Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

[McLaren]

That's a better job supporting your ridiculous position. But it's still ridiculous.

What's the Difference Between a Windmill and a Wind Turbine?

Windmills and wind turbines work on the same core principle to convert wind into energy, but one creates mechanical energy while the other creates electricity. Here's how they work.

science.howstuffworks.com

What Is the Difference Between a Windmill & a Wind Turbine?

Windmills and wind turbines both harness wind energy and put it to practical use. The difference is in how they do it: One is a machine with mechanics powered by the wind, the other generates electricity for use elsewhere.

sciencing.com

Wind Turbine vs Windmill: Do You Know the Difference?

What's the difference between wind turbine vs windmill? Renewable energy guru Steph Cole sets the record straight, and explains in simple terms...

theroundup.org

Difference Between Windmill and Wind Turbine

The use of renewable energy sources such as wind energy for generation of electricity is not a new technology. In fact, it draws on the rediscovery of a centuries-old tradition of wind power technology. It’s

www.differencebetween.net

Wind Turbines vs. Windmills: What’s the Difference? - Today's Homeowner

Windmills, turbines… they’re the same…right? Wrong! While wind turbines are the modern predecessor to traditional windmills, the two structures

todayshomeowner.com

Windmill vs Wind Turbine: Difference and Comparison

A windmill is a traditional machine used to convert wind energy into mechanical power, while a wind turbine is a modern machine used to generate electricity from wind energy. Windmills have been used for centuries to grind grain, pump water, and perform other tasks, while wind turbines are used...

askanydifference.com

The History of Wind Power | TurbineGenerator

Follow the history of wind from windmills to modern day wind turbine generators. Information covering ancient wind power history to present day wind technology.

www.turbinegenerator.org

What is a Wind Turbine and How Do Wind Turbines Produce Electricity?

Wind turbines are a great way to provide a source of clean energy for your home or business. Wind turbines are the evolution of the classic windmills that can be seen in more rural areas of the world.

www.conserve-energy-future.com

https://www.sierraclub.org/texas/energy/wind (this one actually explains that windmills are more correctly referred to as windpumps when they're used to pump water)


This is trivial. I just go down the list of google results, all of them say that what you're relying on is an incorrect usage of the term that is admittedly common enough to be recognizable. It demonstrates a lack of familiarity with the technology. Exactly the thing you'd hope not to demonstrate when you making a (wrong) claim about the technology.

[

Uh, the global elite clearly control all these websites.

Therefore, my smugness is right. Or something something nonsense.

 

[Exorcet]

I suggested no such thing.

You very clearly said such a thing:

It’s the only reason anything happens. You might have to use some imagination to derive the point i’m making.

The second sentence doesn't save you either. The first one still says what it says.

What i said was interpreted that way, very wrongly.

People can only interpret what you type, not what you think.

It’s pretty amusing when someone reads something they disagree with on the internet they get so emotional about it that they take it personally. They get defensive about it as if it was an insult or a personal attack. That’s pretty interesting. I wonder if that phenomena has a name yet?

You don't have to get riled up about an internet discussion.

Businesses only do things for profit, was the point I was making. All these businesses that are making millions, billions, inventing new and improved ways of saving the world, are only doing so because it’s making them a lot of money. You think you know how much ’free’ electricity they actually generate? How do you know? Have you measured it? And the same with how ‘little’ energy it takes to manufacture. Who told you that, exactly? The website of a windmill manufacturer? Don’t believe a word of it.

Then I guess you can prove this right, that nothing but profit has motivated every business that has ever been. Even if a business is for profit, that doesn't mean that they can't also be altruistic. Profit also helps when you're trying to do something that costs money.

 

[Hayden]

Nice. I have a 12.25kw system and supposedly it will produce ~15mWh of power/year. I'm not so sure I will hit that number or not. Its still early and we've had a cloudy September so far. But its all about averages, I suppose. Cant look at one day and jump to the conclusion that the system is not working right. My approximate payback date is 2.5 years, but it may be closer to 4 years if I can only make 12mWh/year.

Mine is “only” 10.6KWH so I think you should hit your 15MWH/y. The production ramps up significantly during clear sky summer days so I wouldn’t panic yet. Keep in mind, I’m in Australia…

I’m on target to hit the 2.5 year payback date as well. I was pretty shocked when I first did the sums. It’s a very easy investment decision when it returns so quick, and keeps working for 20+ years.

After it’s squared off, I’ll review battery tech again. It’s not quite justifiable yet, but it’s moving very fast!

 

[Tommy_D]

Mine is “only” 10.6KWH so I think you should hit your 15MWH/y. The production ramps up significantly during clear sky summer days so I wouldn’t panic yet. Keep in mind, I’m in Australia…
View attachment 1287254
I’m on target to hit the 2.5 year payback date as well. I was pretty shocked when I first did the sums. It’s a very easy investment decision when it returns so quick, and keeps working for 20+ years.

After it’s squared off, I’ll review battery tech again. It’s not quite justifiable yet, but it’s moving very fast!

Yeah, I just turned my system on in late August. I'm In Chicago, IL, USA. So middle/north side of the United States. I likely dont get as many peak hours of sun as you do and my house faces primarily east/west. I only have 4 panels that face south. My solar guy said to wait until spring to really see some good results. I tried to do a 100% offset system but we will see how it goes. If I lived closer to work I wouldn't need to use so much electricity to charge my car. That is about 40% of my total energy usage, so if I drove less I could easily get a 100% offset. it's just not in the cards yet. I'm working on trying to go in to the office less.

 

[Tired Tyres]

New files shed light on ExxonMobil’s efforts to undermine climate science

Executives privately sought to downplay link between fossil fuels and climate change despite public pronouncements, WSJ reports

www.theguardian.com

 

[Danoff]

you’re left with a load of stuff that’s not recyclable. Windmills in particular, they’re huge and there’s thousands of them popping up on a daily basis. You only get 10 years out of them, and then all they can do with them is chop them up and bury them. The more they produce, the bigger the problem becomes.

I didn't hit this little bit of misinformation as hard as I could have. Almost everything in this quote is incorrect. Wind turbines blades are made from carbon fiber. They last much longer than 10 years (the article puts them at 25 years design life to prevent blades from failing), and then they can be recycled.

A new rotation for turbine blades

“Mostly, they go through a lot of cycles,” Hadigheh explains. “They are constantly turning. So, just as you see cracks and dings in a car after a few years,

cosmosmagazine.com

 

[Tommy_D]

I thought those wind turbines used Fiberglass blades. I've seen and heard of those blades getting beat to hell over the years and needing (what seems to be) frequent replacement. I'm looking at photos of this going, "who is the moron who can't think to put a 18ga layer of aluminum on that leading edge? You could get 2-3 times the lifespan on those blades if you made the leading edge stronger."

 

[Danoff]

I thought those wind turbines used Fiberglass blades. I've seen and heard of those blades getting beat to hell over the years and needing (what seems to be) frequent replacement. I'm looking at photos of this going, "who is the moron who can't think to put a 18ga layer of aluminum on that leading edge? You could get 2-3 times the lifespan on those blades if you made the leading edge stronger."

You can see from the article that the engineers that design wind turbines are aware of current available materials.

 

[Tommy_D]

You can see from the article that the engineers that design wind turbines are aware of current available materials.

Yeah, I read it. They didn't really mention anything about strengthening the leading edge to prevent wear and increase service life. It mostly spoke about recycling measures and relying on resins for strength. I'm seeing images like this and thinking, "WTF guys? Here's your wear point. Might want to think about how to make that area last longer."

I'm sure they are looking into this, but it sounds like they want to do it by spraying special chemicals that are wear resistant. I would think some light gauge aluminum would probably work better than any special sprayed on "paint". I mean, airplanes have wings made of metal. The leading edge moves at 500+ mph for 10's of hours a day for years. You never hear about the rampant deterioration of airplane wings. They just keep on going.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah, I read it. They didn't really mention anything about strengthening the leading edge to prevent wear and increase service life. It mostly spoke about recycling measures and relying on resins for strength. I'm seeing images like this and thinking, "WTF guys? Here's your wear point. Might want to think about how to make that area last longer."

I'm sure they are looking into this, but it sounds like they want to do it by spraying special chemicals that are wear resistant. I would think some light gauge aluminum would probably work better than any special sprayed on "paint". I mean, airplanes have wings made of metal. The leading edge moves at 500+ mph for 10's of hours a day for years. You never hear about the rampant deterioration of airplane wings. They just keep on going.

These kinds of engineering designs usually involve a spiderweb of tradeoffs - from cost to efficiency. I don't like to jump in and play armchair engineer. Whoever it is that designs these could run circles around my knowledge of it. Definitely they're not designing an aircraft wing.

 

[Venom800tt]

Yeah, I read it. They didn't really mention anything about strengthening the leading edge to prevent wear and increase service life. It mostly spoke about recycling measures and relying on resins for strength. I'm seeing images like this and thinking, "WTF guys? Here's your wear point. Might want to think about how to make that area last longer."

I'm sure they are looking into this, but it sounds like they want to do it by spraying special chemicals that are wear resistant. I would think some light gauge aluminum would probably work better than any special sprayed on "paint". I mean, airplanes have wings made of metal. The leading edge moves at 500+ mph for 10's of hours a day for years. You never hear about the rampant deterioration of airplane wings. They just keep on going.

Airplanes also spend the bulk of their time well above the more dirty, particulate ridden air down low where wind turbines reside. And even then their wings do suffer noticeable erosion from flight. Leading edges are indeed replaced on aircraft depending on erosion limits.
Turbine engine blades also suffer from erosion, and the carbon fiber blades used on several newer engine designs rely on titanium leading edges to reduce the frequency of replacement. I'd imagine there are cost/structural reasons as to why wind turbine blades lack metal leading edges since that is significantly longer than any normal propeller, turbine blade, or even the average aircraft wing.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yeah, I read it. They didn't really mention anything about strengthening the leading edge to prevent wear and increase service life. It mostly spoke about recycling measures and relying on resins for strength. I'm seeing images like this and thinking, "WTF guys? Here's your wear point. Might want to think about how to make that area last longer."

I'm sure they are looking into this, but it sounds like they want to do it by spraying special chemicals that are wear resistant. I would think some light gauge aluminum would probably work better than any special sprayed on "paint". I mean, airplanes have wings made of metal. The leading edge moves at 500+ mph for 10's of hours a day for years. You never hear about the rampant deterioration of airplane wings. They just keep on going.

I'd guess that it's all about tradeoffs. That aluminum cap you described adds weight which may put more tensile strain on the blade and connection. Seems like there is research being done though.

Leading Edge Erosion​

Available solutions for preventing or counteracting the leading-edge erosion of wind turbine blades can been grouped as prevention and avoidance (e.g., by reducing the tip speed during heavy precipitation events [116]), repair (placing thick protective shields or tapes on the eroded area), protection (e.g., by developing highly protective advanced coatings) [39]. In Ref. [116], the authors proposed a so-called “erosion safe mode control” strategy of the mitigation of leading-edge erosion based on the reduction in the tip speed during heavy rain conditions. Since extreme precipitation events occur quite rarely, they suggested that the tip speed is reduced during such extreme periods.

Solutions for the development of new, highly protective coatings for wind turbine blades include multi-layered, highly damping, particle, nanoparticle or fiber-reinforced polymer coatings, ensuring the scattering of rain impact energy and additional toughening and damping mechanisms, but also special metallic coatings [117]. Variations of coating thickness, internal structure (e.g., interpenetrating polymer networks), variations of viscoelastic properties are among other parameters which allow the erosion resistance of coatings to be increased [39]. Thicker, highly damping, multilayered, tougher coatings allow increased erosion protection [117].

Johansen et al. [118] tested anti-erosion coatings with graphene and graphene-silica hybrid reinforcements, using single point impact fatigue test (SPIFT), and observed that the nanoengineered coatings ensure up to 13 times higher lifetime than pure polyurethane coatings. Jespersen and colleagues [119] demonstrated in computational simulations that Kevlar pulp reinforced polymer coatings have the potential to ensure better anti-erosion performance than the homogeneous polymer coatings.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Sunak planning to drop net zero policies in pre-election challenge to Labour

Plans set to be announced on Friday could include delaying ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tommy_D]

For the climate change deniers:

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

September sizzled to records and was so much warmer than average scientists call it 'mind-blowing'

After a record-smashing hot summer, Earth's warming somehow got even worse in September. The European climate agency says temperatures last month set a new mark for how far above normal they hit.

apnews.com

And next year is expected to be hotter.

It was a pretty toasty September.

 

[Keef]

This is the Dayton Mall area surrounded by the typical Walmarts, Targets, Menardses, etc. Look at all that roof real estate. Not a single solar panel. While they wouldn't be outputting a lot today, and would need light mentenance in winter to clean off our occasional snows, for most of the year solar panels on these roofs would be very effective. These massive corporations could easily pay for that.

Here is an area near Dayton International Airport that is blossoming with warehouses, being very near the intersection of I-75 and I-70, and near what may eventually become a bit of a cargo hub once again (in fact, a Sun Country pilot friend is flying a cargo flight to DAY in a few days). This Google Map only shows half the buildings that are already built with more to come. Not a single solar panel. That's a lot of completely wasted real estate that could be generating power, and likely powering the entire warehouse during summer days.

Dayton is not a very big city in the scheme of things yet we still have plenty of rooftop real estate that should be lined with solar panels to offset the 100% coal and gas power production we use in this region of the country. These huge corporations could easily afford all this, hell they'd probably do some weird tax loopholes to offset the cost, but the rules don't require anything so they do whatever is cheapest.

I'd guess that it's all about tradeoffs. That aluminum cap you described adds weight which may put more tensile strain on the blade and connection. Seems like there is research being done though.

Yeah I don't really understand why that's a problem either. Airplanes use bare aluminum leading edges for a completely different reason, because they're hollow and heated from the inside, however they're also durable. While airplane wings don't spend nearly as much time flying through dust as windmills do, they do it at a considerably higher speeds, even at low altitudes.

I don't really see how water is a factor with this erosion problem. That's simply a poor choice of materials by engineers. Dust and smoke, sure, that causes real friction with hard particles, something which airplanes don't deal with. But water should not be a factor at all - even airplanes like King Airs have rubber inflatable boots on their leading engines and those things last 10+ years before they need replaced.

A more apt comparison would be airplane propellers, things which deal with considerably higher speeds, temps, and all the same conditions as windmills. Here's a carbon prop with aluminum cap, very commonplane on modern planes like Cirrus and Diamond.

Note the rubber inflatable de-icing boot on the slower speed section of the prop. handles the abuse just fine. Obviously the lifespan of these things is tightly controlled and inspections are regular but I've never heard of any sort of unexpected material fatigue with props like this. The tip speeds of these propellers are trans-sonic so friction is considerable.

Here's common wear on typical hollow aluminum blade you'd see on a Cessna.

Again, a known quantity that is controlled and inspected, but the bottom line is there isn't really any material fatigue that can't literally be fixed with a file. Again, very high tip speeds, up to trans-sonic.

 

[Danoff]

they do whatever is cheapest.

It's worse than that. Solar is cheaper, but it takes 6-8 years or so to break even. It's really just short-term thinking.

If it makes you feel any better, a major office building just got constructed near me that included solar panels over the entire parking lot.

 

[Keef]

It's worse than that. Solar is cheaper, but it takes 6-8 years or so to break even. It's really just short-term thinking.

If it makes you feel any better, a major office building just got constructed near me that included solar panels over the entire parking lot.

There is one small business in the area that has that and it's a nifty idea. Some technology company I believe. As for the lifespan of these buildings, even if it took 15 years to break even, most of these Targets et al have existed since I was a child, so 30+ years now with no sign of being demolished anytime soon.

Solar is definitely more common in bigger cities - Chicago must have some rules about this because rooftop solar on warehouses is relatively common these days - so I don't really blame the Dayton area for not getting on the bandwagon since money flows slower around here. But cities like Phoenix really have no excuse as panels there would be like 99% effective year-round.

 

[TheCracker]

Aside from some potential security and fire hazard risks, i've often thought large parking lots are an ideal solution for solar farms. Keeping the cars underneath cooler in the warmer months would help the overuse of car AC usage too which would save a bit on gas/electricity i imagine.

 

[Keef]

Aside from some potential security and fire hazard risks, i've often thought large parking lots are an ideal solution for solar farms. Keeping the cars underneath cooler in the warmer months would help the overuse of car AC usage too which would save a bit on gas/electricity i imagine.

I think less so the cars but the bigger impact would be fighting urban heat islands with renewable energy. Especially here in the Midwest where it gets both hot and humid, on summer days we all have our air con cranked up high, forcing the coal and gas plants into overtime. It would be nice to not have to crank up this overflow gas plant in the middle of the city and have commercial buildings feed their own needs on hot days.

 

[Imari]

Airplanes also spend the bulk of their time well above the more dirty, particulate ridden air down low where wind turbines reside. And even then their wings do suffer noticeable erosion from flight. Leading edges are indeed replaced on aircraft depending on erosion limits.
Turbine engine blades also suffer from erosion, and the carbon fiber blades used on several newer engine designs rely on titanium leading edges to reduce the frequency of replacement. I'd imagine there are cost/structural reasons as to why wind turbine blades lack metal leading edges since that is significantly longer than any normal propeller, turbine blade, or even the average aircraft wing.

It wouldn't surprise me if part of it is also that it's not safety critical. If a leading edge on a plane fails unexpectedly, that's potentially a path to hundreds of people dying. If a wind turbine blade fails unexpectedly that's probably very expensive, but likely no one gets hurt.

I don't really see how water is a factor with this erosion problem. That's simply a poor choice of materials by engineers. Dust and smoke, sure, that causes real friction with hard particles, something which airplanes don't deal with. But water should not be a factor at all - even airplanes like King Airs have rubber inflatable boots on their leading engines and those things last 10+ years before they need replaced.

Any material striking the blade that is more dense than air is going to contribute to erosion. And with water there's also chemical reactions to consider.

I think you're viewing this matter as simpler than it actually is. People build entire careers around this sort of stuff, and research into long term durability of materials like these takes years and years to complete. I used to do some work designing exterior paints for houses and stuff, and the short version of testing a new formulation took upwards of three years.

Again, a known quantity that is controlled and inspected, but the bottom line is there isn't really any material fatigue that can't literally be fixed with a file. Again, very high tip speeds, up to trans-sonic.

For example, you don't fix material fatigue with a file. I don't know what you're thinking of, just plain surface damage maybe? But fatigue is a specific phenomenon that limits the service life of parts.

Fatigue (material) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's maybe more going on here with regards to material properties than you're aware of.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I just found this flowchart adapted from the book "I Want a Better Catastrophe" by Andrew Boyd

(language warning) https://flowchart.bettercatastrophe.com/

The flowchart has narration going through each part and explains everything. I think it does a really good job of being introspective and exploring what the problem is as well as trying to find a hopeful solution for humanity. I highly recommend listening to the narration, but it is 50 min long

The flowchart cites a lot of good quotes that I really enjoy:

I cannot be an optimist, but I am a prisoner of hope. — Desmond Tutu

Be of service not knowing whether you're a midwife or a hospice worker. — Joanna Macy

Fall as if we were holding a child on our chest. — adrienne maree brown

 

[ProjectWHaT]

The ocean is at record breaking temperatures this year, solely because we've stopped polluting the air with sulfur







Here it is in video form

365 days straight of record breaking ocean temperatures

 

[HenrySwanson]

Can't put this in human rights thread as it would be my third post in a row, but I figure it's equally as appropriate here:

Human rights violated by Swiss inaction on climate, ECHR rules in landmark case

Court finds in favour of group of older Swiss women who claimed weak policies put them at greater risk of death from heatwaves

www.theguardian.com

 

[TB]

Can't put this in human rights thread as it would be my third post in a row

Your posts are from one and six months ago and this is on a completely different subject. You're fine.

 

[Meythia]

Can't put this in human rights thread as it would be my third post in a row, but I figure it's equally as appropriate here:

Human rights violated by Swiss inaction on climate, ECHR rules in landmark case

Court finds in favour of group of older Swiss women who claimed weak policies put them at greater risk of death from heatwaves

www.theguardian.com

I wonder how many of them are doing their own fair share on trying to do whatever is in their capabilties, like telling their kids and grandkids to not fly for vacation x-times a year.

But on the other side, sure, without government intervention most people wont do anything either because of lazyness or because of (upfront) cost involved.

 

[Exorcet]

I wonder how many of them are doing their own fair share on trying to do whatever is in their capabilties, like telling their kids and grandkids to not fly for vacation x-times a year.

But on the other side, sure, without government intervention most people wont do anything either because of lazyness or because of (upfront) cost involved.

It helps to have someone with a view of the big picture overseeing things. People can do good for the environment on their own but the end goal is always to influence total emissions/pollution/etc. Some people are lazy, or ignorant, or knee deep in conspiracy theories, but it's easier for a large entity like government to manage and track progress of large populations than it is for average people.