Forza Motorsport 7: Demo Discussion

[Ak1504]

Yes, the AI in the demo is awful; most likely just place holders for the demo. The full game will be the same as FM5, FH2, FM6 and FH3 in that it will use drivatars farmed from player collected data.

Will test the AI again after release of the full game.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I drove a few more laps today after tweaking the settings a bit I have my CSR Elite wheel feeling pretty good now. It was quite a rush the first couple of laps because I had been driving FM6 with a POS non FFB wheel and the Elite has lots of FFB. Quite a difference to adjust to right off, paired with the lift off oversteer on that Porsche my first lap was an adventure.

After some tweaking I enjoyed driving the Porsche though will take many more laps on that track to get a quick lap time.
The truck race was to easy, first try and my lap was like 18 seconds faster than the AIs best. Been ages since I drove that track, never drove a truck like that before and had not really driven much of anything in a game for months still a very easy win.

The last event showed a much improved rain system, I really hated what they did with rain in FM6 but this one seems promising.

Pre-ordered the ultimate edition after I confirmed that my wheel would work on the PC version. So glad that I do not have to use that Spider wheel now.

 

[Ialyrn]

@HBR-Roadhog Will be good to see what you can do in FM7 with your fanatec wheel, nice to see you away from the spider wheel; and hopefully see more of your times on the non oval tracks.

 

[PJTierney]

,

Will test the AI again after release of the full game.

Can you do similar tests with existing Forza games? Curious to see if it's just a demo issue or a trend.

 

[Ak1504]

Tomorrow

 

[Northstar]

The demo AI feels similar to previous games when you do a fresh start while offline so the game can't load any drivatars. Hopefully that's the case here and the full release will have the slightly less terrible but still pretty bad drivatars.

What does concern me is that the AI still can't do standing starts without causing complete mayhem.

 

[deththrasher]

The demo AI feels similar to previous games when you do a fresh start while offline so the game can't load any drivatars. Hopefully that's the case here and the full release will have the slightly less terrible but still pretty bad drivatars.

What does concern me is that the AI still can't do standing starts without causing complete mayhem.

maybe it's rose tinted glasses but i remember the AI in forza 4 (pre drivatar) being better

 

[GTDavy]

I finally gave it a try with my G920. Goodness, the default settings are HORRIBLE! I copied my settings from FH3 and the game is perfectly enjoyable. I feel it's actually smoother. Yes, there is very little feel fromt he car compared to AC, but it is perfectly playable.

About the Porsche. With a wheel it is indeed very hard to get used to, but after a couple of laps, I managed to control it just fine. I even won the race. No assists, SIM steering (whatever that means in Forza) and even ABS off. This car will be perfectly fine with a better set of tires. Hopefully not racing, but the one before (if it is not using them already).

So yeah. On a G920 at least, the game is just fine.

I have changed mostly my deadzones, nothing on the FFB so far. What setting are you using for the G920?

I haven't quite been able to turn TC and STM off yet with this car and track, ABS off, and of course manual shifting (no clutch). I am still not quite sure how I feel about this Dubai track. The Porsche takes some time to get used to for sure. I would like to spent some time with this beast alone on a few tracks to improve with this car.

 

[Northstar]

maybe it's rose tinted glasses but i remember the AI in forza 4 (pre drivatar) being better

Same here, I think drivatar is a good idea, but it needs a good base AI, which it doesn't, in order to really be any good.

 

[Ialyrn]

Same here, I think drivatar is a good idea, but it needs a good base AI, which it doesn't, in order to really be any good.

The Ai in Forza, even the older games, has always been drivtars. The data was farmed from a much smalled circle however, namely the T10 team. Its always been a learning AI, the first forza game also allowed players to train up their own drivatar. On top of that you could also take that drivatar information to a friend and they could race your drivatar. The only thing that has changed on that front, is that now the drivatars are globally trained from data mined from anyone who plays current Forza titles and are connected to the internet to upload said data. Not a perfect system, but that is how the drivatar system has grown over the years.

 

[HuskyGT]

I have changed mostly my deadzones, nothing on the FFB so far. What setting are you using for the G920?

I haven't quite been able to turn TC and STM off yet with this car and track, ABS off, and of course manual shifting (no clutch). I am still not quite sure how I feel about this Dubai track. The Porsche takes some time to get used to for sure. I would like to spent some time with this beast alone on a few tracks to improve with this car.

My settings are very unorthodox and I don't think anyone would play that way. Given that this is not a sim, I pretty much just kill the Damper, center Spring, dead zones, FFB and max out the sensitivity. Anything above 10 feels like it will break the wheel in this game.

I haven't tried full-manual w/clutch because of the lack of manual cars in this demo, but I'm sure it's okay like in FH3. I never had problem with the clutch in that game, heel/toe or rev matching. (I know I could use clutch, but it kind of breaks the immersion if the car hasn't one)

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

,

Can you do similar tests with existing Forza games? Curious to see if it's just a demo issue or a trend.

I've just done a similar test in FM6. VIR, in an indy car. Placed the car side on slap bang in the middle of the track about halfway down the long back straight.

Result was a little better in that the AI made some effort to go around me but it was far from perfect and incident free.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

For the PC sims like rF2, AC, AMS, etc. the sim sets the steering lock based on the IRL car. I don't know if Forza does the same as for the console there's a lock option in the setup, on the PC there isn't. After I set the lock to 540 in the Thrustmaster control panel "some" of the wheel problems I was having with FM7 have improved.
I haven't had much time to determine if my settings can be improved more but compared to my initial FM7 race car control is better, not great by any means. Initially I had a huge dead zone and 900 degrees didn't help with catching the back end. At least now I can use my wheel, not as fast as a gamepad but maybe it will take time.

Note, the Porsche is still a handful, the backend is always ready to come around if not careful.

Wheel: Thrustmaster TX

TM Control Panel:
Rotation: 540
Strength: 75
Constant: 100
Periodic: 100
Spring: 0
Damper: 0

Game:
Vibration: 100
FFB: 90
Sensitivity: 50
Linearity: 50
Understeer: 100
Min Force: 125
Damper: 0
Center: 0

All assists OFF
Steering: NORMAL (hard to catch slides with simulation)

 

[HuskyGT]

For the PC sims like rF2, AC, AMS, etc. the sim sets the steering lock based on the IRL car. I don't know if Forza does the same as for the console there's a lock option in the setup, on the PC there isn't. After I set the lock to 540 in the Thrustmaster control panel "some" of the wheel problems I was having with FM7 have improved.
I haven't had much time to determine if my settings can be improved more but compared to my initial FM7 race car control is better, not great by any means. Initially I had a huge dead zone and 900 degrees didn't help with catching the back end. At least now I can use my wheel, not as fast as a gamepad but maybe it will take time.

Note, the Porsche is still a handful, the backend is always ready to come around if not careful.

Wheel: Thrustmaster TX

TM Control Panel:
Rotation: 540
Strength: 75
Constant: 100
Periodic: 100
Spring: 0
Damper: 0

Game:
Vibration: 100
FFB: 90
Sensitivity: 50
Linearity: 50
Understeer: 100
Min Force: 125
Damper: 0
Center: 0

All assists OFF
Steering: NORMAL (hard to catch slides with simulation)

I never thought of wheel lock before. I will try that. Catching a slide is indeed difficult, if not impossible. I only manage to do it right in AC, Pcars and surprisingly BeamNG. I got to the point were I just learned to avoid sliding, or correcting as soon as the slide begins. As for steering, I still can't tell what changes from Normal to Simulation.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Yes, the AI in the demo is awful; most likely just place holders for the demo. The full game will be the same as FM5, FH2, FM6 and FH3 in that it will use drivatars farmed from player collected data.

People who had a chance to test the full game running w/Drivatars seem to be impressed with the "Unbeatable" AI (Super GT has pointed out that they seem to be much faster than the player on the straights, but it may be up to him choosing a car that doesn't execel for top speed for the race more than anything). And for the difference between Drivatars and the "standard" AI the game ships with, please refer to the Showcase events in FM6.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Tried this demo briefly on Xbox One S with standard controller and also on PC with G27 wheel.

Physics impression has not really changed since I did a couple of laps at 2013 Eurogamer Expo on Forza 5 demo. Feels fundamentally flawed to me. Never experienced anything like Forza how cars behave when they start to slide whether in real life or other games. Everything I've come to expect, the opposite happens in terms of how the car grips. Also wet weather simulation is a joke!

FFB felt quite decent for a Forza game. Get a lot of shuddering feeling with the 911 GT2 RS which is not nice, G27 makes a racket with this car. Going to Normal steering tames that a bit. Doesn't feel natural how the cars steer, I don't think that is really down to the FFB implementation but rather the physics engine. Normal does a good job of working with the odd handling so seems to steer how the game requires. I prefer using the wheel over the pad as I can place the car better with it. IIRC my brother's mate has ordered one of these cars, wonder if real one understeers like crazy and also feels unstable through corners or it handles like a dream.

On the GT-R race, I'm assuming on wet weather the cars magically get super-duper wet tyres put on. It feels really overdone, the visuals make the road surface look a highly reflective mirror at times. Going from Xbox One S to Ultra on PC doesn't make much of a noticeable difference but I already expected that. They've done a good job on image quality on the Xbox One version. Anyway, kerbs and grass is fine to go over full throttle or heavy braking in the rain, it feels a lot safer avoiding the landmines puddles on the road surface and braking heavily on the kerbs and/or waterlogged grass as you can stop really quickly or going full throttle on to them as it doesn't affect the car much compared to driving through puddles. Best to just avoid the puddles and drive anywhere else on the wet surface which gives tons of grip.

Now to good part of the demo, the MB Racing Truck. That thing feels so nimble. Can brake super late, doesn't really oversteer or understeer, very neutral handling. Used Simulation steering, can really throw that truck about and grips like crazy, best vehicle I've ever driven in a Forza game in terms of handling. Not sure how realistic it is though... First time I tried to complete the race on PC, it crashed but on second time it worked. I had a look at real life lap times on Mugello and saw that I managed to beat Jeremy Clarkson's DB11 time. I was quite cautious to get a valid lap and first complete clean flying lap using G27 wheel.

I wonder if T10 will ever manage to improve their tyre model so cars slide progressively in a natural way, not feel like most cars are trying to kill you even if you don't look at it funny. Quite disappointing not much has changed regarding physics, expected this to be the case after seeing E3 videos of game.

 

[PzR Slim]

Tried this demo briefly on Xbox One S with standard controller and also on PC with G27 wheel.

Physics impression has not really changed since I did a couple of laps at 2013 Eurogamer Expo on Forza 5 demo. Feels fundamentally flawed to me. Never experienced anything like Forza how cars behave when they start to slide whether in real life or other games. Everything I've come to expect, the opposite happens in terms of how the car grips. Also wet weather simulation is a joke!

FFB felt quite decent for a Forza game. Get a lot of shuddering feeling with the 911 GT2 RS which is not nice, G27 makes a racket with this car. Going to Normal steering tames that a bit. Doesn't feel natural how the cars steer, I don't think that is really down to the FFB implementation but rather the physics engine. Normal does a good job of working with the odd handling so seems to steer how the game requires. I prefer using the wheel over the pad as I can place the car better with it. IIRC my brother's mate has ordered one of these cars, wonder if real one understeers like crazy and also feels unstable through corners or it handles like a dream.

On the GT-R race, I'm assuming on wet weather the cars magically get super-duper wet tyres put on. It feels really overdone, the visuals make the road surface look a highly reflective mirror at times. Going from Xbox One S to Ultra on PC doesn't make much of a noticeable difference but I already expected that. They've done a good job on image quality on the Xbox One version. Anyway, kerbs and grass is fine to go over full throttle or heavy braking in the rain, it feels a lot safer avoiding the landmines puddles on the road surface and braking heavily on the kerbs and/or waterlogged grass as you can stop really quickly or going full throttle on to them as it doesn't affect the car much compared to driving through puddles. Best to just avoid the puddles and drive anywhere else on the wet surface which gives tons of grip.

Now to good part of the demo, the MB Racing Truck. That thing feels so nimble. Can brake super late, doesn't really oversteer or understeer, very neutral handling. Used Simulation steering, can really throw that truck about and grips like crazy, best vehicle I've ever driven in a Forza game in terms of handling. Not sure how realistic it is though... First time I tried to complete the race on PC, it crashed but on second time it worked. I had a look at real life lap times on Mugello and saw that I managed to beat Jeremy Clarkson's DB11 time. I was quite cautious to get a valid lap and first complete clean flying lap using G27 wheel.

I wonder if T10 will ever manage to improve their tyre model so cars slide progressively in a natural way, not feel like most cars are trying to kill you even if you don't look at it funny. Quite disappointing not much has changed regarding physics, expected this to be the case after seeing E3 videos of game.

Make sure you turn off the setting that increases grip off the track. And the difference between Xbox and Ultra PC is gobsmacking so I’d go back and check your settings because if you can’t see a difference you are doing it wrong.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Make sure you turn off the setting that increases grip off the track. And the difference between Xbox and Ultra PC is gobsmacking so I’d go back and check your settings because if you can’t see a difference you are doing it wrong.

Haven't tried that setting yet, need to give it a go and see if it is like SRF or differently done. I'm guessing you're running at 4K on a 4K screen so you get the native display resolution difference but on 1080p display while racing in cockpit view, I don't think there is much of a noticeable difference. Had a quick look on YouTube just now and someone has done a video comparing the two.

 

[PzR Slim]

Haven't tried that setting yet, need to give it a go and see if it is like SRF or differently done. I'm guessing you're running at 4K on a 4K screen so you get the native display resolution difference but on 1080p display while racing in cockpit view, I don't think there is much of a noticeable difference. Had a quick look on YouTube just now and someone has done a video comparing the two.

Ah ok, yes I’m running 4K and the difference is quite something. In 4K with everything maxed on PC the game looks flawless. It’s staggering actually.

 

[HAL20XX]

I wonder how much of the issue with the 911 GT2 RS is partly due to the course itself. With those long sweeping turns and elevation changes, the suspension is constantly upset. It could be just me though. I've never done well (nor enjoyed) these types of tracks (Prague, Alps, etc...).

 

[zr1chris]

I wonder how much of the issue with the 911 GT2 RS is partly due to the course itself. With those long sweeping turns and elevation changes, the suspension is constantly upset. It could be just me though. I've never done well (nor enjoyed) these types of tracks (Prague, Alps, etc...).

The track doesn't help but it's so wide that there should be plenty of room to get it gathered up if you start to slide. You can ease off the gas and counter steer as you should to correct it and it just continues to slide the back end around in most cases and I've caught it very early in some cases but it doesn't matter.

 

[HAL20XX]

The track doesn't help but it's so wide that there should be plenty of room to get it gathered up if you start to slide. You can ease off the gas and counter steer as you should to correct it and it just continues to slide the back end around in most cases and I've caught it very early in some cases but it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I only gave each race a single go so far, and at that it was on controller. It was just a thought that probably didn't hold much weight. I'm still debating if I want to hook my TX up. I have my T300RS currently installed on my rig, I'm using my Xbox as a Blu-Ray player in my theater, and I'm really lazy.

 

[JeffKill]

Playing with the TM TX on Xbox one. After playing so much Dirt Rally, Assetto Corsa and F1 2017, it's hard to believe the ffb model T10 uses is even acceptable. I can control the cars just fine and win the races no problem. But the ffb is so numb and lifeless. Maybe I just need to find the right wheel settings, who knows.

With the elite controller it feels great, after removing the dead zones. Definitely a great looking game as well.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

I'm glad many of you have had the chance to try out the FM7 demo!

I had the pleasure of playing the same demo a while back and my relationship with Porsche, along with my racing experience with the brand, gives me a unique opportunity to share some insight with some of you now that the demo has been released.

From what I understand based on my conversations with Turn 10 Studios, one of the main purposes of the demo is for users to experience how their hardware handles the title. If your system runs the demo without a hitch - then your system will handle the full title just fine! I was told that further improvements have been made since the demo was first shown at E3 and I imagine they'll continue to optimize the game post launch. The demo is as much of a benchmark test as it is a demonstration of what's to come.

I've seen a lot of concerns about the handling of the Porsche 911 GT2 RS - and yes, I read all 9 pages of this thread about it. Let me begin by saying that the GT2 RS was a very, very well kept secret as far as automotive secrets go. I was very involved in the development of the latest generation 911 GT3 RS, but I knew little to nothing about the GT2 RS - so well done to both Porsche and Turn 10 Studios!

That being said, I am very aware of the issues some of you have brought up. From what I can tell there are a few factors that play into this, including Forza's physics model, the weight distribution of the car and Forza's handling model.

I'm a huge fan of what Turn 10 has accomplished with their vehicle data and physics. There are a lot of things going on "under the hood" that is super impressive - but a lot of it gets suppressed and watered down when it gets delivered. Forza games have a huge tendency to provoke understeer in cars. No, I am not talking about the annoying and non-adjustable speed sensitive steering that controller users have to put up with. Cars in Forza understeer like pigs compared to their real life counterparts. The 911RSR from FM4, for example, drives like a pile of rotten dog doodoo compared to a real life road going 911 GT3 or even Turbo. I had an extensive talk with the head chap of Turn 10 physics team about car handling when I advised them at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca and the short answer was that the 360 could not handle the amount of data they were tossing at the user. I've posted about that interview before if anyone is interested to hear more about it.

But this causes a big problem for FM users. Firstly you have to understand T10's position. They are not a developer for sim racers - not anymore. Back when the original titles released, they were competing head to head with Gran Turismo. This is no longer the case. Forza Motorsport is a launch title game and a flagship title for an entire gaming brand. This changes their stance from "Catered to a niche market" to "Catered for the masses", and T10 does this brilliantly. But how on Earth does one make a Porsche 911 GT2 RS handle very closely to the real thing and still make it easy enough for a 10-year old to drive? Simple - you can't. Well, not exactly. The phrase I used with the dev team was "A wolf in sheep's clothing" - walking the fine line between simulating the real thing and allowing someone with an Xbox controller to tame it.

Rear-engined cars all handle really odd in Forza titles. As someone very experienced with these monsters, this has always bugged me. All racing games can simulate grip really well, even Driveclub, but the loss of said grip is where it gets super tricky! The first Project Cars was absolute garbage at this. Both Ben Collins and I complained about this a lot. I ended up getting let go of the project because I spoke against it so highly (comes to show how well they accept criticism. Isn't that why I'm here?!) Forza is no exception. Forza games don't simulate the loss of grip very well at all. In Forza titles, the game seems to confuse grip with handling and vice versa. You never experience sudden changes in grip, but rather gradual changes in handling. This is NOT how cars behave in real life. Assetto Corsa does this very, very well. I've heard pCars 2 has gotten better at this. The problem with Forza is that this is a HUGE problem when a car is RWD and has most of its weight on the driving wheels - like, let's say, Porsche 911's. There's a hint of irony with Porsche being the brand Forza is partnering up with seeing as how those cars really test the "Forzatech" engine.

The road that the demo allows you to drive the 911 on is also very demanding. Those changes in weight and grip vs handling gets really aggravated with sudden changes in elevation. Don't take my word for it - go on Youtube and watch Nurburgring crash videos. See if you can tell what almost all of those hot spots have in common. Forza handles the elevation changes really well! You can see this happening in real time using the game's telemetry display. But again, it constitutes a loss of handling vs loss of grip. Feeding the wheel as you feel the car starting to lean to one corner does almost nothing as suddenly your car looses its ability to handle well vs the tires losing grip. In Assetto Corsa and iRacing, you can correct this (same goes with lift off oversteer) very accurately. In Forza, it's really tricky. But again, I believe it's because this game caters more to the masses and not to sim racers. Games like Need for Speed do the exact same thing. When you're drifting, you're not managing levels of grip, you're managing vehicle handling. The GRID titles do the same thing. My favorite example of this approach is Driveclub. Evo Studios do a fantastic job of perfecting that model and make you feel like a superhero when sliding cars around.

So no, it's not you. No, it's not that Turn 10 messed up the car. The car is very accurately portrayed in the game. As far as I can tell, it's just a matter of how Forza simulates the differences between handling and grip. Jeremy Clarkson has a great way of describing it (allow me to paraphrase a bit):

"A [modern] F1 car has an immense amount of grip, but as far as I can tell it has lousy handling. In the olden days, it was much less about grip and more about handling, which is a driver led event in a race. Mastering a car that doesn't handle particularly well, or if it handles but has very small grip, requires immense skill."

This is what Forza does. Loss of grip comes with loss of handling in these rear-engined cars. Perhaps it'll change in the future, but this has always been my gripe with Forza titles. In PC sims, you can lose the grip without sacrificing the handling. Once you get used to how cars behave in Forza, it's much easier to adapt to them, but seeing as how deeply integrated Forza's assist system is with the actual handling of cars, I don't see this going away anytime soon. Blame the 10 year old kids playing Forza. It's all their fault

 

[MockngBrd]

My first time using a gamepad after years on a steering setup in GT..... man i suck...


Is it only me or that Pork has just crazy snap correction oversteer.... i just can't drive the damn thing...

At times i'm holding a nice mild drift then just one extra small correction input and the car just snaps the back end around....

driving with sim steering / abs on / tcs off

 

[HAL20XX]

...I was very involved in the development of the latest generation 911 GT3 RS...

Out of curiosity, did you have any input on the new 911 GT3 (non-RS)? I got to drive one on a track last month and it was an incredible machine.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

My first time using a gamepad after years on a steering setup in GT..... man i suck...


Is it only me or that Pork has just crazy snap correction oversteer.... i just can't drive the damn thing...

At times i'm holding a nice mild drift then just one extra small correction input and the car just snaps the back end around....

driving with sim steering / abs on / tcs off

First mistake - using "simulation" steering, unless you enjoy the challenge but it surely doesn't "simulate" reality.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

driving with sim steering

Turn on Normal Steering if you're using a pad. Sim steering tries to simulate using a wheel on a pad, so everything becomes twitchier. I don't recommend using it at all unless you have a wheel.

Out of curiosity, did you have any input on the new 911 GT3 (non-RS)? I got to drive one on a track last month and it was an incredible machine.

Yes and no. I didn't have role in the development of the GT3 directly, but the development of the RS ran almost alongside the GT3 and lots of input was inevitably used for both models. I've driven both and they're phenomenal. They're fundamentally the same car with the RS being more useful on the track and less useful on the road. I'm glad you enjoyed your experience! Which track were you on?

 

[zr1chris]

Rear-engined cars all handle really odd in Forza titles. As someone very experienced with these monsters, this has always bugged me. All racing games can simulate grip really well, even Driveclub, but the loss of said grip is where it gets super tricky! The first Project Cars was absolute garbage at this. Both Ben Collins and I complained about this a lot. I ended up getting let go of the project because I spoke against it so highly (comes to show how well they accept criticism. Isn't that why I'm here?!) Forza is no exception. Forza games don't simulate the loss of grip very well at all. In Forza titles, the game seems to confuse grip with handling and vice versa. You never experience sudden changes in grip, but rather gradual changes in handling. This is NOT how cars behave in real life. Assetto Corsa does this very, very well. I've heard pCars 2 has gotten better at this. The problem with Forza is that this is a HUGE problem when a car is RWD and has most of its weight on the driving wheels - like, let's say, Porsche 911's. There's a hint of irony with Porsche being the brand Forza is partnering up with seeing as how those cars really test the "Forzatech" engine.

Please tell me you are referring to playing with a game pad....?

From my experience with a wheel Project Cars physics beats out FM7 in every conceivable way.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

@TheCrazySwede, agree fully regarding simulation steering with a gamepad - MUCH too hard to catch the car, at least for the Porsche for sure. But, I also don't think it's well suited for a wheel, normal steering is closer to reality. Forza is much harder than a real sim (rF2, iRacing, ....) for many of the reason's you stated above, no use in making it harder than it needs to be. Maybe simulation steering would work best for drifting. My $.02