ford vs. chevrolet

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chevrolet or ford

  • chevrolet

    Votes: 21 41.2%
  • ford

    Votes: 30 58.8%

  • Total voters
    51
I've owned a Chevy Cavalier, Chevy Monte Carlo Z34 and a Ford Escape.
Chevy blows without a doubt. Only way I'll ever get another Chevy is in a Corvette. Of course, famous last words and all that....:D
 
Originally posted by VenomousDrift
The Taurus in all trim levels comes standard with an alarm and remote trunk release. Heated seats are really of no interest to me. Lacking side curtain airbags is significant thing, but many of the cars in this class lack such bags.


Actually, I checked - the Volkswagen Passat, Mazda 6, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Saturn L-series, Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Stratus, and Subaru Legacy/Outback sedan either offer them or have them standard. Meanwhile, the Buick Century, Buick Regal, Chevrolet Malibu, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Sonata, Kia Optima, Mercury Sable, Mitsubishi Galant, and Pontiac Grand Am don't - that's a pretty even import/domestic-Korean split.

Admitedly the Taurus does not stand out ahead of it's competition in any one category, but at it's price, and with it's improved reliability, build quality, and option list, it's good lower priced car in the mid-size sedan field.

I certainly won't argue with that - reliability has been much improved since the mid-90s, the style's certainly better, and it's got a fairly good engine (in fact, the best domestic sedan V6 in my opinion). I spend much of my time in New York City and I can guarantee no matter how good it gets, I'd never have one there - did you know the "midsize" Taurus is longer than the Land Cruiser, new Range Rover, Chrysler Voyager, and Chevy Venture? It's huge!

I wish Ford would have kept the manual and SHO options

I agree on the SHO part - that was way ahead of its time in '89, when it debuted with a 220-horsepower V6 that could've taken any sedan of the time except a very small minority. One of my top forty used cars ever.
 
I don't understand why everyone hates the new Impalas, sure they're FWD V6s but they're comfortable, I think they have nice styling, they have a reliable engine and a nice interior. The new Impala SS has acceleration numbers and 1/4 mile numbers similar to the old Impala SS, with 20 less hp and a LOT less torque.

The new GTP IS a better car, though, and for similar money.
 
Originally posted by mayorbill11
I don't understand why everyone hates the new Impalas, sure they're FWD V6s but they're comfortable, I think they have nice styling, they have a reliable engine and a nice interior. The new Impala SS has acceleration numbers and 1/4 mile numbers similar to the old Impala SS, with 20 less hp and a LOT less torque.


On my huge western roadtrip, I met up with my uncle in San Francisco who rented one - it was white with a blue interior. On the inside, the fake wood was stupid, the dash looked as if it was designed in 1980, and the materials looked and felt cheap. Bonuses though - it was comfortable - the seats were ugly but very supportive. It's very cheap for what you get - $21160 for a 180-horsepower V6 getting 25mpg. Not enough stuff is standard though (where's the CD player?) and the car's very big. I wouldn't have one, but I wouldn't regard the people who do as stupid.

The new GTP IS a better car, though, and for similar money.

👍 One of GM's best efforts.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
Actually, I checked - the Volkswagen Passat, Mazda 6, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Saturn L-series, Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Stratus, and Subaru Legacy/Outback sedan either offer them or have them standard. Meanwhile, the Buick Century, Buick Regal, Chevrolet Malibu, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Sonata, Kia Optima, Mercury Sable, Mitsubishi Galant, and Pontiac Grand Am don't - that's a pretty even import/domestic-Korean split. [/B]

Hmm, suprises me that it's that even a spread these days. Oh well, it's for the better that more and more offer these options these days. :)

Mayorbill11, I beleive the gripe is with the fact that a S/C 3.8 Series 2 motored FF Impala is not a vaild SS in most peoples eyes since it is neither V8 nor RWD. Worse still were the dog slow, embaressments to the SS name plate up till now that have sported mere 200hp N/A 3.8L pushrod V6's. Styling leaves sum creativity to be desireds instead of Skyline/Corvette tailight clones and blah styling all around. Plus, many cars equal it's performance in the Quarter with smaller N/A motors that will prove more reliable over time. Mazda 6, Altima, and Maxima are all good examples of cars with more handling, more stlye, and MTX's, that also are as fast or faster with less displacement and N/A(the 6 is sporting only 3.0L and 220hp and will match any numbers I've seen for the new Imp SS).

The GTP is a large, straight line machine, that has gone down hill styling wise with the latest gen(purley my opinion), and is getting to be a impracticle beast with only FWD. I think sooner or later they will need to go with a RWD chassis or AWD on the car. Still, GM get's some kudo's for making such a powerful and quick sport coupe. On the other hand, I would rather see it done with a less than stone age tech motor, minus the blower, and with a 5-6 speed auto and 5-6 speed manual options.

Venom :cool:
 
Eww, a blue interior? that's garbage.

The ones with leather seats are nice, and yeah the dash is a little old looking, but I don't think it feels very cheap, it definetly isn't the best shape in the world though.

All of the Impalas i've been in, and they had nice interiors for my tastes, and these were beat on taxis.

all the taurus cabs ive been in have been complete and utter garbage though. crappy ride, garbage interior, and uncomfortable seats.
 
Personally, I think GM should use a turbocharged system on the engines instead of the supercharger, but the supercharger gets the job done.

GM is making engines with newer technology, and they will be going to RWD with these cars eventually, but these things take time. The cars need a manual for sure, though.

The thing about DOHC engines, is they're complex, they're heavier, and they take up more space on the top of the engine.
 
I'm sure Nissans VQ35 from the G35 is lighter than GM's Series III Supercharged 3.8L. DOHC doesn't automatically mean heavier.

As for Taurii, I know the '96-'99 cars have a very nice looking interior, especially in comparison to the competition, and I think the seats are fine, though I would like more side bolstering for the kind of driving I do. Build quality it at least equal to, if not far better than any thing else I've been in. For example, my friends '99 Maxima has got to have the cheapest feeling and most boring interior ever. :rolleyes:

Venom :cool:
 
I'm saying material for material.

If the VQ35 was all iron, it would weigh more than the 3800.

I'm basing my opinion on the current taurus, the seats are garbage front and rear and kink my back.
 
It might weigh more than a N/A 3.8L, but it also makes 85 more hp than an N/A 3.8L. Now, the S/C Series III probably weighs more than the VQ35 even if they were the same material simply because of all that S/C hardware needed to get 80 more ponies out of it's ancient OHV design.
 
I hope this isn't going to turn into an OHV vs. DOHC debate, mainly since overhead cams have been around longer than 'ancient' OHV engines, but I think a good comparison for this isn't the 3800 V6, but chevy's 5.6L LS1 and Nissans new 5.6L DOHC V8.
 
Originally posted by VenomousDrift
As for Taurii, I know the '96-'99 cars have a very nice looking interior, especially in comparison to the competition, and I think the seats are fine, though I would like more side bolstering for the kind of driving I do. Build quality it at least equal to, if not far better than any thing else I've been in. For example, my friends '99 Maxima has got to have the cheapest feeling and most boring interior ever. :rolleyes:

I hate the 96-99 Taurus interior, mainly because of the idiotic oval crap they were focusing on at the time:

96.ford.taurus.int.350.jpg


I haven't been in a '99 Maxima, but I rented a 2002 last December and its interior (dash especially) was hugely great - I was surprised, and I even considered buying one for a time.

Nissans new 5.6L DOHC V8.

The Mississippi one in the new Pathfinder Armada and Titan? Have you got any stats on the engine?
 
300hp/389lbft

i'm sure it has more potential, but the LS1's numbers have been better from the start, although i'm sure the nissan engine is smoother.

I don't think the chevy engine makes as much torque, however.

Upon further research, the GM engines don't make as much torque as the nissan engine, actually, the LQ9 6.0L V8 still makes 9 lb-ft less than the 5.6L nissan. I don't know what the bore x stroke is of the nissan, but it doesn't sound very oversquare...
 
Originally posted by M5Power
I hate the 96-99 Taurus interior, mainly because of the idiotic oval crap they were focusing on at the time:

96.ford.taurus.int.350.jpg

Guess it's a love it or hate it thing then, beause I find it much more interesting than most interiors...bout the only one I liked better was also the most comfortable I've ever been in, a Viper GTS. :D
 
many things to address. i will just stick to midsize cars. camry accord taurus intrepid lumina etc

given the same material, a OHC engine will weigh more than an OHV, if they are the same displacement or relatively close. an OHC will usually rev higher but and OHV will get more low down torque.

styling of the mid sizers is always going to rather bland. mazda, dodge and pontiac have the best in my opinion, in that order. but the dodge is a bit too large. the camry is just dull but the impala/ monte carlo is dreadfull. the others are marginal. honda seems to have lost the plot, styling wise, with its latest offerings, nissan is trying too hard. ford lost all credibility with that ugly fish looking thing from 98. the made over version is much better but is ugly just by being associated with its progenitor. winner, by a long shot; mazda. that 6 is just clean and sexy in the mid size group. runner up; pontiac, but only the top dog GTP model. nice aggressive look.

interiors of the big three suck. period. the plastics look and feel and sometimes smell too cheap. the switchgear is cheap looking poorly designed (from an aesthetic, not ergonomic or operational point of view!) and just scream 80s in too much of the time. esp the GM parts.
case in point; the generic double DIN stereo that GM has looks old, has nasty light grey plastic, and looks like its been cobbled together from assorted toy parts and leftover components from a science fiction movie. then the whole mess was painted a dull military grey. :yuck:

honda and toyota both have a plain, functional double din stereo that is finished in black plastic and looks much much better even though its just as boring a design. but it looks more coherent, is more aesthetically pleasing, and the large buttons (instead of smaller ones from GM) and their placement are more ....feng shui-ed for lack of a better term. toyotas is just a plain, boring radio found in everything from corollas to tundras, but it looks better than GMs unit.
same thing with things like HVAC and window switches. toyota camrys from the late eighties used the same window switches found now on just about every toyota with power windows, even some lexus models. the finish maybe different, but the quality seems to shine through, unlike GMs stuff which just screams 1980s like a miami vice rerun.


seat design looks newer and more contemporary in japanese cars.

the cloth used in the interiors also has the same problem. in the american cars it tends to look and feel cheaper and then retain smells better (not a good thing!!) over time. it fades quicker and gets spotted like a mangy horse if its cleaned too much. in the japanese cars the cloth is just cloth, but it seems better, looks better and lasts better. although the nissan stuff also looks like the other japanese stuff, it tends to be a little more frail and brittle. i dont know how good their interiors will be in the long run. too many people i know with rattles and squeeks from a one year old car. winner vw passat and were talking by a long margin here folks. luxury car interior, midsize car and price.(longevity still untested.) runners up; honda and toyota.

engines. some good (mazda, pontiac GTP but its a little rough and little loud! i guess that could be percieved as a performance benefit.) some very good (nissan and honda V6s) some that could be better (pontiac base V6, toyota, fords top level V6) and some that just suck (malibu and fords ancient vulcan.)
in refinement the chevys are pretty good, the honda too, and the good ford one. so are the nissan and honda at low revs.
in power the nissan and honda are excellent. they can purr at low revs and scream at high. the top pontiac engine is good on power, but has a low rev limit (by comparison!) and is a little rougher and louder than the japanese ones, it doesnt like to rev even though it almost can. winner honda. silky smooth powerful engines with low emissions. runners up; nissan and pontiac. runners up pontiac (torquey!) and nissan (more top end!)

handling. no questions. we're talking everyday handling and go auto crossing on weekends. winner mazda runner up; pontiac, but the GTP only.

reliability. this is where percieved quality can rear its head, esp for the domestics. fords tend to have a lot of ticky tack faults; steering rack, ignition, fuel tank, brakes, wipers, etc but the basic mechanicals seem to last. chevy, like a rock. period. honda. well engineered. toyota, same but questions about V6 engines and oil sludging. dodge, dodgy. nissan, durability of newer stuff still untested, but suspect. mazda, questionable only because of relationship to ford. vw, quality problems abound but its nt well known. winner honda only because they are less likely to rattle and squeek after ten years. runner up chevy.

thats my rant.

closing rant.
you cant compare the nissan endurance motor with the LS1 even though displacement is about the same. the nissan motor is a truck motor designed for low down torque and pulling a 5400lb vehicle. the corvette is about 2000lb lighter and is a sports car to boot. a more favorable comparison would be the S62 engine in the BMW M5. its little down on displacement, but its a large enough DOHC engine thats designed for a sports car. the AMG engines of that size are all blown, except for the last generation ones. and we dont want to compare truck/ car, last/ present gen motors.
 
yeah we could, but to me they're are both unappealing choices.

brick or hard rock. hmmmm. i'll take none of the above.

besides, to limit the comparison is a dis-service to either. there are better choices and products out there. and when they (the big three) ignored the imports back in the day, they ended up losing market share. thats why i think its important to compare them in the context of the markets in which they compete.

just comparing between the two is akin to fighting for last place.
 
I realised after further research that the nissan engine is DEFINETLY purpose built, but that still doesn't change the fact that the 4.8L, 5.3L, and 6.0L vortec truck engines are of the same family and very similar dimensions to the 346ci LS1 V8. I just picked that one because it was of similar displacement to the nissan 5.6L DOHC engine, but I guess in the end, it really isn't in the truck and doesn't count. A more accurate comparison would be the LQ9 6.0L (Escalade, Denali) to the 5.6L DOHC nissan.

My original point was to say that DOHC doesn't always equal more power, but I guess I over-estimated the LS1's torque numbers... by a lot. I can still make a point here, though and that is this; OHC vs. OHV is a pretty lame debate, since you usually can't compare any DOHC engine to any other OHV engine since there are too many variables. OHC seems to be the way things are going these days, but OHV still has it's merits as a tried and tested valvetrain system that can be very reliable, easy to package and easier to work on.
 
Well I personaly like Fords as of recently, the new SVT cobra has put ford on a "better" level. The fact that a 35,000 dollar car can beat a Ferrari 355 and is almost on par with a 52,000 dollar corvette...I think fords doing something right....
 
isnt the F355 the previous gen ferrari? thats not a good comparison. compare it to a more current 360 modena.

by comparing any two cars, then my old BMW can take out scads of porsches and some ferraris as well. very early ones, but so what?

i suppose one could compare the toyota V8 in the tundra and sequoia to the chevy 4.8 liter. they are close enough in displacement and both designed for trucks. i dont have the numbers at hand nor do i have the inclination to look for them. id say they're pretty close.
or even better is fords 5.4 liter and chevys 5.3. close enough in diplacement. both currently in production. i know the new 3 valve version of fords engine is supposed to be good for 300 horses. i think the old 2 valve one was 260. cant remember torque figures.
 
Originally posted by neanderthal

styling of the mid sizers is always going to rather bland. mazda, dodge and pontiac have the best in my opinion, in that order. but the dodge is a bit too large. the camry is just dull but the impala/ monte carlo is dreadfull. the others are marginal. honda seems to have lost the plot, styling wise, with its latest offerings, nissan is trying too hard. ford lost all credibility with that ugly fish looking thing from 98. the made over version is much better but is ugly just by being associated with its progenitor. winner, by a long shot; mazda. that 6 is just clean and sexy in the mid size group. runner up; pontiac, but only the top dog GTP model. nice aggressive look.


This is mad. The V6 Accord is the best-looking (don't like the tail-lights? Cry me a river. Then eat your face off. I don't want to hear it) because it's the most expensive-looking, followed by the Mazda, but only with the alloy wheels. Nissan and Volkswagen also kick ass in the styling segment. Pontiac GTP better looking than a V6 Altima is moot because Pontiac is not a member of this class.

winner vw passat and were talking by a long margin here folks. luxury car interior, midsize car and price.(longevity still untested.) runners up; honda and toyota.

Winner overall is the wonderful Passat, whose 170-horsepower four-cylinder starts at $22500, which is $7000 more than the 160-horsepower four-cylinder Accord. When the good word is value, not 'overall winner,' then the Accord takes another. But no import in serious contention does poorly in this category. 6, Camry, Accord, Passat, Altima - they're all good. Yeah, I left out the Galant. There's a reason.

handling. no questions. we're talking everyday handling and go auto crossing on weekends. winner mazda runner up; pontiac, but the GTP only.

Handling only, Mazda wins. Fine. Handling plus any other one category and Volkswagen wins. The Passat's just that cool.
 
Originally posted by Gran Turismo7058
Ford needs to die.
I think they should all blow up like a pinto would.

Ahh, and yet another mindless import drone rears it's ugly head. :D

M5, the Accord Sedan(the category we SHOULD be looking at here) is nucking fugly. I haven't found a single person who likes the Sedan's. Pontiac is out of the discussion(Coupe only GP GTP), and the BASE Passat cost more than most of the competition, plus, kicking in the Euro faction just makes this argument more heated. ;)

neanderthal, I noticed you had Mazda's motor's and Ford's Duratec V6(the top model one) in different categories. You obviosly don't know that Ford's Duratec 2.3L(Focus, Ranger, Mondeo, 6) and Duratec 3.0L(Taurus, Sable, Escape, Tribute, X-Type, S-Type, LS, and 6) power the Mazda 6. The Ford Duratec V6 is a award winning engine, a reliable engine, and an engine capable of making as much or more power reliably then either Honda or Nissan's top line V6's. Jaguar and LS models use a 235hp tune level, Mazda and Mondeo a 220hp. The 2.5L has made as much as 200hp. These are in tame, factory tune with economy, cali emisions, and quite running in mind. SVT Contour guys with 3.0L motors with absolutley no bolt ons make 240+hp, and with any sort of goodies quickly climb towards 280+hp. That's using the 200hp Taurus short block. Ford could easily make a reliable 250hp motor out of the 3.0L that exist now, but instead they have decided to build a 3.5L Duratec for the next gen cars, the Montego and 500.

Ford will soon be eclipsing the other two domestic makes with new Sedan's that will be on par with or superior to the Japanese competition. The Futura will be Ford's 6, amongst other models, and a new small Lincoln will be based fo the chassis as well. The 500 will have optional awd, 5 speed ATX's and CVT trannies. ;)

Daimler Chrysler is also back, with the new RWD LH platform, and MB parts galore. :D

GM...well they're giving us a less boring Malibu. Yep, instead of boring they're going for mind blowingly ugly. :D
 
Originally posted by Takumi Fujiwara
Ford wins, just because of their relation to Mazda.

But then again, Mazda Wins, because of their relation to Ford. They have access to Fords BIG Research Resources (not many companies have the money to put into research alone like Ford does). Ford spent $1.8 billion to develop the 2004 F-150. I cant really think of any other company that has that much money just for research and development. The F-150 is pretty good, considering its sales numbers. Ford sold 813,701 F-series pickups in 2002, which is more than the total sales of Mercedes, BMW, and VW in the US combined or the Total US sales of Nissan (source: Car and Driver, August 2003, pg. 22)...
 
Originally posted by VenomousDrift

M5, the Accord Sedan(the category we SHOULD be looking at here) is nucking fugly. I haven't found a single person who likes the Sedan's.


Yeah - I know. Those tail-lights are bad. Perhaps, because of the bad tail-light design, we should boycott the entire car. Transmission, seats, interior style, exterior style, brakes, wheels, tyres, cargo room, passenger room, stereo - doesn't matter. The tail-lights suck. I love narrow-mindedness, I do.

Pontiac is out of the discussion(Coupe only GP GTP),

Pontiac no longer makes a Grand Prix coupe, and even on the previous generation's model, the GTP was also made in sedan form.

and the BASE Passat cost more than most of the competition, plus, kicking in the Euro faction just makes this argument more heated. ;)

No it doesn't. Its base price is more than Toyota's base price, but it also comes with about double the featurs of the base Camry. A Camry with everything the Passat GL offers costs leagues more than the Passat GL. It's all about reading the price lists. 👍

Ford will soon be eclipsing the other two domestic makes with new Sedan's that will be on par with or superior to the Japanese competition. The Futura will be Ford's 6, amongst other models, and a new small Lincoln will be based fo the chassis as well. The 500 will have optional awd, 5 speed ATX's and CVT trannies. ;)

I know this. I cannot wait for it. It's going to come out, be leagues better than the competition, and everybody at Ford will celebrate until the cows come home.

Then they'll let it sit for seven years and get lapped by the competition. It happens every single time in the domestic car (not SUV, truck, or minivan) market.

GM...well they're giving us a less boring Malibu. Yep, instead of boring they're going for mind blowingly ugly. :D
:rolleyes: Why does the majority simply call things ugly? I guess it's easier to dismiss the problem as 'it's ugly' than to actually analyse the car, but give me a break - I'm sick of hearing the same line repeated for every single car that debuts.

Ferrari builds a brilliant, perfect supercar and 'it's ugly.' BMW builds the best sedan on Earth and 'ugly.' The new Acura TL has a class-best 270hp and some completely new features for the class. 'Ugly.' The Porsche Cayenne and Infiniti FX45 are the fastest SUVs ever produced, but hey - they're ugly. And of course, the best imported minivans of all time, the Nissan Quest and Toyota Sienna, loaded with power and spec. But what's the point of buying something so ugly?

If it's not boring and bland or exactly to one's specific tastes, then it's automatically ugly. Guess what? Not everybody has your exact tastes! And even less people would have your tastes if you jumped off a bridge. I suggest doing so.
 
M5

many people think the current version of the accord has lost its looks. its not just the rear lights, its also the front lights and artificially high trunk. other cars have had a high trunk and looked good; the mercedes W124, BMW E34, and current mitsubishi galant come to mind, but honda goofed there. also, in many cases, the wheels look too small. and NO i am not a fan of big wheels. its just that the proportions are not quite right.
"expensive looking" does not equate to beautifully styled. the last gen honda accord i would have placed in a tie with the mazda. its a beautiful, functional vehicle. anyway, the mazda still looks better than the current accord.

also the VW won the interior category in my post, not the over all category. i never posted an overall winner. theres many different winners as you alluded to. none of them outshine or outpeform significantly.

if you think the passat handles better than a honda or nissan i suggest you take one auto crossing. passats understeer almost as badly as the titanic.
ok, thats hyperbole, but you get the point. all the mid size cars have decent "everyday driving" street manners. why the 6 wins and the GTP comes second is that in addition to good regular street handling they can entertain at the road course too.

other peeps.

yes i know the duratec in the ford is the base for the mazda V6 as well as the MZR. however mazda does its own tuning and headwork to make the engines sweeter. hence its better grade. i am fully aware that the engine is capable of producing more power (european previous ford mondeo SVT or current mondeo ST220 has probably the sweetest version!) , but ford elected to NOT go that way, and i based my grades based on what the manufacturer sells here, not what the potential is. after all the 300M has basically the same block as the intrepid. that one is pumping out 253 horses from the factory, but the 300M is not in this comparo, the intrepid is.

we will see as to the futura. we know its going to be based on the 6. i do hope ford gets its act together with that car coz the domestics have basically just given up the largest sector of the US car market to the japanese. who have consistenty been raising the bar. ford needs a hoe run here coz its cars all basically suck.
the focus has been well recieved but is full of problems. the crown vic is antiquated. the taurus is still licking its wounds from its ugliness in the last generation, even though its an other wise competent car. its just that the japanese cars are better right now. ford and GM and dodge need to do better in this category.

ford wins, simply by its association with mazda? not if it cant deliver the goods. ford needs to improve on the mazda based products to make them winners. reskinning and rebadging a mazda is not going tobe enough. they need to be better.

BTW. the enzo may be fast and all that, but its ugly. the maclaren is beautiful by comparison. the porsche carrera GT is beautiful by comparison. and they are both supercars, one ten years old, so they are in the same league.
BMW does not build the best sedan on earth. which one is it. it cant be the 7 youre talking about (the ugly ugly sedan.) yes, its ugly too, hence its quick makeover its getting in the next year. id would say the best sedan BMW makes is the 330D, which we dont get here.
best sedan in the world is too dubious a title to ascribe toany one car. theres different classes of sedans. like the maserati quattroporte, mazda protege, mercedes E class and alfa 156 GTA could be compared. id say they qualify as challengers, but in different and respective categories.
 
Originally posted by neanderthal
M5

many people think the current version of the accord has lost its looks. its not just the rear lights, its also the front lights and artificially high trunk. other cars have had a high trunk and looked good; the mercedes W124, BMW E34, and current mitsubishi galant come to mind, but honda goofed there. also, in many cases, the wheels look too small. and NO i am not a fan of big wheels. its just that the proportions are not quite right.
"expensive looking" does not equate to beautifully styled. the last gen honda accord i would have placed in a tie with the mazda. its a beautiful, functional vehicle. anyway, the mazda still looks better than the current accord.


...in your opinion

Jesus, what does it take?

also the VW won the interior category in my post, not the over all category. i never posted an overall winner. theres many different winners as you alluded to. none of them outshine or outpeform significantly.

Yeah. I never said the Passat won the overall category. I never mentioned an overall category. I think you're wrong on the 'none of them outshine significantly,' but what's the point of taking that any further? It'll probably turn into a debate about the Accord's "artificially raised trunkline" in which you claim the current Mitsubishi Galant is good-looking. That's a debate I don't want to have.

if you think the passat handles better than a honda or nissan i suggest you take one auto crossing. passats understeer almost as badly as the titanic.

👍 Urban fathers go autocrossing very often.

ok, thats hyperbole, but you get the point. all the mid size cars have decent "everyday driving" street manners. why the 6 wins and the GTP comes second is that in addition to good regular street handling they can entertain at the road course too.

I'll say it again: The GTP is NOT in the same class as other family sedans. It's a mid-large sedan; its competitors are the Nissan Maxima, Lexus ES330, new Acura TL, Toyota Avalon, and (now defunct) Mazda Millenia S.

the focus has been well recieved but is full of problems. the crown vic is antiquated.

Eighty percent of Ford Crown Victorias and Mercury Grand Marks are sold to fleets. I will guarantee you that the ONLY reason they remain is because of this. Antiquated or not, Ford doesn't care - they don't make a profit selling these vehicles privately. They're simply not destined to be sold to the public.

BTW. the enzo may be fast and all that, but its ugly.

See? Why take it for what it is?! It's ugly! Burn it!

BMW does not build the best sedan on earth. which one is it. it cant be the 7 youre talking about (the ugly ugly sedan.) yes, its ugly too, hence its quick makeover its getting in the next year. id would say the best sedan BMW makes is the 330D, which we dont get here.

I've driven the new BMW 5-series and I've drawn the comparisons, and I can say that it's the best sedan in the world. Better than the E39; better than any E-class. You want to argue about its style? Go for it. But maybe one day you'll realise that styling is only a very important measure of judgement to posers.

You think the 7-series is ugly? Go buy an A8 and show BMW where you can take your money. Can't afford an A8? Shut up about the 7-series. If you're not buying Mercedes becuse of BMW's styling, I can guarantee you that neither BMW nor I care. It's sadly that simple.
 
I really don't like that GM dropped the Grand Prix coupe. the Gp has always been a coupe, it didn't even have a sedan variant until 1990.

I guess once the '88 came out, it wasn't even a traditional grand prix anyway.
 
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