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Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 5' started by King1982, Sep 28, 2013.
Looks the same with the real one.
No, I think Minty's video shows a clear disconnect between the physics and graphics engine. But its also important to note many driving simulations switch physics around 5mph (Brain Beckmen) to avoid division by 0 (and thus, protect the universe).
Hmm...there are now disconnects in FM5 physics? Not liking what I'm reading...
Can't view the vids so I'll leave it up to you good FM5 owners to comment.
I doubt any simulation is 100% connected to the visuals. The video shows the car turning sharper than the wheels would allow, but as it gets above around 5mph it appears accurate (to me at least).
One of the things that always impressed me about Forza is watching how the rubber marks correlates with the friction, camber, and weight transfer. There's definitely a strong connection between the graphics and physics engine. For instance, the video also shows the drive shafts rotating based on the speed of the wheels. But something funky happens in that video at very low speeds.
Kings video show a real version of the car at high speeds, and it also appears to be turning more than the wheels should allow, but in this case its obviously just an illusion.
Hmm... maybe it has to do with those pesky hidden assists on the controller and speed sensitive steering. Just taking shots in the dark here.
I hope T10 gets rid of those stupid features for good. They have no place in a racing game or driving simulator.
I LOVE how GA's cars turn properly because the wheels actually TURN as you apply more input!
Well to be honest, GA is the true definition of a "simcade," so the steering is going to be easy because of that. In Forza and IRL, you can't just go 100+ mph and turn on a dime, that just can't happen.
This doesn't make any sense, what would hidden assists have to do with how the physics engine connect the graphics. All these people talk about hidden assists with the controller, but no one can define what they do or confirm their existence. You cannot use replays, because of the compression the cars snap to place but that has NOTHING to do with assists.
It is my belief in simulation steering all the assists consist of is speed sensitive steering (you cant turn the wheel 180 degrees at 180mph), filters/dampeners ( to get rid of jerky and sudden movements.)
GA.. Grid autosport? Because if that's what you meant, I hate to tell you that games physics is far far from anything trying to be realistic. It has a physics engine, but that's it.
I think I might have misunderstood some of the previous posts.
Off topic: FM has hidden assists on a controller where your driver auto corrects and compensates when going into and coming out of turns, depending on your speed and current gear.
Switching to sim steering makes countersteering behavior erratic, as the wheel suddenly becomes lose and you have COMPLETE freedom of movement as long as your're sliding. Probable reason why a lot of folks have termed it drift mode or driving on ice.
Speed sensitive steering is a nuisance at best, as it makes driving far too easy on a controller.
I'm not sure if you wheel users have complete freedom of movement at higher speeds.
Yes, it can't just happen, but you can turn the wheel further if you want to, unlike Forza.
Forza decides how much you get to steer, according to your speed and gear.
Speedster, in forza with a wheel. If you turn the wheel too far and fast at speed, the ffb goes light as the front tires lose grip. It is a very similar effect to what happens in real life, and that is using normal steering within forza. The issue with a lot of steering input at speed, is the speed of the car increases the weight of the car due to its momentum. This weight overrides the front tires ability to grip, when steering is applied at more than those tires can take. This is why the cars will understeer under that circumstance, and the same thing happens in the real world. Forza simulates a cars weight, and it simulates what the tires are capable off.
Nearly all racing games that are designed with a gamepad and wheel in mind, have some form of speed sensitive steering for the gamepad. I will tell you right now, that Project cars and Assetto Corsa have speed sensitive steering also. In those 2 games, it is fully adjustable however. That is 2 full on simulation games, that have speed sensitive steering!! But lets not forget here, that Forza is designed for use on a gaming console. This means that the vast majority of Forza players, will be on a gamepad, and not a wheel. And the majority of Forza gamers, will just want a 100% pick up and play experience; and not want to change a million settings.
Also, Grid autosport, and as much as I like it; doesn't even take into account a 900DOR wheel properly. Hell, I went drifting in that game, and it only used 270DOR at most; and that is with 900DOR set in the Thrustmaster Driver software. Grid Autosport is NO comparison to forza 5 at all in terms of handling physics, I own both games.
I'll try to capture this with the friction telemetry.
As far as speed sensitive steering, real cars naturally become harder to turn at speed. Newer cars even go beyond that and add more speed sensitive steering. All those forces cannot be felt with a small joystick, nor do you have the fidelity in the half inch of joystick movement that you enjoy in a 900 degree steering wheel. Speed sensitive steering is absolutely needed at 180mph with a tiny joystick. Even the slightest tap would send the car spinning.
Even Iracing has a way to limit the range of steering on a joystick . I've played it with a pad for a bit and its fun but very hard.
@SlyNine I have nothing against speed sensitive steering, but let's not take into account only speeds of 100+ mph or 180+ mph, but also 40+ or 60+ mph...
IRL, you can easily turn the wheel past 90 degs at those speeds, whereas Forza allows you to turn it (at the same speeds) maybe 20 to 30 degs (not referring to the wheel animation for reference but actual angle). This dumbs down the driving for me and makes it far too straight forward.
I've lost it good myself a few times at high speed driving as a result of turning the wheel too much IRL, in which case, the car either understeers, oversteers or if you're really stupid and have a bad center of gravity - flip over.
Of course steering wheels get stiff in real life as you drive faster. Power steering and electronic steering is a standard feature in most cars nowadays, and even then having so little steering freedom at lower speeds is unheard of. It's no surprise you don't see Forza cars leaning and rolling properly on their suspension through sharp corners - the wheels don't turn properly and lack bite.
I can understand the need to have speed sensitive steering kick in at relatively higher "racing" speeds, but trying to turn the wheels practically ALL the way during a hair pin (classic example: Suzuka, Hockenheim and Tsukuba hairpin) is a driver preference and you SHOULD be able to do it if you want. Even at those speeds the game forces you to slow down even further and downshift to first gear to get full steering! Sorry.. but that's just stupid, does NOT work like that IRL.
Feedback I've gotten from Forza wheel users is very positive; they say it is right where it should be, spot on and 900 deg feels very realistic for the most part. However, we controller users get the short end. There should be a setting to adjust SSS or even turn it off. I also don't remember my hands auto-correcting the wheel angle for me on corner entry and exit IRL , which happens to be another steering nuisance in Forza.
This is not to bash Forza's physics, they are still quite brilliant. The steering mechanics needs fixing. There have been legitimate complaints on the official forum as well.
I'm practically jamming the stick all the way on sharp corners and my car doesn't exhibit the proper oversteer/understeer behaviour, thanks to this "speed sensitive limit" on controller steering.
* I find this not to be the case unfortunately, on a controller. The front wheels feel like they're on ice at times.
* A setting to adjust speed sensitive steering doesn't mean changing a million settings I'm sure!
* My discussion is squarely focused on steering mechanics. Both games have different steering mechanics, and physics have nothing to do with it. It's all in the code, and I prefer Codies version of steering; it gives you better control over your car. Forza's cars simply miss the apex unless your PERFECT at taking it the right speed and gear. Kind of defeats the purpose of pushing your car over the edge and testing it's limits.
Try to recall those stars in a reasonably priced car segment on Top Gear. Even The Stig gives generous steering input around those sharp turns on FWD cars. You don't see the same response from the front wheels in Forza. They feel numb.. the ONLY way to get the front wheels to TURN more is reducing speed further and downshifting. *face palm*
I agree, we should be able to customize our controls more. Otho I've seldom had trouble hitting 100% peak friction. In fact I can go quite abit above peak most of the time at speed and do not agree with the cars feeling like they are on ice or anything like that.
^^ @SlyNine Your deadzone settings? Steering set to normal or sim? <-- Though I don't think that should make much of a difference. I could swear though cars have better turn in when set to normal. Or it could be psychological. Don't like how steering suddenly feels loose and twitchy when going into opposite lock on sim steering.
I use both sim and normal, if I have to much trouble dealing with a cars tendency to oversteer I might go normal. Deadzones are set to 0 and 100 respectively. I'm lousy at drifting, but haven't tried it with normal steering. I just cant seem to catch the car at the right time.
I've never noticed lowering gears changes the amount of turning available, what I have noticed is the weight transfer (from greater engine breaking) transfers more weight to the front wheels reducing understeer. But I guess both factors could be coming in to play.
Yeap, those are my settings too.
Maybe they have improved the control in F5 a lot.. I've read in reviews how the front tires have more bite.
Though I've also read up some people complaining how the sticks and triggers don't offer much range of motion. Dat true?
Not once you set the deadzones properly.
What'chu on about? My deads are always at zero inside, max outside. Gives you complete control. More precise.
Then you'll have no problem with FM5.
Compared to a wheel, not as much. But if you're hitting 100%+ friction you wont get more turning force. If you decide to try it, bring up the telemetry and let that tell you if you're being limited. there are seldom times where I have to jab the stick all the way over to reach that. But I felt the same about FM4 so I'm not sure you'll be happy with what I'm happy with.
Thrustmaster TX wheel Ariel Atom 500 V8 at Nurburgring Grand Prix - can you believe it? Aero can now be repair in pit stop :mrgreen:
More details under vid.
Nostalgia race Volkswagen Beetle at Prague, great combo, funny car and best in FM5 track.
Lamborghini Diablo SC at rainy Batrhurst :mrgreen:
Lexus LFA at Yas Marina driven with Thrustmaster TX wheel
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale at refresh Sebring
at 03:00 sound bug can be spotted, looking rear effects with strange sound (same for all cars)
Last time i played on consol was some month ago. Its really a challenge to get used to the speed sensitive steering Forza uses for the pad. But the Karussell with the wrong banking is way harder to drive through without issues. So its isnt an really clean lap ive done ^^^
Except the Karussell Turn10 has done the best looking Version out there imo.
Damn, what was that?
What do you mean..?
Forza 5 [HD] ★ Audi R18 e-tron quattro @ Le Mans Circuit de la Sarthe
Forza 5 | Holden Commodore VF @ Mount Panorama Bathurst
I really hope they fix that sound in FM6.
Yep, serves him right
@GT'S BiG FaN
I was in an A class room yesterday in my very big, very fast AMC Javelin. Some crazy guy in a Caterham, of all things, tried to ram me off the track
It was like a butterfly trying to muscle a buffalo. He just went ping off the side of me and crashed into oblivion. How I laughed