Formula 1 Gran Premio de España Santander 2012

prisonermonkeys
But therein lies the problem - he hasn't been able often enough.

But by all means, downplay his mistakes. It's not his fault he spun off in qualifying. No, he was distracted by a low-flying bird that nobody else saw.

Pull the other one.
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Aren't you the one who downplayed Senna's qualifying speed last year, saying that qualifying is meaningless, because Senna wasn't able to change a good qualifying result into a good race result?

Yet, you criticize him now for not performing well enough in the 'meaningless' qualifying, and overlook the good race performance he has had so far.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Knowing how much you dislike Bruno Senna already (wouldn't be surprised if you said the opposite) which at times comes close to F1 fans treatment of Lewis. Yes he spun off, but doesn't detract that he has driven a good drive thus far, when qualifying starts to yield points toward the WDC and WCC then we should chat.
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I wasn't aware being stuck behind a Caterham was "a good drive".
 
Peter.
Aren't you the one who downplayed Senna's qualifying speed last year, saying that qualifying is meaningless, because Senna wasn't able to change a good qualifying result into a good race result?

Yet, you criticize him now for not performing well enough in the 'meaningless' qualifying, and overlook the good race performance he has had so far.
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They're not really contradictions IMO.

Qualifying pace is important, but it's null if you can't perform on a Sunday. It's still important to qualify well though.
 
prisonermonkeys
I wasn't aware being stuck behind a Caterham was "a good drive".
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Well that's funny, see rationally the idea is to judge based on a series of events and not just one. Either way doesn't change the fact that when it comes to the topic of Senna you're biased in a negative way toward him, thus the post only shows a quick casting of stones. Let's grow up and wait a bit and then finally say yay or nay, five races doesn't tell the story.

ExigeEvan
They're not really contradictions IMO.

Qualifying pace is important, but it's null if you can't perform on a Sunday. It's still important to qualify well though.
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That's not what he is saying is a contradiction. He is saying that PM is just finding a reason to dislike Senna. He says that qualifying in terms of Senna is good but nothing ever forms from it last year. Yet this year he spins out in one session and guess what, it's all a downward spiral. Let's forget about doing well prior.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
That's not what he is saying is a contradiction. He is saying that PM is just finding a reason to dislike Senna. He says that qualifying in terms of Senna is good but nothing ever forms from it last year. Yet this year he spins out in one session and guess what, it's all a downward spiral. Let's forget about doing well prior.
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Fair enough.
 
prisonermonkeys
I wasn't aware being stuck behind a Caterham was "a good drive".
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A look at the lap chart will show that Vettel and Webber were also stuck behind Kovaleinen, and therefore Senna, for the same amount of time, so I don't see how you can single out Senna there.
 
Money talks, and Senna is #2 in the team.

He's going at some 90% (and still getting himself in trouble, I'll give you that), and even if he was going 110% he couldn't beat Pastors' car, or maybe even be allowed to do so.

His only chance this year is a race like Monaco and getting a bit lucky. Car and money ironically mean less in this track.

That is the only reason I brought this up. Not just because he's a Senna at Monaco, but because it's the only place he can, with a bit of luck, show his speed.

Not expecting a great season (career even?) from him. As much as I'd like him to be, he is not the "second coming".
 
hornet_burnout
Money talks, and Senna is #2 in the team.

He's going at some 90% (and still getting himself in trouble, I'll give you that), and even if he was going 110% he couldn't beat Pastors' car, or maybe even be allowed to do so.

His only chance this year is a race like Monaco and getting a bit lucky. Car and money ironically mean less in this track.

That is the only reason I brought this up. Not just because he's a Senna at Monaco, but because it's the only place he can, with a bit of luck, show his speed.

Not expecting a great season (career even?) from him. As much as I'd like him to be, he is not the "second coming".
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You say that Bruno wouldn't be allowed to beat Pastor's car, but what was he doing for the first 3 races. Pastor's only beaten him this race. Sure he did it by completely annihilating Bruno, but I still think that they're of a similar skill level, it's hard to tell though.
 
I seriously doubt (or hope) there's no favouritism between Bruno and Pastor at Williams. Sure, Maldonado took a win but overall I think it's still hard to say which of them is "the #1 driver" of the team.

On the other hand, I hope Senna get's sacked as soon as possible to give Bottas a drive :lol:
 
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Judging by what Sir Frank said after the race, it would seem that Pastor has went up a great deal in his estimation.

And I'd like to see Bottas in there too.
 
So what if Senna had a bad race. Maldonado had plenty of bad races last year and also this year.

Maldonado has improved, massively since the start of 2011, when he looked like a real amateur, driving down the marbles on the back straight at Sepang and wondering why he was outbraking himself into the hairpin... Also later in Abu Dhabi where he was driving all over the place trying to get out of the way of the leaders, but only obstructing them more with his erratic driving.

In Barcelona we saw a different Maldonado. He was calm, composed and kept a consistent, quick pace all through qualifying and the race. He looked after his tyres well and fought off the pressure from a world champion driver gaining on him who is widely regarded as one of the best overtakers in the sport. It's very reminiscent of Vettel's win in 2011, only in a car which everybody thought was not possible to win in.

Senna is not consistent enough at the moment but consistency can come with time. I certainly don't think they should be looking at replacing him at the current time. If Maldonado can challenge for podiums and Senna is still going out in Q1, then we can call judgement on him.

After all, who thought Maldonado was capable of that sort of performance before this weekend?
 
He drove a fantastic race. Didnt let the pressure overcome him at all and Williams did a fantastic job making the right calls for him. Now Brunno Senna needs to improve fast. Not sure why he is being affected by the reserve driver a lot and not having enough laps on the car and this race he was on the wrong place at the wrong time when Schumi drove into him. Hopefully Williams can carry the moment over to Monaco. The fast cars wont win a race, the ones that does a better job with their tires will. This championship is looking to be the best ever. Go F1.
 
Bruno has got talent and I totally agree consistency has caught him out.

Last year at Belgium, he punched way above his team's weight by slotting his car 7th on the grid at Belgium ahead of teammate Petrov but Bruno was called back into the team after Nick Heidfeld was removed as an interim driver and that race was his first in 2011. The guy's got talent and its just a case of nurturing that into race pace and consistency.

After all, you don't make it into F1 on sponsorship alone.
 
Chqr
Bruno has got talent and I totally agree consistency has caught him out.

Last year at Belgium, he punched way above his team's weight by slotting his car 7th on the grid
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Hey, was that the race his clearly-more-talented now-teammate ran as a rolling roadblock in qualifying and then tried to take another driver out quite deliberately?
 
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^I'm not sure how being caught up with Barrichello behind a Caterham/Lotus is considered a "rolling roadblock". Hamilton caught them at an awkward moment and made a silly move trying to set his time still with traffic in the way. None of them had to move out of the way as they were all trying to set a time. Of course that doesn't excuse what happened afterwards but well rolling roadblock..really?
 
True. I suppose a road block is actually on the road the majority of the time.
 
Alex p.
Proving my point.

Thank you.
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Proving that you're still incapable - after 40 Infraction Points - of discussing a topic and not the people discussing it. The topic isn't even Schumacher this time, so I'd love to know how you're working my supposed anti-Schumacher bias into it!

Choose your next segue carefully - it may be your last.
 
gorsad
You say that Bruno wouldn't be allowed to beat Pastor's car, but what was he doing for the first 3 races. Pastor's only beaten him this race. Sure he did it by completely annihilating Bruno, but I still think that they're of a similar skill level, it's hard to tell though.
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I mean last event, Maldonado was "it". If Senna had gotten close to him in the race I'm sure they would tell him to "save fuel" or something.

To be perfectly clear, I consider Senna (and Grosjean) much better than Pastor (as in faster, smarter and more consistent).

The only consistent bit of driving Pastor did was the qualifying lap (half a second slower than pole), and "forever alone" win a race from a still struggling Ferrari. (I've been biting my tongue and trying not to take merits from his win but... there, I've said it...) Not sure we're gonna see much more of him this season.

Pastors' 68 million petro-dollars means he can do just about anything in F1. I didn't like what he did to Alonzo at this race start, even if it was within the rules, nor what he did to Hamilton
Famine
Hey, was that the race his clearly-more-talented now-teammate ran as a rolling roadblock in qualifying and then tried to take another driver out quite deliberately?
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or even the avoidable accident with Grosjean... But his money means everyone that matters (his sponsor, Bernie and his friends/pockets) will be happy with good results and disregard his, hum... "mishaps".

There is one thing I like about NASCAR. You can (actually must) buy a ride, but have to earn respect on track. In NASCAR Pastor would be getting the wall. A lot... And nobody would care.
 
hornet_burnout
Pastors' 68 million petro-dollars means he can do just about anything in F1. I didn't like what he did to Alonzo at this race start, even if it was within the rules, nor what he did to Hamilton.
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He wasn't the only one who did that at a race start but what he did to Hamilton? Putting him back behind the grid?
 
InvincibleM5
He wasn't the only one who did that at a race start but what he did to Hamilton? Putting him back behind the grid?
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Referring to a previous incident. Like I said, people disregard his mishaps. Forget... (and apparently delete from youtube, at least I couldn't find it there anymore)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xk...s-hamilton-after-qualifies-is-over_shortfilms

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And Alonso did not criticize Pastor directly but, here:
http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/7742154/Alonso-laments-lack-of-mutual-respect
 
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daan
A look at the lap chart will show that Vettel and Webber were also stuck behind Kovaleinen, and therefore Senna, for the same amount of time, so I don't see how you can single out Senna there.
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Exactly, proving my point indirectly. Thanks Daan.
Either way I think Williams are going to put on a good show at Monaco.
 
hornet_burnout
I didn't like what he did to Alonzo at this race start, even if it was within the rules.
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To be fair, I saw the start of the race as a hard but fair attempt at making Alonso work hard for the move. He still left a gap for Alonso to make the move stick and conceded at the right time when he needed to.

That move was actually judged really well from Ginsters for that time.
 
I don't like talking about old incident especially when it's clearly off topic in this thread but can we get rid of this already, and by the sound you don't like Maldonado at all?

I know he was underperformed, way too inconsistent, having lots of problems on the track and crating a lot of accidents but is he the worst F1 driver ever? No. The way I'm seeing is that Pastor has matured himself over the winter and even at the start of the season, he was fast and with his first race win, surely this will give him the motivation to be a much more proper driver. Will we see more of him later this year remains to be seen...
 
hornet_burnout
The only consistent bit of driving Pastor did was the qualifying lap (half a second slower than pole), and "forever alone" win a race from a still struggling Ferrari. (I've been biting my tongue and trying not to take merits from his win but... there, I've said it...) Not sure we're gonna see much more of him this season.
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I take it you were watching the race with your eyes closed? :confused: Pastor was being pressured immensely by Fernando but not once did he crack. Even when the Ferrari on newer tyres was closing the gap he kept his cool and didn't attempt drive too much faster to extend the gap again (doing so would have destroyed his tyres). Instead he prepared himself to defend and did so very well, when the time came. It would have been so easy for him to panic and make an error with Alonso all over his gearbox but he didn't. Face it, he drove a smart and consistent race.
 
Submerged
To be fair, I saw the start of the race as a hard but fair attempt at making Alonso work hard for the move. He still left a gap for Alonso to make the move stick and conceded at the right time when he needed to.

That move was actually judged really well from Ginsters for that time.
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Never said it was not fair... I just think as Alonso.

InvincibleM5
I don't like talking about old incident especially when it's clearly off topic in this thread but can we get rid of this already, and by the sound you don't like Maldonado at all?

I know he was underperformed, way too inconsistent, having lots of problems on the track and crating a lot of accidents but is he the worst F1 driver ever? No. The way I'm seeing is that Pastor has matured himself over the winter and even at the start of the season, he was fast and with his first race win, surely this will give him the motivation to be a much more proper driver. Will we see more of him later this year remains to be seen...
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I've said it before, I like the gutsy and fast Maldonado since GP2. Not the agressive rammer he is/was/can be. We basically agree, but you believe Pastor has matured, I think we are yet to see. This one performance and composure is very good, but meaningless if not maintained.

csmeteora9
I take it you were watching the race with your eyes closed? :confused: Pastor was being pressured immensely by Fernando but not once did he crack. Even when the Ferrari on newer tyres was closing the gap he kept his cool and didn't attempt drive too much faster to extend the gap again (doing so would have destroyed his tyres). Instead he prepared himself to defend and did so very well, when the time came. It would have been so easy for him to panic and make an error with Alonso all over his gearbox but he didn't. Face it, he drove a smart and consistent race.
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My eyes were and are well open. I saw him win an almost perfect race.

But as I said, winning ONE race, with no "decent" opposition, does not make him a consistent driver automatically. You get that by being... well, consistent, over time.

What he did was, quoting Sir Frank Williams on his performance:
"As the race goes on the pressure grows to not think about being on the podium, about what your mother's going to say, how much the prize money is going to be, not to crash, not to make mistakes, brake a little earlier, look after the car."

Which is hard enough (especially for him?), but let's not make this a immense feat and Pastor one of the great ones. Yet...

Unless you're Venezuelan. Then I totally get it.
 
hornet_burnout
I've said it before, I like the gutsy and fast Maldonado since GP2. Not the agressive rammer he is/was/can be. We basically agree, but you believe Pastor has matured, I think we are yet to see. This one performance and composure is very good, but meaningless if not maintained.
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Yes, he has matured over the winter from my point of view, at least. He no longer made stupid lunges, super-aggresive blocking, idiotic rage after qualifying and all of those stuff he made last year. He has become much more of a racing driver now.

True though, he needs to maintain this performance up but by the looks of things this season, that ain't the case. One car can be strong while some of the rest struggles. Comes Monaco, like last year, he will be strong. With the Williams being much more competitive, I have no doubt that he can show something for us there. The next couple of races remain to be seen surely.
 

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