Formula 1 Rolex Australian Grand Prix 2023Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Coupled with the completely unnecessary safety car in Saudi Arabia, it's two races in a row where it is hard to look past bullšŸ¤¬ spice-up-the-action calls.
 
Just finished watching this...race. In my opinion none of the red flags were really necessary, except the red flag that was caused by the red flag restart. They should've considered just rolling back and calling the result. If Carlos needed a penalty, they could've given him a grid penalty for next race.

First lap incident for Ocon and Gasly
 
MagpieRacer
You seem to be oversimplifying Magnussens incident, tyre carcass on track, extremely sharp debris from the wheel strewn across the straight, cars spread out. If they put marshalls on a live track with a short lap across a straight, people complain about safety and say it should be red flagged. There's no argument over the validity of the red flags imo, the only argument that can be made for anything is the restart procedure itself being a grid start 2 laps from the end. But if they do a rolling start, people complain about that anyway.

And as I said with Monza, only part of the argument about that was the safety car delay, but drivers and teams said finishing under safety cars shouldn't happen.
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Do you have experience clearing up debris from a track?

As someone with 14 years experience and 10 Formula 1 races marshalled at, I can tell you categorically that it is an easy cleanup. A few large shards of metal which are visible from behind the barrier will take a minute at most to clear. It wasn't like an explosion of carbon fibre or the mass of gravel from Albon's crash, that was a case of using a Safety Car to create the gap and clean it up.


Alternatively, chuck the VSC in the bin and bring in a Pit Speed FCY like other FIA championships use. Drivers have to go at a set speed (not a set sector time) so they are free to keep eyes up and LOOK at what is happening in front of them. It feels a lot safer as a marshal clearing stuff off the track under FCY than a Safety Car.


Are you seriously trying to tell me that Magnussen's small wall tap deserves a Red Flag when something massive like Kubica's 2007 Montreal crash was perfectly fine to be cleared under a Safety Car? Races finish under the Safety Car, it happens and it sucks. Montreal 2014, Brazil 2012, Monaco 2010 etc. We got "treated" to the two bad extremes of this in 2021 with Baku and Abu Dhabi and now we were treated with this Australia 2023 šŸ’© show? It all comes back to how nobody treats the Safety Car as primarily for Safety, it's either thrown out for a classic 20-second push behind the barriers under double-yellows and then we spend 3 laps unlapping people once the pack had shuffled in pitstops.

Bring back pitlane closures and then Safety Cars would be enormously more useful than they currently are.
 
Jimlaad43
Do you have experience clearing up debris from a track?

As someone with 14 years experience and 10 Formula 1 races marshalled at, I can tell you categorically that it is an easy cleanup. A few large shards of metal which are visible from behind the barrier will take a minute at most to clear. It wasn't like an explosion of carbon fibre or the mass of gravel from Albon's crash, that was a case of using a Safety Car to create the gap and clean it up.


Alternatively, chuck the VSC in the bin and bring in a Pit Speed FCY like other FIA championships use. Drivers have to go at a set speed (not a set sector time) so they are free to keep eyes up and LOOK at what is happening in front of them. It feels a lot safer as a marshal clearing stuff off the track under FCY than a Safety Car.


Are you seriously trying to tell me that Magnussen's small wall tap deserves a Red Flag when something massive like Kubica's 2007 Montreal crash was perfectly fine to be cleared under a Safety Car? Races finish under the Safety Car, it happens and it sucks. Montreal 2014, Brazil 2012, Monaco 2010 etc. We got "treated" to the two bad extremes of this in 2021 with Baku and Abu Dhabi and now we were treated with this Australia 2023 šŸ’© show? It all comes back to how nobody treats the Safety Car as primarily for Safety, it's either thrown out for a classic 20-second push behind the barriers under double-yellows and then we spend 3 laps unlapping people once the pack had shuffled in pitstops.

Bring back pitlane closures and then Safety Cars would be enormously more useful than they currently are.
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You're comparing a 2007 incident to this? Madness.

Small wall tap that spread debris across the straight and left a carcass out in the open on a short lap track with field spread. All the while team's and fans adamantly want races to end under green conditions. A red flag could easily be justified on multiple levels.

the-race.com

Our verdict on Australian Grand Prix's shambolic finish - The Race

Did mayhem at the final Australian Grand Prix restart and bizarre finish show Formula 1 is wrong to try to ensure 'racing finishes'?
the-race.com the-race.com

People need to decide what they want, if they go safety car for 5 laps and end under yellow then you have everyone complaining anyway so what does it matter what they do. People are going to whine about it regardless. As The Race verdict alludes to above.
 
Besides the terrible endingā€¦..

Is Mercedes back? Or just a good track for them?

The RB was obviously faster but Lewis held off every attempt from Alonso to close that gap.

Wonder if they can maintain second and close that gap to RB with their upcoming upgrades.
 
pumaATTACK
Besides the terrible endingā€¦..

Is Mercedes back? Or just a good track for them?

The RB was obviously faster but Lewis held off every attempt from Alonso to close that gap.

Wonder if they can maintain second and close that gap to RB with their upcoming upgrades.
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Me too. It could be just a good track for them, but we'll have to see if they can keep it up.

I think there were a few times where teams did well in Australia, but then the tides shifted in the next race.

Even McLaren seemed to have a decent race here.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
Me too. It could be just a good track for them, but we'll have to see if they can keep it up.

I think there were a few times where teams did well in Australia, but then the tides shifted in the next race.

Even McLaren seemed to have a decent race here.
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Yeah I think it was just a good track for them, the car looks good at speed, it's the low speed stuff they seem to struggle with the most. I anticipate they'll be quick in S1 and S3 at Azerbaijan but struggle in S2 and be back behind the Aston's and Maybe the Ferraris.
 
The race was a farce at the end but I honestly don't mind a good old fashioned **** show once in a while, I'll take this over another procession. I like the standing starts after the red flag.
 
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A rolling start probably would have made the final two laps a lot betterā€¦

Would have allowed cars to race without the bottleneck at 1.
 
pumaATTACK
A rolling start probably would have made the final two laps a lot betterā€¦

Would have allowed cars to race without the bottleneck at 1.
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Would've, could've, should've.

This is how F1 does things nowadays, just like Baku in 2021. Always a standing start after a red flag, unless it's raining.
 
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pumaATTACK
A rolling start probably would have made the final two laps a lot betterā€¦

Would have allowed cars to race without the bottleneck at 1.
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These guys are supposedly the best drivers in the world, they should be able to do a standing start at any point in the race.

The route cause of all the chaos is their own greediness.
 
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Seeing how the racing is more often than not a procession, having the occasional cluster**** on track doesn't bother me at all. Crashes are a part of racing, F1 cars are about as safe as cars can possibly be (Remember Grosjean and his stylish F1 exit) so this was a sort of welcome change of pace.
 
Well that was hopeless.

Also is Sainz the only driver in history to get a penalty for an incident on a lap that didn't officially happen? Curious to see why Sargeant wasn't penalised for absolutely Strolling de Vries too...
 
MagpieRacer
You're comparing a 2007 incident to this? Madness.

Small wall tap that spread debris across the straight and left a carcass out in the open on a short lap track with field spread. All the while team's and fans adamantly want races to end under green conditions. A red flag could easily be justified on multiple levels.

the-race.com

Our verdict on Australian Grand Prix's shambolic finish - The Race

Did mayhem at the final Australian Grand Prix restart and bizarre finish show Formula 1 is wrong to try to ensure 'racing finishes'?
the-race.com the-race.com

People need to decide what they want, if they go safety car for 5 laps and end under yellow then you have everyone complaining anyway so what does it matter what they do. People are going to whine about it regardless. As The Race verdict alludes to above.
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Are you a recent DTS convert or something? Have you lost all notion of fair racing? You seem to be in a loop of trying to justify Red Flags as a part of entertainment - which they aren't to begin with. As many people are trying to tell you, they are only meant to be used as an extreme measure to stop the race if something serious has occurred. Nothing today was warranted as extreme or serious. Same thing with Jeddah and Bahrain when they brought out red flags. You also quoted me way back when I complained about the Bahrain red flag - I, at the time stated: 'So that's the new thing this year? Red flags for the smallest of things'' that statement turned out to be correct so far.

Sounds as though all you care about is your own version of entertainment and no notion of why racing is as it should be, and has always been. For whatever reason, you have no idea why racing fans don't like this era of entertainment over rules? Geez take a step back and think about it. Even the driver themselves are complaining about it. Racing in this format is not entertaining. What Jimlaad has been saying is absolutely true.
 
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When Magnussen parked up after losing his tyre, I said "race over" because I thought there'd be safety car finish. Then the red flag was thrown. I said "they've done this for entertainment" and that if there's another crash, the race will end up being a "farce". Guess what happened? It was a total mess and it made F1 look like a total joke. The red flag should not be used for the purpose of entertainment, it should be used for the purpose of safety. The Magnussen incident could've been cleared under safety car - a red flag was NOT needed. I'm absolutely disgusted. The FIA were clowns yesterday and created all these issues for no reason.
 
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Bosso
Are you a recent DTS convert or something? Have you lost all notion of fair racing? You seem to be in a loop of trying to justify Red Flags as a part of entertainment - which they aren't to begin with. As many people are trying to tell you, they are only meant to be used as an extreme measure to stop the race if something serious has occurred. Nothing today was warranted as extreme or serious. Same thing with Jeddah and Bahrain when they brought out red flags. You also quoted me way back when I complained about the Bahrain red flag - I, at the time stated: 'So that's the new thing this year? Red flags for the smallest of things'' that statement turned out to be correct so far.

Sounds as though all you care about is your own version of entertainment and no notion of why racing is as it should be, and has always been. For whatever reason, you have no idea why racing fans don't like this era of entertainment over rules? Geez take a step back and think about it. Even the driver themselves are complaining about it. Racing in this format is not entertaining. What Jimlaad has been saying is absolutely true.
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As I've said repeatedly, the red flag could be justified from a debris perspective. If it benefits the entertainment aspect then so be it. Red flags themselves aren't inherently entertaining, quite far from it, however, if the choice is watching 5 laps of a safety car to the finish or stopping the race to allow for a racing finish, if justified, which it could be in this scenario thanks to the debris, it should be a very easy choice unless you have no interest in being entertained watching this sports entertainment. You seem to be attempting to speak for all fans when you're talking about the same fans who criticised a safety car finish in Italy and have done so on every other occasion that has happened. The drivers are criticising the driving standards, but again, they're also the same drivers criticising finishing under safety cars, because drivers and teams have also stated their desire for races to finish under green racing conditions.

As I've said repeatedly, people need to decide what they want to happen, because ultimately all they're doing is following feedback from fans, team's and drivers to improve the spectacle. Standing starts from red flags, green flag finishes, all introduced in response to criticism from fans and teams.

And so what if I was a recent DTS convert? What would that change in watching the sport? As it happens I've been watching since 1996, and watched every scenario since then which has resulted in the rules being what they are today.

Can't wait for Baku to finish under the safety car and watch everyone kick off because of it.
 
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Demon Drone
I will never forgive Nascar for poisoning the well with GWC's. Now we see every half brained lemming complain in every series when a race might finish under SC. This DTS generation is ruining racing.
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You think that the notion of being discontented with safety car finishes is because of a Netflix series? Of course not, it's been a point of discussion for years. To suggest that you have to be a "half brained lemming" to want to see a race finish under racing conditions is ignorant and borderline offensive. Gatekeeping fans who just blame the "DTS generation" for everything they don't agree with in modern F1 are actually the real poison, here and on the wider social media platform.

The team's and drivers want to finish under green flag racing, not safety cars, nevermind the fans. Here is an article after the Italian GP last year where Christian Horner and Mattia Binotto both said that they would rather it finish under racing conditions and that it has been talked about for years.

www.google.com

Italian GP: Why did race end behind Safety Car? The explanation, rival views and Abu Dhabi comparisons

The Safety Car ending to the Italian Grand Prix denied a
www.google.com www.google.com

It ends with the suggestion that incidents in the last 5 laps should trigger a red flag and a standing start to avoid anticlimactic finishes.

And further to the point around justifying a red flag for KMags incident, a fan was hit by a shard of the wheel and suffered a nasty looking cut. Now chuck that shard at a drivers face at 190mph, or even 100mph under yellows and see what happens. This wasn't just shards of carbon, it was magnesium alloy as well.
 
A restarted race under a red flag with a handful of laps to go, especially with drivers changing tyres, makes the rest of the race a total waste of time. The 75% distance full points rule is there for a reason. Again, if only the last five laps matter, then just have a five lap race.

Both the red flag and safety car are not just being used for reasons of safety, they are being used as a competition equaliser and it is completely wrong.
 
FB_IMG_1680537475657.jpg
 
MagpieRacer
As I've said repeatedly, the red flag could be justified from a debris perspective.
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Tbf there was a lot of gravel on track, enough to get a couple of dozen people and a street sweeper to clean it up. It probably would have taken longer if they were wasting laps behind an sc. If I was a driver I would certainly want them to do a thorough job, stones getting thrown into the cockpit from the car ahead would not be nice.
 
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MagpieRacer
As I've said repeatedly, the red flag could be justified from a debris perspective. If it benefits the entertainment aspect then so be it. Red flags themselves aren't inherently entertaining, quite far from it, however, if the choice is watching 5 laps of a safety car to the finish or stopping the race to allow for a racing finish, if justified, which it could be in this scenario thanks to the debris, it should be a very easy choice unless you have no interest in being entertained watching this sports entertainment. You seem to be attempting to speak for all fans when you're talking about the same fans who criticised a safety car finish in Italy and have done so on every other occasion that has happened. The drivers are criticising the driving standards, but again, they're also the same drivers criticising finishing under safety cars, because drivers and teams have also stated their desire for races to finish under green racing conditions.

As I've said repeatedly, people need to decide what they want to happen, because ultimately all they're doing is following feedback from fans, team's and drivers to improve the spectacle. Standing starts from red flags, green flag finishes, all introduced in response to criticism from fans and teams.

And so what if I was a recent DTS convert? What would that change in watching the sport? As it happens I've been watching since 1996, and watched every scenario since then which has resulted in the rules being what they are today.

Can't wait for Baku to finish under the safety car and watch everyone kick off because of it.
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Excellent. Every time a tiny piece of debris falls on the track, let's chuck a red flag out. I'm fact, why don't we just not bother with racing at all and instead run the championship with names out of a hat? Apparently that's "entertainment" in your eyes.

This is Formula 1. It is a sport where results are based on good performances over a race. Yes, it may suck when someone wins again and again, but that's what the SPORT is about. Random results coming naturally through wet weather or well-timed Safety Cars are fine, but a Red for no reason is not the solution. That Baku Verstappen crash would not have been a Red Flag if it was Lap 15 for example, Race Control would have just said "Safety Car and pack through pitlane".

I'm not going to waste any more of my time replying to your wrong contradictions, but can I ask: are you really, truly satisfied that it took an hour to see the chequered flag under the Safety Car 60 minutes after Magnussen hit the wall 5 laps earlier? I see you still haven't even brought up the Red Flag tyre change rule discussion yet which is a much more interesting discussion as there are actual merits to each viewpoint there.
 

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