Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

[KinLM]

So I get you can open up the hood and engine cover.. But other than that I can't really compare those two images very well. Is your point simply that you can peel away the body and look inside the cars on Forza? Because we already knew you could already do that with FM4..

 

[SlipZtrEm]

In FM4, it was with a handful of cars. With FM5, it's every single one.

Though, I'd rather know if they've just kept the same crap Photomode, or if they've taken a page from PD and actually had it emulate a real camera.

 

[HAL20XX]

In FM4, it was with a handful of cars. With FM5, it's every single one.

Though, I'd rather know if they've just kept the same crap Photomode, or if they've taken a page from PD and actually had it emulate a real camera.

My focus group senses are tingling, and they're saying "probably not".

 

[Exorcet]

I bit ironic, now it seems Forza is the one putting resources into completely unnecessary amounts of detail. Though I guess on the plus side, Forza has been better at turning out content and making an interesting vehicle list.

Still I'd much rather that Pagani be physically modeled to that level, rather than visually. Maybe next next gen.

 

[Wolfe]

^ It always confused me a bit why the text on every button and stalk of every interior of FM4/Horizon was made legible...particularly with how pixellated liveries are by comparison. I'd call that an unnecessary amount of detail, although it's interesting for poking around in photomode; of course, they made it a PITA to even shoot the interior, which contradicts the point of it.

 

[KinLM]

In FM4, it was with a handful of cars. With FM5, it's every single one.

Though, I'd rather know if they've just kept the same crap Photomode, or if they've taken a page from PD and actually had it emulate a real camera.

Yes but from what I've heard the total number of cars is going to decrease considering Dan would only reveal that "hundreds" of cars would be in the game.

While it still is impressive it's not like being able to open the bonnet is going to improve the racing of the game, something both games need to work on more than this silly million-polygon stuff.

 

[shawtyoner]

Yes but from what I've heard the total number of cars is going to decrease considering Dan would only reveal that "hundreds" of cars would be in the game.

While it still is impressive it's not like being able to open the bonnet is going to improve the racing of the game, something both games need to work on more than this silly million-polygon stuff.

Very good point. Beautifully rendered cars inside and out are well and good, but comes at the cost of a decreased car roster, which I'm pretty sure will be sold back to us as DLC. How many of you would want to see the GT approach on this one?!?!?

I'm sure No would be the popular vote. I tell you though, it will suck not having a car that you loved in FM4, not be there and then having to buy it at an extra cost.

 

[HAL20XX]

Is it really fair to expect all cars from the last-gen to automatically appear in the next-gen?

PD took a route that many obviously disagreed with in GT5. I get the sentiment of it being better to have them in low quality then not at all, but it also changed the perceived quality in the game (and series as a whole). Granted, going from 360 quality assets to X1 isn't nearly as noticeable as PS2 to PS3 assets, but I would have much bigger issues with repaying for carry-over assets versus paying for new and improved assets.

 

[GroupB]

I'll miss the cars, but I won't miss the FM1-era models that have hung around for 7 years.

 

[Wolfe]

At least with BluRay it's not such an egregious waste of disc space to stuff the game with excessive HD details. FM4 should not have needed two discs.

 

[Imari]

Very good point. Beautifully rendered cars inside and out are well and good, but comes at the cost of a decreased car roster, which I'm pretty sure will be sold back to us as DLC. How many of you would want to see the GT approach on this one?!?!?

I'm sure No would be the popular vote. I tell you though, it will suck not having a car that you loved in FM4, not be there and then having to buy it at an extra cost.

I don't think all the cars from FM4 will be available, even including DLC, by the time FM6 comes out.

And yes, I'm glad they're distinguishing themselves from the GT route on this one. I know there's people that like that approach, but I'm not one of them. I have respect for a company that is willing to make the hard decision to cut numbers. It was ballsy when PD did it going from GT2 to GT3, and I'm expecting a similar thing here to be honest.

I think we may be surprised at just how low the car count ends up being, but I also expect people will just get over it.

 

[KinLM]

I don't think all the cars from FM4 will be available, even including DLC, by the time FM6 comes out.

And yes, I'm glad they're distinguishing themselves from the GT route on this one. I know there's people that like that approach, but I'm not one of them. I have respect for a company that is willing to make the hard decision to cut numbers. It was ballsy when PD did it going from GT2 to GT3, and I'm expecting a similar thing here to be honest.

I think we may be surprised at just how low the car count ends up being, but I also expect people will just get over it.

While I do agree with this and prefer quality over quantity, I still feel as though I'll be quite disappointed when the game comes out when I discover most of my favorite cars didn't make it.

In the long run it makes far more sense and I'm glad they did this instead of the PD route..

But at the same time, we're sacrificing all these cars for.. What? The ability to 'open them up' and view all the metal covers and wiring and such..?

Don't get me wrong, it's extremely cool!

But it doesn't help the racing and while the AI may be fine (at least in FM4, hoping 5's new AI is even better) the fact is that the core racing aspect is still something that needs to be refined in Forza like it does Gran Turismo.

All the races feel the same, maybe with different regulations but they're all relatively short. Endurance races were scrapped. Multi-class races are pointless as of now. The "World Championship" races are really just 2 identical races.

There are no real championships in Forza (something GT actually has it beat on) so as far as World Tour mode went, the points system was a bit.. Useless. Pitstops still lack any sort of visual excitement (not that pitstops are necessary but honestly I wouldn't mind if they spent a little time making some simple animations, GT4 did it).

But most of all every race is at some sort of class level. This idea is good in theory but in FM4 this meant that all races were at one of only 10 different levels. If they would ditch the class rankings and have more unique PI level races (not just 500, 600, 700) but races that were at 525, 785, 650, etc. it would make tuning and choosing your car far more exciting and would open up alot of opportunities for cars that aren't usually competitive at any class level to maybe have a race or two that they're fast in.

These are the sort of things I'd like to see fixed before we worry about million polygon cars that nobody will ever take a second glance at in an actual race and that's why I'm upset to see so many good cars leave the game in place of this useless attention to detail that really should be a little lower on the priority list.

 

[Chippy569]

you're sacrificing it for the forzavista sure, but also for the new materials system inside and out (which includes the new paint layers, etc. etc.) - all of those materials had to be redesigned and reassigned per car. You're also sacrificing it for the new audio system, which is going to blow your minds. You're also sacrificing it for the new physics system which feels great. These are three immediately noticeable, appreciable, and impressive areas that directly relate to the cars that are vastly improved over previous versions of the game. Once you get your eyes and ears on it (and your hands on whatever controller device you end up using) you'll have a hard time looking back. It really is like experiencing a movie on blu-ray and then watching it on vhs.

And nothing about the classing system or career has really been announced yet, so you're sort of jumping the gun to assume those aspects were "ignored," especially in place of poly count.

 

[HAL20XX]

Well said, Chippy.

@KinLM, I agree with everything you said about the race selection, particularly the part about mid-level restrictions for classes.

 

[KinLM]

you're sacrificing it for the forzavista sure, but also for the new materials system inside and out (which includes the new paint layers, etc. etc.) - all of those materials had to be redesigned and reassigned per car. You're also sacrificing it for the new audio system, which is going to blow your minds. You're also sacrificing it for the new physics system which feels great. These are three immediately noticeable, appreciable, and impressive areas that directly relate to the cars that are vastly improved over previous versions of the game. Once you get your eyes and ears on it (and your hands on whatever controller device you end up using) you'll have a hard time looking back. It really is like experiencing a movie on blu-ray and then watching it on vhs.

And nothing about the classing system or career has really been announced yet, so you're sort of jumping the gun to assume those aspects were "ignored," especially in place of poly count.

Thats my whole point though. T10 are focusing too much on the sensual side of the game; the visuals, sound, etc.

They were already leading in that area is the thing. Maybe not quite in visuals but they had a much more consistent roster of good looking cars.

I don't want all this new visual stuff and sound stuff (I'm glad the physics engine was improved but even it wasnt on the top of my list)

If I were T10 I would've announced any changes with career mode and class system IMMEDIATELY and the fact that they still haven't makes me feel like it won't all be too revolutionary over in that area.

What I'm saying is, what's the point of detailed cars with cool paint schemes and great sounds in a racinggame when the thing they need to be focusing on is the RACING itself?

It's the same with GT. Premium cars mean nothing (except for in the exceptional photo mode) if you can't have a half decent race. New tracks mean nothing if all you'll ever be doing is essentially practice laps.

Forza needs to work on what a race in FM5 feels like and what kind of cars you can race (like more mid-range class races) and having something more than just a 3 lap sprint in every race with no weather racing and no time change instead of all the flashy stuff because that's not what was lacking in the first place. The racing itself is what needs spicing up, not the cars and sounds and such.

 

[TokoTurismo]

If my Ford Focus RS '09 gets removed, I'm going to be mad...

 

[HAL20XX]

If my Ford Focus RS '09 gets removed, I'm going to be mad...

But you said you have no intention of buying the game. Why would it matter?

 

[TokoTurismo]

But you said you have no intention of buying the game. Why would it matter?

Not right now really. Well, not until the X1's price drops alittle first. Than I'll get my hands on it. But like I said, T10 better not get rid of the Ford Focus RS '09, Forza (that's around GT's level) is the only one I can enjoy driving it.

 

[HAL20XX]

Gotcha. Yeah, I'd be disappointed if they dropped it, though I highly doubt they would.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Gotcha. Yeah, I'd be disappointed if they dropped it, though I highly doubt they would.

Agreed. 👍 But if they did drop it, it won't be a dealbreaker for me. I'll still buy FM5 in the flash.

Besides, theres another Ford Focus I can enjoy anyway, haha.

 

[Imari]

But at the same time, we're sacrificing all these cars for.. What? The ability to 'open them up' and view all the metal covers and wiring and such..?

I'm with you on not pushing graphical prowess over good racing and the like, but I sort of doubt how much the two overlap in a development sense. There's always the budgetary side, in that maybe they spent all their money on graphic artists and then got an intern to knock up the career over a weekend, but for the most part I feel like graphics and gameplay are fairly independent.

That may not be the case, but that's sort of the assumption behind what I say.


In terms of why you're sacrificing all the cars...I feel it's better to get it done in small chunks. If you look at GT6 now, it's got 1200 cars and presumably about 400 of them will be premium. Say they get another hundred or so out as DLC between now and GT7, and they have another hundred or so held back as new content for GT7.

They have to drop from 1300+ to ~600. That's a big drop, even if they go the sensible route and start consolidating their dupes and near-dupes. And that's only if they're still using PS3 era assets on PS4, so while they look very nice, technically they're still behind the times. Who knows whether they're built to a level that enables the kind of internal detail (and potentially damage) that it looks like Forzavista models will be capable of.

Forza on the other hand likely keeps maxing out at 6-700 cars at the end of each generation, but those cars are built specifically for the platform. How much of an advantage that is is debatable, but it seems like a better idea to me.

Personally, I don't have as much of a problem with lack of raw car count as some. I was perfectly happy with the car list in say Shift 2 (car list only, there was other major issues with that game). ~200 well chosen cars is enough for me to have a good time.

More is always better, but I'm not really that willing to accept lower levels of quality for that more-ness. 200 premiums in GT5 (had they been well chosen to cover a wide range of types) would have been acceptable, had it taken 2-3 years to make instead of 5.

 

[Speedster911]

Thats my whole point though. T10 are focusing too much on the sensual side of the game; the visuals, sound, etc.

They were already leading in that area is the thing. Maybe not quite in visuals but they had a much more consistent roster of good looking cars.

I don't want all this new visual stuff and sound stuff (I'm glad the physics engine was improved but even it wasnt on the top of my list)

If I were T10 I would've announced any changes with career mode and class system IMMEDIATELY and the fact that they still haven't makes me feel like it won't all be too revolutionary over in that area.

What I'm saying is, what's the point of detailed cars with cool paint schemes and great sounds in a racinggame when the thing they need to be focusing on is the RACING itself?

It's the same with GT. Premium cars mean nothing (except for in the exceptional photo mode) if you can't have a half decent race. New tracks mean nothing if all you'll ever be doing is essentially practice laps.

Forza needs to work on what a race in FM5 feels like and what kind of cars you can race (like more mid-range class races) and having something more than just a 3 lap sprint in every race with no weather racing and no time change instead of all the flashy stuff because that's not what was lacking in the first place. The racing itself is what needs spicing up, not the cars and sounds and such.

Agreed. You can only manage to hog a racing game with audio, graphics and physics alone for so long. T10's on borrowed time. And now that the new hardware is here, they have absolutely no reason not to focus on key racing aspects. Aspects that would legitimize the term 'Motorsport' in their game title. At the moment, I don't think it's well justified.

If not, then perhaps, they are aiming for a different direction. In any case, there are plenty of good sims to choose from. I just hope FM doesn't go stale and turns into another GT type love affair gone bad.

 

[Imari]

If not, then perhaps, they are aiming for a different direction. In any case, there are plenty of good sims to choose from. I just hope FM doesn't go stale and turns into another GT type love affair gone bad.

It's entirely possible. The good thing is that indy and small studios are getting more and more viable. While pCARS may not be the thing that starts to push the FM/GT genre, there's room for other companies to do the same.

Frankly, I'm waiting for someone to just license the Assetto Corsa engine and make a console game out of it. I imagine with next-gen consoles being more PC-like than ever, the possibilities for getting even something like the ISI engine running are much better.

I doubt anyone will come out with another direct competitor simply because the financials of getting something to go head to head would be insane. But FM/GT may find themselves being pecked to death by sparrows within the next five years.

 

[pooioo]

If you remove Nascar cars, Toyota clones, special tuned cars, GT Academy cars, you have easily 100 premium cars in GT5 and I think GT6 will reach 200. I don't know about Forza numbers but I always prefer this game in terms of licenses even if GT5 and soon GT6 have a lot of interesting cars.


But there is some logic here. If you compare the rosters, Turn 10 employs twice as many people (300 in 2009) as Polyphony (maximum of 150 in 2010), but I don't know how many people exactly work on 3D modelisation for each team.

 

[phantomzm]

This is an interesting bit about the physics in GT6; from Polygon(http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/11/47...-talks-physics-engines-smartphone-linkups-and)

"Yamauchi also addressed the idea that Gran Turismo often "feels" a lot different from other driving sims in action, pointing out that the physics engine could have a lot to do with that impression. "We develop our physics engine based on the results of all the test measurements that we make," he said, "but it's not necessarily the case that these measurement results are always going to be the same as actual driving conditions. What's more, even now there are still a lot of things that happen to a car in motion that we don't fully understand. In other words, there's room for imagination in this genre, and I think the part of any game's physics engine that's more 'imagination' is what makes one sim feel different from each other."

 

[Northstar]

Thats my whole point though. T10 are focusing too much on the sensual side of the game; the visuals, sound, etc.

I think MS may be to blame there, for both the first XB1 and the 360 they had PGR games at launch, however since that franchise is seemingly dead it's up to Forza to provide eye candy for the launch.

 

[Imari]

This is an interesting bit about the physics in GT6; from Polygon(http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/11/47...-talks-physics-engines-smartphone-linkups-and)

"Yamauchi also addressed the idea that Gran Turismo often "feels" a lot different from other driving sims in action, pointing out that the physics engine could have a lot to do with that impression. "We develop our physics engine based on the results of all the test measurements that we make," he said, "but it's not necessarily the case that these measurement results are always going to be the same as actual driving conditions. What's more, even now there are still a lot of things that happen to a car in motion that we don't fully understand. In other words, there's room for imagination in this genre, and I think the part of any game's physics engine that's more 'imagination' is what makes one sim feel different from each other."

I'd be interested to know what parts he thinks gives GT it's distinctive feel, mostly because the GT feel originated with games that are not at all sim-like by the standards of today. Don't get me wrong, GT1 and GT2 were (and are) great games, but the simulation aspects are really limited.

 

[Speedster911]

This is an interesting bit about the physics in GT6; from Polygon(http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/11/47...-talks-physics-engines-smartphone-linkups-and)

"Yamauchi also addressed the idea that Gran Turismo often "feels" a lot different from other driving sims in action, pointing out that the physics engine could have a lot to do with that impression. "We develop our physics engine based on the results of all the test measurements that we make," he said, "but it's not necessarily the case that these measurement results are always going to be the same as actual driving conditions. What's more, even now there are still a lot of things that happen to a car in motion that we don't fully understand. In other words, there's room for imagination in this genre, and I think the part of any game's physics engine that's more 'imagination' is what makes one sim feel different from each other."

^^ Riiiiiight, and this guy was a pro race driver at one point? I see....

Dan is simply a car lover and has had no exposure to motorsports, yet you can clearly see the quality his team churns out every two years. It's a matter of innovation, creativity and using the right dev tools, unlike these silly and lame excuses Yamauchi keeps coming up with.

 

[Imari]

^^ Riiiiiight, and this guy was a pro race driver at one point? I see....

He's right.

There's a number of aspects of tyre technology that are still not well understood. See the drama in F1 this year in particular around controlling the heat and wear of the tyres. And Pirelli's problems trying to get them not to blow up.

Tyres are nowhere near as well understood as say, spring and damper systems for which we have largely definitive equations.

Things continue to be discovered in aerodynamics which is why racing team continue to develop improvements. If aerodynamics was fully understood, everyone would be using the most efficient package and that'd be the end of it.

A car is a very complex object, and if you think that equations exist to fully define every part of it then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Exorcet]

^^ Riiiiiight, and this guy was a pro race driver at one point? I see....

"It does this and we don't know why" is probably more common in engineering and physics than people think.

Imagination is not how you fill that gap though, or at least not the word I would use.