Formula 1 Pirelli British Grand Prix 2021Formula 1

[ScottPuss20]

Dude, Seriously?



You're seriously going to bang on about punishing drivers for causing crashes, yet defend ^that? A crash in that scenario would've caused much worse results than what we saw in Silverstone this weekend, and there was a greater risk for one of those incidents to effect multiple drivers. That's why it's important to spend more time focusing on the incident rather than the end result.

If you think that standard of driving is acceptable, than quite frankly your ability to judge dangerous driving in an objective manner is not at all trustworthy.

Fair enough. I guess my logic has hit the wall.

Because you're primarily focusing on the end result, not the cause of the result. It's entirely possible that you perhaps put yourself in a bad position which played a part in making wreck happen, as we saw with Hamilton and Verstappen. I don't know, since all I'm hearing is your side of the story.

In both your and my own examples, we have 2 cases of a driver being unintentionally negligent, with both incidents resulting in a crash, difference being the circumstances that led up to it. Again, who gets the penalty in the example I gave, or does no penalty get handed because the "victim" were the cause of their own demise?

Ah good to know, I stand corrected in that regard. I'd still call it bad stewarding if the penalty was handed down only because it caused a crash, and not just because it was a dangerous move to begin with (also doesn't help that I'm only getting your side of the story with no replay or anything else).

You still didn't answer my question on how an online series with a clearly different ruleset and standard to driving (and cars for that matter) is relevant here.

Verstappen started to make space to set himself up for Copse (and possibly give HAM a little extra space), but then proceeded to go for the apex, which he had every right to do since Hamilton was not at all in a position to make a solid challenge. At that point he effectively cut across Hamilton's nose, which resulted in the wreck. During this entire time Verstappen is aware of Hamiltons position, and very much could've allowed himself to go wide and understeered further to avoid a wreck.

Once again, both drivers played a major role in the incident.

It also sets a precedent where drivers can be punished differently for the same type of accident depending on how the wreck transpires and who is/isn't involved. That's a great way to remove objectivity from a judgement, which you seem to be a-ok with.

Okay I think I should explain my reasoning in a more concise way.

You see, in that incident I described in Assetto Corsa Competizione, the driver behind pushed me in the rear and I went off the track. Now in the rules of the league, it explicitly says that if you make contact with someone you must redress or receive a 25 second penalty. Many cases like mine have occurred and the penalty is always the same. I originally thought that the penalty was given as a result of the time I lost, rather than the act of him driving into me and failing to redress. Realising this, I understand why the 10 second penalty was handed down to Hamilton and I understand why the punishment must be consistent no matter what happens to the victim. I can see how corrupt the penalties can become if we look at the consequences after an accident. I don't think the penalty was large enough but if that's what the FIA does in all cases, so be it. I'm none the wiser.

 

[Northstar]

It's hard to understand that Lewis Hamilton almost killed a young man and didn't even apologised for it.

Seriously, give it a rest already if you have any desire to be taken seriously. Max wasn't "nearly killed", he hopped out of the car pretty much unassisted, as seen within the first few seconds of this video.

 

[kilesa4568]

Deleted

 

[Groundfish]

And this is at all, any different to Toto claiming he had data proving Lewis did nothing wrong? Remember, it's sitting in Michael's inbox

No. Not really. That leads me to this crash never would have happened had there not been the sprint race.
Hamilton knew after the sprint race if he did not get ahead he had no chance on pace alone…
Also he tried one move that didn’t work then another in the “real race”
I don’t like this pre real race sprint idea.
I think it’s inappropriate somehow.

I am still willing to give this a chance but my instinct tells me there are better ways to improve the overall weekend.

I gotta say having a sprint race is an awful idea for MANY MANY reasons.
You have practice-qualifying-race.
I don’t even think much of knockout qualifying or whatever.
The sprint race created the huge crash imo because had there not been a sprint Hamilton would have not gone inside, there.
So, having a sprint imo will always lead to more incidents, since now you have drivers trying multiple tactics multiple chances etc.
For my take I don’t believe in a pre race sprint race that affects the grid order.
It’s a dumb gimmick and F1 ought to be better than that.

The sprint race showed Mercedes they had no chance against the Red Bull’s Honda power so it created this desperate first lap lunge move that could have killed Max or ended his career or both at those speeds…

 

[GingerBredMan]

The sprint race showed Mercedes they had no chance against the Red Bull’s Honda power so it created this desperate first lap lunge move that could have killed Max or ended his career or both at those speeds…

So basically Max is just going to weave around track and squeeze anyone he wants, and the moment someone tries to pass him it's attempted murder

I look forward to the "he deserved it" comments when Max inevitably punts Lewis in to a wall later this season.

 

[kilesa4568]

The sprint race showed Mercedes they had no chance against the Red Bull’s Honda power so it created this desperate first lap lunge move that could have killed Max or ended his career or both at those speeds…

But it didn't. He walked away. Wiser, I hope.

 

[-Fred-]

that could have killed Max or ended his career or both at those speeds…

Luciano Burti survived what ended up being a career-ending 190mph 111G registered crash head-on into a tire barrier at Blanchimont at Spa, with no Halo, in 2001, that was orders of magnitude more worrying to watch than what happened to Max last weekend... You're over dramatizing. Yeah, it was bad, but it wasn't life threatening.

 

[MaxAttack]

Play along at home!

 

[OJBrit]

It's hard to understand that Lewis Hamilton almost killed a young man and didn't even apologised for it.

He never almost killed anyone. It was a pretty routine crash for the safety cells and tyre walls to handle. Stop being overdramatic.

Play along at home!

View attachment 1068821

BINGO! What do I win?

 

[MaxAttack]

He never almost killed anyone. It was a pretty routine crash for the safety cells and tyre walls to handle. Stop being overdramatic.

BINGO! What do I win?

10 seconds added to your race time and 2 penalty points on your superlicense

 

[StPeterMartyr]

These wheel covers are so cool, they should be mandatory for all teams

 

[Tired Tyres]

This guy seems to know what he's talking about with situations like the one yesterday with Max and Lewis

That was a face saving throw away statement after Jackie Stewart had comprehensively dissected what Senna had done wrong in an interview.

 

[Dotini]

@OJBrit
I got you.
I just look at photos of Hamilton overtaking Leclerc and he holds super tightly to the inside.
It’s my opinion it’s his duty to hold this line. You can see how far away from the inside he was against Max…
Consider…

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.google.com

Red Bull has data on Hamilton's speed​

And that could be a key part of the legal case Red Bull is looking to bring against Hamilton and Mercedes. Brundle claims that Red Bull at least has that data.

"I have been told by Red Bull that there is data that they can use to prove that Hamilton went into Copse Corner significantly faster than at any other time and that he could not have made the corner without going wide and inevitably tapping Verstappen in the end."

"It is likely that this data will come out," Brundle continued, "And if Red Bull think they have 'new evidence', then they can appeal to the FIA because they think Hamilton is more at fault than first thought and the punishment for the Briton was handled too leniently."

Legal action will follow anyway, but with this information, appealing could also be a logical next step.

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.gpblog.com

In my humble opinion, if it can be scientifically and forensically proven that a driver entered the corner too fast to have possibly made the corner without contacting the other driver, then that changes everything, potentially. Again, IMHO, that could potentially constitute ramming. As a total irrelevance, in my amateur kart racing years, 1988-2015, the sanctioning body, the IKF, made it abundantly clear that ramming another karter off the course could constitute grounds for lifetime banishment. To be clear, I am not suggesting anything of the sort could or should occur under the present situation.

 

[MaxAttack]

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.gpblog.com

In my humble opinion, if it can be scientifically and forensically proven that a driver entered the corner too fast to have possibly made the corner without contacting the other driver, then that changes everything, potentially. Again, IMHO, that could potentially constitute ramming. As a total irrelevance, in my amateur kart racing years, 1988-2015, the sanctioning body, the IKF, made it abundantly clear that ramming another karter off the course could constitute grounds for lifetime banishment. To be clear, I am not suggesting anything of the sort could or should occur under the present situation.

Regardless of any precedent, it should be plainly obvious that seeking legal action here is a massive misstep from Marko & co. Every F1 driver steps into the car every weekend knowing the risks. Everyone understands what can happen when room and respect is not given. Max knows it, Lewis knows it, and you had better be damned sure every team leader and boss does too.

All RB seek to do here is capitalise on the frenzy of bitching they themselves set in motion during Sunday's broadcast. Even if they were to win some petty legal victory here it could - and should, imo - put a massive black mark on the reputation of the team. Will everyone else really want to race with a team that is going to sue you if you play a part in a DNF for one of their drivers?

I wonder if anyone asked Verstappen if he'd like charges pressed before Marko put pen to paper on this. For some reason, I have my doubts...

...pathetic and reprehensible. Red Bull has shown us all this week that they are a PR firm disguised as a Formula One outfit. Newey back to Williams for all our sakes!

 

[Samus]

That whole "argument" is easily countered by the fact HAM has a brake pedal he could have used later in the corner, or he could have lifted off.

It's also a weak argument generally. We've seen hundreds of overtakes over the years where one car won't make the corner without forcing the other driver to back out, go massively off line or even off the track. Max Verstappen, for example.

 

[StPeterMartyr]

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.gpblog.com

In my humble opinion, if it can be scientifically and forensically proven that a driver entered the corner too fast to have possibly made the corner without contacting the other driver, then that changes everything, potentially. Again, IMHO, that could potentially constitute ramming. As a total irrelevance, in my amateur kart racing years, 1988-2015, the sanctioning body, the IKF, made it abundantly clear that ramming another karter off the course could constitute grounds for lifetime banishment. To be clear, I am not suggesting anything of the sort could or should occur under the present situation.

Sir Hammie lifetime banishment... I like it!

 

[Grayfox]

Every person who had decent experience in racing sims know that Copse isn't for two cars at all! Diving there for a position is for Italians only (scuzi, ragazzi, this is true).

Since this forum is GTPlanet.
Pretty sure we've all played Gran Turismo in some form.

This means we should know that if you are going to be turning in to a corner from the inside, you will need to go slower over all to keep your line.
Hamilton was going same speed as Max, so Hamilton was going to understeer as a result.

 

[AshenGraey]

I've seen some rumors about this thing with Red Bull seeking legal actions against Mercedes and Lewis. If that's true they will officially become my most disliked team in F1 cause that's taking petty to a whole another level.

Also reading through all this nonsense had me wondering if this whole thing would have made the same amount of noise if it involved any other driver besides Lewis?

 

[McLaren]

10 seconds added to your race time and 2 penalty points on your superlicense

Was hoping for a stop-and-go instead.

 

[Grayfox]

I've seen some rumors about this thing with Red Bull seeking legal actions against Mercedes and Lewis. If that's true they will officially become my most disliked team in F1 cause that's taking petty to a whole another level.

Also reading through all this nonsense had me wondering if this whole thing would have made the same amount of noise if it involved any other driver besides Lewis?

Well due to cost cap, this could mean they're over budget with a complete rebuild of the car.
This was brought up when Russell tangled with Bottas

 

[Dotini]

Regardless of any precedent, it should be plainly obvious that seeking legal action here is a massive misstep from Marko & co. Every F1 driver steps into the car every weekend knowing the risks. Everyone understands what can happen when room and respect is not given. Max knows it, Lewis knows it, and you had better be damned sure every team leader and boss does too.

All RB seek to do here is capitalise on the frenzy of bitching they themselves set in motion during Sunday's broadcast. Even if they were to win some petty legal victory here it could - and should, imo - put a massive black mark on the reputation of the team. Will everyone else really want to race with a team that is going to sue you if you play a part in a DNF for one of their drivers?

I wonder if anyone asked Verstappen if he'd like charges pressed before Marko put pen to paper on this. For some reason, I have my doubts...

...pathetic and reprehensible. Red Bull has shown us all this week that they are a PR firm disguised as a Formula One outfit. Newey back to Williams for all our sakes!

Mostly agreed. The only situation in which legal action should be contemplated would be if Max were injured, crippled or unable to race again.

Any report on g's he sustained?

 

[StPeterMartyr]

Also reading through all this nonsense had me wondering if this whole thing would have made the same amount of noise if it involved any other driver besides Lewis?

YES: Max. And much more noise for sure. Though I don't like him at all, frankly.

 

[MaxAttack]

Mostly agreed. The only situation in which legal action should be contemplated would be if Max were injured, crippled or unable to race again.

Any report on g's he sustained?

The only number we have is the oft-quoted "51G impact" that came out during the broadcast. It's generally understood that this is the load experienced by the chassis at the point of impact - which entails that it is dissipated by the crash structure before it reached Max's body.

That is not to say this was not a big shunt - Verstappen was certainly winded and obviously full concussion protocol has to be undertaken. What's important to realise is that Max's hospital trip was both precautionary and mandatory - if the track doctor says you go for a checkup, there is no argument, and with this type of accident the doctor's book says he must send Max for check-up.

I believe Verstappen's condition was described as "winded and bruised but OK" and he was discharged the following day as per protocol.

All this aside, even in a situation where Max was injured, penalising Lewis is the responsibility of the FIA and they have their own guidelines on how they approach it. Not being satisfied with that is RBs problem and they can take it up with the FIA as a proviso to signing Concorde, which I imagine they would reconsider after looking at the books.

I would certainly imagine any driver that made a clearly deliberate ram, punt or contact that ended in a serious/career threatening injury to another would receive a race suspension or max points on the superlicense, but with this incident we are nowhere near such territory in many different regards.

 

[AshenGraey]

YES: Max. And much more noise for sure. Though I don't like him at all, frankly.

So you are saying that if it was another driver besides Lewis (whom I'm assuming is the one that you don't like at all?) that tangled up with Max in that crash, there would have been a lot more noise? ......interesting!

 

[StPeterMartyr]

So you are saying that if it was another driver besides Lewis (whom I'm assuming is the one that you don't like at all?) that tangled up with Max in that crash, there would have been a lot more noise? ......interesting!

No. I'm saying: Lewis on the outside, Max on the inside causing that mess.
And it's Max I don't like at all.
As for Sir Hammie: he's got a huge god complex, a massive NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder), I'll let you assume how much I love him.

 

[McLaren]

Well due to cost cap, this could mean they're over budget with a complete rebuild of the car.
This was brought up when Russell tangled with Bottas

Not sure I'm at all fond of the idea Red Bull can take legal action against Mercedes b/c of an accident that totaled one of their cars & therefore, Red Bull now has a budget issue.

 

[Grayfox]

The only number we have is the oft-quoted "51G impact" that came out during the broadcast. It's generally understood that this is the load experienced by the chassis at the point of impact - which entails that it is dissipated by the crash structure before it reached Max's body

They do have G-Sensors in the earbuds they wear.

 

[AshenGraey]

No. I'm saying: Lewis on the outside, Max on the inside causing that mess.
And it's Max I don't like at all.
As for Sir Hammie: he's got a huge god complex, a massive NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder), I'll let you assume how much I love him.

Ah ok! My apologies for making such an incorrect assumption. It's just that going through forum boards and social media, comments seem to suggest that Lewis is a very polarizing character that people either really love him and he is the best driver ever or they really hate him and he should never have been in F1....not sure why but I find the latter to be more common.

Anyway, in regards to the first part of your comment, if Lewis was on the outside I don't think there would have been a crash because I think Lewis would have most likely backed out or go wide to avoid getting crashed while complaining that he got pushed off the track.

 

[NickGuy]

Play along at home!

View attachment 1068821

im guilty of one of these (the videogame one) lmao

 

[StPeterMartyr]

Ah ok! My apologies for making such an incorrect assumption. It's just that going through forum boards and social media, comments seem to suggest that Lewis is a very polarizing character that people either really love him and he is the best driver ever or they really hate him and he should never have been in F1....not sure why but I find the latter to be more common.

Anyway, in regards to the first part of your comment, if Lewis was on the outside I don't think there would have been a crash because I think Lewis would have most likely backed out or go wide to avoid getting crashed while complaining that he got pushed off the track.

No problems, we all have our opinions, and it's hard to tell how much unbiased we are. Certainly I'm not 100% impartial.