Forza Motorsport 5 |OT| Where dreams are Realised

  • Thread starter phillgt2002
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PzR Slim
So do you think that car manufacturers are selling incomplete cars by not including every available option on every car?
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I believe your comparison of software with hardware to be not legit . It is something entirely different.
It's like comparing Bmw and Toyota
To google. An available option in a car is comparable to a additional controller or kinect ( which was a option and isn't now) but not to a few additional car in a game. Sure there is a lot of work in producing them but they can easily be duplicated unlike the options in a car. If you give each of your cars alcantara seats it is going to be costly for the manufacturer. I just believe that a game should be released in the best possible state at launch day. I like dlc if it's produced after that and i am buying games since 25 years. And if we as customers don 't fight against this new policy we are the ones who are going to pay more in the future .
And this has nothing to do with Microsoft vs Sony. If it's going to work for Microsoft any software company will use it. It's about us vs the game companies.
 
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"Don't like it don't buy" it is just as much of a meaningless non-argument here as it is in the GT5 forum. You might as well just say "shut up" because it's obvious that's what you're trying to convey.

PzR Slim
But that's what a car manufacturer does with rear parking sensors for example. Each car they sell has the potential to have rear parking sensors fitted but they choose not to unless you pay them extra money. T10 have cars ready to use in game but won't give you them unless you pay them more money. What is different about the two?
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PzR Slim
So do you think that car manufacturers are selling incomplete cars by not including every available option on every car?
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When you pay for the car in real life, the price doesn't include you paying for the parking sensors but they just didn't put them in it.
 
PzR Slim
What is everyone's problem with DLC? Do you complain when your new car doesn't come with all the optional extras at the price of the standard model? DLC is no different to options on new cars. No one forces you to buy it.
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^^^ this
 
You guy needs to get away from thinking software is different to hardware. It isn't. It's a product just like every other product. And a software developer can choose to sell it in anyway they want. Every business exists to maximise their profits. That's what their shareholders expect.

And Tornado, I'm not telling anyone to shut up. When you buy FM5 it doesn't include you paying for the DLC but they just didn't put it in. How is that sentence any different from your final sentence? It isn't, it's exactly the same.

A car manufacturer says we'll give you this car for this price, if you want extras it will cost you this much. T10 have said we'll give you this piece of software for this price, if you want extras it will cost this much. There is zero difference between the two. One is selling bits of metal, plastic and rubber, the other is selling one's and zero's.
 
PzR Slim
You guy needs to get away from thinking software is different to hardware. It isn't. It's a product just like every other product. And a software developer can choose to sell it in anyway they want. Every business exists to maximise their profits. That's what their shareholders expect.
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As long as we don't have startrek tech it's very different. To add 10 cars to a video game, you need programmers. That's it. To add a option like a paint to a car, you need the paint and people who actually spray it on the car. And it's maybe the easiest option to add on a car. You are too smart that I have to tell you the differences. . Sure every business exist to generate profit. But in this case we are not on the side of the shareholders , we are the customers and we can vote with our wallets. We can buy smart. If you buy a car , you can buy it smart, you will get the option for free. Well it's almost like in your comparison. :) Anyone I knows who buys a new car, gets a considerable discount.
 
azrael1965
As long as we don't have startrek tech it's very different. To add 10 cars to a video game, you need programmers. That's it. To add a option like a paint to a car, you need the paint and people who actually spray it on the car. And it's maybe the easiest option to add on a car. You are too smart that I have to tell you the differences. . Sure every business exist to generate profit. But in this case we are not on the side of the shareholders , we are the customers and we can vote with our wallets. We can buy smart. If you buy a car , you can buy it smart, you will get the option for free. Well it's almost like in your comparison. :) Anyone I knows who buys a new car, gets a considerable discount.
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There is no difference between the two situations. You might not like it but then again you're free to make the choice and not buy it.
 
PzR Slim
You guy needs to get away from thinking software is different to hardware. It isn't.
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What component cost is there for virtual products? Who is paid that little extra to install it? In a car the manufacturer has to pay for parts for the parking sensors and the heated seats and the alloy wheels and the metallic paint and the 12 speaker audio system, and pay for someone to install it (among other things); so when someone doesn't want it they pay less because the manufacturer doesn't need to buy them or pay someone to put them in. They just need to pay for the car in its base form. The only additional cost for software is the time taken to create it, which is no different from any of the other cars that were developed for the game at the same time as this one, except they chose this one (and who knows how many others) to be held back so you can pay extra for it the day the game comes out. Forza 4's DLC certainly wasn't like that, even with all the hollering about the Porsche pack. In this case, you're paying for it anyway because it's already done well before the game is done, but you don't get it because they want you to pay a bit extra anyway. And while Horizon was even worse about it, when that was one of the main sticking points about that game I don't see how it is surprising that people are taking issue with how the main game is doing the same thing.

PzR Slim
When you buy FM5 it doesn't include you paying for the DLC but they just didn't put it in.
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Is the car finished now? Obviously. Does that mean they are holding it back to charge extra for it, even though it is finished now? Yes. Then you're paying for that one car already since it was completed while the game itself was under development, but they want you to pay extra for it anyway. That's not "extra" content, and I'm struggling to understand how anyone couldn't see why people have a serious issue with that since they are no different from unlock codes when this is hardly the first game the criticism has been leveled at. You say it's justified because every business exists to maximise their profit, so why include anything when you can get away with releasing the game and charging extra later for things you already made?


PzR Slim
And Tornado, I'm not telling anyone to shut up.
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"Don't like it don't buy it" contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation besides telling people to stop talking about it. I don't like it. I'm not going to buy it. In fact, Microsoft milking people that badly has notably put me off the game entirely until I see the full car list tomorrow to see what is there. That still doesn't take away from the fact that the DLC costs are dramatically higher than they were for the previous game; and the DLC itself is considerably more shady in its implementation since now they aren't even pretending that the DLC for the game wasn't held back to monetize it afterwards.
 
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Tornado
What component cost is there for virtual products? Who is paid that little extra to install it? In a car the manufacturer has to pay for parts for the parking sensors and the heated seats and the alloy wheels and the metallic paint and the 12 speaker audio system, and pay for someone to install it (among other things); so when someone doesn't want it they pay less because the manufacturer doesn't need to buy them or pay someone to put them in. They just need to pay for the car in its base form. The only additional cost for software is the time taken to create it, which is no different from any of the other cars that were developed for the game at the same time as this one, except they chose this one (and who knows how many others) to be held back so you can pay extra for it the day the game comes out. Forza 4's DLC certainly wasn't like that, even with all the hollering about the Porsche pack. In this case, you're paying for it anyway because it's already done well before the game is done, but you don't get it because they want you to pay a bit extra anyway. And while Horizon was even worse about it, when that was one of the main sticking points about that game I don't see how it is surprising that people are taking issue with how the main game is doing the same thing.



Is the car finished now? Obviously. Does that mean they are holding it back to charge extra for it, even though it is finished now? Yes. Then you're paying for that one car already since it was completed while the game itself was under development, but they want you to pay extra for it anyway. That's not "extra" content, and I'm struggling to understand how anyone couldn't see why people have a serious issue with that since they are no different from unlock codes. You say it's justified because every business exists to maximise their profit, so why include anything when you can get away with releasing the game and charging extra later for things you already made?




"Don't like it don't buy it" contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation besides telling people to stop talking about it. I don't like it. I'm not going to buy it. In fact, Microsoft milking people that badly has notably put me off the game entirely until I see the full car list tomorrow to see what is there. That still doesn't take away from the fact that the DLC costs are dramatically higher than they were for the previous game; and the DLC itself is considerably more shady in its implementation since now they aren't even pretending that the DLC for the game wasn't held back to monetize it afterwards.
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However you try and butter it up there is no difference. Each sells a product, one metal, plastic and rubber, the more metal, plastic and rubber you want the more you have to pay, the other sells one's and zero's, the more one's and zero's you want the more you have to pay.

In your world taken to the nth degree a software company would wait until the end of a game series and sell the whole price of the series for the price of one game right? So what T10 should have done was decided how many FM's they were going to make, make them all and then sell all versions for the price of one game?

I am not telling people to shut up. I'm saying that people are entitled to be unhappy, they are also free not to buy the product if they don't perceive the value in it. And that's what this is all about, people not thinking that the extra cost is worth it. Which is what we all need to weigh up in every purchase we make. This is no different from anything else. So shout and scream all you like, be as upset as you like but don't try an dress it up as anything else, it's a straight forward financial decision.
 
PzR Slim
Each sells a product, one metal, plastic and rubber, the more metal, plastic and rubber you want the more you have to pay, the other sells one's and zero's, the more one's and zero's you want the more you have to pay.
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You can create one's and zero's out of nothing, but you can't do it with one metal, plastic and rubber!
Just as simple as that.
 
BYUV6oECAAAE_N1.jpg:large


Am I the only one who finds this repulsive?
 
Dear christ. It's like they looked at GT6's bland Anniversary liveries and went...'oh boy, I've got a great idea!' here's a look at the designer crew.

chav1.jpg
 
The black goes too far down the nose [/nit-picking]

I'm with Tornado on this. I bought every single bit of DLC for FM4, including the Porsche pack, and had no qualms with it; I felt like I got my money's worth, and a lot of those cars have been used quite a lot (while only a few of them were obviously touch-ups of existing vehicles in the game). FH changed that; it was largely FM4 carryovers, or very slightly changed versions of cars in the game (typically, chopping the roof off).

FM4's season pass was $30. FM5's is $50. Hopefully, they allow us to buy it at any point, not only in the beginning, because I fully plan on sitting and waiting to see how the DLC strategy plays out for this, after FH has made me question their philosophy. What's really unfortunate to me is that they're missing out on a ton of goodwill from their fanbase by not making the Ferrari a day-one free DLC. Sure, they'd have lost potential income, but as we've already seen, this announcement has scared some people off of the game completely. Was that really better?

Again, bring on the full car list, but there's now a massive asterisk hanging over it.
 
SlipZtrEm
The black goes too far down the nose [/nit-picking]

I'm with Tornado on this. I bought every single bit of DLC for FM4, including the Porsche pack, and had no qualms with it; I felt like I got my money's worth, and a lot of those cars have been used quite a lot (while only a few of them were obviously touch-ups of existing vehicles in the game). FH changed that; it was largely FM4 carryovers, or very slightly changed versions of cars in the game (typically, chopping the roof off).

FM4's season pass was $30. FM5's is $50. Hopefully, they allow us to buy it at any point, not only in the beginning, because I fully plan on sitting and waiting to see how the DLC strategy plays out for this, after FH has made me question their philosophy. What's really unfortunate to me is that they're missing out on a ton of goodwill from their fanbase by not making the Ferrari a day-one free DLC. Sure, they'd have lost potential income, but as we've already seen, this announcement has scared some people off of the game completely. Was that really better?

Again, bring on the full car list, but there's now a massive asterisk hanging over it.
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Indeed. I also bought some DLC packs in FM4 as well, because I found them interesting and new to play around with. However, in FH I can't even begin to understand what the hell just happened in that one. I was really annoyed with the carry-overs and the copied ones as you mention, roofs taken off. So I ended up just buying one of the cars from the packs, which were new.

It's awesome that the LaFerrari is going to be in the game, but I find the idea to have it as DLC to be the stupidest idea ever, and what's funny it even looks finished... I'm sorry, but that's honestly just dumn and the season pass's price doesn't help matters.
 
Despite disliking their DLC policy I am still going to buy the XO and FM5 and I also plan to buy the Nürburgring DLC. After all I have high hopes that it might become the most accurate and best Nordschleife ever. But I will stay away from the LaFerrari and the carpack.
 
azrael1965
You can create one's and zero's out of nothing, but you can't do it with one metal, plastic and rubber!
Just as simple as that.
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No, not even close. A physical product may have additional costs, but it's not like you're only paying for the cost of raw materials.
 
TokoTurismo
Indeed. I also bought some DLC packs in FM4 as well, because I found them interesting and new to play around with. However, in FH I can't even begin to understand what the hell just happened in that one. I was really annoyed with the carry-overs and the copied ones as you mention, roofs taken off. So I ended up just buying one of the cars from the packs, which were new.

It's awesome that the LaFerrari is going to be in the game, but I find the idea to have it as DLC to be the stupidest idea ever, and what's funny it even looks finished... I'm sorry, but that's honestly just dumn and the season pass's price doesn't help matters.
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Just thought about this: playing devil's advocate of course, we could assume the Ferrari isn't quite complete yet. Visually, maybe, but perhaps the values for the physics are still being nailed down. Perhaps the modeling under the hood still needs work. There could be reasons for it not being included on the disc, as that obviously went gold a while ago if they're having people play the full version this week.

Still doesn't mean they need to charge for it on Day One, though.
 
I'm just going to echo a lot of what has already been said: after the Horizon fiasco and it's horrible DLC portfolio I'm not at all interested in buying a Car Pass on day one - fool me once, but never twice. I cannot understand what the thought process going into this could have possibly been; you're paying $499.99 for a new console before taxes, $59.99 (or even $79.99 for the LCE) for the game before taxes, and now there's the Car Pass which, if you're so inclined, adds an additional $49.99 on top of all of that which comes to a grand total of $609.97 or $629.97, and that's before factoring in any additional expenses such as controllers or other games.

Of course you could argue the console will eventually pay for itself over the long run but there's no denying that's a tough pill to swallow.

There's no doubt I'm going to sit idly by and see how the DLC plays out this time around, and it already seems to be off to a bad start by doing the same thing Horizon did with the Apollo Enraged and the other Day 1 DLC exclusives.

EDIT: And of course right when I say that, I find out the damn Lotus E21 is in. :lol:
 
SlipZtrEm
Just thought about this: playing devil's advocate of course, we could assume the Ferrari isn't quite complete yet. Visually, maybe, but perhaps the values for the physics are still being nailed down. Perhaps the modeling under the hood still needs work. There could be reasons for it not being included on the disc, as that obviously went gold a while ago if they're having people play the full version this week.

Still doesn't mean they need to charge for it on Day One, though.
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Yeah. That could be the reason it seems.
 
HighSeasHoMastr
So basically, "I can't/won't/don't want to refute your post, so let me take a cheap ad homonim shot at you instead."

👎 I thought you were above that Toronado.
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I take it you didn't actually read the conversation. I already refuted it before he even responded. I gave a detailed explanation why the two concepts aren't the same thing (and azrael1965 was attempting the same); and broke down exactly why the issue with FM5's DLC doesn't apply to the argument he's trying to force it to fit (and why people are so against the concept in general as Microsoft has announced it after previous games in the series). He blew me off by basically just saying nothing more than "no you're still wrong" and repeated basically the same thing he already said, deliberately ignoring the points I made in the process, meaning at that point I ceased to take his point seriously.



So I guess I'm sorry you feel that way.
 
Tornado
I take it you didn't actually read the conversation.
(Words)
So I guess I'm sorry you feel that way.
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I actually read the whole thing, and had been enjoying seeing both sides of it. I didn't really feel like your last post on the matter really responded to all of his points, but if you did then it's whatever, no one forces you to respond. Which begs the question, if you weren't going to respond to his points, why respond at all...? All it does is make you look petty.

I have some more relevant feelings on the topic at hand, but I don't want to spend three years typing them on my phone and I don't have the energy to get to a computer right now, so I will post some actual points later. Suffice it to say I fall somewhere between the two extremes.

I do feel like a lot of people in this debate are remarkably well informed about the inner workings of Turn 10 though, since they can unequivocally say what has been worked on when, and what is finished when the game goes gold vs what is finished when the game's street date arrives... Cause, you know, those are the same thing right?



And I'm glad you're sorry :lol: 👍 as long as you apologize, I think my precious sensibilities could remain intact.
 

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