General LSD Settings

[TwinturboCH]

Correction, 5/60/60 is welded (ie. locked after 5 ft/lbs of initial torque) , 60/60/60 is 2-way (ie. locked after 60 ft/lbs of initial torque).

In otherwards, if there is 300 ft/lbs of torque available in the case of the lesser initial torque, the LSD will be locked at 5 ft/lbs and will stay locked for 295 ft/lbs if driver floors it.

In the second senario with also 300 ft/lbs of torque, prior to 60 ft/lbs of torque the LSD is free wheeling (left & right) until that pressure of 60 is reached. Then it will be locked for 240 ft/lbs, if floored.

This operation is consistent with dragging, drifting and cornering.

No, the 'initial' setting is how much the diff is locked prior to any outside input, i.e. when the clutch is dipped, so no acceleration or deceleration input force, and that would tie in with my experimentation of different settings, i.e. the back end comes back into line faster when dipping the clutch on '5' compared to '60', so basically, you have it the wrong way round.

 

[DKLion3s]

Sorry but you're uh...wrong. You have this backwards. Just go try it in game...if you can't tell what a locked diff feels like then you need more time behind the wheel :X

No, the 'initial' setting is how much the diff iss locked prior to any outside input, i.e. when the clutch is dipped, so no acceleration or deceleration input force, and that would tie in with my experimentation of different settings, i.e. the back end comes back into line faster when dipping the clutch on '5' compared to '60'

Guys, no disrespect. But you may want to check this again. LSDs do not apply torque to themselves without the drive-shaft input, hence torque.

TT, what you mentioned is correct in that when set to 5 the rear comes back inline faster, that's due in fact to the LSD driving both wheels in a locked state much faster than at 60, it allows less slippage from either side.

 

[DaveM-sport]

Yep, the initial setting is the initial pre-load of the diff.

the acceleration and deceleration is basically referring to the ramps then.


For example, a diff with high pre-load in real life will always be very tight even when not "locked"

A diff with increased ramps in either acceleration or deceleration will be tighter when the diff is after locking and the more aggressive the ramps the more the torque will be split evenly across both wheels.

For example, (sorry if this goes over the head of some or off-topic but it might help alittle bit) I rebuild quite a few BMW LSDs for roadcars when I find an evening or two free every so often.

As standard, the diff has a certain pre-load (can't remember the rate off hand now) by the spring plates putting pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff before it even starts working at all (this would be the inital value)

I could increase this by either putting extra plates in the diff and not quite machining the casing of the diff to allow for the extra thickness so that the spring plate is under more compression when unit is bolted back together.

Or I could use a stronger spring plate.




For the acceleration and deceleration values (ramps) I machine the ramp angles of the thrust plates which hold the cross pins so they ride up easier when the diff is locked which will again put more force on the clutch plates and transmit more torque to the free-wheeling wheel.

If I want a 1.5way, I machine the acceleration side of the ramps more.


originally, the stock units are 25% (transmit 25% torque to the wheel that isn't spinning) so I usually increase them to 40% for road-cars but I leave the pre-load (initial value) as is so when the lsd isn't locked it behaves just like standard so the balance of the car won't be effected such as understeer in turn in etc when not driving at full chat or so the inside wheel won't be skipping about or being a nuisance when parking etc.


For my drift car, I'm making a 75% 2-way with extra plates and little bit of extra pre-load however

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

Guys, no disrespect. But you may want to check this again. LSDs do not apply torque to themselves without the drive-shaft input, hence torque.

TT, what you mentioned is correct in that when set to 5 the rear comes back inline faster, that's due in fact to the LSD driving both wheels in a locked state much faster than at 60, it allows less slippage from either side.

You're confused bro, the wheels unlocking and turning at different rates is what allows the rear end to regain grip. In a corner the outside wheel needs to rotate faster than the inside wheel, if the diff locks then it's sliding. That's why you want em to lock up to drift.

 

[DKLion3s]

@ DaveM, yes that's it. You're basically setting triggers for the three ports in the LSD. The first trigger being the initial torque, once that criteria is met for your setting then the ramps are triggered accordingly, wether you set it (LSD) agressive on accel or decel.

 

[DaveM-sport]

Guys, no disrespect. But you may want to check this again. LSDs do not apply torque to themselves without the drive-shaft input, hence torque.

TT, what you mentioned is correct in that when set to 5 the rear comes back inline faster, that's due in fact to the LSD driving both wheels in a locked state much faster than at 60, it allows less slippage from either side.

In a sense, no....
But.... The LSD still has an initial torque loading (pre-load) that is holding the clutch-plates against eachother locking the wheels to a certain extent before you even put any power to the input shaft.

If anybody still doesn't quite understand, I can go out to the workshop and do a quick video of how much "torque" it takes to turn a output shaft on a diff with the other side locked in a vice and show the the oily bits inside too

And secondly, I'm afraid you still have it backwards... If the wheels are in a locked state much faster, the car will be less inclined to snap back the other way or get grip to pull out of a drift quickly.

if the diff is allowed to open slightly, the car will react more to leaving off throttle and follow the direction of the front wheels.


For example, if your drifting a car with an open diff once you have a nice angle and both wheels actually spinning on the rare occasion everything is all nice until you leave off the throttle when the diff suddenly remembers its an open diff and you'll end up loosing the drift and probably fishtailing uncontrollably in some cases as each wheel alternatively gets abit of grip out of the corner/roundabout etc (Ahh... the days of when I was learning to drift but didn't want to weld the diff on my first car )

with a welded diff, the car is alot more settled at a good angle and can hold drifts far longer and easier however but as CH has said once you really over-cook it you may spin out more often even if you lift completely.

with the open diff or mild LSD, the car will straight easier but its just holding the drift upto the point where the car is on the edge of spinning is far harder.

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

@ DaveM, yes that's it. You're basically setting triggers for the three ports in the LSD. The first trigger being the initial torque, once that criteria is met for your setting then the ramps are triggered accordingly, wether you set it (LSD) agressive on accel or decel.

OK you realize that DaveM just agreed with TTCH and myself, right?

Edit: nevermind, he beat me to it and clarified lol

 

[Lennan82]

you're confused bro, the wheels unlocking and turning at different rates is what allows the rear end to regain grip. In a corner the outside wheel needs to rotate faster than the inside wheel, if the diff locks then it's sliding. That's why you want em to lock up to drift.

+1

 

[DKLion3s]

In a sense, no....
But.... The LSD still has an initial torque loading (pre-load) that is holding the clutch-plates against eachother locking the wheels to a certain extent before you even put any power to the input shaft.

That isn't torque, it's called your trigger. It's no different than setting a weight limit on a scale, any weight added to the opposing side of the scale lighter than the set weight will not cause any significant reaction, until the weight starts to approach and/or surpass the set weight.

The plates, pins and springs have been measured to a base torque setting, much like a rat trap. They don't apply any torque.

If anybody still doesn't quite understand, I can go out to the workshop and do a quick video of how much "torque" it takes to turn a output shaft on a diff with the other side locked in a vice and show the the oily bits inside too

No need, just go on YT, there's plenty to choose from.

And secondly, I'm afraid you still have it backwards... If the wheels are in a locked state much faster, the car will be less inclined to snap back the other way or get grip to pull out of a drift quickly.

I beg to differ, as a locked diff inevitably fights against slipping wheels. Drifting is basically overpowering the LSD via centrifugal & inertial forces and using the locked state of the LSD to control the slide, by promoting more forward inertia to side inertia or tendency to tailspin centrifugally.

if the diff is allowed to open slightly, the car will react more to leaving off throttle and follow the direction of the front wheels.

In this case you're allowing the forces to balance and stabillize.

 

[DaveM-sport]

Hence why I put torque in inverted commas or a least I did the first time I started typing the post... Fecking iPhone acting up!
Don't think anybody here said the diff itself actually made torque(unless they've found something pretty special) but more referring to the torque (i.e the torque supplied by the engine to the input shaft and then to the spinning wheel) it transfers across to the opposite wheel (outside or whichever wheel has more grippt resistance and spinning less) under acceleration, deceleration and in initial "un-locked" state
An LSD doesn't fight against sliding really though especially when the car is already initiated into a slide and the wheels are spinning. What your saying is a locked differential doesn't promote sliding? That's like saying pulling the handbrake as a car starts to spin is going to make it easier to steer!

Don't know about you but a locked differential has only done two things in my experience of them...

1. Make steering and directions changes abit harder when going slow or excessive understeer on some vehicles

2. Make the car far more tailhappy under power or deceleration when steering input is applied and easy to hold slides as well as having good forward traction while doing so.

An open diff will always improve the abilty of a car to change direction quickly and be more responsive to steering input as your allowing the rear wheels to turn in their repsectice arcs more freely.

Which is why a car with an open diff will straighten quicker and sometimes too quicky than a car with a welded diff or aggressive 2-way but crap for holding drifts as you don't get the forward traction from both wheels spinning and the diff being too unstable when both wheels are on the point of slipping.


Some people say welded diffs are more predictable and prefer them to LSDs but it's just because they never used a proper LSD or one in good condition. A good LSD provides the best of both worlds where it will act like a locked diff when your power and deceleration so long drifts can be held with good forward speed as well as good initiation under heavy deceleration with the aid of a little weight transfer to the front but still being able to adjust drifts alittle better as it will be able to open a desired amount (set in the pre-load) when needed as well as staying open to allow the car be more responsive to direction changes when in more neutral driving.

 

[Kin869]

There's a lot of good information here! I had a basic understanding of what a LSD can do, but I definitely learned something new after reading this thread. Thanks for posting guys!

Guys, no disrespect. But you may want to check this again. LSDs do not apply torque to themselves without the drive-shaft input, hence torque.

TT, what you mentioned is correct in that when set to 5 the rear comes back inline faster, that's due in fact to the LSD driving both wheels in a locked state much faster than at 60, it allows less slippage from either side.

I agree with DaveM-sport, TakeshiSkunk, and TwinturboCH. If the rear wheels are locked, then the rear slips more because the outside wheel is "slipping" to keep up with the inside wheel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this may be a good test: Pick any FR car with an adjustable LSD in GT5, and try to do donuts with the LSD Accel set to the max (locked) and try again with the LSD Accel set to zero (Unlocked). With the LSD Accel set to max (locked), you can actually do proper donuts with the rear slipping.

 

[DKLion3s]

Okay guys, I think I've found a way to effectively purvey my position with regards to the operation of the LSD in a drift situation, and I do understand why most, if not all, my interpret my description as being reversed. Bare with me as I go through the motions.

Here's a Link, that I may refer to on occassion, maybe. It is a simplified description of the various differential types.

I liken the LSD in a drift situation as to a human caught in a current (undertow) at the beach. Bare with me, I'll elaborate.

Generally when an individual (swimmer) gets caught by a surprise current (undertow), their first reaction is to work against the current in order to get away from it, by doing so they exert a tremendous amount of energy against the direction they're travelling, which is basically sweeping them away.

I do understand this may not be the best analogy, but bare with me. Okay, so as the link posted mentions the initial reason for differentials is to route power/torque to both wheels of the driving axle, while allowing them to travel independently of each other. The inherent flaw of open diffs is it routes that power/torque to whichever wheel slips more, which isn't very useful in a number of situations.

Hence, steps in the various forms of LSD available which counteracts the flaw of an open diff. LSDs on the other hand routes the most power/torque to the wheel that does have traction while still allowing them to travel at seperate rates.

All the GT series have a basic algorithym for a basic functioning LSD, meaning there is no fully LOCKED LSD within any of the game series. So, we try to mimic as closely as possible what would be considered a LOCKED/UNLOCKED state, by varying the settings provided in game. Yeah, I know this is mostly redundant stuff, but if you're still reading, hang with me a little longer.

As I mentioned earlier, LSDs in a drift situation is similar to a swimmer caught in a sweeping current (undetow) at the beach. And let me explain why I say this.

LSDs were designed to find traction when needed should a vehicle/driver get caught by a surprise "lack of traction" situation. I know most, if not all of you are with me there? So here it is now the LSD finds itself in a situation (drifting) where the driver deliberately wants the rear axle to slip, "wth?" is probably the first reaction of the LSD, "gotta find traction". Which is what it is designed to do.

Okay, so LSD finds itself being overpowered by a "madman", figuratively speaking, at the helm. The driver has several ways & techniques at hand to overpower the normal design operation of the LSD. He can utillize power/torque (hp), use hard rubber tyres, or just plain violently change directional headings, or any combination thereof, to the LSDs dismay.

In all this the LSD is reacting just as a swimmer would in opposing current, fighting the tendency of slipping. But as it fights to regain traction, the "madman" at the helm is saying, "no, not this time." So, the LSD does what it does best, routing power/torque to the wheel that is slipping less. Now because a drift is so un-natural to a LSD, meaning both wheels are slipping at various rates, it starts to oscillate power/torque between both sides in an attempt to gain traction. Which as we my realize, the Helmsman needs to happen to some degree, in order to have some control over the now chaotic situation that exists, drifting.

If you're still with me so far, then here's an additional experiment. With your current drift settings, replace the tyres (N*, S*, tyre types) at the rear, and I'm guessing that most drift with FR cars, with RS or RSS tyres. If your setting are as they should be for drifting, then you should be able to overpower the LSD in a similar manner as described in my presentation, wow, what a long read, and all is good.

However, if you are not mimicing a locked state for the LSD, then overpowering the LSD, with RS/RSS, becomes more difficult, in that the LSD is in it's element of control over traction.

This experiment will determine wether or not a maximum or minimum initial torque setting is best to mimic a "LOCKED LSD". Once you can successfully overpower the LSD then, you're in good shape, settings wise.

For me, I've only been able to gain successfull "overpowering" with the minimal setting for the intial torque value of the LSD, utillizing RS/RSS tyres.

I do appreciate those of you who have debated, bystand, criticized, or just in general shared your own interpretation and understanding of the LSD operation.


Regards to all. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Edit: I hope this helps in understanding my position in this debate.

 

[DaveM-sport]

An LSD doesn't transfer most of the power to the wheel with more grip. It transfers a percentage of torque that is already being supplied to the spinning wheel.


The reason you can over-power the LSD easier when the initial value is at 5 is because the diff is staying open longer and your able to provoke at least one wheel to break traction easier.

An LSD prevents slipping in terms of a variation in wheel speed between each driven wheel. In no way does an LSD prevent slipping or drifting in terms of the car itself. Only thing that prevents a car from drifting is use of alternating braking force to appropriate wheels, i.e; EBD, ASM etc

Putting it relatively basic terms... As Im too tired to think of a better way of describing it

An LSDs main job is to provide constant forward traction. Even when steering it still try's to maintain forward traction which is why a car with an LSD will do donuts easier as the rear wheels are trying to go in a straight line but it's only the front wheels that are forcing the car to spin around.

When drifting it's more or less the same principal only that yo have a diferent steering input such as opposite lock to stop the car spinning around.

 

[DKLion3s]

An LSD doesn't transfer most of the power to the wheel with more grip. It transfers a percentage of torque that is already being supplied to the spinning wheel.

51:49 = 51 (most)

The reason you can over-power the LSD easier when the initial value is at 5 is because the diff is staying open longer and your able to provoke at least one wheel to break traction easier.

At no point did I utillize "prevent".

An LSD prevents slipping in terms of a variation in wheel speed between each driven wheel. In no way does an LSD prevent slipping or drifting in terms of the car itself. Only thing that prevents a car from drifting is use of alternating braking force to appropriate wheels, i.e; EBD, ASM etc

The LSD doesn't prevent anything. It works to gain traction, whilst allowing individual rotational speed and travel.

Putting it relatively basic terms... As Im too tired to think of a better way of describing it

I can relate. I try to keep it as basic as possible, so as to allow a new to subject person a basic grasp.

An LSDs main job is to provide constant forward traction. Even when steering it still try's to maintain forward traction which is why a car with an LSD will do donuts easier as the rear wheels are trying to go in a straight line but it's only the front wheels that are forcing the car to spin around.

I would remove "forward" from this statement, seeing that it also does this whilst moving a vehicle in reverse.

Not sure if you ever observed fishtailing before. But, FR cars have a tendency of the rear trying to pass the front, even if there is no turning input from the driver.

When drifting it's more or less the same principal only that yo have a diferent steering input such as opposite lock to stop the car spinning around.

Can you elaborate here? Please!

Thanks for endulging me.

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

Dude..I don't understand what you're trying to get at with this long winded and impressively convoluted string of analogies and suggestions.

An LSD doesn't create grip or anything, it just locks the rear wheels together when one begins to slip. The permanent lock is desirable when drifting because it prevents one wheel regaining grip and giving you snap oversteer. Really it's pretty easy to tell whether or not your differential is permanently locked.

You do realize that TwinturboCH is a real life professional drifter, right? Don't you think he can tell whether or not the rear end is locked?

Honestly at this point you're just making yourself look bad

 

[speedthrill]

I would love to see only good explanations in this thread because 1st page was really informal, thanks for that Twinturbo!
If you have some more info please throw it on the table, it helps alot.

Aimed at other people around here: Please, do not see every thread you don't agree with as a thread to argue...
We're trying to figure out here what LSD is, not WHO knows it best...

For all i know you guys may be using different words to get to the same goal.👍

Anyway, since it's not that clear yet in GT5 what does what, it seems, i looked it up myself a couple of weeks ago in the GT4 section,
and i am now drifting 60/60/60 on most cars, first thing i do now.
Seems to work, i can slide longer and apply more angle and grip when i want too,
the car seems to be generally slower than others around me though.

 

[Afro1]

All I can see is ranting about what the LSD does and stuff.
Can anyone just tell me those most effective LSD setting for drifting lol?
I previously used it with the default setting, then I moved onto 5,60,60 (which in my opinion, made the car worse) and now I'm stuck.

 

[ZSPaulus]

i have most of mine at 10/60/60 which is perfect for me.. Someone told me to put them at 60/60/60; you could try that but it didnt work for me..

 

[ZSPaulus]

ok now im really lost.

I used to drift as stated above, then went away for the weekend and now its all gone pear shaped..

After reading the GT5 LSD settings manual; im even more confused.

I dont have the tekst here; but it seems to contradict itself and uses different terms for the same effects..

So for the first number my interp is that its the amount of force neccasary to go into the amount of lock that you specify in the second and third numbers.
Those represent a value that is the amount of lock/slip applied when the first number applies.

Am i correct there?

That would mean; 5/60/60 would mean a fully welded diff right? at the slightest input it goes into full lock. (why cant the number be zero?) But when i have my settings like that people tell me they see my wheel struggling to loose grip..

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

ok now im really lost.

I used to drift as stated above, then went away for the weekend and now its all gone pear shaped..

After reading the GT5 LSD settings manual; im even more confused.

I dont have the tekst here; but it seems to contradict itself and uses different terms for the same effects..

So for the first number my interp is that its the amount of force neccasary to go into the amount of lock that you specify in the second and third numbers.
Those represent a value that is the amount of lock/slip applied when the first number applies.

Am i correct there?

That would mean; 5/60/60 would mean a fully welded diff right? at the slightest input it goes into full lock. (why cant the number be zero?) But when i have my settings like that people tell me they see my wheel struggling to loose grip..

Nah, it's understandable why you would think it was like that because the settings are a bit ambiguous in the menu, but you sort of have it backwards.

The first value that you set is the static load being exerted on the clutches at all times without any extenal input to lock the wheels together. This force would be applied to lock up the rear wheels even if the car was turned off and parked. If you set it to 5 then by default it will almost act as an open differential, but if the setting is at 60 then the rear end is pretty much locked at all times.

Just set the diff up to 60/60/60 and go for a test run, it should be pretty clear that the diff is locked up, you'll have a lot more fun drifting 👍

 

[zedfonsie]

I just did a locked diff ( 60 inital 60 accel and decel)
It drifts very smoothly now The mid-drift and exiting the corner has been improved.

 

[notveryhappyjac]

drifting?
5
60
60
/thread

 

[SKOT_FREE]

After reading through this thread I'm even more confused! Anyone have any LSD settings for Drift cars?

 

[DaveM-sport]

Nah, it's understandable why you would think it was like that because the settings are a bit ambiguous in the menu, but you sort of have it backwards.

The first value that you set is the static load being exerted on the clutches at all times without any extenal input to lock the wheels together. This force would be applied to lock up the rear wheels even if the car was turned off and parked. If you set it to 5 then by default it will almost act as an open differential, but if the setting is at 60 then the rear end is pretty much locked at all times.

Just set the diff up to 60/60/60 and go for a test run, it should be pretty clear that the diff is locked up, you'll have a lot more fun drifting 👍

Spot on.

Initial means what it says on the tin as in initial lock without any turning force being put on the input shaft and same for acceleration and deceleration such as at 60 in each case you'll have that rate when diff is under load from the input shaft (engine) when accelerating or output shafts (wheels) under deceleration.


On a real diff just to give an idea how this is done, intial (pre-load) is made by having spring plates putting pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff and as a result make it harder for the wheels to slip at different speeds to eachother under static load.

Acceleration and deceleration is got by having the cross pins that hold the gears inside the diff on basically a machined plate that the pins can ride up on when acceleration or decceleration force is applied. The easier the pins are allowed to ride up this plate by having a different angle, the more
The diff locks in that direction ie: acceleration or deceleration.

I'll try upload pictures of what I'm talking about soon.




For a drift car, locked diff is always better as TakeshiSkunk has covered.

Only dissadvantge is that a diff locked in all three states makes the car alittle less responsive to direction changes when needed when car is in a neutral state when no force is being applied to the rear wheels (both Accelerationg and decceleration are forces obviously from the engine)

This is why TwinturboCH said a proper LSD rather than a welded one is much better for drifting as the car is more responsive to your inputs on entry to the corner and through it when you want to adjust the angle.

People may say a welded diff is better as ut shouldn't open half way through a drift like an LSD... Answer to that is, they aren't really that good at drifting as you should really by only off throttle once on the corner an on it progressively for the rest (depending on type of corner obviously as some get tighter and slow right down such as tear drops) or they just have a crap LSD



In GT5, you can't really have a welded diff as the most you can go is 60 in any setting so it's really down to which setting suits you and the car best and only will really know from testing it and just trial and error.

For a controller, 60/60/60 seems good on every car from my experience and maybe playing around with the initial then if you find the car hard to intiate or adjust angle mid drift.

When using a wheel, you generally have much more control over the car since you can use te clutch for corrections too so the diff settings can make a more noticeable difference such as if you set the initial a little lower, pressing the clutch mid drift can help keep you from spinning out sometimes and keeping the drift going if you get the timing right.

Intiations are also alittle easier when having a lower initial force if your not using the handbrake as the car has less tendency to understeer.

 

[Forcone]

These are the things I hate in Gran Turismo. There are soooo many things done idiotically compared to say, Live For Speed. (Was going to say Forza, but realized that could be a mistake.) Would have loved to see the kind of LSD settings seen in LFS in GT5 as well - now they were straightforward!

Back to this argument. I personally have so many many times thought this over and never come to any proper conclusion just by reading the explanations in the game. Just by experimenting I've concluded that the 60/60/60 diff is the "locked" one. Now reading this, I really have to turn my PS3 on and see what is what.

I still would bet that I've been correct "all these years". Have to see, maybe I make some rubbish video and post it so we can argue about it a bit more, eh?

 

[Warren4649]

Sorry to bump that but recently I've been messing a lot with my diff settings.
Especially on one of my supra RZ (500+hp).
I used to go 60/60/60 on all my cars but what bothers me is that the car understeers on high speed drifts (5th gear initiations).
So far I tried multiple initial torque values but it made the car snappier and less predictable. I use a wheel (g27) but not the clutch as it is not made properly in gt5.

 

[BkS]

I only started out using LSDs in GT5 a couple of days ago. I've found for me, the perfect setting is 15/45/25. I guess this acts somewhat similar to a 1.5 diff.

I've found some really helpful info in this thread, thanks to Dave & TwinturboCH. Now I shall go test some more settings out.

 

[Stavingo]

I only started out using LSDs in GT5 a couple of days ago. I've found for me, the perfect setting is 15/45/25. I guess this acts somewhat similar to a 1.5 diff.

I've found some really helpful info in this thread, thanks to Dave & TwinturboCH. Now I shall go test some more settings out.

1.5 Diff? Never heard that one before, care to explain?

 

[SPANK]

1.5 way diff\/

1.5

 

[Jesus]

1.5 Diff? Never heard that one before, care to explain?

Like a 2way but calms down on de-acceleration to keep the back end in the right place hence the 0.5.
To save me going through lots of threads, does anyone know the LSD setting for a locked diff. Ive been using 5/5/60 which I thought was locked but now I believe its wrong?