Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread

[ImaRobot]

Is that with normal or simulation steering? Not surprised people are struggling going by them videos and my experience of demo. Good that a number of people are speaking out about handling whether it be TeamVVV or users on their own forum, hopefully the next game is a massive improvement.

The real car looks like it drives much better:

Fault comes at the users input. Going off the VVV video of them in the Z4 race car, and how they brought up the handling and going off how horribly they drove it, I purposely took it out on the endurance races and had no such experience with it. If you are smooth, so is the car.

Good thing is though, now you have another great driving video so you can add to your way of experiencing game physics.

 

[VXR]

In physics, if so what are these bigger problems in other games that hinder the experience?

Arcade games, the WRC series at times, certain versions of GT.

 

[Ialyrn]

Fault comes at the users input. Going off the VVV video of them in the Z4 race car, and how they brought up the handling and going off how horribly they drove it, I purposely took it out on the endurance races and had no such experience with it. If you are smooth, so is the car.

Funny thing, I drive the Z4 fully stock yesterday. Mainly because someone was screaming on the FM.net forums how bad it was. I beat a friend who is equally as fast as me on the ring, who was driving a fully tuned LaFerarri in Rclass. I trounced their time by such a large margin, that it wasn't even funny. Not only that, but I took out the Mclaren P1 today and increased that time margin by an even greater amount. lol.

 

[ImaRobot]

Funny thing, I drive the Z4 fully stock yesterday. Mainly because someone was screaming on the FM.net forums how bad it was. I beat a friend who is equally as fast as me on the ring, who was driving a fully tuned LaFerarri in Rclass. I trounced their time by such a large margin, that it wasn't even funny. Not only that, but I took out the Mclaren P1 today and increased that time margin by an even greater amount. lol.

The car is glued to the road as long as you have good throttle modulation.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Compared to the lap I did on the xbox one control pad, I would have to agree. But not when comparing the lap I did on the wheel to the real life footage you have showed. I was not pushing the car as hard with the wheel, and I had the same "hiccups" in the same area's as the real world driver. I was taking note of where they had to apply counter steer, no matter how small.

The issue here is, is that people are expecting Forza to be like burnout. I am seeing with ever more frequency, that people are all or nothing on the inputs they are making. And this is what is causing the issues they are seeing. When it comes to my driving, I try to be as smooth as I possibly can. And by doing so, I am not seeing these issues with the handling that others are. Not only that, but I can only replicate their issues when I drive like an utter tool. I am not saying that Forza is perfect, because it isnt. It still has area's where it needs improvements. But no sim based racing game is perfect, and they all have issues in the same sort of area's.

The way it oversteers looks different to me and handling balance. Were you using sim or normal steering?

Anyway noticed you mentioned the LaFerrari in your latest post, would be interested if you could do a hotlap with it around Monza stock with simulation steering and all aids off and post video.

Fault comes at the users input. Going off the VVV video of them in the Z4 race car, and how they brought up the handling and going off how horribly they drove it, I purposely took it out on the endurance races and had no such experience with it. If you are smooth, so is the car.

Good thing is though, now you have another great driving video so you can add to your way of experiencing game physics.

User input doesn't seem issue with other games.

Yes it is good to add to my experience , handles how I expected from what I know previously.

Arcade games, the WRC series at times, certain versions of GT.

Any particular issue?

 

[ImaRobot]

User input doesn't seem issue with other games.

Which is irrelevant. Cant expect one games inputs to be like the other. Take Project Cars for example, User inputs had to change drastically especially with the horribly optimized controls.

Yes it is good to add to my experience , handles how I expected from what I know previously.

Which is weird is because you put emphasis on cars not handling good and ending in uncontrollable oversteer situations, which isn't the case here.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Which is irrelevant. Cant expect one games inputs to be like the other. Take Project Cars for example, User inputs had to change drastically, especially with the horribly optimized controls.

Surely there would be more struggle with pCARS then, not the other way around?

Interesting though you were arguing that they are similar in controls not so long ago in following posts: Link, Link and Link.

Which is weird is because you put emphasis on cars not handling good. Which isn't the case here.

Why isn't it the case?

 

[Ialyrn]

LaFerrari in your latest post, would be interested if you could do a hotlap with it around Monza stock with simulation steering and all aids off and post video.

Why do you keep asking about sim steering? If you want to know one aspect of Forza that is broken, and has been since FM4. It is Sim steering. All it does is increase the risk for reward, and by doing so makes ALL the cars not only overly twitchy. But excessively hard to counter steer. I have played an absolute ton of racing games, both with a control pad and a wheel. Arcade and sim. And not one of them feels like Forza when Sim steering is turned on. Not even the likes of iRacing and Assetto. If the people who are having issues are using sim steering, then that is one cause of their woes. Still, it is possible to drive with sim steering turned on. And I can quite easily do so. But I don't see how making the handling unrealistically difficult, serves any other purpose but for bragging rights?

The way it oversteers looks different to me and handling balance.

Of course it will look different, the view used in my Forza video isn't the same view used in the real life video you linked too. But by you providing footage of the real car around the same track, I was able to take note of how the driver was using the steering wheel, and how it compared to the movements I made on my Logitech G920 wheel. Which, to be fair, was the only aspect of that video I was paying attention too. That one aspect alone told me everything I need to know, and that the car handles similarly in Forza to that of the real world car.

You have also taken what @ImaRobot was saying out of context. They wasnt saying that Forza 6 and Pcars drive the same on the controller, but that you still have to use delicate precise movements to get the most out of the cars in each game.

If you want to compare to Pcars though, you will have a hard time where I am concerned. I am a WMD member and backed the creation of Pcars, and there is barely anything sim about it in terms of the cars handling. When one can drive a Caterham around Cadwell Park while drifting faster than someone not drifting, it really brings into question how "realistic" something is.

 

[ImaRobot]

Surely there would be more struggle with pCARS then, not the other way around?

Interesting though you were arguing that they are similar in controls not so long ago in following posts: Link, Link and Link.

Why isn't it the case?

It's funny you bring those up, because just like I said, there are different inputs for different games. Funny thing is, if you where paying attention, is that those comparisons where from Simulation steering in Forza to Project cars steering inputs and how you'd have to go about it. To add even more to my point, steering inputs are going to have to be different between the two modes in Forza, alone.

You obviously are missing the point I was making, though. Jumping into both of them from the get go required two completely different take on controls. Had you actually tried it you would have noticed that. Once you finally get Project cars to somewhat resemble some realism with it's inputs, then I was able to finally start to have some resemblance. If you played Project cars in the way they intended from the factory and played Forza without changing anything then they would require two completely different takes.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Anyway noticed you mentioned the LaFerrari in your latest post, would be interested if you could do a hotlap with it around Monza stock with simulation steering and all aids off and post video.

Why bother doing it, when you'll ignore anything that doesn't line up with your pre-conceived notions on the handling of a game you don't even have experience with?

Since you're so sure of the "problems of how the cars handle", surely you can expand on it. Hopefully, it'll amount to more than "isn't GT".

 

[Ialyrn]

Why bother doing it, when you'll ignore anything that doesn't line up with your pre-conceived notions on the handling of a game you don't even have experience with?

Since you're so sure of the "problems of how the cars handle", surely you can expand on it. Hopefully, it'll amount to more than "isn't GT".

lol, that post is just plain awesome Slip. Sorry @Saidur_Ali, but he does make an exceptionally valid point in regards to the current line of discussion and your past exploits.

 

[VXR]

On the PCars front, at least Forza didn't need a controller update to play correctly. Now it's long-since patched, they're both very similar on a pad.

 

[ImaRobot]

On the PCars front, at least Forza didn't need a controller update to play correctly. Now it's long-since patched, they're both very similar on a pad.

That's been fixed? Good, because I got tired of the amount of times I had to go back and forth all the way to the main menu's to make minor changes only to find out that whatever I did isn't working, so I'd have to repeat the process. One of the most annoying things I've ever encountered.

 

[VXR]

That's been fixed? Good, because I got tired of the amount of times I had to go back and forth all the way to the main menu's to make minor changes only to find out that whatever I did isn't working, so I'd have to repeat the process. One of the most annoying things I've ever encountered.

Yeah, patch 2.0 sorted it. It now plays really well. It's the rubbish photomode and ugly track scenery that leaves me cold. Oh, and the lack of touring cars.

 

[Ialyrn]

On the PCars front, at least Forza didn't need a controller update to play correctly. Now it's long-since patched, they're both very similar on a pad.

That's been fixed? Good, because I got tired of the amount of times I had to go back and forth all the way to the main menu's to make minor changes only to find out that whatever I did isn't working, so I'd have to repeat the process. One of the most annoying things I've ever encountered.

Yeah, patch 2.0 sorted it. It now plays really well. It's the rubbish photomode and ugly track scenery that leaves me cold. Oh, and the lack of touring cars.

Funny side note, SMS devs blamed Microsoft for these issues.

 

[VXR]

Oh well they would, wouldn't they. Must have been why Shift 1and 2 suffered similar issues with controllers...

 

[Ialyrn]

Must have been why Shift 1and 2 suffered similar issues with controllers...

on the pc as well, its all that darm Microsofts fault. Blooming windows(insert version) and that sodding Xbox!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Why do you keep asking about sim steering? If you want to know one aspect of Forza that is broken, and has been since FM4. It is Sim steering. All it does is increase the risk for reward, and by doing so makes ALL the cars not only overly twitchy. But excessively hard to counter steer. I have played an absolute ton of racing games, both with a control pad and a wheel. Arcade and sim. And not one of them feels like Forza when Sim steering is turned on. Not even the likes of iRacing and Assetto. If the people who are having issues are using sim steering, then that is one cause of their woes. Still, it is possible to drive with sim steering turned on. And I can quite easily do so. But I don't see how making the handling unrealistically difficult, serves any other purpose but for bragging rights?




Of course it will look different, the view used in my Forza video isn't the same view used in the real life video you linked too. But by you providing footage of the real car around the same track, I was able to take note of how the driver was using the steering wheel, and how it compared to the movements I made on my Logitech G920 wheel. Which, to be fair, was the only aspect of that video I was paying attention too. That one aspect alone told me everything I need to know, and that the car handles similarly in Forza to that of the real world car.

You have also taken what @ImaRobot was saying out of context. They wasnt saying that Forza 6 and Pcars drive the same on the controller, but that you still have to use delicate precise movements to get the most out of the cars in each game.

If you want to compare to Pcars though, you will have a hard time where I am concerned. I am a WMD member and backed the creation of Pcars, and there is barely anything sim about it in terms of the cars handling. When one can drive a Caterham around Cadwell Park while drifting faster than someone not drifting, it really brings into question how "realistic" something is.

Do you not see the problem that all Forza Motorsport games so far that support 900 degrees steering with one to one mapping is broken as you say? Why is it not broken in other simulation games? You say the handling is unrealistically difficult in the games most realistic setting, what does that say to you about the physics engine then?

I did look at steering input too, that and car behaviour looked quite different to me.

Don't see how I took it out of context, linked to three posts saying similar things.

It's funny you bring those up, because just like I said, there are different inputs for different games. Funny thing is, if you where paying attention, is that those comparisons where from Simulation steering in Forza to Project cars steering inputs and how you'd have to go about it. To add even more to my point, steering inputs are going to have to be different between the two modes in Forza, alone.

You obviously are missing the point I was making, though. Jumping into both of them from the get go required two completely different take on controls. Had you actually tried it you would have noticed that. Once you finally get Project cars to somewhat resemble some realism with it's inputs, then I was able to finally start to have some resemblance. If you played Project cars in the way they intended from the factory and played Forza without changing anything then they would require two completely different takes.

I will miss the point if you change your stance after making the point. I do wonder what you think to Ialyrn's post regarding simulation steering, does he have thick glasses on too?

Why bother doing it, when you'll ignore anything that doesn't line up with your pre-conceived notions on the handling of a game you don't even have experience with?

Since you're so sure of the "problems of how the cars handle", surely you can expand on it. Hopefully, it'll amount to more than "isn't GT".

Just wanted to see how the handling looked compared to a real life video and Assetto Corsa, seen some FM6 clips already though. I don't see me ignoring things, rather my opinion is ignored because of simply not owning / playing FM6 (Only playing 'Demo' of game). Don't think owning will make much difference though, Alan Boiston has it and look how his opinion is brushed off.

When have I said it "isn't GT" as reason regarding problems of FM6 car handling?

 

[Ialyrn]

Do you not see the problem that all Forza Motorsport games so far that support 900 degrees steering with one to one mapping is broken as you say?

Where in my post did I say that 900° wheel mapping is broken? I don't think I said that now did I? So please don't put words into my posts that are not there to begin with.

The first video of the F458S (and countless others on my youtube channel, if you care to look), was done with my wheel set to 900°. Nothing broken about its mapping at all. In fact, I use the exact same amount of turn while driving in Assetto Corsa with my wheel at 900° as I do in Forza with my wheel set to 900°. The steering angle you are seeing in the telemetry screen is mapped to the full rotation of my wheel, so that tiny little movement that barely registers on the telemetry screen, is about a 90° turn of my wheel in most turns. More on the hairpins. In the video where I was driving with the controller, the increased movement in the steering section of the telemetry, is because the control pad emulates 180° of steering rotation. Far less than my wheel when set to 900°. Learn how these things work before you comment on them.

Why is it not broken in other simulation games?

You are suggesting that I was saying that steering is broken in Forza compared to other sim based racing games. This is not what I said. I said that "sim steering" is broken in Forza, and has been since FM4. And all it serves is to increase the "risk for reward" structure that T10 use in the Forza franchise.

You say the handling is unrealistically difficult in the games most realistic setting, what does that say to you about the physics engine then?

I will grant you, Sim steering is supposed to be the most realistic steering setting in Forza. But the sim steering option does not change the way the physics engine works. It is a controller option only, which is accessible in the assists menu. That option is only there to remove some of the hidden aids that are present on the default xbox controller, and to reduce/remove the effects of the "speed sensitive steering". The vast majority of these "aids" are not in effect when a wheel is used with the game, no matter the steering setting used. Again, please learn about these things before you comment on them.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Where in my post did I say that 900° wheel mapping is broken? I don't think I said that now did I? So please don't put words into my posts that are not there to begin with.

The first video of the F458S (and countless others on my youtube channel, if you care to look), was done with my wheel set to 900°. Nothing broken about its mapping at all. In fact, I use the exact same amount of turn while driving in Assetto Corsa with my wheel at 900° as I do in Forza with my wheel set to 900°. The steering angle you are seeing in the telemetry screen is mapped to the full rotation of my wheel, so that tiny little movement that barely registers on the telemetry screen, is about a 90° turn of my wheel in most turns. More on the hairpins. In the video where I was driving with the controller, the increased movement in the steering section of the telemetry, is because the control pad emulates 180° of steering rotation. Far less than my wheel when set to 900°. Learn how these things work before you comment on them.



You are suggesting that I was saying that steering is broken in Forza compared to other sim based racing games. This is not what I said. I said that "sim steering" is broken in Forza, and has been since FM4. And all it serves is to increase the "risk for reward" structure that T10 use in the Forza franchise.



I will grant you, Sim steering is supposed to be the most realistic steering setting in Forza. But the sim steering option does not change the way the physics engine works. It is a controller option only, which is accessible in the assists menu. That option is only there to remove some of the hidden aids that are present on the default xbox controller, and to reduce/remove the effects of the "speed sensitive steering". The vast majority of these "aids" are not in effect when a wheel is used with the game, no matter the steering setting used. Again, please learn about these things before you comment on them.

You did say "sim steering" is broken since FM4. You do realise what simulation steering is right? Maybe better if you learn about it before commenting.

 

[doctorrg]

You did say "sim steering" is broken since FM4. You do realise what simulation steering is right? Maybe better if you learn about it before commenting.

It's that little option in the assists, right? Where you can choose either "Normal" or "Simulation" as Steering option? And if you choose "Simulation" then steering isn't quite right, no?

 

[Ialyrn]

You did say "sim steering" is broken since FM4. You do realise what simulation steering is right? Maybe better if you learn about it before commenting.

Sim steering only removes hidden aids on the controller, it does not change the physics!!

Sim steering as an "ASSIST", is what is broken. Not The steering itself. It is only intended to be used on the default xbox controller anyway, as it is only there to remove/reduce the hidden aids that are in place for that controller. Again, this only serves the purpose of the whole "RISK FOR REWARD" setup that T10 use in the Forza franchise. The vast majority of those driver aids ARE NOT IN EFFECT ON A WHEEL!

 

[Tornado]

Any particular issue?

Rear engined weight transfer under power in GT5.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It's that little option in the assists, right? Where you can choose either "Normal" or "Simulation" as Steering option? And if you choose "Simulation" then steering isn't quite right, no?

It is that option, Simulation is how it should be but what is not right is car physics IMO.

Sim steering only removes hidden aids on the controller, it does not change the physics!!

Sim steering as an "ASSIST", is what is broken. Not The steering itself. It is only intended to be used on the default xbox controller anyway, as it is only there to remove/reduce the hidden aids that are in place for that controller. Again, this only serves the purpose of the whole "RISK FOR REWARD" setup that T10 use in the Forza franchise. The vast majority of those driver aids ARE NOT IN EFFECT ON A WHEEL!

Why do you not use it on wheel then as surely it shouldn't make a difference if it is only for controller? I agree it does not change the physics, haven't said anything different. So did you learn about Simulation and Normal steering difference yet?

 

[Ialyrn]

Why do you not use it on wheel then as surely it shouldn't make a difference if it is only for controller.

As I said above, it makes things "twitchy" on a wheel. This is probably because it is intended to work on a controller that emulates 180° of steering rotation. That isn't me saying that wheel mapping is broken, before you start that rubbish again. Doesnt matter if I use sim or normal steering in this regard, I can still use the full 900° my wheel offers. And that 900° still shows within the game with either setting.

I agree it does not change the physics, haven't said anything different.

You used what I had said about the Sim Steering assist as a way to "judge" the physics of Forza 6 from the outside, and took what I said out of context in the process. As I pointed out, sim steering does not change the physics of the game. It only removes hidden aids at are in place on the xbox controller. It seems as though you are finally getting that, so hopefully we can move on.

You say the handling is unrealistically difficult in the games most realistic setting, what does that say to you about the physics engine then?

So did you learn about Simulation and Normal steering difference yet?

I have explained to you the difference between Sim steering and Normal steering already. I will go over it one last time.

Sim steering removes/reduces hidden aids and their effects, which are in place on the default xbox controller. Normal steering has all that rubbish on, but only when the default Xbox controller is used. On a wheel, these aids are not present while using normal steering.


Anyway, drawing a line under this now; as I really cant be bothered to come back and repeat myself again.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, here is the lap of the Laferrari for you



And one of the P1 as well.



Wheel set to 900° with ABS/TCS/STM turned off.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

As I said above, it makes things "twitchy" on a wheel. This is probably because it is intended to work on a controller that emulates 180° of steering rotation. That isn't me saying that wheel mapping is broken, before you start that rubbish again. Doesnt matter if I use sim or normal steering in this regard, I can still use the full 900° my wheel offers. And that 900° still shows within the game with either setting.



You used what I had said about the Sim Steering assist as a way to "judge" the physics of Forza 6 from the outside, and took what I said out of context in the process. As I pointed out, sim steering does not change the physics of the game. It only removes hidden aids at are in place on the xbox controller. It seems as though you are finally getting that, so hopefully we can move on.






I have explained to you the difference between Sim steering and Normal steering already. I will go over it one last time.

Sim steering removes/reduces hidden aids and their effects, which are in place on the default xbox controller. Normal steering has all that rubbish on, but only when the default Xbox controller is used. On a wheel, these aids are not present while using normal steering.


Anyway, drawing a line under this now; as I really cant be bothered to come back and repeat myself again.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, here is the lap of the Laferrari for you



And one of the P1 as well.



Wheel set to 900° with ABS/TCS/STM turned off.

So you don't know what simulation steering does since FM4, hopefully you understand better going by what Dan Greenawalt said (Link):

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

 

[VXR]

The sim steering does not work well with the Xbox One controller for many, but that is not a physics problem, but a physical interface problem. The cars don't feel dumbed down on normal steering, either. If anything, it feels more natural and you can exploit the depth of the physics model far more than if you were using sim steering.

 

[Ialyrn]

So you don't know what simulation steering does since FM4, hopefully you understand better going by what Dan Greenawalt said

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

Which is exactly the same as what I was saying, so instead of going into detail with my replay - http://www.oed.com/ as you obviously need help comprehending what I am saying!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Which is exactly the same as what I was saying, so instead of going into detail with my replay - http://www.oed.com/ as you obviously need help comprehending what I am saying!

So you have been saying sim steering is broken but then saying 1:1 900 degree steering with wheel is not broken, it is difficult to comprehend if you contradict yourself.

 

[Ialyrn]

So you have been saying sim steering is broken but then saying 1:1 900 degree steering with wheel is not broken, it is difficult to comprehend if you contradict yourself.

Are you really this dense, or are you just trolling?

Sim steering as an assist is broken. It is there ONLY to remove the aids that are in place on the default xbox one controller. This isn't needed on a wheel, because:

There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller

The main three main things that Sim Steering changes for the default xbox one controller, is the removal of a counter steering assist. Which helps you to correct a slide. The reduction of speed sensitive steering, and an artificial increase to the steering speed. Which means that:

initial turn-in is direct and linear

.

Again, and say it with me. Sim steering as an assist, is intended for use by xbox one gamepad users. As the aids that the option removes, are not present on the wheel!

All it does with regards to the wheel, is making the steering extremely twitchy at the wheel center. I am not talking about the first 90° here, I am talking about the first 5° to 10°. Which makes turn in unrealistically hard on a wheel. Again, I am not saying that the WHEEL MAPPING IS BROKEN, as the full 900° is usable. Just something is going on in the first 5° to 10°, which is at the wheel center. This is why I say "Sim steering is broken", as it isn't a usable assist on a wheel. Which means that wheel users can not use it, as it makes the wheels center hyper sensitive. As it is intended to make "initial turn-in is direct and linear", on the default Xbox controller. Wheel users, such as myself, DO NOT NEED THIS. As our steering is already "DIRECT AND LINEAR" while using "NORMAL STEERING", as the hidden controller aids are ONLY IN EFFECT FOR THE DEFAULT XBOX CONTROLLER. Sim steering should have zero effect on a racing wheel at all, it certainly shouldn't make it hyper sensative at the center. But it does. I dont know what to tell you, but the mapping itself is fine. I have checked, multiple times. Because the mapping of my physical wheel to that of in game, was my first thought when using a wheel back in FM4; when sim steering first appeared as an option.