Forza Motorsport 7: Demo Discussion

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 7' started by PJTierney, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. yabiggoose

    yabiggoose

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    After playing the demo it has reinforced for me to not preorder.

    This is the first Forza title (Motorsport or Horizon) since Forza Motorsport 2 that I won't be preordering. Not impressed with what I've seen.
     
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  2. HuskyGT

    HuskyGT

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    I am thankfully getting flawless performance on my PC. Much better than FH3 at higher settings, considering I have the dreadful combo of an i5/1070. The only area where I am finding heavy stutter and micro-freezing is in the menu. I really hope this is fixed in the full version, as I am kind of worried. Otherwise, this game aims to be a masterpiece. The demo surely does very little justice, considering all the content that awaits. Can't wait to play yet another sequel to Gran Turismo 2, brought by T10 ;D

    Ultimate Edition pre-ordered two days ago. Five more to go :D
     
  3. prousonhairy

    prousonhairy Premium

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    I haven't played the demo, I ordered the ultimate edition last week though. Waiting to download. Pretty pumped up. I haven't played a racing game in 2-3 months, purposely avoiding them until FM7. I won't get to play much until next Sunday though, due to work.
     
  4. ClydeYellow

    ClydeYellow

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    I mean, I'll be the first to say that Forza Motorsport doesn't provide a 100% realistic experience and isn't in any way on the level of games such as Assetto Corsa or iRacing, but physics-wise, it's probably one of the best simulators out there - with pCars lagging behind it quite considerably. The fact that it's "dumbed down" (and so is FH3, which only becomes a full-on "arcade" when you factor in the different surfaces' grip coefficient) is another matter entirely. They could've gone the SMS route and "kicked it up" - they sorta-tried it with FM5, which sucked.

    You're calling VIR, Brands Hatch and Lime Rock "lesser known tracks"... But for any motorsport nut, they're not. And while I'm quite happy with the current selection of tracks, I can understand why some people may not (although I'd also like to know what were they expecting - truth is, no game currently on the market features a wide selection of "indie" tracks that haven't been modded in, with the best probably being pCars 2 that only has the UK circuits owned by MSV and Knockhill over its competitors).
     
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  5. RazorSharkz

    RazorSharkz

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    Brands Hatch is probably only behind Laguna Seca for the prize of being in every game ever. I would hardly call it lesser known, also it hosted Formula One during many of it's best years. VIR and Lime Rock I imagine are lesser know outside the states, but being from the states I wouldn't know.
     
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  6. breyzipp

    breyzipp

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    The crew 2 might be good as well. I downloaded the first when it was free on Xbox gold, didn't play it much but it sure has potential. Boats and planes can be interesting
     
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  7. Jimmy_Pop

    Jimmy_Pop

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    I played the first one, but after the 17ish hour campaign was over, I didn't have any interest in playing. It was fun for a time though.
     
  8. FoRiZon

    FoRiZon

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    Boo also for providing interesting location, then wasting it by not letting us drive on the dunes.

    MINI Dakar is crying now.
     
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  9. VXR

    VXR

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    Wow, I didn't realise my disappointment in a franchise I've invested the best part of £1000 in since 2005 meant I was merely whining. People evolve, Horizon happened and it was fun and new, but Motorsports has kinda stood still. That's OK, I'd still sing it's praises over PCars and AC as to me, they don't feel great on a control pad. Doesn't mean I need to buy it if I feel it's not going where I want it to and saying so isn't whining.
     
  10. bf3

    bf3

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    Putting FM on same line with NFS just shows how some just cant live without cheappo baits,and we know who it is ;)
    After playing extensively FM7 Demo and pc2 with both wheel and pad i can tell my personal observation-physics on FM is much better than on pc2 (which i got for free as i was not going to buy that game),all T10 need is to find that balance with sumulation option and normal-make simulation proper simulation for those who want it,and leave normal for mortals and coming new players,so they wont cry over some 700hp car spinning at every corner.
    I had no problem driving new Porsche on default settings with G29-sure it can be much better and i believe patches will correct it,as for pad - there is nothing wrong and as usual T10 there is king.
    If T10 stop using handbrake regarding they physics in FM,it can easily be top sim,but why they need to - there are enough proper sims - AC,iRacing,rFactor etc. who are heads above pc2-they have own niche and probably now alone there since GT as we knew it is gone,at least for now.

    Im waiting on FM7 release impatiently,i played pc2 and i just cant see anything in it,if i pick any proper sim it would be AC.
    Nothing wrong if people not buying one game or another over some missing cars/tracks/features - impossible to get all and please everyone,but as a simcade FM is perfect game.
    Oh - and there is no racing game who can beat FM7 in visuals and graphics-its just that stunning.Will be some photos from FM7 with those 700+ cars ;) some games barely have 1/4th cars what FM7 has :D
     
  11. TheCrazySwede

    TheCrazySwede

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    Oh boy - lots of new replies on here since the last time I checked! I see a lot of concerns regarding the 'physics' in Forza, how the game handles with a wheel and, if not mistaken, handling comparisons with Nintendo's Mario Kart series? Lots of topics to dive into! Apologies for those who don’t like long and informative posts!


    For those still curious about the way the Porsche 911 GT2 RS handles, please check out my earlier post about the topic! :)


    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...7-demo-discussion.358726/page-9#post-11950000


    Alright, so let’s get into the physics!


    The physics engine in Forza is very complex. Those 0-60, 0-100, 100-0 etc., benchmarks in the tuning menu are all done in-engine. Turn 10 gets the car data, mostly CAD data straight from the manufacturers, combines it with their tire data, etc., and lets the physics engine crunch the numbers. The fact that the data is so close and in most cases near identical to their real life counterparts suggests that the physics in Forza are very accurate. As someone who has worked closely with Turn 10 Studios using my real life experience as a driver, I can assure you that T10 puts a lot of time and effort into making sure the suspension of cars behave accordingly, the differentials, etc. But in real life, we have lots and lots of numbers in the equation – and all those numbers take up resources. Managing those resources is the key to delivering realism. If you consider racing games in terms of physics, they’re all really far behind compared to something like BeamNG that concentrates solely on physics simulation. But unless you have a super computer sitting at home, you’re not going to be crunching those numbers with 30 cars on the grid all rendered in 4K and running at 60FPS. Knowing where to take shortcuts is key in delivering the illusion of realism – and that’s all these games set out to do. So if you’re more interested in physics, then don’t play any of these games and go for something more concentrated on physics simulation.


    Now, if you consider the origins of Forza Motorsport, you'll be foolish to discredit its ambition in taking on the driving game giant we all know and love. FM was a much, much different game back then. The game concentrated on one aspect and one aspect only - the racing. It wasn't about 'Forzavista' cars, celebrity cameos or artistic expressions. It was, like its name suggests, about Motorsport. But then something rather interesting happen - the competition changed. Gran Turismo was no longer about Motorsport, either. It became a game about collecting cars with nothing in the game really encouraging any aspect of Motorsport with its robotic AI, it's really questionable vehicle handling and tire data, and its odd menu design. GT2 had "GO RACE" written in bold on its main menu - that's a long ways from the jazz playing showrooms of GT5 and GT6.


    Forza Motorsport, still chasing its rival’s tail, had an opportunity to branch out. Still catering towards a niche market and one that was arguably even non-existent at the time: the console sim racing market. At the time, if you wanted to get serious about racing, you'd play something like GTR/GTR2 or rFactor on PC. If you told someone you're a sim racer as you powered up your Playstation, you'd most likely receive some laughs. As Forza Motorsport grew in popularity, Microsoft saw its potential as a profitable brand and allowed Turn 10 to be the spearhead of their console division, much like how Naughty Dog is for Sony. But now, Forza was no longer on the same set of tracks as Gran Turismo, so it set out to make its own. Forza is all about expression. Made an awesome tune? Share it! Set an awesome lap time for others to beat? Share it! Don't like the paint on your car? Draw on it....and then share it! Want to sell your car? Auction it! Want to form your own crew? Here, have this garage all for yourselves! This focus on expression had never really been executed in a racing title with this level of ambition ever before - and still hasn't been beat to this day. Nobody does what Forza does better than the way Turn 10 does it - and suddenly, you have games like Gran Turismo playing catch up. That's really, really impressive in a business sense and it's a huge move by both Turn 10 and Microsoft.


    This move opened Forza up to a very, very wide audience. Considering how unpopular the XBox is outside of North America, Forza Motorsport started doing extremely well for itself as a console exclusive. But hardcore sim racers are not popular. These titles, again, are for a niche market. Even Slightly Mad Studios had to make changes to how the cars behave with a game controller for the launch of pCars 2. If you think this move was done in accordance with their goal of delivering a complex sim racer, then you'd be mistaken. It's about being able to deliver the game to a wide audience - and Forza does this better than anyone. Remember that developers have access to the user data: X amount of players play with a controller and Y amount of players use a wheel. If group X is substantially larger than group Y, then it would make sense to cater the experience more towards them. You can even play FM7 with Guitar Hero accessories. Meanwhile, try playing rFactor with a controller and see how well it does. This is the same reason why SMS put so much time into making the controller easier to play with in pCars 2. Ian Bell even mentioned that throughout pCars 2’s development, he played every build with just a controller and didn’t even touch a wheel. This is a very anti-sim racing move, but it’s very pro-consumer.


    The game that really combined my love for gaming and cars was Gran Turismo. There really wasn’t anything like it at the time. It really turned car lovers into gamers and gamers into car lovers. This is now the ethos of Turn 10 Studios. Unlike SMS that went with the “This is REAL Racing” brand or “The Real Driving Simulator” like GT, Forza sticks with turning gamers into car lovers and car lovers into gamers – and it does this oh so very well. It’s not claiming to be the most realistic racing game on the market. It does claim to have one of the most realistic simulation engines on the market – and I’d be damned if that wasn’t true. But it’s all about how that information is delivered to the audience. One of my favorite driving games this generation is DriveClub and Evolution Studios squeezed a TON of simulation data into that game – despite its arcade handling. Underneath those gorgeous graphics and arcade like handling is a highly complex physics engine that simulates everything from the way the suspension stiffens during gear changes in a Ferrari to how the differential in an AWD car handles a loss of grip on one or more wheels. Honestly, it does things GT6 doesn’t even do when it comes to accurately replicating car behavior, but I highly doubt anyone considers DriveClub a contender for “most realistic driving game” anytime soon.


    People will always have their opinions on what they deem to be ‘realistic.’ I once had a discussion with a young man who was arguing my opinion regarding the original pCars’ handling, claiming that I was wrong for criticizing it – despite the fact that this was a discussion at a coffee shop in Monterey, CA, shortly after a race I scored a podium finish in. Needless to say he had little to no track experience whatsoever.


    At the end of the day, these are all just games meant to have fun with. If you want to argue what is and isn’t realistic, how about taking your car out for a track day and see for yourself. Even better, go to a racing school and get your regional competition license. I’ve instructed at one in North America – they’re very good.

    Having a physics engine that allows you to grab a 240Z, swap in an RB26DETT and pump out over 700RWHP, slam it until she’s “dirt nasty low” and take it drifting is insanely impressive – to me at least. Maybe I’m just old. But if you want something that doesn’t allow that level of freedom, but instead focuses on set statistical data that is very accurate, then try something like iRacing or Assetto Corsa. If you want more realistic physics simulation, then try something like BeamNG. Or if you want to have some fun and lose some friends along the way – play Mario Kart!


    Sorry for the long post. I tried to cover as much information as I could from the last pages that I missed. Mumbling comes with age – be gentle with me!

    EDIT: Adding comment to better reflect, using someone else's words, what I meant with Forza changing its goals from the original games going into the new era as its competition changed.

    "The best racing game ever is Forza 2 on the Xbox. The gameplay was brilliant, the circuits, the cars… The key was that to be fast, you had to be very precise, not like most of the Formula One games you have today. I never really liked Forza 3 or Forza 4; they improved the way it looked and the number of cars and tracks, but the actual car dynamics and the way you played it did not improve, especially if – like me – you were using a steering wheel and pedals and a cheap playseat."

    - Robin Frijns
    Blancpain GT champion 2015, Formula E front-runner with Amlin Andretti
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  12. Roswellito

    Roswellito

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    Hello,
    Rainy day at Nürburgring for my third drive in Nissan GT-R :):)
    The wait is nearly over ...
    Enjoy :):)
     
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  13. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    I think it depends on your playstyle with a pad. I don't use precise movements, and instead use the tapping method and it actually seems to work better when countersteering as a quick tap is basically complete opposite lock, where as if you're modulating the steering, it can jolt back and forth because of it being 1:1. After adjusting, I've become just as fast with it than without.

    Right now I'm using no aids, and simulation steering on a pad. Only one I keep on is driving line. If I eventually get a wheel I'd likely take off driving line, but for now, it's sticking.
     
  14. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    I try to gently move the stick back & forth in the corners, sort of similar to how racers will seesaw the wheel. I can control it on Simulation for the most part (with a bit of patience & concentration), but the switchbacks are difficult to do so with how I move the the thumb stick. I'll try the tapping method next time around.

    I use no aids besides the braking line & manual w/ automated clutch.
     
  15. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    I've used nothing but the tapping method from the start of me playing games, so it might be an acquired play style. The way you play, for example, is difficult for me to adjust to because of that. Countersteering is the hardest part of simulation steering, and I notice one fast quick tap towards counter-steer usually quickly adjusts the car back into place. Just too much will send you 360ing into a wall, though.

    Quick correction, I also using braking line, not the full line.
     
  16. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    Pretty much. :lol:

    I will say I only tried it with the GT2 RS as well, and from what I read in here, it's been a very hit or miss car. I want to give it a go in the GT-R, but I'm not sure if I'll get a solid idea if the option is right for me because that race requires a bit more control with the rain. I'm also not interested much in the semis either, tbh.

    On another note, the interior view of the GT-R sounds very... strange. I'm not questioning its accuracy, but it sounds to me like a sound sample recorded from the car on a dyno inside a building. There's this certain "effect" or whatever in that view that gives the impression of sound vibrating off a wall. Maybe just me. The RS doesn't have it.
     
  17. Populuxe Cowboy

    Populuxe Cowboy Premium

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    I get what you're saying. I especially get your comment about wanting smaller national level tracks. I feel like Lime Rock was a good step in that direction, but people are still going to want the most famous race tracks over the smaller less well known tracks. If a racing franchise isn't going in a direction that interests you, then there's no reason to continue with that franchise. It's why I'm finally done with Gran Turismo. It fulfilled my needs as a racer/gamer through the first four games, but it doesn't any more, so I'm done. Saying so isn't "whining", it's just admitting it doesn't work for you any more.
     
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  18. VXR

    VXR

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    Great to hear praise for the physics in Forza, because I don't feel the supposed greatness of Assetto Corsa with the control pad on my games console.
     
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  19. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    Grab a wheel and you will :p
     
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  20. TheCrazySwede

    TheCrazySwede

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    "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
    - Friedrich Nietzsche

    There are so many variables that make up what we enjoy in a racing game. Personal preferences, play style, the sort of hardware you use, console, physics, etc. In the end, none of those matter if you, the player - the final digit in the complex formula constructing all the different colors that make up the art - do not enjoy the picture that is painted as a result. A serious sim racer with thousands of dollars, pounds, euros or yen invested into a sim-racing rig may shun those who compare their godly titles to the likes of playing Forza or Gran Turismo with a game pad. Likewise, someone trying to play Assetto Corsa with a controller will be left confused as to what the praise is all about, seeing as how the cars behave like greased up pigs when all you have is your left thumb - or God forbid, a set of D-pads.

    Play whatever it is you enjoy the most - the way you enjoy it the most. That is why we are here, is it not? We are all gamers and we love the titles we play, the way we like to play them - because at the end of the day, whether you're battling for the win on the last straight at the 24hr of Nurburgring in Gran Turismo, or just one hairpin away from beating your friend on Rainbow Road in Mario Kart - it's all racing; and that's why we are here :)
     
  21. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    I've yet to give the demo a go, and I wont be home until next Monday, so I'm just going to have to wait for the actual release. The thing I hate the most about the simulation is when you run into a bunch of asses online. It makes corrections after an impact a bit tricky sometimes.
     
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  22. FuzzyFassbender

    FuzzyFassbender

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    Same with PC2... I'm seeing some mentioning PC2 being similar to PC1. Maybe with a gamepad but with a wheel it's a night and day difference. I'm not on a console for PCars so can't comment on gamepad.
     
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  23. breyzipp

    breyzipp

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    Whoever said that... total rubbish, I played both PC1 and PC2 with a controller and PC2 is way better with a controller than PC1. After all the patches and updates PC1 "worked" with a controller with "some" cars but only after a lot of fiddling with the settings and looking up guides online. My experience with PC2 with a controller is completely the opposite and it works just fine with all but 1 cars I tried, straight out of the box. Of course it's a real sim so cars are more difficult to handle than in Forza since the rules of physics and the elements apply, but the controller input itself is IMO on par with Forza. They got some good speed sensitivity and damper sliders as well now to tweak it to your needs. Maybe that guy is used to slamming his controller in a Forza style, of course that's not going to work in PC2, it's a sim.

    I played PC2 almost non-stop from friday until today. I just gave the FM7 demo a quick try before bed to see how it feels. All assists off and the Nissan GT500 in the rain. Let me tell this, this is not even remotely close to being a sim. You can just drift that car from side to side zigzagging all over the Nurburgring straights on it's hocus pocus magical sun&rain tyres. It's a shame if the devs put so much manufacturer data in their cars as someone claims, because it's obviously a lot of wasted effort since it's not coming out of it. But if some people want to believe it's a sim for whatever reason... go ahead.

    But, in all honesty, even though PC2 is absolutely amazing and it is very much playable and enjoyable, there are some issues, most noticeably with inconsistent AI difficulty. A game of this level of depth and complexity just cannot be expected to be released without issues. But SMS has a good reputation on rolling out good fixes and updates so the bugs will be ironed out soon. They are already hard at work.
     
  24. regnar

    regnar Premium

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    If you have time to kill, somebody found that if you run laps in reverse these will add to the two laps that you get, so if you run four laps in reverse you will get a total of 6 laps and so on, in doing so the track will dry. I've tested and it does work.

    One thing that is noticeable with the demo, after the sky clears a little bit, is the uneven light brightness when transitioning from the car facing away from the sun to pointing towards to sun, is almost a instant brightness or dimness that doesn’t seem natural, As though a light being turned on or off, this isn't noticed when running the normal first two laps of the demo.

    The pits are accessible and the car will pit in it’s stall.
     
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  25. bf3

    bf3

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    Not sure if this is serious LOL or just another try to say something about FM.There is no one who can come even close to T10 control pad implementation-you here talking nonsense- i played pc2 for nearly 30+h and i can say its barely better than pc1,the fact that so "sim" oriented company went for using pad as a main fix tells more than they want to get average Joes playingit,must be sales suffering?Same as @TheCarzySwede said about it ;)

    And since when SMS have a good reputation on fixing they game?They never fixed pc1 in first place,if you mean by this "good reputation"..be it :D Releasing half baked game its not that hard nowadays,and there is not much improvements in pc2-same engine,same sounds,same problems from pc1,and they wont be fixed i can bet.They strugling with 60fps already,so...And they talking about another IP being Forza killer hahahahaha :D

    Im not even starting on AI-most dumbest AI i saw in racing game,rather have Gran Turismos AI using train tracks,than pc1 who cant save they lifes on 1st corner.Thats "new" game for you which will need half years of fixing.If itsever be fixed in first place,like pc1.More likely they will leave few people on "fixing" and move to another game.Thats how most gamers see sms

    As for Forza physics - they dont need to be full sim,enough of those around-again,like @TheCrazySwede said,there is way much more under Forza physics hood than some can see,and i have way more trust in proper dev like T10 than some sms.
    Then again-i rather have 700+ cars to choose from,make own liveries,change rims,put wide body kits,do whatever i want with car and race it,rather than race same car over and over..Even FM5 had more cars :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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  26. Sureboss

    Sureboss Premium

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    Just downloaded the demo, My first ever dabble in to a FM title (got FH3 with the XBOS which I'm enjoying).

    1) I'm finding the Porsche not very nice to drive, throttle and steering require very sensitive inputs. Others finding this? I'm on pad.

    2) Mugello in the trucks is fun, Always liked the track and the trucks are engaging but relatively easy to drive. Good combo.

    3) GTR at Ring GP.. Great fun.

    How are the seasoned FM veterans finding this first look at FM7?
     
  27. Ak1504

    Ak1504

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    The Porsche is not easy but Forza is not NfS ;)

    I really like what i see in the demo and there is no question that Forza 7 will be a great game :)
     
  28. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    Having not tried the demo yet, by chance do you have simulation steering on?

    Although I've been hearing mixed responses about it, I'm not entirely sure what it could be, to be honest.
     
  29. yabiggoose

    yabiggoose

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    It's not great on a pad even on assisted steering imo. Track isn't great though.
     
  30. Sureboss

    Sureboss Premium

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    Yes, I changed it to simulation as I found it too difficult to be precise on Normal (I think it was on that).

    Yeah, don't think the track was particularly good.