Forza

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slackbladder
The only thing that bothers me is the 30fps of Forza. I'm so used to the pure silky smoothness of GT3 that I wonder if Forza suffers a little in comparison. Is the fps of a racing game important to anyone else?
I agree in every point you made, especially the 30 fps part. I wish I could choose between 30fps with AA(I wonder why RSC2 AA looks better) or 60fps without AA. I definitely would go for 60fps.
I also give a s.h.i.t to the AI and damage model, if I could get 60fps and AA. 👎
 
i hate when people say "X-Box HAS better graphics than Playstation 2. just because X-Box is CAPABLE of better graphics dosn't mean all the games have better graphics. its the amount of time they put into the game.
 
ferrari355
"just because X-Box is CAPABLE of better graphics dosn't mean all the games have better graphics."

It's not about the hardware....it's all about the software. Xbox simply doesn't have the talent pool to produce the best coding possible for that system.
 
TigJackson
It's not about the hardware....it's all about the software. Xbox simply doesn't have the talent pool to produce the best coding possible for that system.

That's what it's all about. Look at GT1. When you got to the high res mode...that was just sick. Looked better then any game on the N64.

It's all about being able to "code to the metal" and really bring out the potential of the machine. That's why I've always liked console games better then PC. The programmers have to code better rather then utilize better hardware.

Anyway, can Xbox games look better then PS2, sure. Do most....nope. Oh well.
 
slackbladder
PS. Ah, Test Drive..I remember that! But was the first ever Need For Speed released before that? I can't remember....

Nope... Test Drive was out for the Atari 800 and Commodore 64... WAY before the first NFS...

slackbladder
The only thing that bothers me is the 30fps of Forza. I'm so used to the pure silky smoothness of GT3 that I wonder if Forza suffers a little in comparison. Is the fps of a racing game important to anyone else?

Absolutely. In fact, I'd say it is one of the most important things in a racing game. I'd definitely sacrifice some of the graphical polish for framerate...
 
welshgtlover
OMG, cool when did you get to play the whole game, online an so on.. Just curious, I didn't think it was out yet??

Uh, i don't have to play the game to see that textures are too smooth. I can see that in screenshots.

And if you haven't played the game either, who are you to criticize my opinion? Chew on that one for a bit. :)
 
Replying to what Ferrari said earlier on graphics is this.

Recently, Xbox announced that Half-Life 2 will be coming to the Xbox, and that Xbox "hand-me downs" usually get a boost on most parts including graphics making them look even better than before.

Yeah right. There's no way in hell that Xbox is going to make Half-Life 2 look better than what I get with a Dual GeForce 6800 in my Alienware.
BS Microsoft. 👎
 
porschecarreragt3.jpg


Look and see. A beautiful Carrera GT has made it. Wonder if its spoiler comes up like in PGR2.
 
Swift
Anyway, can Xbox games look better then PS2, sure. Do most....nope. Oh well.
Actually, umm, yeah, they do. Just look at any game on the xbox, then look at the game on the ps2, and the xbox version looks waaay better. I rest my case ;)
 
TriplePlay
Actually, umm, yeah, they do. Just look at any game on the xbox, then look at the game on the ps2, and the xbox version looks waaay better. I rest my case ;)

DELAYED!

for all the people that somehow were naive enough to belive forza would release this february (specially after playing that demo wich looks like beta code.), well, how's this for a rude awakening? this game will be delayed untill april they say... but don't be too surprised if it's delayed for a full year, GT style.

i never belived that february release date, so i just kept quiet about this game for the most part.
 
SaintKamus
DELAYED!

for all the people that somehow were naive enough to belive forza would release this february (specially after playing that demo wich looks like beta code.), well, how's this for a rude awakening? this game will be delayed untill april they say... but don't be too surprised if it's delayed for a full year, GT style.

i never belived that february release date, so i just kept quiet about this game for the most part.

The demo probably was beta code... it was over 6 months old alledgedly...

TigJackson
It's not about the hardware....it's all about the software. Xbox simply doesn't have the talent pool to produce the best coding possible for that system.


As for Xbox games never reaching the systems capability, hmm ever played RalliSport Challenge 2 or Fable? Niether of those would ever happen on a PS2 with the same level of graphics & are very impressive for a broken GeForce3 & a knackered Celeron chip.
 
There are of course plenty of games that are multi-platform. The Xbox version may indeed look better, but often not by lot, certainly not by as much as the hardware could possibly produce. Less jaggies perhaps, sharper definition maybe. I remember playing Timesplitters 2 on Xbox and I didn't really notice a great deal of difference in graphics. A little better than the PS2 game, but not by much. An original game made specifically for the Xbox can look amazing, though I've still seen some dodgy ones like "Azurik" for example.
As for Forza it does seem to have a slightly washed out look. But then again GT3 was criticised by some for being too vivid in its colours. Ultimately Forza looks different to GT3/GT4. Being worse/better is harder to define.

Nice to see a lot of people would prefer a smooth 60fps frame rate. I've recently been playing the US ntsc GT3 (I live in the UK and played the PAL GT3) and it does look better than the PAL version...smother and with better definition. I hope the UK GT4 will have either a 60fps option or be fully optomized. I wonder if Forza will still be 30fps in PAL territories or 25fps as GT1 and GT2 on the PS1 were?
 
http://media.ps2.ign.com/media/489/489327/img_2501006.html

http://media.xbox.ign.com/media/682/682857/img_2256992.html

Compare. If I must choose by those pictures the game I would have to buy, I would choose GT4. Forza graphics are some kind of simple, overlight and blur. GT4 has clear and sharp graphics.

And what about backfires, does Forza inlude them?? What about pit stops?

And bad question to Forza fans: Is there any Group B rally cars, WRC cars or pikes peak cars in Forza? :)

And:

http://media.xbox.ign.com/media/682/682857/img_2117862.html

what an realistic looking house!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
T5-R
As for Xbox games never reaching the systems capability, hmm ever played RalliSport Challenge 2 or Fable? Niether of those would ever happen on a PS2 with the same level of graphics & are very impressive for a broken GeForce3 & a knackered Celeron chip.

Nice!!! 👍
 
Take a look at these images from GT4's early development, see how much better the photomode images look than the captures? The captures are what GT4 used to look like way back with a limited draw distance and no AA whatsoever.

I'm posting the links only, otherwise this page would take a while to load.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen470.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen328.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen316.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen473.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen313.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen131.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen310.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/561066_20040924_screen101.jpg

With the current photomode images it makes GT4's graphics look pretty flash for a console but infact what your playing on your TV is alot less pretty but nearly all of you already knew that and why.
 
I have a strange feeling the difference in class between GT4 and Forza will be much easier to differentiate once we get to play with the physics and the general gameplay structure of the finished games. All the realistic intent and complexity the forza team is braying about will go to nought if the game isn't smooth, fun and polished even with a standard controller. (richard burns rally hmmm) Thats why GT is so brilliant, polyphony strive for realism, but also understand (I think much more completely) how to make a visceral, aesthetically pleasing, well structured console game at the same time.
 
James2097
I have a strange feeling the difference in class between GT4 and Forza will be much easier to differentiate once we get to play with the physics and the general gameplay structure of the finished games. All the realistic intent and complexity the forza team is braying about will go to nought if the game isn't smooth, fun and polished even with a standard controller. (richard burns rally hmmm) Thats why GT is so brilliant, polyphony strive for realism, but also understand (I think much more completely) how to make a visceral, aesthetically pleasing, well structured console game at the same time.

RBR is a simulator only that makes no compromises, GT started as an arcade game that strived to be a sim, it's now getting to the point where true sim fans are able to enjoy it (like myself). but it still makes compromises when it comes to "simness".
 
TriplePlay
Actually, umm, yeah, they do. Just look at any game on the xbox, then look at the game on the ps2, and the xbox version looks waaay better. I rest my case ;)

In most cases, it's a small difference. Xmen Legends, Espn NFL 2K5, and a host of games recently released. Does it look better? Perhaps. But with the power that the XBox has, the same games should look significantly better. To the point where if you put the two side by side, the Xbox would almost shame the PS2 version. But that hasn't happened.

GT4 will be smoother and have an overall better quality of visuals then Forza. This has nothing to do with hardware, it's about PD's ability to bring out the potential in the PS2.
 
i have NFS:U2 on PS2 & X-BOX and the biggest difference is that the PS2 load times are horrible, and the X-BOX has more online features ;)
 
DRIFT GOD
i have NFS:U2 on PS2 & X-BOX and the biggest difference is that the PS2 load times are horrible, and the X-BOX has more online features ;)

and those are the main advantages to the Xbox as I've said before. HDD and more stable online capabilities.
 
[RBR is a simulator only that makes no compromises, GT started as an arcade game that strived to be a sim, it's now getting to the point where true sim fans are able to enjoy it (like myself). but it still makes compromises when it comes to "simness".]


Yes, but if GT wasn't at all arcadey, polyphony would never have the funding to make such a polished franchise, that will build itself, eventually towards your ideal game. I am simply trying to say that there will always be a certain game-ness to good console games, and games full stop. No matter the sim-spin put on their supposedly hardcore physics models. To do otherwise would be commercial suicide. I am not convinced that we can really have good enough feedback - human interaction - with something as subtle as driving a race car, to have infinately complex physics - "simness" incorporated successfully into games and then have them still play well. As much a hardcore simmer as everyone here would like to think they are, I would like to see them try and enjoy a game with absolutely 100% realistic physics, warts and all. There is simply not the required subtlety in audio, controller feedback, spatial awareness... a real physicality with the car etc, that a real driver needs to actually drive right on the limit. Basically even "true sim fans" are happy for some REALLY well hidden training wheels that will never really leave any driving game. I am VERY happy at where GT has positioned itself as it is appropriate to the controller interface and feedback level you get with a dual shock - the controller most mainstream players will use. I'm not saying you can't go way more complex than GT - I would welcome it very warmly, there will be a line that is imposed by the control interface, that if crossed, the game will suck because it will feel twitchy and not smooth. What we enjoy most when we play - that smug, satisfying feeling of absolute control will start to erode and thus the game will not work so well. Regardless of how 'elite' people think they are. A player will always be human, one that needs ALL their senses to really enjoy a "true simulation". So lets all dispense with the ego and feelings of superiority. If many of us got the game we think we want, it would be unplayable. Lets just enjoy Gran Turismo for what it is. I am not attacking anyone here, I'm just wondering about what it really means to be a sim driver...
 
The biggest selling point for Forza as far as I can see are its online mode which looks very, very good (is that why it's 30fps though, to guarantee smooth oniline racing?), the customise options and the HDD of the Xbox allowing you to play your own music etc. Maybe the inclusion of Ferrari and Porsche will help too, along with the 'Drivatar' game mode.
The graphics are secondary I feel to its attraction (to me anyway). And the game physics...well, it's an unkown quantity so I can't say that particularly attracts me.

Oh yes...the loading times on the PS2 NFSU:2 is horrendous... 👎
 
James2097
[RBR is a simulator only that makes no compromises, GT started as an arcade game that strived to be a sim, it's now getting to the point where true sim fans are able to enjoy it (like myself). but it still makes compromises when it comes to "simness".]


Yes, but if GT wasn't at all arcadey, polyphony would never have the funding to make such a polished franchise, that will build itself, eventually towards your ideal game. I am simply trying to say that there will always be a certain game-ness to good console games, and games full stop. No matter the sim-spin put on their supposedly hardcore physics models. To do otherwise would be commercial suicide. I am not convinced that we can really have good enough feedback - human interaction - with something as subtle as driving a race car, to have infinately complex physics - "simness" incorporated successfully into games and then have them still play well. As much a hardcore simmer as everyone here would like to think they are, I would like to see them try and enjoy a game with absolutely 100% realistic physics, warts and all. There is simply not the required subtlety in audio, controller feedback, spatial awareness... a real physicality with the car etc, that a real driver needs to actually drive right on the limit. Basically even "true sim fans" are happy for some REALLY well hidden training wheels that will never really leave any driving game. I am VERY happy at where GT has positioned itself as it is appropriate to the controller interface and feedback level you get with a dual shock - the controller most mainstream players will use. I'm not saying you can't go way more complex than GT - I would welcome it very warmly, there will be a line that is imposed by the control interface, that if crossed, the game will suck because it will feel twitchy and not smooth. What we enjoy most when we play - that smug, satisfying feeling of absolute control will start to erode and thus the game will not work so well. Regardless of how 'elite' people think they are. A player will always be human, one that needs ALL their senses to really enjoy a "true simulation". So lets all dispense with the ego and feelings of superiority. If many of us got the game we think we want, it would be unplayable. Lets just enjoy Gran Turismo for what it is. I am not attacking anyone here, I'm just wondering about what it really means to be a sim driver...

Good points there James. If we got a game that was really a sim. We'd be bored to death. I really like what you said about the controller. That is what makes the difference. If every PS2 owner had a wheel, then it wouldn't be an issue. I like realism in my games, but anything too realistic would make it very annoying. :grumpy:
 
30fps felt REALLY bad with PGR2... and as a visual designer - Forza is simply bad aesthetically. Bland palatte, washed out. No headlight cluster detail - which is really the face of a car, our starting point visually to recognise each model. That looks embarrassing compared to GT - obvious in promo movie. Tracks look generic. It is obviously simply a quickly created team (like the monkees trying to compete with the Beatles) put together that doesn't really gel in a special way to make something of beauty. I will only be excited by Porche and Ferrari when they are in GT and don't look plastic anymore and have correct proportions and performance. Don't like the rice boy NFS style either. Very bandwagonish, very by the book EA style. Zero class. Drivatar is a gimmick to differentiate it from GT. No one will seriously enjoy that in any meaningful way.
As any sim racer will say - music while driving is unneeded fluff. Engine noise is all thats needed. Unless its simply to just make noise to distract from the apparent uninvolving blandness. Physics will NOT be what everyone wants. The presentation of the whole project so far hasn't given the immpression of a really meticulously considered game. (mish-mash of visual styles, unclassy logo, horrible offensive voice-over souting at you in the promo vid (not a sign of a sim game confident in its position), bad looking cars esp. headlights and wheels) Also, cars didn't seem to run on the track as convincingly as GT in the movies of it so far. They do not look as planted and really connected in the gameworld. Its subjective, but it doesn't have that really solid look. Weight isn't convincing (so far).
Online play, even if well thought out, is seriously like putting cream on a really sub-par cake. All the ingredients need to be first rate class for it to have merit being a competitor to GT. The simple fact that there is indeed concern over how it will turn out shows a product that can't be perfect. And it needs to be perfect to take the mantle as the best sim game. There is never concern over whether the next (or even the first) GT as a whole was going to be awesome. People will buy GT4 straight away and hire Forza. There needs to be a confidence in the market for Forza to possibly beat GT, and there just isn't. Its like killzone trying to beat halo2. Not gonna happen. A team thats better than or as good as Polyphony should easily be able to make a superior driving game on XBOX. They are obviously not ready to rumble yet. Maybe by forza motorsport 4. Even then it'd need a complete stylistic, conceptual and structural overhaul, tightened hard and streamlined. It seems a mess thats not clearly definable. A classic situation of a (highly funded) console racer trying to be all things to all people. You know how it goes.
 
I actually find driving a real car easier then games...

James I really cant agree with anything you said, I enjoyed the Forza demo myself. The feeling of contact witht he road is SUPERB, the cars really feel like they are biting in etc, and have a real feeling of power to them. Even though it runs at 30fps, it's perfectly playable. Weight shifting was pretty good, engines sounded good, Ai was pretty poor. You should try playing the game first james, while it's not up to GTs standards, it's pretty damn good. And your music comment, pure crap, I like a good soundtrack when I'm driving, unless it's agame like GTR where the cars sound spectacular. BTW whats wrong with the headlights on forza? They look pretty good to me, and I'm sat here right now spinning the cars around on the car selection screen. Fully 3d, have depth etc, and look right.

But seriously, play the game, and you'l see that it's pretty good.
 
Forza IMO looks very nice, very smooth very detailed, only the lighting and such stops it looking as realistic as GT4, but from a technical point of view Forza's graphics smash GT4's, one car in Forza uses 3-4 times as many poly's as in GT4's cars.
 
I really liked the music in the Forza demo. And I play Gran Turismo with the music on. The soundtrack is part of the spirit of the game. If I like a game's soundtrack I'll often listen to it outside of the game.
 
code_kev
I actually find driving a real car easier then games...

James I really cant agree with anything you said, I enjoyed the Forza demo myself. The feeling of contact witht he road is SUPERB, the cars really feel like they are biting in etc, and have a real feeling of power to them. Even though it runs at 30fps, it's perfectly playable. Weight shifting was pretty good, engines sounded good, Ai was pretty poor. You should try playing the game first james, while it's not up to GTs standards, it's pretty damn good. And your music comment, pure crap, I like a good soundtrack when I'm driving, unless it's agame like GTR where the cars sound spectacular. BTW whats wrong with the headlights on forza? They look pretty good to me, and I'm sat here right now spinning the cars around on the car selection screen. Fully 3d, have depth etc, and look right.

But seriously, play the game, and you'l see that it's pretty good.

Just one question. Have you ever driven a car on the track or autocross?
 
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