g-25 with supercar challenge

[Hun200kmh]

I honestly cannot make any claims there. I'm a wheel user and never went back to a pad. I can - at best - stay in touch with the best pad users for an entire race, but rarely to never will match their best laps.

So, you could say "Hey, Mario probably is very good and if he used a pad he could be a lot faster"

But you would be wrong. For several reasons:

1 - There are faster and more consistent wheel drivers than myself. I can say confidently that Biggles and Jeff (both a bit rusty now in SCC). were faster than me in FC 90% of the races we did. And PiotrB, of course, was 100% better than me ... and them.

2 - I used to race Alan in TRD3. Back then, I was using the pad because my old wheel didn't work well and I still didn't have a G25. And in pad vs. pad battles, Alan was usually better than me, he clearly had the edge (maybe not so dominant as he is now, but that can result of other reasons also. I'm not any younger with the passing of the years )

So, in the end, what can we conclude? Nothing, I guess. Maybe the wheel is more difficult to handle, maybe the pad allows you to have greater precision (therefore requiring less concentration to do the same job) ... but in the end a truly skilled guy that gives himself enough time to learn a new control method will battle at the front, be it with wheel or pad.

 

[Alan_G]

I'm yet on doubtful about that so-called pad assist: is it really an assist or is it simply the fact that you can control the car better and quicker than with the wheel?

There is 100%, absolutely, no question an assist for pad users. It's more like a steering assist package, because it's more than one thing built-in to make it more drivable. I suspected it was included simply to make it easier for the mass market to play, and felt that this should have been an optional assist for pad users. I raised this issue on the Eutechnyx forum. This is the response I got from the admin:

"The auto counter steer was indeed done to try to make it easier to play. Without it, the cars we very difficult to control for the average gamer. With hind sight, it could have been an option." http://forums.eutechnyx.com/index.php/topic,1479.0.html

Bullie: You use a pad a lot, so you have experienced this. Drive down a straight. Throw the car into oversteer, and take your hands off the controller. You will see an automatic over-steer correction; not enough to completely save the car, but enough to help, and crucially it is instantaneous making it difficult to ever lose the car.

In terms of being fast with any racing game/simulation, I think the point a lot of people seem to miss is the important thing is not the input device one uses, or how one uses it. The important thing is knowing the positioning of the car throughout the lap, knowing what line you want to draw around the parts of the circuit (which largely dictates throttle/braking), knowing when you have lost time, and when you can save time. You do a fast lap before you even start it! In other words - if it's not right in your head, then your hands (or hands + feet) won't be able to do it.

This is why I am so frustrated with GT5P/Demo, because I can't put the car where I know it needs to be (particularly on corner exit). On the other hand, I believe it is easier with a pad in SCC to put the car where you want, compared to a wheel.

 

[bullie77]

I honestly cannot make any claims there. I'm a wheel user and never went back to a pad. I can - at best - stay in touch with the best pad users for an entire race, but rarely to never will match their best laps.

So, you could say "Hey, Mario probably is very good and if he used a pad he could be a lot faster"

But you would be wrong. For several reasons:

1 - There are faster and more consistent wheel drivers than myself. I can say confidently that Biggles and Jeff (both a bit rusty now in SCC). were faster than me in FC 90% of the races we did. And PiotrB, of course, was 100% better than me ... and them.

2 - I used to race Alan in TRD3. Back then, I was using the pad because my old wheel didn't work well and I still didn't have a G25. And in pad vs. pad battles, Alan was usually better than me, he clearly had the edge (maybe not so dominant as he is now, but that can result of other reasons also. I'm not any younger with the passing of the years )

So, in the end, what can we conclude? Nothing, I guess. Maybe the wheel is more difficult to handle, maybe the pad allows you to have greater precision (therefore requiring less concentration to do the same job) ... but in the end a truly skilled guy that gives himself enough time to learn a new control method will battle at the front, be it with wheel or pad.

My comparison was solely the same driver in different controls: I still believe that, after the normal adaptation period, you would be quicker than you are presently with the wheel. If that would be enough for you to beat Biggles, Jeff or Alan? I don't know... All I'm saying is that I believe you would beat your own times set with wheel.

 

[bullie77]

Bullie: You use a pad a lot, so you have experienced this. Drive down a straight. Throw the car into oversteer, and take your hands off the controller. You will see an automatic over-steer correction; not enough to completely save the car, but enough to help, and crucially it is instantaneous making it difficult to ever lose the car.

You mean the wheel would begin automatically returning to its "straight line" position?

 

[Alan_G]

You mean the wheel would begin automatically returning to its "straight line" position?

No. If you are going around a left turn and suffer a bit of oversteer, the system automatically steers a bit to the right as oversteer correction. It's not enough to completely overt the slide, but the point is that it's instantaneous - it's embedded into the whole handling. It's like a taut piece of string. If you pull one end, the other end moves immediately.

 

[Biggles]

I'm not saying there isn't an assist with the pad, I'm saying that aside from whether there is or isn't a pad assist, the wheel imposes an extra layer of difficulty because of the lack of steering precision (which I strongly suspect is not the case with the pad).

I think there are 3 basic things that contribute to fast lap times:

Inherent ability.

Experience.

Controller inputs.

I think it's pretty clear that it's harder to be fast with a pad than a wheel in GT5TT. The fact that there are thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of entries world wide, & all the very fastest times (I think?) have been set with a wheel, in spite of the fact that most of the participants are using pads, seems to indicate that the wheel confers a small, but significant advantage - perhaps a second/lap.

In SCC, there are far (FAR!) fewer players setting lap times (in fact there seem to be approximately 17 in total ), so extrapolating a meaningful statistic out of the leaderboards is a lot harder. The wretched tuning option confuses the issue still more, but I would venture to say that the pad gives roughly a one second/lap (depends partly on the track) advantage over the wheel in SCC. Inherent ability obviously counts for more than a second/lap, & experience - having a really in-depth familiarity with the particular car on the particular track - also easily counts for more than a second/lap. So the wheel/pad difference certainly counts for much less than the ability/experience part of the equation.

Finally, age - my research indicates that each decade over 35 adds 1 second/lap - has to be factored in ...

 

[jjaisli]

Finally, age - my research indicates that each decade over 35 adds 1 second/lap - has to be factored in ...

So...if I read this correctly, you're trying to say that you're by far the fastest SCC racer out there? (Age corrected).

 

[Biggles]

So...if I read this correctly, you're trying to say that you're by far the fastest SCC racer out there? (Age corrected).

Exactement, mon ami! 👍

 

[Hun200kmh]

Touché ...

 

[hm66]

I don't usually brag about using the wheel and how difficult it is, etc. because in the end I still think that a good, skilled, wheel driver can match a good, skilled, pad driver. PiotrB taught us all that lesson in FC.

I have also seen good, skilled, pad drivers, people I used to battle for position, go completely backwards when changing to a wheel, and neve recovering their speed again. Biggles calls this the "RS Syndrome" referring to RSRacer, because that's exactly what happened to him. As far as I know, RSRacer has in fact given up completely on FC/SCC, because he just couldn't get back to the pad after using the wheel, but he never got to be competitive with the wheel. Go figure ... I just hope that doesn't happen with Estadios (meaning, either he gets competitive with the wheel, or he goes back to the pad, but not that he also quits in frustration).

In the end, it's a trade-off. With a wheel you have to be at your best or all your racing night can look like a nightmare. I'm sure Jeff and Biggles know what I'm talking about.

However, there is no possible comparison between wheel and pad in what concerns the pure pleasure you get from the experience of playing FC and SCC. Quite ironic, that the games that give you the best and rawest (hope this word exists) "wheel-experience", are also the games that punish you the most for that same experience.

PM - Still curious about Henrik's experience in all this. I know he keeps switching from wheel to pad to wheel again but he never told us anything about what he thinks about it or what are the consequences of using the wheel to his competitiveness.

hi mario
After I got used to the wheel I never concidered going back.
If I pratice enough I think I can manage to be level or around 1 sec slover a lap compared with the top times.In fact I think the wheel is better in the rain,but maby it's just my driving stile.I actually tryed ones to see if it would be better(faster) with the pad.I did 15 laps at infinion but my times was 5-6 sec slower.But even if it had been faster i would'nt trade.It's just to much fun with the wheel.

 

[Hun200kmh]

hi mario
After I got used to the wheel I never concidered going back.
If I pratice enough I think I can manage to be level or around 1 sec slover a lap compared with the top times.In fact I think the wheel is better in the rain,but maby it's just my driving stile.I actually tryed ones to see if it would be better(faster) with the pad.I did 15 laps at infinion but my times was 5-6 sec slower.But even if it had been faster i would'nt trade.It's just to much fun with the wheel.

That is very interesting Henrik. So, you think the wheel is better for rain driving? Could be, and it is logical considering that in general I lose a lot more time against pad drivers in grippier more extreme modern cars then it happens in the classics or road cars.

Now, one thing I got to ask you. You say that with the wheel you are level or 1 sec slower then the top times. But I'm more interested in knowing how do your wheel best times compare with your pad best times. Are you faster, slower or equal (on average, of course, it depends from car to car and track to track)

I really thought you were still using both ways of control, switching from one to the other as you wished , I see I was wrong. About being much more fun with the wheel and you having no temptation to go back to pad, I have no doubts!

 

[Alan_G]

Nah, I don't think one can say the pad has roughly 1 second/lap advantage! Obviously the circuit/car combination makes a difference, as you mentioned (a very, very big difference actually - we have 333SP doing Silverstone National in around 48 seconds, and on the other hand a 250TR doing Spa in around 2'58. So that's a very wide margin).

I think about it in terms of the limit of the lap per car. With the pad or wheel, the car has the same torque/power band, HP, cornering grip, weight transfer etc. So in theory, pad/wheel have the same lap-time capability The big difference is how easy/hard each respective input device can find the braking/cornering/acceleration limit. It seems to be more difficult with a wheel to find these limits; more difficult to control/position the car as you know is required, and I think enough of an increased difficulty to mean, practically, any wheel lap should be beat-able by a pad, even if just a couple of tenths.

Interesting to hear Henrick's comments there. We've been doing some 365GTS practice the last few days (default only). There was one race in particular at Mugello Sports where we had a close battle. I managed to finish in front of him (not by much), and I was absolutely giving it the max. His best lap was 1'11.08 I think. Excluding a slipstreamed lap that I had, my best was around 1'11.01. In a later race, I knocked a couple tenths off to around 1'10'84. NewSoul was also in the race; did low 1'11s as well.

 

[Biggles]

Nah, I don't think one can say the pad has roughly 1 second/lap advantage!

We'll only know for sure when you get your wheel.

The point is, ability & experience is counting for much more than controller differences, because I don't think anybody has run the hundreds of laps in SCC to really test the limits of performance the way they obviously have in the GT5TT. In any case, when it comes to racing, there is a distinction between the fastest single lap possible in SCC (which I suspect would be more or less the same with pad or wheel), & the actual lap times being put in on a consistent basis.

 

[hm66]

Nah, I don't think one can say the pad has roughly 1 second/lap advantage! Obviously the circuit/car combination makes a difference, as you mentioned (a very, very big difference actually - we have 333SP doing Silverstone National in around 48 seconds, and on the other hand a 250TR doing Spa in around 2'58. So that's a very wide margin).

I think about it in terms of the limit of the lap per car. With the pad or wheel, the car has the same torque/power band, HP, cornering grip, weight transfer etc. So in theory, pad/wheel have the same lap-time capability The big difference is how easy/hard each respective input device can find the braking/cornering/acceleration limit. It seems to be more difficult with a wheel to find these limits; more difficult to control/position the car as you know is required, and I think enough of an increased difficulty to mean, practically, any wheel lap should be beat-able by a pad, even if just a couple of tenths.

Interesting to hear Henrick's comments there. We've been doing some 365GTS practice the last few days (default only). There was one race in particular at Mugello Sports where we had a close battle. I managed to finish in front of him (not by much), and I was absolutely giving it the max. His best lap was 1'11.08 I think. Excluding a slipstreamed lap that I had, my best was around 1'11.01. In a later race, I knocked a couple tenths off to around 1'10'84. NewSoul was also in the race; did low 1'11s as well.

HI alan
Yes we did have some great races last week-end.Actually I think that the wheel drivers are closer to the pad drivers in the not so powerfull cars.Maby it's down to reactions.In the faster cars you need many times more corrections,and they need to be caried out much faster.

p.s to alan
If you didn't beat your time at silverstone (wet) i'm the only one who did 2:26
times.I dont know why but it seems the wheel is better in the rain.(and silverstone is my least favorite track)

 

[arvore]

I trade a fast DS3 for any slow whell...LOL

So you guys thought it was all gain and no pain,eh?

You enjoy the game more so you've to be punished and be slower,ha,ha

Tought not slow enought for me...

 

[Alan_G]

We'll only know for sure when you get your wheel.

Ah well, maybe I will be on average 1 second slower. But my point was that it's not like the wheel has an ultimate pace disadvantage of 1 second. It may be that kind of average currently in our races in a comparison, but in terms of ultimate pace, I think pad and wheel are theoretically the same, but practically maybe a few tenths apart (on a normal sized circuit).

I don't think anybody has run the hundreds of laps in SCC to really test the limits of performance the way they obviously have in the GT5TT. In any case, when it comes to racing, there is a distinction between the fastest single lap possible in SCC (which I suspect would be more or less the same with pad or wheel), & the actual lap times being put in on a consistent basis.

Hundreds of laps in SCC - it's not necessary! From a pad-user perspective, it's much easier to get near the limit quickly in SCC than GT, and also much easier to be consistent. Taking 365GTS at Mugello Sports - my best was 1'10.80 or something. In the race I did 10 times low 1'11, and similar for Henrick and NewSoul. I'm sure (or hope!) they will agree that much better than high 1'10 is not possible (with default). I don't accept that there's some kid in some bedroom in Japan who'll spend 100 hours and do a 1'08 or something - not possible in my opinion. Just because it happens in GT doesn't mean the same will happen in FC/SCC or even Toca RD3 at that.

 

[Biggles]

Hundreds of laps in SCC - it's not necessary! From a pad-user perspective, it's much easier to get near the limit quickly in SCC than GT, and also much easier to be consistent.

It's interesting that you would say that. You're implying that SCC doesn't have the depth of physics, the depth of variables, that GT5P/TTD has. I'm not sure that it IS easier to get near the limit quickly in SCC with a wheell, than it is in GT5P/TTD, & that may be an indication of the difference between using a wheel & a pad for SCC. However, I will say that in SCC it's easier to run fast laps without running off the track or spinning out, because in SCC (with a wheel & pedals) you can actually feel your way around the corners & make micro-adjustments based on that feel, whereas in GT5P/TTD you've got to rely more on trial & error.

Actually, I suspect that if there were tens of thousands of Japanese teenagers plugging away at SCC for hours on end, the way they are with the GT5TTD, you would see the SCC lap records start to go down by a significant amount.

 

[arvore]

Actually, I suspect that if there were tens of thousands of Japanese teenagers plugging away at SCC for hours on end, the way they are with the GT5TTD, you would see the SCC lap records start to go down by a significant amount.[/QUOTE]

OH! but that would be because of the straight eye "assist"...

 

[Alan_G]

I'm not sure that it IS easier to get near the limit quickly in SCC with a wheell, than it is in GT5P/TTD, & that may be an indication of the difference between using a wheel & a pad for SCC.

Good point.

Actually, I suspect that if there were tens of thousands of Japanese teenagers plugging away at SCC for hours on end, the way they are with the GT5TTD, you would see the SCC lap records start to go down by a significant amount.

Depends on which lap records, as the leaderboards have been wiped previously, and most of the car/circuit combinations are not very competitive. Assuming default setup, no assists and no slipstreaming, for any previous event car/circuit combinations, I'm very sure the top times won't be reduced by a significant amount.

Just take Mugello Sports/365GTS for an example - Several of us have been doing quite a lot of practice on this circuit. Using default setup, no assists and no slipstreaming, I would give 100 quid to anyone who can do a low 1'10, because I just don't think it's possible (I think NewSoul and Henrick may agree with me).

Just this evening actually, myself, NewSoul, Hairy-Dave and some others did a 15 lap race with this car/circuit. Before the race I said "I bet below high 1'10 is not possible. There's a challenge for you!". NewSoul said he believed a 1'09 was possible! In the race of course, nobody got near a 1'09. I shaved 1 tenth off my previous best, down to 1'10.6x, with NewSoul 1'11.1x I think.

But my point is, as I go through my lap I'm automatically looking out for corners/sections where I may have lost time. I'm quite confident that I got near the most out of all of the corners. I think about my braking points, lines, positioning of the car at all points in the lap, and I don't see anywhere that much time may have been lost. Yes, on the leaderboard at the top, currently there's one time with car setups, and another with maximum assists and possibly a car setup.

In GT5P/TT on the other hand, I see it all the time. Every time I exit a corner it's so obvious how I'm not carrying as much speed as should. Furthermore, due to the nature of steering with a small analogue stick with no FFB, time is lost mid corner simply by either understeering/scrubbing off speed from steering too much, or by not steering enough (i.e. not taking enough speed through). This is a positive reason why I would like to get a wheel for GT - due to the nature of the physics.

 

[Biggles]

I've no idea if you're right or not, BUT 15 laps is a joke by GT5TTD standards - I guarantee that there are people out there who have done many hundreds of laps at Indy Road & are still knocking off a few 10ths here & there. Until someone does the same obsessive lapping in SCC, I don't think you can be certain there isn't a significantly lower time (ie. half a second or more) possible.

 

[bullie77]

Interesting debate there about the differences between SCC vs GT5TT.

I'm learning to enjoy more the physics of GT5TT. Where I do believe it looses to SCC is in the FFB, specially on the way how SCC gives you through the wheel the feel of the road contact and the weight of the car (it's like you can 'feel' the wheels turning, like in a real car).

I think its more likeable that Biggles is right when he says that IF SCC had the same number of people playing as it has GT5TT, most likely someone would eventually get the 1:09 barrier at Mugello sports.

I believe that in racing a car (and in theory a car sim game) there are two limits: the car's and the driver's limits. Ultimately, the first is never achievable because the other one (the driver's) is always reached first. You can say you cannot go lower than high 1'10'', but you cannot say that none else on world would get 1'09'' - your driving limits prevents you to fully explore the car's limits on that track.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Apparently in the GT5 Academy Demo you can sort people by control method

Here you have the pad global (world) ranking. Again, lots of japanese at the top:

http://gtdb.net/?tt/pad

 

[chilledant]

Apparently in the GT5 Academy Demo you can sort people by control method

Here you have the pad global (world) ranking. Again, lots of japanese at the top:

http://gtdb.net/?tt/pad

Cool thats quite fast.. just a petty i am a Turtle.. Thanx Mario..

 

[Alan_G]

I've no idea if you're right or not, BUT 15 laps is a joke by GT5TTD standards

In SCC I have done around 300 laps at Mugello Sports. I have done around 200 laps on the full circuit. In FC I have done 100+ laps on the full circuit. Although these laps are spread across all cars, the time is found by knowing the circuit, and less so the car. When I referred to the 15 lap 365GTS race, this is on top of many previous laps either online or offline in that car.

The second thing is, as I have already said, if you properly understand how to do a reasonably fast lap, and you can place the car where intended around the lap, then not much more time can be found. And with such a short circuit such as Mugello Sports, in SCC I think it's easier to be very sure how much more time can be found (assuming no setups, assists or slipstreaming).

In GT5TT, if you tap the steering down the straight - could cost you a tenth by end of straight. If you steer a fraction too much round a corner, it might scrub off a tenth. It is much more finickity where you lose or gain time. So naturally putting in a lot of practice giving so much care and attention may bring about time gains.

 

[jjaisli]

I honestly don't have too much to add to this discussion because I have no basis for comparison. Since day one, I've always used a wheel, having purchased my wheel and PS3 together. And outside of racing sims, I don't really play any games. Aside from the livery editor, the ONLY thing I use the controller for is navigating the XMB and have never even attempted to use the Dual Shock to play. I probably have the most underused controller in PS3 land.

After reading through this thread, I'm actually tempted to start playing SCC with the controller just to see it from the other side and draw my own conclusions about the differences. But just like those going from the controller to a wheel, I'm sure it would take me many, many hours of practice to come to terms with it. And in my case, it would probably take me even longer than most since I don't do any gaming with the controller, the buttons & triggers don't naturally fall into place.

Likewise, as others have mentioned, SCC is a pleasure with a good FFB wheel like the G25/G27 and provides a very interesting, physical and visceral experience. It's just my personal opinion but I think those who race SCC with the controller are missing out on the very thing that makes this game so special. It's no comparison to Karting but with the FFB on high, a 20 lap race in this game can leave your arms feeling like wet noodles when you're back in the lobby and the adrenalin fades away. And there in lies my whole point and purpose of playing with the wheel--the enjoyment I derive from it. When I bought my PS3, I felt racing sims were becoming realistic enough and sophisticated enough to make them interesting and compelling. And using a wheel adds to that realism. Where as using the SixAxis only helps drive home the reality that it's still a game. That's the reason I use a wheel.

While I would prefer if there was more of a level playing ground between wheel and controller users, ultimately it doesn't bother me all that much. There will always be some truly fast guys out there who can blow us mere mortals to the winds and it doesn't matter what input device they're using. And as Biggles suggests, experience and skill factor much higher into one's pace than anything else. Either way, I suspect, if Eutechnyx would take away the additional steering assists, it would be hard for controller users to match wheel users lap times and the situation would be just the opposite of what we have now in SCC and similar to the way it is in GT5P/TT. And it's natural because a wheel and pedals give you a much wider range of input and on the whole, for most people it offers greater flexibility. Otherwise everybody would be driving cars in the real world with a Sixaxis. If that day should eventually come, I'm afraid I'm ill prepared for it.


For the record, I do actually have Lego Star Wars (a gift last year) and I've played it for all of 5-6 hours.

 

[Biggles]

(Jeff, if you want to get a fun non-racing game, you should try Little Big Planet. I think your daughter would enjoy watching it (IMO it's the most aesthetically inventive game I've come across) & may even be ready to pick up the pad & give it a try.)

In SCC I have done around 300 laps at Mugello Sports. I have done around 200 laps on the full circuit. In FC I have done 100+ laps on the full circuit. Although these laps are spread across all cars, the time is found by knowing the circuit, and less so the car. When I referred to the 15 lap 365GTS race, this is on top of many previous laps either online or offline in that car.

The second thing is, as I have already said, if you properly understand how to do a reasonably fast lap, and you can place the car where intended around the lap, then not much more time can be found. And with such a short circuit such as Mugello Sports, in SCC I think it's easier to be very sure how much more time can be found (assuming no setups, assists or slipstreaming).

In GT5TT, if you tap the steering down the straight - could cost you a tenth by end of straight. If you steer a fraction too much round a corner, it might scrub off a tenth. It is much more finickity where you lose or gain time. So naturally putting in a lot of practice giving so much care and attention may bring about time gains.

Well, to be honest, I wasn't supposing that you had only done 15 laps at Silverstone National! Obviously, experience plays a big part - I notice I am particularly off the pace at Riviera, because that is a circuit where I couldn't carry my FC experience over.

The second thing is, as I have already said, if you properly understand how to do a reasonably fast lap, and you can place the car where intended around the lap, then not much more time can be found.

Ahh ... now I see where I've been going wrong all this time! I should have been placing the car where intended, where all the time I've been focusing on placing it where unintended!

Seriously though, if you were engaged in a life-or-death struggle with thousands of other fast SCC racers (as in the GT5TTD), I suspect you would find ways to knock off a few 10ths here & there - especially on a more substantial track like Spa. However, as there isn't that intense competition, & in any case the leaderboards are all screwed up, there's no real incentive to try & whittle away those times - especially not when that whittling process is actually rather tedious & not much fun.

However, I'm here to tell you that it is, in fact (at least for those of us from planet Earth), rather difficult to consistently put the car where "intended" in SCC with a wheel, & that may be the difference between the wheel & the pad. Just as GT5TTD seems to make it harder for pad users to control the throttle, SCC may make it harder for wheel users to control the steering. Unlike GT5TTD, however, there just isn't enough statistical data to really confirm, or quantify that difference. If you get a wheel, I think you'd be able to explore & quantify that difference fairly quickly, but like Jeff, my own complete lack of experience with a pad would make it hard to make a meaningful comparison without my devoting many, many hours of practice.

 

[Biggles]

Well, I finally took matters into my own hands & gave SCC a try with the pad. Here are my conclusions:

It was immediately noticeable that the steering response was more predictable & precise. As I am completely unpracticed with the pad, my driving was pretty hopeless, but nevertheless I could see a BIG difference between the steering control - it was possible (theoretically) to put the car exactly where I wanted to. I think pad users would be shocked to learn how much play & uncertainty there is in the steering with a wheel, & if there were a similar situation with the pad, they would complain bitterly.

On the other hand, driving with a pad is unbelievably fiddly & keeping everything under control requires tremendous skill & manual dexterity. Obviously, there are many gamers who have grown-up using a pad, but for the average err... mature gamer that kind of skill could only be gained after hundreds, or even thousands of hours of pad use. My impression is, that whereas the steering control is much more precise & "faster", throttle control with a pad is much more difficult - there just isn't the same range of movement or sensitivity available as there is with a pedal set.

The other thing missing with a pad, is the thing that IMO actually makes FC/SCC so enjoyable - the feel of the FFB. With a wheel the FFB actually communicates, in a physical way, what the car is doing as you're cornering & accelerating & to some degree this offsets the unpredictability of the steering due to the "deadzone" issue. With the pad (as in GT5P/TTD with a wheel), you don't have the benefit of this extra "feel".

Overall, my experience trying the pad reinforces the impression I have from playing FC & SCC online: all the fastest FC/SCC players have been pad users. If you have the skill it's possible to be faster with the pad, because of the greater steering precision it allows. I didn't get a sense of any kind of "steering assist" with the pad (but that could be because I wasn't capable of driving anywhere near the limit), it's just that the wheel imposes a "steering unassist". Of course, if there were an influx of super-skilful wheel-users to SCC we might see the fastest pad times being challenged, (obviously Hendrik isn't far off), but I suspect, all things being equal, pad users have the upper-hand in SCC.

 

[chilledant]

Hi Biggles,, you mentioned throttle control is hard with DS3,, now in scc i find i have to roll my finger across the button to get 70 our 80% throttle on the exit of the apex, sum pad players use the 2 analogue sticks, were i find the buttons are easyer,, with SCC i can feel our lightly press it and know the cars throttle position, even when i brake i feel i am using 60 70 our 100% of the braking force. by how hard i push the button,, i know if i am braking wright our lighter the brakes tend to give a squeaking sound,, noticeably,, this is were scc is light years ahead of GT5TT, with GT5 there is no way i can pull that off,, i feel its like a switch, on our off,, no in between,, GT4 and 3 i could do it, not with GT5TT our GT5P,, great thread this,, loads of good debate's, i went to my friend he still has his ps2, i loaded gt3 first was on the pace within 2 our 3 laps and so with gt4, on the pad off course,, Thanx Ant

 

[Alan_G]

I think pad users would be shocked to learn how much play & uncertainty there is in the steering with a wheel, & if there were a similar situation with the pad, they would complain bitterly.

Yeah, I know that's what it is like. If play and uncertainty is realistic, then I would not complain about a pad being like this (I'm actually complaining that the pad is not like this!). While you have your pad plugged in, stick on GT5P, or GT5TT - have a look at the pad steering; you have to be precise with the steering input. This is one big thing i prefer about GT - much more challenging (and realistic from a pad perspective).

...throttle control with a pad is much more difficult - there just isn't the same range of movement or sensitivity available as there is with a pedal set.

I love controlling the throttle with the analogue stick. It's very, very comfortable. The reason it works with a pad is because you don't need to immediately and accurately hit a point on the throttle - you can just slowly squeeze it, and this works very well with the stick.

Braking can be a problem, on the other hand. If locking wheels can occur, then a lot of the time you need to accurately and immediately hit a point just below maximum brakes. This is really tough with a pad. It's not just down to experience. I find it completely impractical.

SCC has a bit of a life-line though; you can hit maximum brakes, seemingly lock up, but the braking power is still strong. If you want to turn in while braking (most corners), you do have to release brakes with control, like the reverse of squeezing the throttle. This works very well also in SCC on the stick.

The other thing missing with a pad, is the thing that IMO actually makes FC/SCC so enjoyable - the feel of the FFB.

It they made a controller with FFB sticks, I would use one! It sounds like a crazy idea - I've thought about that for a while and I'm sure it would work. Some may say "well it's that much closer to a wheel, just get a wheel!". But a big reason some people don't get a wheel is the practicality, among other reasons. Pad controllers with consoles are just a fact of life these days. Also, it's the same idea as the vibration function, except would be much more useful. Try GT5P or TT with a pad, and see how much of a help FFB would be on the analogue sticks - a very big help!

...all the fastest FC/SCC players have been pad users.

Well, there are so many more pad users than wheel users, it won't always be telling. But there's no doubt if SCC was much more popular, the top pad users are probably more likely to be faster than the top wheel users. I believe a lot of the reason is it taking more time to fine tune wheel laps to get the max out of the lap. I think it's more significant in actual races, where there's a bit of pressure to keep it on the road.

I didn't get a sense of any kind of "steering assist" with the pad...

There's no assist for steering into corners, if that's what you were thinking. It's just slight help for correcting oversteer. And also, the pad steering is modeled in a way to make adjustments easier on straights, but I probably wouldn't call it an assist - most games are done that way for pad handling.

 

[frawe]

I just want to give my experiences with a wheel to you.
I always played the game with a pad but now I have bought a Logitech wheel. My first impressions were horrible. It is a completely new behaviour. Whats the most annoying thing is, compared to a pad, the delayed reactions when I steer. Normally I had an immediately reaction from the car and I could point the car wherever I wanted it. With the wheel it is not possible. I always miss my corner entries and exits too. It is very difficult for me to keep the car under control even on straights. I am driving like I had drunk too much, from the left to the right and vice versa. This makes it hard to control the car, because of the delayed reactions it ends mostly off track. But not all is negative. It is the first time when I feel the wheels locking up on braking thanks Force Feedback. So I know exactly when to loose the brakes a little which was not the case with a pad. I think it needs some time to get familiar with the wheel. A curious note: in GT5P I didnt have these problems with a wheel.