Formula 1 Formula 1 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix 2020

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Jimlaad43, Nov 24, 2020.

  1. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Stroll had come on from the right fo the track a few seconds earlier and a car was coming on from the left. I think Grosjean was anticipating the pack in front of him having to slow, so he went to the right where he thought he was clear. Obviously he wasn't. I think the accident was entirely Grosjean's fault. He was saved by good design, by the FIA's push for safety, and by some very good luck. If the survival cell had stayed inside the barrier it could have been impossible for him to escape. If the fuel tank itself had ruptured then the fire would have even greater.

    One thing's for certain, this accident illustrates exactly why the Medical Car trails them for the first lap. Can that be improved? Should we send a second car with nomex-clad rescue crew with their own firefighting equipment? The sport (and other sports) should always look hard at accidents like this to see where the preparation or response can be improved.
     
  2. Daz555

    Daz555

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    The medical car needs a follow-up vehicle that can tackle a fire like that. Medics can't help if a driver is trapped in a burning wreck.
     
  3. PaMu1337

    PaMu1337

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    Pietro Fittipaldi will drive Grosjeans car this weekend

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  4. Blitz24

    Blitz24 Premium

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    That makes him a 3rd generation Fittipaldi (Grandson of Emerson, Great Nephew of Wilson and first cousin once removed of Christian). I know F1 has had multiple two generation families (Hill, Villeneuve, Senna, Andretti, Rosberg), but have they ever had 3 generations?
     
  5. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    YouTube video from The Race that shows information on what happened in the accident.

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  6. PaMu1337

    PaMu1337

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    I think it's indeed the first time, but I feel it's cheating a bit with how distantly Pietro is related to Christian
     
  7. GroupB

    GroupB Premium

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    The problem with having a firefighting vehicle trail the pack is that the most effective firefighting vehicles are big, lumbering, and heavy. Expecting it to complete a lap before being caught by the pack would be problematic.
     
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  8. EngieDiesel

    EngieDiesel

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    Grosjean will be out of the hospital on Tuesday, looks like the burns to the back of his hands were the worst of it. X-rays came back showing no fractures, thankfully.
     
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  9. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    They could use one of those mini fire engines you see in Japan.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  10. TenEightyOne

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    I don't think that's how it would work at all. You could just use another Merc estate, it needs to carry two crew and a supply of extinguishers. It doesn't need to carry a fire engine or a large reservoir. If the weight of equipment becomes an issue then send two fire Mercs, each with less aboard.
     
  11. Jezza819

    Jezza819

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    This incident is one of those things where even people that don't follow racing have seen something about it. I've had at least 6 or 7 people I work with, who have no interest in racing, come up to me this morning to ask me about it because they know I do follow it.
     
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  12. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    I counted 5 videos about the crash in the top 10 of YouTube's Trending playlist today. It wouldn't surprise me 1 bit if the Sakhir Grand Prix is the most watched race of the year with the amount of attention F1 got from that crash.
     
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  13. Milouse

    Milouse

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    Yesterday, the main french public channel TV news presenter talked about the crash of "Sebastien Grosjean".
    One hour later, on the 1st french TV channel, TF1, the presenter of the sport news segment said again "Sebastien Grosjean". Grosjean's wife works for that channel...
    I think this tells a lot about how F1 in France, in a few decades, moved from a popular sport widely covered to a pay-channel show (audience are good for Canal +, but are only a fraction of what they used to be when on free channels).
     
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  14. Samus

    Samus

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  15. XJ40

    XJ40

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    I like the honesty of Haas in leaving it untouched until the FIA have had a look at it. If there are improvements to be made in their design or F1 cars in general then better to learn them now.

    The design of the extinguisher of marshal number one needs improving. Thankfully the other marshal knew he had a supercharged extinguisher and used that.
     
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  16. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    There was absolutely nothing wrong with that fire extinguisher, it was just the wrong one for that situation.

    One marshal used Foam/water (the one in question for being poor), while the other used Powder. Powder is perfect for knocking flames down, foam is used to douse or cover things like fuel spills and to cool. In a big inferno like that, you want the Powder to knock the flames back and restrict the Oxygen going to the fire.

    Both extinguishers are vital for Fire Fighting on race circuits. In the heat of the moment when a fireball like that appears it can be very easy to pick the wrong one up. Of course, there might have just been foam at that point, with the powders at other points on that post. You always try to spread them out equally, but sometimes there's a spare one, or not enough to cover a point.

    I'm not going to comment on what caused him to pick up foam, whether it was a conscious decision or the only one available, but he does need commending for seeing a car come at him, going through a barrier and burst into such large flames right in front of him, and to then instantly grab a bottle and run towards it. I can tell you that it sometimes isn't easy to run straight back towards something that's just thrown itself at you. I can do nothing but commend him for acting instantly to a situation many people could have frozen in.
     
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  17. shoemaker

    shoemaker

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    No need, just use the tv helicopter to carry a 6000 litre bucket of water to drop on it like they do in bush fires.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  18. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, but holy hell there are so many reasons that's a bad idea.
    • That's very heavy if it gets dropped on your head.
    • Ever seen video of people pouring water on a saucepan of oil on fire?
    • Grosjean's car had loose wires to very high voltage batteries. Water plus that is not a good idea.
    • What happens if it misses or fails nowhere near a fire? Dropping the entire tub of water on Turn 1 as the leaders brake for it is just asking for a pile-up we don't need.
    • Or dropping it on a Grandstand full of people.
    • Expensive?
    • Impractical.
     
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  19. XJ40

    XJ40

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    Of course you are right, it was just the difference between the extinguishers that was a surprise, and now I know why. :tup:
     
  20. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Or foam in the Bernie sprinklers, I bet nobody's thought of that!
     
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  21. -Fred-

    -Fred- Staff Emeritus

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    [​IMG]

    But in G63 guise.
     
  22. Samus

    Samus

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    Pretty sure shoemaker was being sarcastic.

    I don't think there is much more than can be done from a fire POV. Fire marshals are already dotted around the tracks, enough that can get anywhere within I think 30 seconds, is the requirement? With other fires in recent years we've not really seen any speed issues and other than the first marshal seemingly picking up the wrong one in the pressure of the situation, everything otherwise went just about correctly yesterday in that regard.

    The main thing they'll be looking at I think is the barrier safety and the car splitting in two, and why the fire happened at all.
     
  23. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888 Premium

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    I didn't think that Haas had a car for him to race.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  24. TenEightyOne

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    Too high off the ground, too heavy to start with, and I believe it only has 20bhp more than the Medical Car.

    Really you only need to deliver fireproofed people and extinguishers. Getting the fire out is the only priority for them, particularly around the driver. Everybody and everything else is in the Medical Car or on its way. You could even fit the Mercedes estate (wagon) with a custom back (think European ambulances) and stick a large foam shooter on top with a tank in there.

    If it can be thought of then F1 could implement it :D
     
  25. Samus

    Samus

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    All teams have a spare chassis with them at every event, along with enough spare parts to build another car, just in case.
     
  26. Blitz24

    Blitz24 Premium

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    Are we required to have a Euro-styled siren on the medical car, in this case?
     
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  27. wfooshee

    wfooshee Premium

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    As far as I know, this is the first fuel fire from an accident in F1 since Gerhard Berger went off at Tamburello in Imola in 1989. (I'm not counting oil fires or small fries from blown engines, I'm talking about spilled fuel from a car crashing.) Before that I think you have to go to Monza in 1978, Ronnie Peterson's Lotus.

    They had fuel cells in Berger's day, and carbon fiber monocoques, but the fuel cells were still allowed to be carried in the sides of the car. Moving the fuel cell to the space behind the driver was a direct result of that incident, and like I said, as far as I know this is the first fuel fire in a crash since that time. (No, the Benetton pit fire doesn't count; that wasn't a crash!! :lol: )

    Everyone's talking about how this never should have happened, the car can't be allowed to break that way, the fuel cell should never have been penetrated, the barriers were just stupid, but everyone needs to calm down a minute.

    As for the barriers, how are they different from what lines the entire circuit at Monaco? As for the angle of the barriers, every race track in the Universe has angled barriers protecting service roads, roads where vehicles such as tractors and cranes will need access to the track. The barrier has to angle out to keep the end of the other barrier from presenting an abutment to the track. Also, the barrier is nearly halfway down a long straight, where no out-of-control cars are expected. Still, tire barriers with a conveyor-belt cover seems reasonable. Thing is, tire barriers aren't best with glancing impacts, the kind you'd expect on a straightaway; they work best for the mostly head-on event like this ended up being. A car hitting a tire barrier at an angle can get buried in the tires and suffer a harder stop than simply sliding along a steel barrier. (Still not as hard a stop as this one was!)

    As for the car breaking in half, there was speculation earlier in the thread about a basic design defect. Ever since 1967's Lotus 49, the rear of the car has used the engine as its structure. The engine bolts to the back of the car, and the engine carries everything that lives back there: suspension, transmission, rear wing, all of it. This accident was not exactly head-on into the barrier, although very close; there was a vector down the track that wrenched the back of the car along the barrier, obvious from where it ended up after the accident. That wrenching is also what turned the front of the car pointing back down the reverse direction of the track. The mass of the engine was simply too much for the fitments to bear when the tub stopped in the barrier. the engine broke off and continued a few meters. The alternative to bolting the stressed-member engine to the back of the car is to build a tub, like the driver's cell, and put the engine in there. It still has to carry a lot more weight than a driver, and would still be subjected to massive shearing forces in an accident like this one, and that shearing force would act on the driver cell rather than being removed from it altogether.

    We don't know, and may never know, how much fuel was actually spilled. They reported that "smarter minds than ours" were saying it was simply the collector, between the fuel cell and the engine, that was ruptured. Others said that was still too big a fire to come from the couple of liters of fuel that the collector apparently holds. (I personally don't know what the collector actually is, or its volume.) Whether the actual main fuel cell was ruptured is still not verified publicly. I am of a mind that agrees with those saying if they main cell had spilled the fire would have been even more monstrous than it was, perhaps almost an order of magnitude, but I still think it was too much for a couple of liters to account for. It's all speculation for us at this point. The teams and the FIA will put their best people onto looking at that car, to find where the fuel came from and how much of it there was.

    So the accident was "the perfect storm" of F1 accidents. It happened along a straightaway, where accidents rarely happen. The car was nearly head-on into the barrier, which was built anticipating glancing impacts. The nose of the car speared between rows of the steel, which no other part of the car would have done. But as bad as it was, it absolutely demonstrates how far cars and crews have come in the modern Formula One organization. That driver cell was cracked but intact, all the way down to the foot box, although nothing remained ahead of that; The halo was intact, the roll hoop was intact. The medical car was there within seconds, and Grosjean was already extricating himself, they didn't have to go in after him. (Think about getting out... release the belts, throw away the steering wheel, get rid of the headrest piece, find the space between the halo and the barrier and squeeze up through that, with fuel burning underneath and all around.) The marshal behind the barrier was headed back to the car just as quickly as he saw his own danger had passed, although he wasted a bit of his extinguisher triggering it on the way in. The response of the FIA people was absolutely amazing! Having done corner working myself at Barber Motorports Park, I just can't imagine our crew's response to such an incident!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  28. TenEightyOne

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    In terms of approaching this crash, yes. What we saw here was a high speed car grabbed and held by the front end, pivoting the vehicle and almost throwing the back end away with centrifugal force (relative to the temporary pivot formed by the "grabbed" monocoque).

    Where and how it breaks is going to be the subject of design changes, for sure, but in accidents this massive in this way it's almost irrelevant (imo) as long as some of the conserved momentum is dissipated through mechanical events that don't contain the driver.

    I still think the single biggest improvement to that particular response would be a vehicle that's able to spray retardant over an accident as soon as it arrives - and I still think that could be built into a high-speed AMG estate chassis (or similar). That could have been reducing the fire about 10s earlier than the marshalls were able to, even with the stellar job they were doing.
     
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  29. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    The one thing about this whole accident that's annoyed me the most is how people still put to "L's" in the word "Marshal". Marshalls was trending on Twitter after the accident rather than Marshals with one L because people were getting it wrong over and over again.
     
  30. daan

    daan Moderator

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    I know he did a great job in helping to put the fire out, but that marshal still ran across the track carrying a fire extinguisher. That hasn't went well in the past.
     
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