Formula 1 Pirelli Gran Premio Del Made In Italy E Dell'emilia Romagna 2021Formula 1 

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PeterJB

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In most cases if you are a lap down when a safety car or red flag happens it's because of your speed. Obviously for Hamilton that wasn't the issue. He would have inevitably un-lapped everyone up to 2nd probably but still been a lap down at the end, whereas basically everyone else would have just continued to space out and stay a lap down.

Also, if you're gonna let everyone un-lap themselves, they why not actually let everyone un-lap themselves? The Haas' were two laps down but only permitted to un-lap once. That's always been issue to me with un-lapping rules because if you're lapped after un-lapping yourself then what's the point in doing that? You might be right on someone's tail for the rest of the race but not actually racing them.

As far as I'm concerned Hamilton should be 6th at best, because he raced for one lap less than Verstappen.
 
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5,352
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virtualnao
In most cases if you are a lap down when a safety car or red flag happens it's because of your speed. Obviously for Hamilton that wasn't the issue. He would have inevitably un-lapped everyone up to 2nd probably but still been a lap down at the end, whereas basically everyone else would have just continued to space out and stay a lap down.

Also, if you're gonna let everyone un-lap themselves, they why not actually let everyone un-lap themselves? The Haas' were two laps down but only permitted to un-lap once. That's always been issue to me with un-lapping rules because if you're lapped after un-lapping yourself then what's the point in doing that? You might be right on someone's tail for the rest of the race but not actually racing them.

As far as I'm concerned Hamilton should be 6th at best, because he raced for one lap less than Verstappen.
Valid points.
 
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6,734
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IMHO Russell was wrong and his actions towards Bottas simply stupid and arrogant, the clash with the Merc was clearly his fault.

Regardless, and according to Wolff, Russell shouldn't battle a Mercedes on track. Apparently they own him ... :rolleyes:
 
489
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Stockholm
IMHO Russell was wrong and his actions towards Bottas simply stupid and arrogant, the clash with the Merc was clearly his fault.

Regardless, and according to Wolff, Russell shouldn't battle a Mercedes on track. Apparently they own him ... :rolleyes:
Where did Wolff talk about this?
 

Touring Mars

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Why exactly are people upset over Russell and Bottas showing understandable emotions in the heat of the moment instead of acting like PR robot spokespeople? :confused:
It's got nothing to do with not showing emotions... drivers shouldn't be physically striking other drivers, period, but especially if the other driver is unable to defend themselves or could be injured...
 
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Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as gatekeeping... but like most/all rules in F1 it was a cumulation of different situations/incidents that led them to introduce it. They didn't just create the rule out of thin air.

Since the Safety Car was re-introduced in the early 1990s there would be situations where cars would not be in race order on the restart, and you would get lapped cars inbetween cars who may have otherwise been battling for the lead/podium. It meant that what may have otherwise been a close race for the lead could quickly be over, because lapped traffic cost the chasing cars on the lead lap precious seconds. Those cars would just get constantly blue flagged as well. The crowd at the track would also not really know who was actually battling for position.

So eventually in 2012 (or 2013?) they decided to allow lapped cars to un-lap themselves under the Safety Car. So cars were in their correct order on restarts, allowing actual racing without having to navigate a train of backmarkers. As a secondary effect it also provided those previously lapped cars a chance to gain more positions than they otherwise would have.

The situation that happened today, where the championship leader ended up in the fence and a lap down, and was then able gain the lap back and to fight back to P2, is extremely uncommon, and definitely not the reason/intention of that rule was introduced. But it is what it is, and Lewis/Mercedes took full advantage of it.

Thanks for the history and explanation! It makes sense why it's beneficial to let cars unlap under a safety car or yellow flag. Apparenlty, my understanding of how a yellow flag actually works was incorrect. From my casual viewing, I was under the impression that wherever in the race order the safety car emerged is how the drivers lined up for the release after the safety car leaves the track. (Unless someone chose to pit.) I didn't understand that lapped drivers were allowed to essentially overtake to get themselves back onto the lead lap.

However, I still feel that a red flag/race suspension is a different scenario. You don't have to allow drivers back onto the lead lap to avoid the situation you describe. If everyone is released from the pit by position ranking and allowed the one formation lap to get up to speed there are no lapped cars impeding the leaders and prompting a blue flag at the restart. The leaders are in front of the lapped drivers. In this particular case, Verstappen would have had an entire track in front of him before he would have to lap another backmarker. Maybe I'm missing something; like I said, I'm very new to this sport. But I do know that this incident gives me the same feeling that the infamous "tuck rule" playoff game in the NFL did ages ago. Which, looking back on it, marks the decline of my interest in NFL football. I kinda hope this isn't another one of those moments for me for a sport that I just started taking interest in.
 
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I might have missed it in the stream, but why was there not a standing start after the red?

Also, would Leclerc be made to give the place back if he had have passed Max when he had his moment at the restart?
 
1,254
Rossell2
Watched the Bottas/Russell incident properly now. I personally feel racing incident, in the same vein as Hamilton/Rosberg 2016, aggressive defending versus aggressive attacking, compounded by wet weather.

And I'm not defending Russell's helmet smack on Bottas, but Bottas did give him the one finger salute beforehand.
 

Jubby

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As far as I'm concerned Hamilton should be 6th at best, because he raced for one lap less than Verstappen.
Exactly. If another driver would have found their way into the top 5 (e.g. Tsundoa, just to be comical) after completing 1 less live lap I would have the same concern.
Why exactly are people upset over Russell and Bottas showing understandable emotions in the heat of the moment instead of acting like PR robot spokespeople? :confused:
Sterilization of a "sophisticated" sport. In my opinion, showing emotion is great. I would trust any driver to make the smart decision to not add additional injury (helmet tap, in this case) if Bottas was in any apparent danger. Yeah, there may be injuries not apparent, but Bottas' one-finger salute showed awareness and positive mental faculties.
 

Roo

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I might have missed it in the stream, but why was there not a standing start after the red?

Race director's discretion. In the damp conditions with most of the field on cold slicks, heading for some armco and tyre barriers that had already been involved in a hefty shunt, it was deemed safer to have a rolling start.

Also, would Leclerc be made to give the place back if he had have passed Max when he had his moment at the restart?

Leclerc would likely have gotten a penalty for passing under safety car conditions, as Max was neither fully off track nor driving an obviously broken car, and Leclerc could (and did) back off safely. Had Max spun Leclerc could've passed him as it wouldn't have been safe to come to a complete halt whilst Verstappen sorted himself out.

Leclerc's thoughts on the matter (might be behind a paywall).
 

TenEightyOne

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Yeah, confused that Gasly and Ricciardo gave it back

They might have thought it was fine for him to do that, he'll get a penalty after all. Reminds me of a BTCC race back in the day where Driver A was ordered to give a place back but Driver B didn't (wouldn't) pass him. It was the last lap so they passed the line that way and Driver A was duly penalised.
 

MikeV27

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I lol’d when crofty said Russel was going to check on Bottas to see if he’s okay or something along those lines. I did not get that impression from his body language at all. :lol:
 
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Missed the race live by virtue of being asleep so caught the C4 highlights, certainly a more incident packed race than I was expecting.

- For me the crash was just a racing incident mostly caused by the curved "straight". Russell was left enough space alongside Bottas but with the angle he pulled out and the track curving the other direction it was just not going to work. Although you certainly have to question why he was even attempting the pass in the first place. He had to know that it was never going to last even if it was pulled off.

- HAM was certainly lucky with the red flag and unlapping but that's just how it goes with that rule. It has benefited many drivers over the years, just as safety cars do by bunching fields up and allowing drivers to catch up any time they lost. In fact many times drivers have actually caused accidents and driven away yet the resulting SC because of debris or another car aides them massively.

Is it totally fair? No, but it's a rule that can benefit anyone and remember, Safety Car or red flag is NEVER fair. They will always benefit people with huge deficits and disadvantage those who built up those leads. Irrespective of unlapping. Minute ahead? Nope sorry, you're 0.5s ahead now. Just how it is.
 
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Failmaster2118
IMHO Russell was wrong and his actions towards Bottas simply stupid and arrogant, the clash with the Merc was clearly his fault.

Regardless, and according to Wolff, Russell shouldn't battle a Mercedes on track. Apparently they own him ... :rolleyes:
I feel quite different about this, as Bottas was going slower, attempted to fend off a clear overtake, and made a move that was going to have Russell on the grass or cause a collision. Both happened either way, and honestly Toto can screw off for all I care.
 
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and made a move that was going to have Russell on the grass or cause a collision.

He didn't, BOT left a more than sufficient space. The problem is RUS was coming in from the left curve whilst moving right so it was an awkward angle and then hit the wet, white line which caused the swapper into BOT. He'd have been fine if the whole pit straight was actually straight and/or if the track was bone dry. Hence racing incident IMO.


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TenEightyOne

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He didn't, BOT left a more than sufficient space.

I agree. It's true that there was enough space for both cars to drive along that piece of track. Not "comfortably", but it could be done. I did put the blame squarely onto Russell, but once I saw Raikkonnen's onboard I changed my mind a little. Russell hoped for too much but Bottas moved to block in a place that was only ever going to cause an accident. Russell shouldn't have been there and Bottas should have the nous to avoid it ending like it did. 50/50, I'd say, with both drivers in the wrong.
 

-Fred-

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I'd also give blame to both for the accident, but then again there's absolutely no reason for a Mercedes to be defending from a Williams on pure race pace... so, Yikes, Valterri.
 
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I'd also give blame to both for the accident, but then again there's absolutely no reason for a Mercedes to be defending from a Williams on pure race pace... so, Yikes, Valterri.

The crash did rather gloss over the fact that Bottas was having another shocker. Doing nothing pretty much all race to that point around 8th/9th.
 
6,112
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OutlawQuadrant
I know there was a lot going on in the race, but it seems like this penalty and Vettel's penalty should've been handed out earlier.
The stewards were busy fixing the coffee machine according to Vettel. :lol:
I'd also give blame to both for the accident, but then again there's absolutely no reason for a Mercedes to be defending from a Williams on pure race pace... so, Yikes, Valterri.
Also to note that Valterri, whose main advantage over Russell should be his experience, decided to do the one thing that turned a risky but viable attempt at an overtake into a complete catastrophe.
 
637
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I kinda hope this isn't another one of those moments for me for a sport that I just started taking interest in.

Another way to look at it is that half the field regained a lap after the red flag and Safety Car, but of those, only Hamilton had the pace to recover back to P2 from P9 after the restart.

I get it that people don't like the same person winning everything... but IMO if anyone else had done that (apart from the driver/team that has dominated for the past 7 years) I don't think that rule would really be brought up as an issue.

Just my take on it anyway.
 

NotThePrez

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So, finished watching the 2nd half of the race replay.

  • Gotta say, as long as there are no lingering injuries for the incident, I think the accident helped Bottas more than it hurt him. I feel like most people forgot that before the shunt, he was having an absolutely terrible race (after having a poor quali session) and was so down on speed that he was having to fend off multiple inferior cars, chief of which being Russell in the Williams. Obviously very glad that both Bottas and Russell are ok, because that crash was insanely scary, but that was a remarkably poor performance from the Mercedes driver.
  • Lewis Hamilton's luck is so insane, he must have some kind of superpower. Went off track into the barrier (though mastered the art of not getting stuck in the gravel), limped all the way around the track to get a new nose, and was put a lap down, only to have the Safety Car activated while in the pits, ensuring that he would be on the lead lap after the red flag period. While he was able to get to 2nd with some top-teir driving, the man has some bull:censored: levels of good luck a lot of the time, and I say that as something of a Hamilton fan.
  • While I would've liked to see Danny Ric higher up, I'm pretty happy overall with McLaren's pace, and Lando's podium. It's early, but I get the feeling that not only are they the team to beat within the midfield, they're also clear of the mid-runners by a decent margin, though not quite enough to challenge Mercedes and Red Bull. I think they're going to have a solid year ahead of them with some regular-ish appearances on the podium.
  • Much like Bahrain, this was a race to forget for Vettel. It may be a symptom of this remarkably tight midfield, but it seemed like he was just down on speed the entire race. Of course, he had his gearbox issue, which caused him to retire, but it's not great seeing him this far down the pecking order compared to his teammate. I know this is, for all intents and purposes, a new team in its first season, but I hope Vettel is able to get more speed in the next few races.
  • On the flipside, it really shows how poor the Haas squadron is when both of their cars are classified behind a (late) retierment. I know Haas was straight-up about their lack of speed in the pre-season, but it's still pretty painful to watch, especially with Mazepin showing his overall lack of racecraft.
Overall, a pretty fun, if not chaotic race. The on-track product wasn't phenomenal, but it was definitely a lot better than I was expecting.
 
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On the contrary I think Vettel was actually having an OK race. He went from pit lane start to 14th quite quickly and was in a solid position to move up further after his stop onto dry tires but of course the penalty put pay to that, followed by the technical issues. I think he could've got a point or two without those. Certainly better than Bahrain. He also did well to avoid a carelessly rejoining Alpine after the restart.

 

NotThePrez

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On the contrary I think Vettel was actually having an OK race. He went from pit lane start to 14th quite quickly and was in a solid position to move up further after his stop onto dry tires but of course the penalty put pay to that, followed by the technical issues. I think he could've got a point or two without those. Certainly better than Bahrain. He also did well to avoid a carelessly rejoining Alpine after the restart.


That's fair. I guess I'm just eagerly (probably impatiently) awaiting Vettel to get back up to speed so that he can be more of a challenge to Stroll, since it seems Vettel is far more comfortable in this car/team than he was at Ferrari. I do agree that his overall performance was much better than Bahrain.
 

-Fred-

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Also worthy of mention is the fact Mick crashed, drove two laps with no front wing (albeit under safety car), got a wing change and still finished almost a minute ahead of Mazepin. I know the Haas is dreadful, but his race pace is laughable.
 
3,875
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I always thought its a crap rule. The safety car isn't there to keep it close, it's there to slow the field down. If first place laps a backmarker and second doesn't, then second place shouldn't be gifted a free pass of the backmarker, nor should the backmarker be entitled to gain a lap.
 

1241Penguin

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Russell acted like a proper **** after the crash and then post-race as well. Shame. I was surprised to see so many drivers make mistakes this race, though Max held it for the whole thing and got himself a well deserved victory.