustang was better.

You mean like this:

As for the new Camaro destroying the 05, stock for stock yes you are right.

Or this:

both the Camaro and Challenger(and the M3 if you want to count it) will embarrass the Mustang in top speed, acceleration, handling, and lap times.

Or this:

A new Camaro would destroy an '05 GT on the track, stock for stock.

In fact, the closest anyone ever said to saying what you keep claiming everyone is saying is when I said that the Camaro had problems with its handling that the Mustang did not, even though the Camaro still has more raw grip. So why exactly are you arguing so passionately against a sentiment that no one on this thread actually said?

Because this thread has only been about how the Mustang is too slow (which it is, because it is glitched in several ways) and the Camaro is too fast (which it is, because it is glitched in several ways). Not that the Mustang should be faster than the Camaro.

 

[shirakawaa]

It does?

Wrong gear ratios. Granted, they do not differ by much, but it shows how much PD cares about these cars.
They are 2.20, 1.64, 1.27, 1.00 (typical GM M22 close ratio gearbox of that time) instead of 2.32, 1.69, 1.29, 1.00 (Ford Heavy Duty CR).
I don't remember the final drive, but it's mostly likely wrong too.

 

[daveydeez]

Does anyone have a stock, standard Mustang GT they would be willing to send me to test? I saw one in the UCD about a month ago but I'm sure I won't be able to get another one on my own anytime soon.

send me a FR, i'm sure i have a spare to send out.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

I'm not pro-Camaro. They are both American, they are both lame. The OP, and several others, were going on about how the game got it wrong and that the Mustang was better. I'm sorry, but no one has any evidence of that. The '07 GT was complete crap. Ford phoned it in.

GM atleast made an effort. I still wouldn't recommend a Camaro to anyone, but one at least as to respect the fact that GM tried to make a sports car, not a show pony.

I won't say that PD got them absolutely correct, but I will say that the OP is way off. The Camaro storms the Mustang in the game, just as it would in real life.

Again, that is comparing the 2010 SS to the 2007 GT.



Are you saying that Motortrend somehow was magically able to get an '07 GT to grip better than anyone else? Can you find those numbers?

no no no I was talking 2011 Mustang

-----

All in all It's VERY safe to say that the 07 Mustang is much slower then the 2010 Camaro

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I have quite a bit of experience with the 05-08 Mustang in real life. Besides that, they are known to be good handling track cars. But the Mustang handles like a pig.

Furthermore, the Camaro, with no setup work, obliterated the M3. Now I know the Camaro is a good car, but the outright grip feels like GM paid off PD to make the Camaro feel like it's on rails in any situation. It's near arcade feeling. Even 100HP lower than the M3 it was still quicker.

I'm sorry, but... they are known to be good handling track cars by whom? Again, any review I've seen points out that the '07 GT handled horribly. It was for looks, not for driving.

Now, I don't know if the Camaro really does obliterate the M3 in the game. I think it depends a lot on the driver and the track. But the OP makes some silly comments that again, draws fire. The Camaro, in the game, has more horsepower than the M3, not less. It also has a monstrous amount of torque compared to the M3. In real world situations, the M3 may be better, but it is within what I'll call a margin of error. In other words, with a different driver on a different track, the results might be different.

Again... I think the OP is just wrong. PD might not have gotten these cars perfect, but they are close enough. The '07 GT is complete crap and the '10 SS is good enough to compete against the '07 M3. And since it is notably cheaper than either of them, in game and out, I can't help but think it is a winner twice over.

Too bad it says GM on it. The game doesn't model the reliability issues that come with GM ownership.

no no no I was talking 2011 Mustang

-----

All in all It's VERY safe to say that the 07 Mustang is much slower then the 2010 Camaro

Ahyes, and that is my point. Others in the thread are talking about how good newer Mustangs are, and confusing the original topic. PD didn't get the 07 that wrong. It really wasn't good.

 

[LVracerGT]

Vol - there have been more than enough facts pointed out so far how both cars are flawed. The 07 Mustang being complete garbage is your (skewed) personal opinion.

I worked for Shelby Automobiles in Las Vegas and actually built and tested the 07-08 Shelby GT with the 4.6. And I can personally tell you the 07 Mustang was not built for looks. And I can guarantee you if the 07 had the kind of power/ weight ratio of the Camaro it would still put up the same kind of fight the current Mustang does, as the current Mustang is basically an updated version of the former with a new motor, and as the teams that run the older Mustang in the Continental series show.

Also, your comparisons between the Camaro and the M3 are flawed. Just because the Camaro has more power or torque does not mean it should be faster. You failed to consider torque and power curves of each motor, gear ratios, and most importantly weight. The Camaro is a cow compared to the M3, and the Mustang for that matter.

Furthermore, your comment that both cars are "lame" because they're American shows blatany that your comments on this thread are biased and narrow minded, and nothing more.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

Ahyes, and that is my point. Others in the thread are talking about how good newer Mustangs are, and confusing the original topic. PD didn't get the 07 that wrong. It really wasn't good.

I can agree

 

[dethringr]

first of all, the mustang is wrong. if you look at it, its not the US version mustang. it has reflectors in the bumper. and yes, the weight distribution is wrong. my 2011 v6 mustang out handles the GT5 versions. to say PD is bias toward the mustang is an under statement. Take a look at how much effort was put into the camaro. dont get me wrong. i love driving the camaro. both the 60's version and the modern. but the amount of attention given to chevy makes it look like GM paid off PD in a big way to make the camaro front and center.

 

[BoneSawTX]

Too bad it says GM on it. The game doesn't model the reliability issues that come with GM ownership.

not sure how they would model cheap interiors with more than annoying rattles and broken plastic bezels. engines and transmissions aren't their problem.

 

[Tornado]

PD might not have gotten these cars perfect, but they are close enough. The '07 GT is complete crap and the '10 SS is good enough to compete against the '07 M3.

Which is the exact reason why PD did not get them close enough.

Again... I think the OP is just wrong.

And, again, I don't see why anyone should take your opinion of the OP seriously, because:

Ahyes, and that is my point. Others in the thread are talking about how good newer Mustangs are, and confusing the original topic.

Your point was, and still is, meaningless; because there was still no one actually saying that.


And:

PD didn't get the 07 that wrong.

Yes they did. Objectively.

 

[calan_svc]

The Camaro in the game is obviously too fast.

Nonsense. There's no such thing.

 

[Raitziger]

I'm sorry, but... they are known to be good handling track cars by whom? Again, any review I've seen points out that the '07 GT handled horribly. It was for looks, not for driving.

Yes. I think he meant the "American" handling which means that it goes straight when you floor it at quarter mile New model actually good as many of you have pointed out previously.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Vol - there have been more than enough facts pointed out so far how both cars are flawed. The 07 Mustang being complete garbage is your (skewed) personal opinion.

I worked for Shelby Automobiles in Las Vegas and actually built and tested the 07-08 Shelby GT with the 4.6. And I can personally tell you the 07 Mustang was not built for looks. And I can guarantee you if the 07 had the kind of power/ weight ratio of the Camaro it would still put up the same kind of fight the current Mustang does, as the current Mustang is basically an updated version of the former with a new motor, and as the teams that run the older Mustang in the Continental series show.

Also, your comparisons between the Camaro and the M3 are flawed. Just because the Camaro has more power or torque does not mean it should be faster. You failed to consider torque and power curves of each motor, gear ratios, and most importantly weight. The Camaro is a cow compared to the M3, and the Mustang for that matter.

1) Find reviews that say that the 07 GT handled well? I doubt they exist. I've found evidence that it couldn't corner as well as the 10 SS. What have you found?

2) You work for Shelby. Again... let's stay on topic. We are only talking about the GT.

3) On a course with a lot of low speed corners, acceleration is going to be more important. I could see the SS beating the M3. On a course with higher speed corners, the M3 should be able to maintain its speed and have better exit speed. Again, find real life reviews that say the SS is worse than the GT or the M3? I doubt they exist. I haven't seen them.

first of all, the mustang is wrong. if you look at it, its not the US version mustang. it has reflectors in the bumper. and yes, the weight distribution is wrong. my 2011 v6 mustang out handles the GT5 versions. to say PD is bias toward the mustang is an under statement. Take a look at how much effort was put into the camaro. dont get me wrong. i love driving the camaro. both the 60's version and the modern. but the amount of attention given to chevy makes it look like GM paid off PD in a big way to make the camaro front and center.

The American version wasn't any better than the version used in the game. Stay on topic.

Yes they did. Objectively.

Produce the objects? I will agree that PD got them wrong. But I'm sorry, the 10 SS is much much better than the 07 GT in game and out. Produce the objects to the contrary?

Yes. I think he meant the "American" handling which means that it goes straight when you floor it at quarter mile New model actually good as many of you have pointed out previously.

Again, the new model may be, but it isn't the model we have in the game, so stay on topic, please.

 

[Tyger]

I might be missing the point here, but surely the Mustang in GT5 is a pretty basic model, and not really meant to be a match for the likes of the Camaro and Charger, which are more out-and-out sports cars? Downtuning the latter is not a true comparison as it would still have the various other performance parts which make them still handle pretty well.

Sure there are more powerful and better handling Mustangs they could've chosen, but that's the point, the 'Stang is available in quite a wide variety of specs and the one in GT5 happens to be one of the least powerful, slower ones. Generalizing it into a "Mustang vs. Camaro" argument is a little pointless, unless Chevrolet decide to bring out a more conservative, less powerful 4 or 6 cylinder version and PD put that in the game.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I might be missing the point here, but surely the Mustang in GT5 is a pretty basic model, and not really meant to be a match for the likes of the Camaro and Charger, which are more out-and-out sports cars? Downtuning the latter is not a true comparison as it would still have the various other performance parts which make them still handle pretty well.

Sure there are more powerful and better handling Mustangs they could've chosen, but that's the point, the 'Stang is available in quite a wide variety of specs and the one in GT5 happens to be one of the least powerful, slower ones. Generalizing it into a "Mustang vs. Camaro" argument is a little pointless, unless Chevrolet decide to bring out a more conservative, less powerful 4 or 6 cylinder version and PD put that in the game.

No, you aren't missing the point at all.

Though, I would like to point out the the 07 GT in the game is a V8. That particular V8 was pretty weak. That particular Mustang was sold as being very fuel efficient, thus the reason it was fitted with a weak engine.

 

[Tyger]

Exactly, you clearly have more knowledge than me of the models themselves. That said, it would be nice to have a sportier Mustang more on a level with the Camaro etc. Another case of PD including many cars, but not really thinking about how comparable they are.

 

[LVracerGT]

Vol - I stated in my last post that I built the GT with the 4.6. We took stock GT's and converted them to Shelby's. So I very much am on topic because I know what their performance was stock vs when we were done with them. It's also been pointed out that the premium Mustang in the game isn't the American version.

Again with your point about the M3 I would bet the Camaro has slower acceleration times than the M3. I'm at work but just for you I will research numbers between the M3 and the Camaro, as well as find a 07 Mustang review when I can.

 

[mu22stang]

You have to expect blatant bias in any car discussion involving two rival vehicles. Dash in some competing continent bias as an outside opinion and you have good ole fashion my-country/brand-makes-better-cars-than-your-country/brand keyboard brawl.

The real "fanboism," as I've seen it called in this thread, that startles me is the idea that Polyphony Digital created a virtual replica of over 1,000 cars. All the cars, every last one, have handling characteristics that can be called realistic. They all roll, pitch, dive, grip, spin, slide, rotate, etc. in ways similar to reality. In general, these characteristics pair well with the general layout of the car - a FR oversteers, a FF plows, an AWD has tons of grip, a RR lift-off oversteers, etc.

However, the data wasn't collected in such a way that a Mustang will handle exactly like a Mustang. The same is true for a Veyron, a GT-R, obviously any racecar, or any other car on the game. They simply developed a physics engine - one that has been refined quite a bit - to simulate reality. Some cars are close to their realistic counterpart, some are not.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot... Mustangs are better than Camaros.

 

[LVracerGT]

@ Mu22tang - lol

Vol - here is what a quick Google search provided

BMW M3
0-60 - 4.2 seconds
1/4 mile - 12.5 seconds

Camaro SS
0-60 - 4.6 seconds
1/4 mile - 13.3 seconds

There's your proof. You can cross check me but I assure you those numbers are from both premium models from GT5. So your argument that the Camaro is quicker than the M3 is not valid.

Edit: Also just found that the Camaro weight distribution is 52/48 F/R. Further proof the Camaro in GT5 is seriously flawed.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Edit: Also just found that the Camaro weight distribution is 52/48 F/R. Further proof the Camaro in GT5 is seriously flawed.

I'll stay out of the silly fanboy-bashing stuff(except to say that the ConTi arguments prove little, that is balanced competition in which the cars are nearly but not stock and many felt the Mustangs long had unfair advantages, not least being able to run a non-original engine -- and where the Camaros can run very competitively now with the difference largely being the teams involved, though they seem to tend to wear the tires more), but I do have a serious question.

Is the GT5 weight balance wrong, or just represented wrong? It says I believe 48/52 rearward, but in the air the front end clearly drops like a rock with no aero, like most front-biased cars seem to. That could be down to intrinsic aerodynamics or something else entirely, or perhaps could it just be that the displayed numbers are wrong?

 

[Tornado]

I've found evidence that it couldn't corner as well as the 10 SS. What have you found?

You've done nothing of the sort, because once again, there is more to handling than raw grip.

You posted some skidpad numbers, and then have spent the entire rest of the time using those as proof that the '05-'09 Mustang was a terrible car even after it was explained to you why your proof doesn't mean what you think it does.

I doubt they exist. I haven't seen them.

That's because they don't exist, because before you started this tirade no on in the world believed that a Camaro SS would be a remote competitor for the E92 M3.

It's pretty much just common sense when the Camaro has the same power, but is 400 pounds heavier and absolutely massive in comparison.

Produce the objects? I will agree that PD got them wrong. But I'm sorry, the 10 SS is much much better than the 07 GT in game and out. Produce the objects to the contrary?

So are you just trolling now, or what? Do I have to put it size 7 letters in an obnoxiously bright color before you understand the no one ever said the Mustang in the game should be faster than the Camaro, just that the Mustang is too bad and the Camaro is too good?

That particular Mustang was sold as being very fuel efficient, thus the reason it was fitted with a weak engine.

Do you have... any idea what you are talking about? You know what Mustang was sold as fuel efficient? The V6.

2) You work for Shelby. Again... let's stay on topic. We are only talking about the GT.

The American version wasn't any better than the version used in the game. Stay on topic.

Again, the new model may be, but it isn't the model we have in the game, so stay on topic, please.

Considering every post made by you in this thread has been arguing with people over something they never said, I suggest you cut this "get on topic" crap right out.

I might be missing the point here, but surely the Mustang in GT5 is a pretty basic model, and not really meant to be a match for the likes of the Camaro and Charger, which are more out-and-out sports cars? Downtuning the latter is not a true comparison as it would still have the various other performance parts which make them still handle pretty well.

The Camaro and Challenger are no more actual sports cars than the Mustang in the game is. The Challenger in particular is basically just a boulevard cruiser, with much softer tuning, way larger size and way more weight than the other two. All of the ones in the game are the top of the line model at the time, including the Mustang (though that depends on if you think the GT500 is part of the normal model range). It is just several years older than the other two.

 

[LVracerGT]

Morgoth - I don't think it's just wrong numbers. The Camaro in game has a rotation characteristic that is definitely rearward balance related.