Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread

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SlipZtrEm

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SlipZtrEm
Alrighty. So, this sort of thread always pops up. Surprisingly, it hasn't yet, in the four weeks that FM6 has been available to Ultimate Edition players. To avoid having the same people dragging the same threads off onto the same topic, I'm posting it to collect all such physics discussions under one umbrella. Let's leave it up to the ever-capable @Scaff to explain the rest:

OK I am re-opening this thread this in the hope that by providing an area for discussion of the merits of both series it will help stop these discussion occurring in other threads and dragging them off-topic.

However I feel some clear ground rules need to be put in place.

The first and most obvious regards the AUP. Every single post will be expected to follow the AUP, any AUP violations will result in action being taken by the staff.

However I want to clarify a few points in this regard:

  • Opinion is not fact - don't present it as such
  • Argue the point don't attack the person making it
  • The term 'fanboy' (including any and all derivations) is banned
  • Accusations of 'Troll' simply because you don't like what someone says are also out
  • If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them
  • Don't just post up pictures and video without any form of meaningful comment. This is a discussion thread not a picture/video gallery. Offending posts will be deleted on sight.

The staff reserve the right to amend and adjust the above as often and in any way we see fit, so think before you hit that post button.

Discuss away, but play nicely.


Scaff

Go forth, sim-racing brethren.
 

VXR

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Every car I've driven feels different and to my driving experience, the consistency of the way the car reacts to your inputs is in direct corollary to real world driving. This is using normal steering, as I just can't get the precise control on the pad for sim steering 100% down, so I've given up on it.

I can't ask for any more than that and In this regard, PCars feels just as good on a pad.
 
13,664
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lImaRobotl
Likewise, I can't get into simulation steering as it doesn't seem realistic concerning pads, but that's probably due to the relatively short throws that you'd be doing with the sticks.

There seems to be an overall misconception that the physics have changed dramatically towards oversteer, but what I've noticed from people explaining it and from my very first race in the game, it seems like the overall sensitivity to inputs have been bumped up. It's especially noticeable with the brakes, as I was locking them up pretty easily in the very first race of the game, compared to what I was used to in FM5. Another thing that has been bumped up this iteration, I feel, is weight transfer. It seems to have a much bigger effect on cars this time around.

This sensitivity change results in a number of things happening when people judge the physics, they'll likely lock up the brakes or over compensate with steering lock resulting in oversteer situations. I've been at the main forums helping people and debunking physics issues and the main two things people don't take into account is the sensitivity change, and the difference with weight transfer. A lot of blame is getting put on the physics engine, when it's more often then not comes down to user error. It became especially apparent when they would pinpoint specific cars as undriveable and a complete oversteer mess, but when given to a competent driver it was shown to be the exact opposite.

Overall, the overall grip has been increased I feel, and not in a bad way, but in a more realistic way. FM5 was the more oversteer prone. This time around, it feels a lot more natural.
 
37
Canada
Vancouver, BC
SkiwiNV
I think the default steering / braking deadzones play a large part of the weird feel and quick brake lockup. I set steering to 4-57 and braking at 1-95. Interested to hear what settings other folks are using with the Xbox One controller.
 
13,664
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lImaRobotl
I think the default steering / braking deadzones play a large part of the weird feel and quick brake lockup. I set steering to 4-57 and braking at 1-95. Interested to hear what settings other folks are using with the Xbox One controller.
All of my deadzones are at 0/100, although my outside steering deadzone is set to about 70 or 75. This was also an issue for most, as many people aren't even aware of that tuning menu.
 
Physics feel absolutely super. Probably not as big a difference between F3 and 4 or between 4 and 5 for that matter.

All improvements are welcome - F6 is a title any PC sim purist should happily indulge in.

IMHO, the grip, suspension and weight transfer physics have gotten a touch up. Absolutely loving every minute of playtime.

Guys, stick to SIM steering, even if you're on a pad - keep deads at 0/100 (you prolly have it there by default) and just be patient with the game; it rewards you big time.

Been on SIM since FM4. Haven't looked back.
 
13,664
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lImaRobotl
I'll stick to normal. I don't see it producing any desirable outcome for getting used to it, I heard turn in is a bit better, but I can achieve that through tuning if needed. Snap oversteer corrections with such little play from the sticks just got annoying.

The only time I see my self switching from that is when/if I get a wheel.
 
I'll stick to normal. I don't see it producing any desirable outcome for getting used to it, I heard turn in is a bit better, but I can achieve that through tuning if needed. Snap oversteer corrections with such little play from the sticks just got annoying.

The only time I see my self switching from that is when/if I get a wheel.

Okay cool, I just got used to it..so much so that I'd know exactly how each car would react, either on a stock or tuned suspension. Been racing this way with a half sore-thumb since the GT days. I jam it against the stick somewhat to make corrections as intricate and controlled as possible. Plus, visualization helps.

Normal to me feels too basic and easy. Cheers then, happy motoring.
 
13,664
United States
Los Angeles, CA
lImaRobotl
Okay cool, I just got used to it..so much so that I'd know exactly how each car would react, either on a stock or tuned suspension. Been racing this way with a half sore-thumb since the GT days. I jam it against the stick somewhat to make corrections as intricate and controlled as possible. Plus, visualization helps.

Normal to me feels too basic and easy. Cheers then, happy motoring.
Getting used to it isn't really a problem, it's just that I don't see any favorable result with me doing so. While normal definitely is easier, it also feels more realistic considering our input device.
 

VXR

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motorforum
Driving quickly isn't hard, why make it harder than it needs to be? I burned myself out on 5 because I felt it wasn't 'hardcore' to dumb down to normal. In reality, all I did was spoil it.
 
7,521
Denmark
Denmark
I spent time jumping back and forth between normal and simulation steering for the first two weeks of playing. With all deadzone sliders set 0 - 100, as pointed out by @Speedster911, simulation really turned out be the most rewarding experience for me. There really was no looking back once I got a feel for how the full physics engine translates to the controller.

There seems to be an overall misconception that the physics have changed dramatically towards oversteer, but what I've noticed from people explaining it and from my very first race in the game, it seems like the overall sensitivity to inputs have been bumped up. It's especially noticeable with the brakes, as I was locking them up pretty easily in the very first race of the game, compared to what I was used to in FM5. Another thing that has been bumped up this iteration, I feel, is weight transfer. It seems to have a much bigger effect on cars this time around.

This is also what I came to realize. The more responsive the car handles, the more sensitive steering inputs will be. I may be stating the obvious there, but it's worth keeping in mind when using the controller for Forza 6.
 

McLaren

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I need to try sim steering again now that I've had more playing time since launch. Will likely also get around to actually changing the dead zones as I did in FM5.
 

dylansan

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MINICOOPER120
Sim Steering gave me a lot of trouble with snap oversteer at first, so I switched to normal. It seems to vary by car, but I used a sim steering mod for a while and haven't had much trouble since then. I think the removing the deadzones helps with maintaining control, though I think with more practice I will feel more control anyway.

I must say, driving with a controller requires much more concentration for me than the wheel. Every movement must be very deliberate, unlike the wheel where it had become almost second nature what motion to make to change the direction of the car. For example, I have trouble aiming for apexes now, and I'm hoping to improve with time. Of course, ideally I'll be able to get a wheel before too long as that's my preferred controller.
 
122
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Here
waboo
wabo15s
First time Forza player chiming in here, I think it's 'A whole new thing' compared to GT6. I spent the whole day learning both Forza and a TX setup.

The biggest difference in physics is how a vehicle behaves off throttle, there is a depth that I have not experienced before (G27/GT series). Impressed so far.
 
6,318
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West Virginia
HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
The sim steering thing does not seem very real at all. I tried to use it for a while but it was just to unrealistic and has been every since the first patch on Forza 4. Not sure what they broke there but whatever it was ruined the sim steering setting. I use sim steering on every game but Forza. IRL I have driven lots of different kinds of cars and not once have I ever had one behave the way they do in Forza when sim steering is enabled. Fortunately there is normal mode so the game is still playable.

I am also a bit put off by the number of cars that exhibit lift off oversteer, this is normal for some types of cars but in Forza it seems to happen to all types of cars, many of them feel like the rear is on ice when you lift off throttle. Real cars do not do that. I can't remember a single time that I was driving a FR car and had the tail slide out from lifting off the throttle. I have had the come out plenty from stepping on the throttle though ;) In a real FR car more often than not when you lift the car will snap back straight but on Forza it wants to spin out or in the case of sim steering snap back hard the other way and then spin out.

I'm still trying to come to grips with some of the tuning in the game, being seeing some very odd things here and there but so far I am not all that impressed with the physics and handling.
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
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I dont think I've ever played Forza with normal steering. Always been sim since day one. Feels fine to me but IMO steering hasnt ever been an issue on any game.
 
The sim steering thing does not seem very real at all. I tried to use it for a while but it was just to unrealistic and has been every since the first patch on Forza 4. Not sure what they broke there but whatever it was ruined the sim steering setting. I use sim steering on every game but Forza. IRL I have driven lots of different kinds of cars and not once have I ever had one behave the way they do in Forza when sim steering is enabled. Fortunately there is normal mode so the game is still playable.

I am also a bit put off by the number of cars that exhibit lift off oversteer, this is normal for some types of cars but in Forza it seems to happen to all types of cars, many of them feel like the rear is on ice when you lift off throttle. Real cars do not do that. I can't remember a single time that I was driving a FR car and had the tail slide out from lifting off the throttle. I have had the come out plenty from stepping on the throttle though ;) In a real FR car more often than not when you lift the car will snap back straight but on Forza it wants to spin out or in the case of sim steering snap back hard the other way and then spin out.

I'm still trying to come to grips with some of the tuning in the game, being seeing some very odd things here and there but so far I am not all that impressed with the physics and handling.

Out of curiosity, how many of these cars do you push as hard IRL as you do in Forza? Do you have track experience?

SIM steering works perfectly fine on a controller as long as you understand how the input is translated into output; keep your deads at 0/100 and remember in normal steering, a nudge or tap is all it takes to correct the slide. In SIM, if you overcompensate, you will have to do the "after-correction" yourself. Sometimes just half a centimeter or less is what it takes to correct a high-speed 45 deg angle slide.. you just have to try and feel what the car is doing, and IMO the rumble, vibration and cam movement all do a splendid job or relaying what the suspension is doing.

However, if you are on a wheel and experiencing issues with SIM, then your concerns may be genuine.

In my experience, normal just feels far too easy and takes out all the intricate nuisances involved in piloting a high-speed vehicle.
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
I use a wheel and sim mode does not feel realistic. It is fine until you need to countersteer and then it is not. It kind of feels like the counter steer input is being exaggerated by the game and causing a little counter steer input to translate into a lot of countersteer which results in over correction and a slide the other way which can quickly result in total loss of control.

No I have no track experience, never had the chance to drive on one. I have also never driven on real race tires, but I have had many cars at the limit and then some on normal tires and they do not behave this way.
 
I use a wheel and sim mode does not feel realistic. It is fine until you need to countersteer and then it is not. It kind of feels like the counter steer input is being exaggerated by the game and causing a little counter steer input to translate into a lot of countersteer which results in over correction and a slide the other way which can quickly result in total loss of control.

No I have no track experience, never had the chance to drive on one. I have also never driven on real race tires, but I have had many cars at the limit and then some on normal tires and they do not behave this way.

Well, the way you've described it... that's definitely not realistic behavior. Is your wheel set to full 900 degrees or do you prefer to keep it at 540 or 270 degrees? What wheel is it? I'm assuming you have the latest firmware for it.
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
There was an issue in Forza 4 as well. At first the steering was ok in Sim mode, or at least it was at some settings. I forget what I was using then, somewhere around 600 I think. They had an issue with 900 and another issue where you would not get any credits for winning a race if you used a wheel on an oval track. They patched this and in the process broke the sim steering which apparently has still not been fixed. In FM4 I did a lot of testing on it and found that at 270 it was ok but as soon as I went above the 270 the counter steer no longer worked properly. The advice on the Fanatec boards was to use normal if you use a wheel so that is what I ended up doing. Normal seemed more real than Sim and it still does.

I have noticed that some cars turn much sharper than they should when barely moving but seem ok when going faster. I have also noticed that at least some of the race cars do not do this but some of the street cars I have used when you are barely moving if you crank the wheel to the lock they can easily do a full U turn in a very tight radius, much tighter than I would expect to be able to do in the real car. I haven't tested this after the patch btw.
 
869
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I am also a bit put off by the number of cars that exhibit lift off oversteer

I dont think that what you are suffering with, is just a case of lift off oversteer, but also the weight of the car shifting. Myself and @ImaRobot have been hashing this out for a couple of weeks now on the FM.net forums. And testing cars that people say are not drivable in game due to lift off oversteer, such as the 370z

Driving stock on a default xbox controller with abs/stm/tcs turned off:

Driving stock with my Logitech G920 wheel set to 900°, with abs/stm/tcs turned off, but using a combination of weight shifting/braking feints/lift off to drift it:

And what we have seen, is the fact that most people are either reacting way to slowly when the rear does brake loose. Braking way too hard and too late, which is shifting all the weight forward and off the rear tires (how to initiate a braking feint drift). Driving way to fast into a corner, as they do not get a decent representation of the speed they are attempting to enter at. Some are saying that 70MPH+ feels like 30MPH-. Or they are coasting for the entire corner. I don't know about you, but with regards to the last item in that list. I was taught never to be off the throttle by my driving instructor when taking a corner at speed, such as you would find on a 60mph A-road here in the UK. Even more so if you was coming off a steep downhill gradient, such as can be found around the Yorkshire Moors, and in the Lincolnshire Wolds. Let alone what can be found in Scotland. That isn't to say you should be accelerating however, just keeping your speed, which in turn keeps the car balanced through the corner.

In any sim based racing game that I play, I always mess around with weight shifting as a way to enter a drift. I do this in Forza, I also do it in Assetto Corsa, Rfactor and Iracing. I do this so I can learn how the cars handle and react, and how to stop unwanted behavior from happening during a race. A lot of people seem to be initiating an inertia drift without meaning too in Forza, and I have seen people inadvertently do it in the other games I have listed also. And it is all to easy to do.

With regards to lift off oversteer in real life, different cars are effected by it to different degrees. Some, such as MR's and FF's can be very prone to it. FR's, it all depends on how the car maker has set it up. But all cars will suffer with lift off oversteer at some point and to some degree, even those renowned for been highly stable. There is also another fact to consider here, and it comes down to the driver aids.

The vast majority of cars been built in the last 10 years, will have driver aids to some degree in them. Such as STM, which helps to reduce the likely hood of a spin. The cars are designed around them now, and they are more advanced than they was a decade ago. Especially with cars like the Mclaren P1, which are designed to be driven with those driver aids engaged. Even at speed on a track, as the system used can learn and make you slightly faster. If you asked a Mclaren engineer how to disable those systems in that car, I bet they would think you was insane. With those aids turned off, the car would be a major handful. Just like it is in Forza, and just like it is in Assetto Corsa. Regardless of the levels of mechanical grip it has. With those aids turned off in a video game, we have to be more mindful of all our inputs. With those aids turned on in a video game, we can just mash the throttle, and slam the car left/right to a point. And it will stay vastly more in control than without them. Even the F458 is designed not to have those systems turned off in real life, and the newer Lotus Exige S is also the same. We all know how much more difficult those last 2 cars are to control in Forza with those driver aids turned off, and again, it is the same story in Assetto Corsa. Which also has those 2 cars in it. Even something like a 3rd Ford Focus Zetec has some driver aids built in, and they lull us all into a false sense a security. And they reduce undesirable effects when our driving is less than good. In racing games, if you are like me, you will turn all those aids off. Including ABS.

I used to have a Fiat Grande Punto Sporting, which had a 1.9litre turbo charged diesel engine. It had 130BHP and 206lb feet of torque, and I once turned off the stability management. It didn't take too long before the rear end stepped out off throttle. I wasn't going all that fast (around 40mph), and luckily I was in a front wheel drive car. So a little throttle pulled it back into shape. If I was in an MR, or even an FR and did the same thing. I am not sure I would have been able to correct the behavior (no experience driving those layouts in the real world). I was also on private land with plenty of space, so I didn't put anyone at risk. I certainly am not endorsing people to try it on a public highway, as that would be crazy. But it was something to learn, and something I would likely of never experienced had I not turned off the stability management in my car. The abarth Punto (closest car to my old grande punto sporting) in FM5/FM6/FH2, exhibits the exact same behavior off throttle with the Driver aids turned off.

There is also one more thing to consider. In the real world we have a lot more sensory information, and because of that extra information. We can and do drive differently. In a video game, we are only reacting to sights and sounds. Some, like me and you, have a wheel. So we do get a little additional feedback, but it is not the same as driving a real car. Then there is also our built in survival instinct to consider. In the real world, we have a fear that out actions my cause. We are worried about crashing a car, about hurting ourselves or someone else. Things we do not experience in a video game. The only thing that we have that comes from the real world, is an adrenaline rush, which we will all feel when having a close race in a game. Or in a tight match in COD/Battlefield, and so on. That lack of fear means will will push harder in a game than we would for real, and that fear is not keeping us in check. I certainly know I wouldn't drive as fast on a track in real life, as I do in Forza or other racing games. Because I wouldn't want to end up in hospital or worse.

As for Forza Motorsport 6's physics, and comparison to other racing games. I find that FM6, and even FM5 before it. Are getting very close to what I have experienced on the PC racing sims around. They are not 100% there yet, but no sim currently commercially available is. And I doubt they will ever be, based on just how much information we lose from the real world to a video game. FM6 is certainly getting close to the likes of Assetto Corsa and Iracing.

Anyway, that is my opinion on the matter. And in regards to the physics of FM6 compared to the other sim based track racers I play.
 

VXR

10,234
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Plymouth, UK
motorforum
That's a fantastic post, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

The cars react as they should. You go into a corner too hot, then as in real life you'll have your work cut out. In the mini reviews I'm doing for my photo gallery, you'll see that I start off driving sensibly, keeping the speed up and if it's rear driven, not jumping on the throttle like an on-off switch. Once I've established the sane way, I explore the hooligan tendencies, for want of a better word.

I've seen cars become a delight to keep on the edge of traction and beyond (E46 M3) and ones that feel out of their depth (Mark 2 Focus RS). Then there's the ones in between like the 123 GT that is inherently safety understeer based, but will go beyond the limits of adhesion with real provocation. In general though, the front would still be the dominant axle.

The level of nuance from the pad on normal steering feels great to me. Gone are the days of getting out of shape every corner. Now you have to look for the oversteer more.

As for the real world, the times I've experienced lift-off oversteer have always ended up in snap oversteer. Fortunately it only lead to one crash, the rest were very lucky escapes. Needless to say, in each one of those actions I was driving with the same disregard for safety as I do in Forza.
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
Well, I have noticed that many cars will for example start to step the tail out in a sweeping corner even while on the throttle to some extent and as you lift the more you lift the more pronounced it becomes. I know that weight transfer is an issue and I have driven other sims which do this correctly or I should say more correctly. This is something that you do not normally see much if at all in an FR car. I've never saw it in real life in an FR car. It seems that the way they have did the weight transfer is just not quite right and causes unrealistic behavior on some of the cars.

I have also been doing some testing with tire pressures and that also does not appear to be working properly if at all.
Running an Indy car around Daytona. I am seeing the same tire temps at 32 PSI that I see at 55 PSI [63PSI when hot] I see no difference at all in the telemetry. in both cases the tire is hitting the same temp and heating evenly across the tire. In Project Cars on the other hand where this is done properly just a minor pressure change makes a difference as it should.

What I would expect to see is the center of the tire overheating and a serious loss of grip due to an over inflated tire but that does not seem to be happening.
 
869
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Well, I have noticed that many cars will for example start to step the tail out in a sweeping corner even while on the throttle to some extent and as you lift the more you lift the more pronounced it becomes. I know that weight transfer is an issue and I have driven other sims which do this correctly or I should say more correctly. This is something that you do not normally see much if at all in an FR car. I've never saw it in real life in an FR car. It seems that the way they have did the weight transfer is just not quite right and causes unrealistic behavior on some of the cars.

I have not experienced the behavior in the FR car myself, as I have not driven any. But I have seen plenty of people driving them that have induced this behavior. Either by accident, or by intention. Take a look at keiichi tsuchiya drift bible. In that film, he talks about the techniques on how to enter a drift. Such as pulling the handbrake, using weight transfer, throttle on oversteer, shift locking, and using braking feints. And even lift off oversteer. Its a rather good watch to be fair.

Time stamped to show lift off in an FR Silvia S14

The thing here is, if FR's didn't exhibit lift off induced oversteer as a trait. Then there is no way that half of those techniques for drifting would work well, with only the handbrake entry been the only real way to drift a car in that case. Most of those techniques are connected to the cars weight balance, and that is where lift off oversteer comes into play. When you are off throttle, the weight of the car will still shift around to the front. Which unloads the rear of the car, as you end up inducing engine braking when off throttle. Although it is not the same, nor as strong an effect as braking using the foot brake. It can, and does, cause a cars rear to brake traction. As the weight balance of the car will be unsettled. The one thing that all those drifting techniques have in common though, is the fact that he is always off throttle when initiating. No matter which technique is he using.

As with regards to the rear stepping out under throttle on a sweeping bend, that would come under exceeding the threshold of the tires finite amount of grip. They only have so much available to them before they give, and that is what you are experiencing in that regard. Based on what you describe anyway. When you are taking a corner such as that, you are loading up the weight to the front outside corner of the car. Which in turn removes weight from the rear inside tire. This is why you see some cars with stiff suspension lift up that particular tire from the tarmac under hard cornering. So it becomes a question of modulating the throttle and counter steering throughout the corner, but not lifting off fully. Otherwise, as you noted, it makes the oversteer worse. This is the same in the virtual setting with a sim based racing game, and in the real world.

But there is also what I noted before in my last post, and that comes down to the driver aids used in real life. And the lack of fear we have in the virtual setting compared to real life. They are all things to be considered.

I have friends that race in real life, and I have been checking my information with them since the thread over on the FM.net forums started up, which house the same concerns as you are voicing here. So I am going a lot from what they are saying in regards to all of this. Plus from what I have learnt while watching things like the drift bible, and so on and so forth. As well as basic common sense. I may not be explaining things in the best way though, and I am still probably mixing up a few things here an there. I can only rely what I have seen/heard, and not from personal experience. At least where FR's and MR's are concerned. Either way, it is things I follow in any sim based racing game. And I rarely end up in any difficulty, even in a more "complete" sim such as Assetto or Iracing.
 

VXR

10,234
United Kingdom
Plymouth, UK
motorforum
When I had my E36, I pretty much ragged the heck out of it at all times. I certainly didn't hold back on moorland roads and drove in a manner that I wouldn't even comprehend now as a 30 year old. Needless to say, with only the 2.0 power oversteer was rarely an issue, unless you were really looking for it. With Forza, you don't get many lower-powered RWD cars, not from the 90s saloon car class anyway.

So in Forza, you're dealing with over 200hp in most cases, no fear of failure and a device that will never fully mimic the real car's steering, regardless if you use a wheel. With so little genuine feedback, it's obvious you're going to get more exaggerated results. In truth, this is where sims likely fall down, as it still includes a lot of guess work.

It's one of the reasons I've never wanted a steering wheel. One device to mimic the quick rack of one car, the slower rack of another and let alone cars with variable steering rates. How does a computer wheel mimic these properly? Can it?
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
I watched a little of the drifting video from above but not a lot, yes you can get a FR car to drift and part of that is due to lifting off and the weight transfer but the real cause of the oversteer there is the extra steering input being used by the driver when the weight is transfered likely followed by enough throttle to break traction as well, It you lift an throw a car into a corner with sudden sharp steering oversteer is to be expected on pretty much any car but that is not what i was referring to.

In Forza 6 you get some degree of liftoff oversteer in many cases where you should not be getting it and in cars that are not prone to this, on ones that are prone to it then you get more of it than you should it seems.

Keep in mind that your normal street cars are usually setup to understeer not oversteer.

In regards to the cars in Forza and the HP, a few of the cars I have owned and driven a lot in the real world include 69 Cougar over 300hp, 68 Mustang also over 300hp after placing the engine out of the Cougar in it. 71 Firebird with well over 300hp from a 455 big block. I have also had a couple of Novas. ElCamino, VW Beetle, VW Bus, some later model Firebirds and Mustangs just to name a few. The Cougar was a beast, handled very well for an old muscle car and got sideways only when power was applied or intentionally cranking the wheel harder than one should which I used to do a lot on dirt roads for fun even then some power was required to get it to do more than just a little slide.

None of those cars were exactly like the ones in the game but several of them were very close and none of them drive in game the way they did in real life.
 
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7,521
Denmark
Denmark
I'm not going to argue that Forza 6 physics are flawless, but I think the issues many people experience with lift-off oversteer come down to the simulation not being particularly intuitive. In the case of Forza 6, I think the difficulty in adapting to simulation physics primarily stem from how sensitive the game is to input, which I'll try to summarize below.

Steering: Input sensitivity makes it easy to underestimate sufficient input. Not only can this facilitate a tendency to oversteer on corner entry, but lift-off oversteer rarely requires more than two rapid, yet delicate, taps on the directional pad.

Accelerator: Input sensitivity makes it easy to overlook the benefits of throttle control while cornering. While optimal throttle control not only reduces the likelihood of lift-off oversteer, it also affects the likelihood of recovering from a slide. Apply too little throttle and the chance of quick recovery decreases. Apply too much throttle and the risk of snap oversteer increases. It's all about finding the line of balanced input.

Braking: Input sensitivity makes it easy to create imbalance upon corner entry.

Sense of speed: It's easy to underestimate optimal entry / cornering speed at lower speeds.

Much of this has already been mentioned above, I'm just trying to categorize the things that contribute to making the simulation somewhat difficult to master. Again, I'm not saying Forza 6 physics are flawless, only that the games's sensitivity to inputs can accentuate the sensation that something feels off. Finally, set those deadzone sliders 0 - 100.
 
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37,957
Australia
The Bronx
I find the older classic cars road or race, to be forgiving. New road and race cars should be easier to drive but, they are a handful. The physics of older cars have a huge difference in seat of the pants feel. I can virtually feel the loss of grip. I can modulate brake and throttle more precisely in those cars than modern ones.

I can gather up the Grp5 CSL and Capri from oversteer better than the V8SC. Throttle inputs are too hairline thin with the current modern cars. I'm getting liftoff oversteer in the BTCC A45. At low speeds even.
 

VXR

10,234
United Kingdom
Plymouth, UK
motorforum
The older cars sometimes have much slower steering rates than modern cars, especially now cars are sold by their ability to lap the Nordschleife; almost every modern car that makes it into this game is the sports model, so everything is geared towards a sporting drive. As already mentioned, a lot of moderns don't even have the option to turn off their stability systems, so their behaviour has to be guessed upon when the user turns them off.

My fwd car has next to no weight over the back axle and the wheelbase is long. You try to trailbrake a little too vigorously however, and that back end gets mobile. Downhill on cambered UK roads is not the situation where you want to be inducing oversteer, but it happens. To say the cars are prone to lift-off when it's something accessible in the most modest of cars tells me that the game has got it pretty right.
 
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