Forza 4 vs. GT5 (car classes).

[cuco33]

As I said before, real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses.

I believe it is safe to say that is why GT5 doesn't include them. This is a logical conclusion when you consider that Kaz's experience in the 24HR 'Ring event.

I disagree entirely with your stance on tires. Racing organizations usually specify the max tire compound you are allowed. These teams dont go with less grip and wear tires, they choose the best. Even the SCCA will classify street legal DOT race tires in amateur events that most run. You don't enter these races on stock tire compounds. The team engineers usually order the highest allowable tire compound. So in Forza start by putting race slicks and go from there if you want to hit a class or pi rating, unless a race series deems specific tire compounds. The other advantage in forza is wheel weights, rim diameter and width that gt does not touch either.
Better tires = better grip = better performance = faster lap times.. why would you not see tires being part of a numerical performance indicator when upgrading a car?

 

[Com Fox]

Forza is winning on both forums .

 

[TwistyDrift]

I like both, both have a downside to it.

I wish there was "I like both" in the poll.

 

[maxpontiac]

Scaff -

I may have not communicated my point clearly enough but I understand that racing bodies control the tires for the cars. Thanks for the reading material though. I bookmark all things like this because the nerd in me takes over.

These racing leagues define the car class and (as an example) the SP8T class that Kaz was involved in was defined by certain perimeters (in which I am sure you can provide) in which I am 100% positive that the governing heads didn't say "well, the GTR comes with better stock tires then this car, so we better do this".

Based on the literature you provided the tires are set as a common standard for ALL the cars, correct? I only ask this because I promise you that any governing agency out there doesn't have a stipulation stating that if tire "A" is used, modification "B" cannot.

The point I was making is that in Forza, the tires you put on cars can take your car out of class on it's own. Like Amar, I like the performance index that Forza has, just not the class system that can be dictated by the tires.

Excorcet -

I am not completely sure what the rules are for the tires in 24HR 'Ring event, but I recall Kaz indicating that they went to a softer compound. Perhaps some of the detectives here can find that (I tried) or even remember when and where it was said.

cuco33 -

I never said I didn't want the tires included in some type of performance calculator. I just said that in Forza cars can be defined by the tire you use. Hence the reason I do not like Forza's car class system.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff -

I may have not communicated my point clearly enough but I understand that racing bodies control the tires for the cars. Thanks for the reading material though. I bookmark all things like this because the nerd in me takes over.

No problem at all.

These racing leagues define the car class and (as an example) the SP8T class that Kaz was involved in was defined by certain perimeters (in which I am sure you can provide) in which I am 100% positive that the governing heads didn't say "well, the GTR comes with better stock tires then this car, so we better do this".

I'm aware of this, however you seem to be just applying it to tyres, when in reality it would apply to a huge amount of the car's build as well. Your happy with things like increase displacement doing this in Forza, yet in the exact same SP8T class if you increased the engine capacity over the reg limits it would have the exact same effect as your saying shouldn't apply with tyres (and in the SP8T class it would also apply to aero and body mods, power output and a number of other areas).

Why should changing tyres not affect a PP/PI system while changing engine displacement should? You seem to be saying that real regs wouldn't work that way, yet they do.

The point I was making is that in Forza, the tires you put on cars can take your car out of class on it's own. Like Amar, I like the performance index that Forza has, just not the class system that can be dictated by the tires.

In Forza if you fit a tyre that takes you outside a class you can't race in it, in the real world if you fit a tyre that had a width/profile/compound that takes you outside the limits for that class you can't race in it.

Are the two an exact mirror, of course not (as I've already covered - real world regs are far more complex than that), however do real world regs include tyres as part of the regulations that determine if a car can race in that class. 100% they do, as such and PP/PI system should as well.

 

[cuco33]

Tires, like in real life, are a performance upgrade. Any system that classifies the performance of a car should factor in tire compounds into the equation. A Ferrari won't handle as it should if on inexpensive run of the mill tires, and will perform better if the tires are an upgrade from stock. I wished GT factored in tire compounds into the pp numbers. Let people race on RS in a 500pp room as the won't take advantage of the power adders or weight savings.

 

[Com Fox]

I like both, both have a downside to it.

I wish there was "I like both" in the poll.

All = I like both.

 

[TwistyDrift]

All = I like both.

Oh lol I feel stupid. I didn't see "All" I didn't scroll down I only saw two option.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I too vote for all, both GT5 and FM4 have good classes with PP&PI. Not sure what the difference is to be honest.. >_>

 

[sporkface]

I like Forza's system better. When you have 2 C-425 cars, they are usually very evenly matched. Or at least matched better than they would be in GT5.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I like Forza's system better. When you have 2 C-425 cars, they are usually very evenly matched. Or at least matched better than they would be in GT5.

This, much like GT5, comes down to the method of tuning, especially if one car needed a lot more parts thrown on it to hit C425. I've done nothing but power upgrades for an old muscle car to hit that class limit, then built a second car with the focus on tires and handling, and while both were ranked C425, they definitely weren't evenly matched at Infineon . Both games benefit from a degree of moderation with regards to the upgrades.

Max, I get what you're saying, but the handy bonus with including tires in the performance point calculations is that it allows players to easily get a (rough) idea of how their car competes with others on different compounds. Looking through my GT5 garage, it's impossible to tell easily how my cars compare to one another, since the PP on a CM-equipped car might be within a few of a SS-equipped track nutter. I do see the advantages of both systems; I just prefer one

 

[maxpontiac]

Scaff

I'm aware of this, however you seem to be just applying it to tyres, when in reality it would apply to a huge amount of the car's build as well. Your happy with things like increase displacement doing this in Forza, yet in the exact same SP8T class if you increased the engine capacity over the reg limits it would have the exact same effect as your saying shouldn't apply with tyres (and in the SP8T class it would also apply to aero and body mods, power output and a number of other areas).

Yes. I am applying it to only the tires. I love how in Forza my Performance Index moves when I install a lightweight flywheel (for example).

Why should changing tyres not affect a PP/PI system while changing engine displacement should? You seem to be saying that real regs wouldn't work that way, yet they do.

You will have to show me where and how you came to this conclusion.

I browsed through this site...

http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations/gt3ecreg.html

... and I failed to locate anything that says tires are part of the racing class.

The tires are handled with a broad spectrum approach, meaning that every car has to use the same. The information you posted to me earlier confirms that very thing. The cars are defined with standards such as aero, etc., but will be still be different.

Yet the tires are the SAME.

In Forza if you fit a tyre that takes you outside a class you can't race in it, in the real world if you fit a tyre that had a width/profile/compound that takes you outside the limits for that class you can't race in it.

In Forza yes, in the real world? Not likely. Take a look at the competitors here...

http://gt1world.com/competitors

...and you will notice different horsepower and weight ratings for the cars, etc. By all means, show me where tires compounds are different for these competitors.

Are the two an exact mirror, of course not (as I've already covered - real world regs are far more complex than that), however do real world regs include tyres as part of the regulations that determine if a car can race in that class. 100% they do, as such and PP/PI system should as well.

Please provide evidence of such. Everything I have found over the past 24hrs tells me the complete opposite.

Forza allows you to have two C Class cars with different compounds. THAT is not like what all the literature we have posted indicates and WHY I have a dislike towards Forza's system.

Tires, like in real life, are a performance upgrade. Any system that classifies the performance of a car should factor in tire compounds into the equation. A Ferrari won't handle as it should if on inexpensive run of the mill tires, and will perform better if the tires are an upgrade from stock. I wished GT factored in tire compounds into the pp numbers. Let people race on RS in a 500pp room as the won't take advantage of the power adders or weight savings.

I agree 100%, but that really isn't what I am disputing. My stance isn't against Forza's system of counting everything done to a car. It's the way it should be.

Max, I get what you're saying, but the handy bonus with including tires in the performance point calculations is that it allows players to easily get a (rough) idea of how their car competes with others on different compounds. Looking through my GT5 garage, it's impossible to tell easily how my cars compare to one another, since the PP on a CM-equipped car might be within a few of a SS-equipped track nutter. I do see the advantages of both systems; I just prefer one

Oh, believe me, I wouldn't mind tires being included in the Performance Points on GT5. It makes sense because of the way the system is designed.

In my book, neither GT5 or FM4 gets the car identification right and there are things I like about both. The tire issue and the letter grade in Forza just happens to bother me the most.

 

[Spagetti69]

Crikey, if tires were not included in PP calculations lobby's would be full of super grippy slot cars. The very first upgrade added would be racing tires at max width at no cost to PI.

Open Lobby's would be Slot car racing.
Leader board attacks would be Slot car set ups.

I love the challenge of balancing out grip,power and weight when creating tunes.

Take tires out if the equation and you lose a lot of the challenge(s).

 

[APXCaramel]

One thing that hasn't been brought up.

You can't change tire compounds during the race. So running race tires will improve your performance over the same car on sport tires.

But I vote for FM4, simply because upgrades up the PI. Not just power/weight like GT5's. There's more to making a car fast than just P/W. And Forza does it well. Very Well.

 

[Com Fox]

Max[B/]
Your just applying the real world championships to the FIA GT1 only even though it is now dead (Replaced with FIA GT Series).
Others like F1, Super GT and
others have the tyre restrictions.

Also on the nurburgring 24h subject, the classes are divided by litres of the engine (cc). Not power,wight or tyres.

 

[Scaff]

Yes. I am applying it to only the tires. I love how in Forza my Performance Index moves when I install a lightweight flywheel (for example).

So why single out one performance factor to not be included?

You will have to show me where and how you came to this conclusion.

I browsed through this site...

http://www.fia.com/sport/regulations/gt3ecreg.html

... and I failed to locate anything that says tires are part of the racing class.

I'm sorry to say that your browsing didn't serve you well.......

12.6 Specification of tyres :

12.6.1 An intermediate tyre is one which has been designed for use on a wet or damp track.
All intermediate tyres must, when new, have a contact area which does not exceed 280cm² when fitted to the front of the car and 440cm² when fitted to the rear. Contact areas will be measured over any square section of the tyre which is normal to and symmetrical about the tyre centre line and which measures 200mm x 200mm when fitted to the front of the car and 250mm x 250mm when fitted to the rear. For the purposes of establishing conformity, void areas which are less than 2.5mm in depth will be deemed to be contact areas.

12.6.2 A wet-weather tyre is one which has been designed for use on a wet track.

All wet-weather tyres must, when new, have a contact area which does not exceed 240cm² when fitted to the front of the car and 375cm² when fitted to the rear. Contact areas will be measured over any square section of the tyre which is normal to and symmetrical about the tyre centre line and which measures 200mm x 200mm when fitted to the front of the car and 250mm x 250mm when fitted to the rear. For the purposes of establishing conformity, void areas which are less than 5.0mm in depth will be deemed to be contact areas

Source - http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/2012 TECHNICAL REGULATIONS 09-03-2012.pdf

I would have to say that a rather specific description of the exact nature of the tyre size required for this class (F1) of car.

As far as compound goes...

All tyres must be used as supplied by the manufacturer, any modification or treatment such as cutting, grooving, the application of solvents or softeners is prohibited. This applies to dry, intermediate and wet-weather tyres.

Which quite clearly describes the tyres required to remain in this class, step outside it and you will get penalized (as my last post clearly pointed out and sourced).

So what about another race series, well lets look at the BTCC regulations for a bit of Tin Top action....

Tyres
The only Dunlop tyres permitted in 2011 are those specified below:
Standard dry tyre is designated 235/610R17 E36D FF004
Thruxton dry tyre is designated 235/610R17 E53D FF026
Wet tyre is designated 235/610R17 CR9000 A46D 497

NGTC:
Standard dry tyre is designated TBC by Championship Bulletin
Thruxton dry tyre is designated TBC by Championship Bulletin
Wet tyre is designated TBC by Championship Bulletin

Source - http://www.btcc.net/pdf/regulations_2011.pdf

So that would be once again specifying the size and compound permitted.

The tires are handled with a broad spectrum approach, meaning that every car has to use the same. The information you posted to me earlier confirms that very thing. The cars are defined with standards such as aero, etc., but will be still be different.

Yet the tires are the SAME.

Exactly, tyres have to remain within a certain limit for a car to remain in its class, changing tyres outside of a set range can push a car outside its class (which can happen in FM but not in GT).

Please remember that you said....

As I said before, real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses.

I believe it is safe to say that is why GT5 doesn't include them. This is a logical conclusion when you consider that Kaz's experience in the 24HR 'Ring event.

Which clearly is not the case.

In Forza yes, in the real world? Not likely. Take a look at the competitors here...

http://gt1world.com/competitors

...and you will notice different horsepower and weight ratings for the cars, etc. By all means, show me where tires compounds are different for these competitors.



Please provide evidence of such. Everything I have found over the past 24hrs tells me the complete opposite.

That's not the argument you put forward (which was that tyres in no way should change a cars class and are not covered by regulation) and I have already clearly and repeatedly stated that neither system is an exact match to real world racing regulations. However in terms of what the aim of it is FM comes closest.

The purpose of racing regulations is to allow a range of different cars to race competitively against each other but equalizing the performance of the car as much as possible. That clearly includes tyres in the real world.

Forza allows you to have two C Class cars with different compounds. THAT is not like what all the literature we have posted indicates and WHY I have a dislike towards Forza's system.

Sorry but that makes no sense at all as GT5 allows you to have nine 500PP cars with different compounds, so based on your own argument here GT5 system should give you even more reason to dislike it.

At the very least the Forza system allows you to see what the difference in performance is between those two cars (as they may still be in the same class but they will have differing PI values), the nine GT5 cars will give you zero variance in PP values!

I agree 100%, but that really isn't what I am disputing. My stance isn't against Forza's system of counting everything done to a car. It's the way it should be.

Then why not tyres?

Oh, believe me, I wouldn't mind tires being included in the Performance Points on GT5. It makes sense because of the way the system is designed.

Why would it make sense in GT5 but not in Forza?

In my book, neither GT5 or FM4 gets the car identification right and there are things I like about both. The tire issue and the letter grade in Forza just happens to bother me the most.

I quite agree that neither gets it right and the letter grades for me at the very least give you bands to work within (which does have rough real world parallels), but I don't agree in terms of tyres and don't even see any consistent logic in the argument you've presented for not including them in calculations.



Basically the way I look at it is as follows, in a race series (real world) you may be permitted to run two different compounds of tyre (not uncommon in for example endurance racing), the stickiest of these would give you the fastest lap time (such as the compound that Team GT Academy switched to) and these would give you the high-point for your PP/PI score. However if you were to switch to a less sticky tyre which would give you a slight reduction in lap time but allow you to run the tyre longer you should see a reduction in PP/PI (as you are now running slower laps). Nothing that need take you outside of the same class and the change in PP/PI would allow you to gauge what kind of compromise you are making in terms of performance to gain the extra laps.

 

[maxpontiac]

Scaff

So why single out one performance factor to not be included?

I think you know the answer for that question, but I will answer that anyways. Tires play a far more siginificant role. IE - Better braking, better grip and better acceleration.

I'm sorry to say that your browsing didn't serve you well.......

Yes, I read that, but it still does nothing to stand against my point. Forza allows a specific class with a letter grade to compete with different tires. Gran Turismo does not since it has no classes defined. Only numbers.

As far as compound goes...Which quite clearly describes the tyres required to remain in this class, step outside it and you will get penalized (as my last post clearly pointed out and sourced).

So what about another race series, well lets look at the BTCC regulations for a bit of Tin Top action....So that would be once again specifying the size and compound permitted.

I appreciate the links. Anyways, that is exactly my point. Based on these Regulations outlined by those jurisdictions, my Class C Pontiac GTO would be breaking the laws on tires. I can't make it light enough to stay in "C", nor can I put the best set of tires on it when other cars in that class can do BOTH.

Exactly, tyres have to remain within a certain limit for a car to remain in its class, changing tyres outside of a set range can push a car outside its class (which can happen in FM but not in GT).

Please remember that you said....Which clearly is not the case.

As I already pointed out, the cars are defined to be competitive which means different weights and ponies but the tires are identical.

That's not the argument you put forward (which was that tyres in no way should change a cars class and are not covered by regulation) and I have already clearly and repeatedly stated that neither system is an exact match to real world racing regulations. However in terms of what the aim of it is FM comes closest.

The argument I put forward was that tires shouldn't change a class of cars. Just for fun, please tell me how many compounds of tires you can choose in Forza 4.

I personally love the 9 tire compounds in GT5, don't you? Well, more than that if you count the rain, snow and dirt tires.

Sorry but that makes no sense at all as GT5 allows you to have nine 500PP cars with different compounds, so based on your own argument here GT5 system should give you even more reason to dislike it.

Actually, it makes complete sense. I can build a 2004 Pontiac GTO in GT5 to my hearts content, and you know what? There isn't some fictional letter grade hanging above my car.

Lets just say there is a 500PP seasonal on GT5 that has a restriction of Sports Hard for the tires. See where I am going here?

At the very least the Forza system allows you to see what the difference in performance is between those two cars (as they may still be in the same class but they will have differing PI values), the nine GT5 cars will give you zero variance in PP values!

All the while giving a letter grade. Have I told you how much I don't like that?

Why would it make sense in GT5 but not in Forza?

Tires work torwards the Performance Index. I like that. I don't like how it works against the letter grade. You do!

I quite agree that neither gets it right

Indeed. It's why there is a little thing called "choice" and "likes". I choose and like to play GT5 alot more than I do Forza for various reasons, some including the aforementioned letter grade. LOL

 

[APXCaramel]

I appreciate the links. Anyways, that is exactly my point. Based on these Regulations outlined by those jurisdictions, my Class C Pontiac GTO would be breaking the laws on tires. I can't make it light enough to stay in "C", nor can I put the best set of tires on it when other cars in that class can do BOTH.

Honestly... Do you really think a stripped out Prius with race tires could keep up with a GTO on sport tires? Answer... No. Never. Not until you boost the power, trans and suspension. Then it'll be a C class car with other cars. That's the whole purpose of the PI/class system. It's to place cars against each other that perform similar, and since you cannot change tire compounds mid race, don't you think it should be included in the PI system?

Actually, it makes complete sense. I can build a 2004 Pontiac GTO in GT5 to my hearts content, and you know what? There isn't some fictional letter grade hanging above my car.

Lets just say there is a 500PP seasonal on GT5 that has a restriction of Sports Hard for the tires. See where I am going here?

No... You can't build your car past 500pp. Just because they haven't put a letter system in place, doesn't mean you're able to build the car with unlimited horse power. You're going to use sports hard because it provides the best grip. But in Forza, you may want to downgrade to a street tire if you think you can handle the grip, so you may add horsepower or take out some weight.

All the while giving a letter grade. Have I told you how much I don't like that?

Why not? Easier to restrict... AKA, have closer spec'd cars (cars that don't have a 10 second advantage).

Tires work torwards the Performance Index. I like that. I don't like how it works against the letter grade. You do!

Do you understand the PI system?

F 100-200
E 201-275
D 276-350
C 351-425
B 426-500
A 501-600
S 601-700
R3 701-800
R2 801-875
R1 876-998

If I make the car go faster, that adds points, which go towards the letter. Every car has the exact same number count.

 

[TwistyDrift]

Honestly... Do you really think a stripped out Prius with race tires could keep up with a GTO on sport tires? Answer... No. Never. Not until you boost the power, trans and suspension. Then it'll be a C class car with other cars. That's the whole purpose of the PI/class system. It's to place cars against each other that perform similar, and since you cannot change tire compounds mid race, don't you think it should be included in the PI system?



No... You can't build your car past 500pp. Just because they haven't put a letter system in place, doesn't mean you're able to build the car with unlimited horse power. You're going to use sports hard because it provides the best grip. But in Forza, you may want to downgrade to a street tire if you think you can handle the grip, so you may add horsepower or take out some weight.





Why not? Easier to restrict... AKA, have closer spec'd cars (cars that don't have a 10 second advantage).




Do you understand the PI system?

F 100-200
E 201-275
D 276-350
C 351-425
B 426-500
A 501-600
S 601-700
R3 701-800
R2 801-875
R1 876-998

If I make the car go faster, that adds points, which go towards the letter. Every car has the exact same number count.

I like Forza its straight forward with just classes but I like the PP system as well because when your trying to drift with people they sometimes restrict the PP and HP and it will be a good fair tandem because everything is the same but with classes its hard to determine which car is faster, the same or slower.

 

[machschnel]

I personally love the 9 tire compounds in GT5, don't you? Well, more than that if you count the rain, snow and dirt tires.

You like fake tire compounds? Over real ones?

 

[thelvynau]

Honestly... Do you really think a stripped out Prius with race tires could keep up with a GTO on sport tires? Answer... No. Never. Not until you boost the power, trans and suspension. Then it'll be a C class car with other cars. That's the whole purpose of the PI/class system. It's to place cars against each other that perform similar, and since you cannot change tire compounds mid race, don't you think it should be included in the PI system?

No... You can't build your car past 500pp. Just because they haven't put a letter system in place, doesn't mean you're able to build the car with unlimited horse power. You're going to use sports hard because it provides the best grip. But in Forza, you may want to downgrade to a street tire if you think you can handle the grip, so you may add horsepower or take out some weight.

Why not? Easier to restrict... AKA, have closer spec'd cars (cars that don't have a 10 second advantage).

Do you understand the PI system?

F 100-200
E 201-275
D 276-350
C 351-425
B 426-500
A 501-600
S 601-700
R3 701-800
R2 801-875
R1 876-998

If I make the car go faster, that adds points, which go towards the letter. Every car has the exact same number count.

You missed the X class.

Not sure if it starts at 999 or just goes to 1000 and stops I cant remember.

 

[sailworksman]

Oh and for me Forza for one simple reason - Tyres

👍 👍

 

[APXCaramel]

I like Forza its straight forward with just classes but I like the PP system as well because when your trying to drift with people they sometimes restrict the PP and HP and it will be a good fair tandem because everything is the same but with classes its hard to determine which car is faster, the same or slower.

Well, in Forza (being on a tandem drift team), S class is the standard limit. Cars that would fit the bill would be 500-650hp 2500-3200lb cars on sport tires. As in GT5 some cars benefit from the upgrades, so we something like a bro code of cars that we don't use in competitions (or public lobbies for most people) so MOST cars are on an even playing field.

And yes, I did miss X class. It's just 999. Doesn't go any higher.

 

[Scaff]

I think you know the answer for that question, but I will answer that anyways. Tires play a far more siginificant role. IE - Better braking, better grip and better acceleration.

I simply do see that as a valid reason to remove them from a system that allows you to compare cars based on performance, in fact quite the opposite, a system that compares cars based on performance should by its very nature include the single biggest impact on performance. Otherwise its not actually doing what it claims.

Yes, I read that, but it still does nothing to stand against my point. Forza allows a specific class with a letter grade to compete with different tires. Gran Turismo does not since it has no classes defined. Only numbers.


I appreciate the links. Anyways, that is exactly my point. Based on these Regulations outlined by those jurisdictions, my Class C Pontiac GTO would be breaking the laws on tires. I can't make it light enough to stay in "C", nor can I put the best set of tires on it when other cars in that class can do BOTH.


As I already pointed out, the cars are defined to be competitive which means different weights and ponies but the tires are identical.

On the last point here first, no the tyres are not always identical, the very reason why I posted the 2011 BTCC regs is that they run two differing builds of car side by side (NGTC and S2000), yet the compete against each other, the cars vary in a number of ways one of which is tyres.

You have also pointed out yourself (in the example of the ADAC 24hrs) that cars can run differing compounds, so yes tyres car differ, the mistake you making is trying to 100% mirror this with real world regs, which I have repeatedly said have no direct parallel in either title.

You however mention that you would not be able to turn your Class C GTO into a BTCC car in FM4, well no you wouldn't (as a class C car) given that BTCC S2000 regs would be Class B. Now the funny thing is that you wouldn't be able to turn a GTO into a BTCC car at all, as it doesn't come close to any of the regs for the S2000 class. Hence the reason I keep saying that direct comparison with the real world is not valid.

And none of this changes the fact that your original claim was that tyres shouldn't be in PP/PI systems because real racing bodies don't control tyres and compounds.

The argument I put forward was that tires shouldn't change a class of cars. Just for fun, please tell me how many compounds of tires you can choose in Forza 4.

I personally love the 9 tire compounds in GT5, don't you? Well, more than that if you count the rain, snow and dirt tires.

Forza has four grades of tyre, stock, street, race and drag. Now while I love the range of options in GT5 the simple fact is that all they do is act as a grip multiplier, rather than differing tyre compounds with differing characteristics. That however is a discussion for another thread.

Actually, it makes complete sense. I can build a 2004 Pontiac GTO in GT5 to my hearts content, and you know what? There isn't some fictional letter grade hanging above my car.

Lets just say there is a 500PP seasonal on GT5 that has a restriction of Sports Hard for the tires. See where I am going here?

All the while giving a letter grade. Have I told you how much I don't like that?[/quote]
You have said that repeatedly, yet you are happy with an event being classed as 500PP but not with it being 500PI/B? Other than one being broken down into letter ranges based on a PI value what difference exists?

Now if GT5 was full of races with 237PP limits or the letter ranges in FM4 had no link to the PI system you might have a point, but as it stands your condemning one based on it using a letter rather than a number?

Tires work torwards the Performance Index. I like that. I don't like how it works against the letter grade. You do!

But the letter grade is simply a band of PI ranges? If (as you clear said you wanted) GT5's PP system included tyres then the exact same thing would happen. If you had a car at 500PP on SM tyres and stuck some RM on it then it would no longer be a 500PP car. You've said you would have no issue with this happening but if the PP/PI was put into a range (as the seasonal all but do) you suddenly have an issue with it?

Indeed. It's why there is a little thing called "choice" and "likes". I choose and like to play GT5 alot more than I do Forza for various reasons, some including the aforementioned letter grade. LOL

I get that its your preference, and I have no problem with that. What I'm struggling to get to grips with is the reason why you don't like the letter grades? (aside from the change in reason for preferring GT5s system over Forza's)

 

[maxpontiac]

Discussing with you requires a ton of time. BTW... Thanks for only replying once a day to me. LOL

Anyways...on to the task at hand.

Scaff

Here is what you said at the end of your post.

What I'm struggling to get to grips with is the reason why you don't like the letter grades?

I am going to piece your reply together out of the original order you posted in order to answer your question.

Forza has four grades of tyre, stock, street, race and drag. Now while I love the range of options in GT5 the simple fact is that all they do is act as a grip multiplier, rather than differing tyre compounds with differing characteristics. That however is a discussion for another thread.

Actually Scaff, I brought that up to prove a point.

On the last point here first, no the tyres are not always identical, the very reason why I posted the 2011 BTCC regs is that they run two differing builds of car side by side (NGTC and S2000), yet the compete against each other, the cars vary in a number of ways one of which is tyres.

Forza has ONE type of racing tire. Are you catching where I am going yet? There is no other choice besides one grade of street and one grade of racing. The entire system is very limited when it comes to tires. It's why I actually like the tire system in GT5 better.

What you brought up there (NGTC and S2000) isn't really a fair comparison since the tire options in Forza come no where close enough to meet the BTCC requirements. Right?

You however mention that you would not be able to turn your Class C GTO into a BTCC car in FM4, well no you wouldn't (as a class C car) given that BTCC S2000 regs would be Class B. Now the funny thing is that you wouldn't be able to turn a GTO into a BTCC car at all, as it doesn't come close to any of the regs for the S2000 class. Hence the reason I keep saying that direct comparison with the real world is not valid.

Sir, the GTO when taken into Class B cannot compete. It stuggles to compete in the C Class due to it's weight too.

And none of this changes the fact that your original claim was that tyres shouldn't be in PP/PI systems because real racing bodies don't control tyres and compounds.

I never said that tires shouldn't be included in PP/PI systems. I said that they "real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses".

You have said that repeatedly, yet you are happy with an event being classed as 500PP but not with it being 500PI/B? Other than one being broken down into letter ranges based on a PI value what difference exists?

No I am not happy. Why? My 500 PP GTO can have six grades of street tires and 3 grades of racing tires in GT5.

My GTO in FM4 cannot do the same. Couple in the imaginary letter grade, I have reached an oft mentioned conclusion that some find difficulty in accepting.

Now if GT5 was full of races with 237PP limits or the letter ranges in FM4 had no link to the PI system you might have a point, but as it stands your condemning one based on it using a letter rather than a number?

Yes. I have repeatedly stated that I do not appove the lettering system in place with Forza.

Oh, and I have a point. It's one that you do not agree with and/or do not like.

But the letter grade is simply a band of PI ranges? If (as you clear said you wanted) GT5's PP system included tyres then the exact same thing would happen.

During the short time the tires were part of the PP system it still worked quite well and didn't feel as penalty heavy as Forza's most likely due to the fact I could still put racing tires on my car (thanks to GT's inclusion of more than one type) albeit hardness and durability varied.

If you had a car at 500PP on SM tyres and stuck some RM on it then it would no longer be a 500PP car. You've said you would have no issue with this happening but if the PP/PI was put into a range (as the seasonal all but do) you suddenly have an issue with it?

With the seasonal I am allowed to put whatever upgrades I want on my GTO without fear of leaving some imaginary class as set the PP to 500 (for example).

I know that the seasonal has defined the maximum tire settings as Sports Soft (for example). I know that everyone will be forced to use that tire compound. Even if it's not and let's say "racing soft" is the max. I could still putting racing tires on my car and have a considerable upgrade over plain ole street tires.

If Forza's class grade was present in GT5, you could expect the competitors to include classes "S", "A", "B", (via de-tuning) and of course "C" present. IE - Many different types of cars instead of the handfull under 500 in Forza.

Finally... If Forza actually offered more racing tire compounds, I most likely wouldn't have a gripe.

 

[APXCaramel]

With the seasonal I am allowed to put whatever upgrades I want on my GTO without fear of leaving some imaginary class as set the PP to 500 (for example).

I know that the seasonal has defined the maximum tire settings as Sports Soft (for example). I know that everyone will be forced to use that tire compound. Even if it's not and let's say "racing soft" is the max. I could still putting racing tires on my car and have a considerable upgrade over plain ole street tires.

If Forza's class grade was present in GT5, you could expect the competitors to include classes "S", "A", "B", (via de-tuning) and of course "C" present. IE - Many different types of cars instead of the handfull under 500 in Forza.

Finally... If Forza actually offered more racing tire compounds, I most likely wouldn't have a gripe.

No..... You can't de-tune a S-class car into C class. It's impossible to go that far. The farthest would be a RWD Skyline or a NA Supra, but you don't go so far down that you can build it up. A RWD Skyline (As the example). Starts life as a ~A510. When you RWD swap it, it becomes ~B490. So, that puts it at such a disadvantage in B class, because equipping a tire that would make it competitive, places it out of class, because it is faster than a B class car. Do you see where this is going? And you understand you can detune a GT500 car to run a 450pp event in GT5, but in Forza, no such way. Why? Because detuning doesn't really exist (other than heavy rims) and it doesn't bring the car out of R2. So, this point is invalid.

The fact that you can't change the tire compound in the race is the sole reason why it is included in the PI. Now, if you could, I believe that Forza would class your car by the fastest tire available to you (the grippest tire that you have purchased). But, because Forza has built it into the PI system, it makes perfect sense. The car will go faster with those tires, so we need to adjust the PI.






Here's a suggestion. Just look at the numbers. Imagine a letter system wasn't in place, but you had to follow the numbers. Would the PI system make sense to you then?

 

[Scaff]

Actually Scaff, I brought that up to prove a point.

Forza has ONE type of racing tire. Are you catching where I am going yet? There is no other choice besides one grade of street and one grade of racing. The entire system is very limited when it comes to tires. It's why I actually like the tire system in GT5 better.

Yes Forza only has one grade of racing tyre. One grade that you can alter both the size, section and profile for, so in reality its not just 'one' tyre. Its one tyre compound with a wide range of options in terms of the tyres dimensions and the size of the contact patch that sees the road (and which can be altered separately front and back).

What you brought up there (NGTC and S2000) isn't really a fair comparison since the tire options in Forza come no where close enough to meet the BTCC requirements. Right?

No, as you can alter the tyre dimensions within Forza and size/contact patch carries across both the regs discussed in that section.

Sir, the GTO when taken into Class B cannot compete. It stuggles to compete in the C Class due to it's weight too.

Both of which are factors around the ability and nature of upgrades within the title, not the PI/Class system itself.

Its about as valid as me arguing that I can't take a TVR Speed Six down to 150PP in GT5 and then blaming the PP system.

I never said that tires shouldn't be included in PP/PI systems. I said that they "real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses".

Odd because that's exactly what this...

I would place Forza's system above Gran Turismo if it wasn't for one thing.

The tires.

Tires do NOT take a car out of it's class.

.....and this....

Take a look at Kaz's recent race in the Ring 24HR event.

He specifically stated that they changed the compound on the car he was driving during the race.

His GTR didn't move up a class when it happened correct?

...read as to me. Now as the Forza class system and PI values are linked (one is simply a band based on the value of the other) what did you mean other than tyres shouldn't change PI (which is the only way a class is going to change).

Oh and this "real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses" is still wrong. You are not free in any racing series to simply use whatever compound of tyre you feel like, do so and it will most certainly 'take' you out of that class, via disqualification and/or failed scrutineering.

No I am not happy. Why? My 500 PP GTO can have six grades of street tires and 3 grades of racing tires in GT5.

My GTO in FM4 cannot do the same. Couple in the imaginary letter grade, I have reached an oft mentioned conclusion that some find difficulty in accepting.

Yet in Forza each of your grades of tyres can have a wide range of differing sizes and profiles, which your GTO can't do in GT5. I still don't see what that has to do with an imaginary letter code, which is no less subjective in its application than a 500PP value attached to a car or race?

No of which goes any way to explaining why a change to a component that affects the performance of a car shouldn't change the Performance Index/Points for that car. A value to is used to allow cars to be matched based on performance.

Yes. I have repeatedly stated that I do not appove the lettering system in place with Forza.

Oh, and I have a point. It's one that you do not agree with and/or do not like.


During the short time the tires were part of the PP system it still worked quite well and didn't feel as penalty heavy as Forza's most likely due to the fact I could still put racing tires on my car (thanks to GT's inclusion of more than one type) albeit hardness and durability varied.

So your saying that if tyres were in the PP system you would neevr comes across a situation in which a tyre grade could not be used and still enable you to reach a PP limit?

Sorry but I don't see that happening, and given that PP values are the same basic idea of PI values and the class code is simply a band of that I just don't see why its an issue.

With the seasonal I am allowed to put whatever upgrades I want on my GTO without fear of leaving some imaginary class as set the PP to 500 (for example).

I know that the seasonal has defined the maximum tire settings as Sports Soft (for example). I know that everyone will be forced to use that tire compound. Even if it's not and let's say "racing soft" is the max. I could still putting racing tires on my car and have a considerable upgrade over plain ole street tires.

No everyone is not forced to use that tyre in a GT5 seasonal at all, the just have no idea what the difference is if they run a lower grade compound, nor do they gain any advantage for running a lower performance spec car via PP bonus.

People don't run any other tyres in GT5 seasons not because they can't (Nothing actually stops you) but because it makes no sense to do so.

If Forza's class grade was present in GT5, you could expect the competitors to include classes "S", "A", "B", (via de-tuning) and of course "C" present. IE - Many different types of cars instead of the handfull under 500 in Forza.

Finally... If Forza actually offered more racing tire compounds, I most likely wouldn't have a gripe.

A handful of cars in FM4 below 500PI/C?

You must have a very different copy of FM4 to me as 278 cars (in stock form) fall into that band (out of 671 in total), in other words just over 40% of the total car count. That is not a handful of cars at all.

Now while the ballast (which is great) and power limiter (which is not) in GT5 does allow you to bring cars down in PP, the same is true for a number of the mods in FM4 as well. Once again the number is not going to be as large as in GT5, but it can still be done and while I would be happy to see more grades of tyre in FM4 I wouldn't swap it for the size/profile/width options that we have now. As these offer a far more realistic basis on which to turn cars that the grip multipliers offered by changing grade in GT5 (but that again is a discussion for another thread).

 

[Com Fox]

You two have been at this for awhile.

 

[Scaff]

You two have been at this for awhile.

And that added what to the conversation exactly?

 

[maxpontiac]

Scaff

Yes Forza only has one grade of racing tyre. One grade that you can alter both the size, section and profile for, so in reality its not just 'one' tyre. Its one tyre compound with a wide range of options in terms of the tyres dimensions and the size of the contact patch that sees the road (and which can be altered separately front and back).

This all goes back to how both us stated and agreed that both GT5 and FM4 have problems.

In other words, both right and both wrong.

No, as you can alter the tyre dimensions within Forza and size/contact patch carries across both the regs discussed in that section.

Yet you are still limited to ONE type of racing tire which in turn makes Forza's system woefully innacurate.

Its about as valid as me arguing that I can't take a TVR Speed Six down to 150PP in GT5 and then blaming the PP system.

That was a reach. I am not asking for something that is way out of porportion like that. That was nothing more than an erroneous attempt to discredit my point.

I am asking for a GTO to have racing tires in class C with you know, some modifications of my choosing.

Oh and this "real world racing organizations do NOT dictate the car class or placement of a car based on the compound of tires it uses" is still wrong. You are not free in any racing series to simply use whatever compound of tyre you feel like, do so and it will most certainly 'take' you out of that class, via disqualification and/or failed scrutineering.

You can think so sir. But one of the many links we have exchanged between the two of us, all cars are balanced within a class. Meaning horsepower and weight are raised and lowered to represent equality.

Try doing that in Forza's "Class C". I spent way to much time in Forza 3 attempting to do that, so by the time Forza 4 came around, I had given up and accepted it for what it was. I tried in vane with my '04 GTO on the leaderboards mind you.

Still had fun though.👍

Yet in Forza each of your grades of tyres can have a wide range of differing sizes and profiles, which your GTO can't do in GT5. I still don't see what that has to do with an imaginary letter code, which is no less subjective in its application than a 500PP value attached to a car or race?

If you can't see what I am saying, I can't help you any further, but alas...
Once more unto the breach, dear friend?

As I stated way at the beginning, I don't like Forza's lettering system. I can get my horsepower to weight ratio where I want it, only to be stymied when I want to put racing tires on it. I don't want street tires. Have I mentioned that yet?

So your saying that if tyres were in the PP system you would neevr comes across a situation in which a tyre grade could not be used and still enable you to reach a PP limit?

Sorry but I don't see that happening, and given that PP values are the same basic idea of PI values and the class code is simply a band of that I just don't see why its an issue.

That is exactly what I am saying. I could easily come up with a power to weight ratio that I wanted and still included racing tires of some type. It's not that difficult really.

No everyone is not forced to use that tyre in a GT5 seasonal at all, the just have no idea what the difference is if they run a lower grade compound, nor do they gain any advantage for running a lower performance spec car via PP bonus.

Broad assumption on your part there gouping the GT fanbase like that Scaff.

To clarify my meaning here...in the recent Seasonal Races on GT5 most of them have a max compound rating you are allowed to use (sound familar?) and while you can go lower and as you said, it would be foolish to do so.

A handful of cars in FM4 below 500PI/C?

Ok. You got me. That was an exaggeration on my part, but....

Now while the ballast (which is great) and power limiter (which is not) in GT5 does allow you to bring cars down in PP, the same is true for a number of the mods in FM4 as well. Once again the number is not going to be as large as in GT5, but it can still be done

....you did the same thing. In GT5 you can cut the power by 50% and add 200 kg of weight to every car. Forza's mods come nowhere near that unless we do have different copies of FM4 afterall.

and while I would be happy to see more grades of tyre in FM4 I wouldn't swap it for the size/profile/width options that we have now.

Disagree with you here (shocker, I know) but to me, it is more important to have different types of tires within the same class. But as we covered earlier, both are limited in their own regard.

Oh, and RESHIRAM5 does have a point... we have been going at this for while and are pretty much left with philisophical differences in which my mind won't be changed and in all likelihood yours either.

Have a good weekend.