Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

[ZAGGIN]

there are two points to this thread (as noted in the title), and because i feel they are both linked, i thought id group them together rather than create two separate threads. firstly, this is not a finger pointing exercise. the purpose of this thread is to debate (and hopefully) inform, not accuse.

i never gave global warming much thought, until i became a parent. i worry now that the world i leave for my children will be a different world from the one i grew up in. does anyone else feel this way?

the threat of global warming

it has now been proved that the world is indeed getting warmer. the ice caps are slowly melting, and freak weather is causing havoc all over the world. but despite the compelling evidence, we are still doing nothing about it. does anyone care anymore? western nations have been polluting the atmosphere for decades with little care for the damage that was being caused. and with the emergence of developing countries like china and india it is set to get a whole lot worse.
the kyoto agreement is a step in the right direction, but is it too little too late? what are americans veiws on the fact that their nation has abstained from this agreement? also, how can developed nations convince developing countries like china and india that cutting back on immissions and pollution is the way forward? they will always argue that we (the west) polluted for decades, and built strong economies on the back of that pollution, so why cant they? is this a valid argument?

id like to hear what americans think. afterall, america is the worlds biggest polluter. do we have an forum members from china, india or any developing nation? eventually as their economies grow, china and india could well overtake america as the worlds biggest polluters. what are their views? id also like to hear from forum members from other nations around the world, what do you think about the effects of global warming? does anyone have examples of the effects of global warming in thier country?

'As the world's biggest polluter, no real dent in global warming can be made without the US. The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people'

'The average American produces six tonnes of carbon dioxide, the average Briton three tonnes, a Chinese 0.7 tonnes and an Indian 0.25 tonnes.'

- quotes taken from the bbc

the looming energy crisis

fossil fuels have been around for millions of years, but it wasnt until the start of the industrial revolution that we really started to exploit them. back then we believed these resources would be infinite, but oil, coal, and natural gas have been proven to be finite. the day will come (i believe in our life time), that we will no longer be able to rely on them to drive our economies, fuel our cars, or heat our homes. little is being done by governments around the world to look for alternatives, and we all face the prospect of a energy crisis, which may be only decades away.

'Peak oil is the point in time when extraction of oil from the earth reaches its highest point and then begins to decline. We won't be able to say with certainty when we have reached peak oil until after the fact. Many experts say we have already reached the peak. Others say not yet, but within the next few years.' - quote taken from peakoil.org

what are your views on the subject?

you've read both of the topics above, and on their own, they may seem real, but distant. now put them together, and what do you have? a timebomb. pretending that it isnt happening will not make the situation go away or get any better. we are all guilty of depleting the earths natural resources at an unsustainable rate, what will happen when they've been exhausted? do you care? does anyone?

i have included links to various resources on the www. please, take time to read them.

the threat of global warming

the kyoto protocol
americas refusal to join the kyoto treaty (bbc article)
global warming (union of concerned scientists)
national resources defence council
earth institute (climate and society)
global warming: early warning signs
global warming

the looming energy crisis

peakoil
oilcrisis.com
energycrisis.de
planet for life.com
the busby report - after oil (uk)
eating fossil fuels

you can make the difference!

my-kyoto (uk)
energy savers (us)
carbon trust (uk)
eco - empowered consumer options (us)

 

[VIPFREAK]

I really can't help but think the same thing Agent Smith (in the matrix) does about us but we really are Parasites of this place. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know we ARE going to run out of Fossil fuels but what I really can't understand is if we had an "oil crisis" back in the 70's/80's why the hell do we not give a **** today even though inevitably there will be ANOTHER crisis if we don't change our ways SOON. :cough:namely SUV:cough:

As for Global warming I don't know about it but all I know is it's much easier to live life in the cold than to pretty much fry alive, at least I can sleep at night.

 

[smellysocks12]

Yup, we should stop using fossilized fuel or else we'll have to stop anyway because we run out of it. Though the alternative is hard, you can make "hybrid" cars that run on hydrogen, but the problem is that the hydrogen has to be made with electricity... generated by a powerplant which runs on coal.... or nuclear power. Nuclear power is pretty good if it's done in a perfectly safe non-tchernobyl way, the problem with that though, is that you end up with nuclear waste. Maybe when we are able to safely shoot that nuclear waste to the sun nuclear power will be a perfect substitute.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Nuclear power is pretty good if it's done in a perfectly safe non-tchernobyl way, the problem with that though, is that you end up with nuclear waste. Maybe when we are able to safely shoot that nuclear waste to the sun nuclear power will be a perfect substitute.

If this was done in like Germany or Japan where someone gives a **** about society more than money and ways to avoid safety standards then yeah I'd definitely agree.

 

[Joey D]

First off the world as a whole needs to do something, blaming the US won't solve anything. But hey it seem like the rest of world thinks its cool to do. What about countries like China and newly developed African nations? They have a ton of factories and what not. They tend to pollute quite a bit.

If everything was clean you would pay a million dollars to get a toothbrush because they would have to pay to research the plastic that makes it. You can't be clean and economical. And really I think I would much rather have an economy rather then clean things.

Now on to the cars, SUV's aren't the cause of fuel shortages like many people think. What about airplanes or even ocean liners? They burn more fuel then cars do easily. But we do need to start thinking about swtiching cars to another form of fuel. Hydrogen is a good possiblity, but why not ethonol? Ethonol is cheap, come on its corn, and it would be easy to convery exsisting engines over to burn ehonol. A lot of the gas in the US contains ethonol already.

With the power plants there are other alternatives to coal, you have hydroelectric, solar, etc. So no you wouldn't have to pollute to get hydrogen.

 

[smellysocks12]

First off the world as a whole needs to do something, blaming the US won't solve anything. But hey it seem like the rest of world thinks its cool to do. What about countries like China and newly developed African nations? They have a ton of factories and what not. They tend to pollute quite a bit.

If everything was clean you would pay a million dollars to get a toothbrush because they would have to pay to research the plastic that makes it. You can't be clean and economical. And really I think I would much rather have an economy rather then clean things.

Now on to the cars, SUV's aren't the cause of fuel shortages like many people think. What about airplanes or even ocean liners? They burn more fuel then cars do easily. But we do need to start thinking about swtiching cars to another form of fuel. Hydrogen is a good possiblity, but why not ethonol? Ethonol is cheap, come on its corn, and it would be easy to convery exsisting engines over to burn ehonol. A lot of the gas in the US contains ethonol already.

With the power plants there are other alternatives to coal, you have hydroelectric, solar, etc. So no you wouldn't have to pollute to get hydrogen.

Of course the USA isn't the only one to blame for the environmental damage being done, we all are, for living. Though I do think the USA is more to blame, since the regulations aren't as strict as they are over here in Europe or other countries that signed the Kyoto pact. They simply didn't sign it for economic reasons, of course production will cost more with heavier environmental regulations. They're just trying to cut costs to be a good competitor when compared to Europe and keeping prices low. Though, what good will slightly more money in your wallet do, when you will die before you get to spend it because of lung cancer? Countries like India and China pollute heavily as well, but does that mean we have to follow their example? We have the resources to produce in a cleaner way in the more developed countries, yet the USA doesn't do it. I get it though, lower prices are good to brag about when having new presidential elections. People can see their bank account daily, they can't see the state of their lungs.

 

[Joey D]

Well I live in a nice little suburb so I don't have to worry about all that crap. The only big pollution areas in America are the major cities. But I would much rather have money then a clean environment. The world runs on money and you can't find ways make a clean environment without it.

Something will kill me, and I'll get lung cancer from smoking long before I get it from the air around me. And before someone goes off on a non smoking rampage, its my choice and I know that it's bad. I smoke cigars but not too often.

The US won't be in another presidential election until 2008. And the president doesn't control the US's economy, the big companies do.

 

[Famine]

Global warming is a myth put around by "have-nots" to get at "haves". Deal with it.

 

[smellysocks12]

Global warming is a myth put around by "have-nots" to get at "haves". Deal with it.

Though I often agree with your posts, I disagree with this one. Besides that, who says that someone with more money has the right to pollute my environment more than someone who is poor? If I live next to a factory and daily I have to wash smog dust off my car due to the pollution next door it's my problem. Yet when I go to factory owner's house and take a leak on his Porsche, I get arrested. I don't see the difference, we're both polluting each other's environment that way. As a matter of fact now we BOTH would have to get our cars washed. A simple filter would keep my car clean and a little decency from me keeps the factory owner's car clean.

 

[Famine]

Where does money and right to pollute come into it?

Global Warming does not exist.

 

[DQuaN]

Our planet does what it wants. We had an ice age not long ago. There was also a period when the Earth was much hotter than it is now.

Listen to the indigo one! ^

 

[Joey D]

Well DquaN and Famine both make really good points. I'm going to have to agree with them.

 

[Danoff]

the threat of global warming

it has now been proved that the world is indeed getting warmer. the ice caps are slowly melting, and freak weather is causing havoc all over the world. but despite the compelling evidence, we are still doing nothing about it. does anyone care anymore?

While it is true that the world is getting warmer, we do not know that there is anything we can do about it or whether we are causing it. We do know that the world temperature fluctates over hundreds of years - and that the temperature variations we have seen are very much in the noise of that fluctuation. Mt. St. Helens dumped more CO2 into the atmosphere than something like 5 years of pollution (I don't have exact figures there).

Global warming is a myth, listen to Famine.

western nations have been polluting the atmosphere for decades with little care for the damage that was being caused. and with the emergence of developing countries like china and india it is set to get a whole lot worse.
the kyoto agreement is a step in the right direction, but is it too little too late? what are americans veiws on the fact that their nation has abstained from this agreement? also, how can developed nations convince developing countries like china and india that cutting back on immissions and pollution is the way forward? they will always argue that we (the west) polluted for decades, and built strong economies on the back of that pollution, so why cant they? is this a valid argument?

The Kyoto agreement was crap, and I'm glad we didn't sign up. It wouldn't have done much more than waste money.

fossil fuels have been around for millions of years, but it wasnt until the start of the industrial revolution that we really started to exploit them. back then we believed these resources would be infinite, but oil, coal, and natural gas have been proven to be finite. the day will come (i believe in our life time), that we will no longer be able to rely on them to drive our economies, fuel our cars, or heat our homes. little is being done by governments around the world to look for alternatives, and we all face the prospect of a energy crisis, which may be only decades away.

The depletion of fossil fuels will slow the rate at which we pollute our atmosphere. You should be hoping that we use more fossile fuels faster so that they run out sooner and we pollute less. When oil starts to run out mankind will do what it always does - look for a way around the problem. I assure you there are very bright engineers who are already looking into this and we will have some great solutions (we already do - eg: ethanol, electric cars... electricity comes from nuclear reactors).

little is being done by governments around the world to look for alternatives

Why must it be done by governments? If oil is truly running out, companies will dump literally billions of dollars into research for alternatives.

 

[kyle]

On global warming, older generations will tell you it has gotten considerably warmer in the last century. We were already in a warmup to begin with, but because of the gases it has been accelerated. However, the earth has been much warmer and much cooler before. I feel we should be concerned about it, because even if global warming didn't/doesn't exist, we still would have smoke and breathing problems in industrialized areas.

On fossil fuels, I think we are running out of them. Now what would be a good solution? Ooh I know, nuclear power! Ha! It produces waste which cannot go away for ~10,000 yrs. And if you hire some kid to run security, there goes half a state/province/prefecture/whatever you live in. So we go to hydrogen fuels. Now they sound better but the electricity is produced from power plants that pollute. So, what are we to do? My solution: Let's try to find a new energy, you know something that ain't electricity. I'm not smart enough to come up with the solution but someone, somewhere, has the knowledge for that discovery.

-kyle

 

[smellysocks12]

You can make hydrogen out of electricity that comes from wind/water/solar energy. My idea is we should pave entire deserts with solar panels and put one on top of every building. Windmills kill many birds, so I wouldn't really prefer that solution. Hoover dams aren't a very good solution either. Sure, it would be expensive, but it would be an investment into an unlimited source of energy, which might eventually pay back. Of course I don't have a clue about the maintenance costs or whether it would really be worth it.

 

[Danoff]

We were already in a warmup to begin with, but because of the gases it has been accelerated.

Speculation by environmentalists who would like nothing better than for that to be true.

Now what would be a good solution? Ooh I know, nuclear power! Ha! It produces waste which cannot go away for ~10,000 yrs.

The waste produced by nuclear reactions is very minimal, especially if you reprocess the plutonium - and nuclear plants have been made quite safe. Nuclear power is THE solution.

 

[ZAGGIN]

The world runs on money and you can't find ways make a clean environment without it.

despite what you believe, the world does not run on money - the world runs on oil. next to food and water, oil is our next used and most important commodity. no aspect of life is unaffected buy its use. whether it be the plastic sweet wrappers littering the streets, or the rubber soles on your training shoes, or the sports car parked on your drive; oil has played a part somewhere in their production. the fact that you can read the posts in this thread is testiment to the fact that (although you cant see it), oil is working hard to keep the wheels of industry moving. money will always exist in some form or another, but the world wouldnt last five minutes without oil.

 

[smellysocks12]

Rubber comes from trees, soles on sport shoes made of oil are plastic.

 

[Joey D]

despite what you believe, the world does not run on money - the world runs on oil. next to food and water, oil is our next used and most important commodity. no aspect of life is unaffected buy its use. whether it be the plastic sweet wrappers littering the streets, or the rubber soles on your training shoes, or the sports car parked on your drive; oil has played a part somewhere in their production. the fact that you can read the posts in this thread is testiment to the fact that (although you cant see it), oil is working hard to keep the wheels of industry moving. money will always exist in some form or another, but the world wouldnt last five minutes without oil.

You can't get oil with out money. Trust me if you have money you will have an easy life. Money makes the world go round.

 

[Famine]

No. That's gravity.

 

[Joey D]

Damn it....you're right.

 

[ZAGGIN]

You can't get oil with out money. Trust me if you have money you will have an easy life. Money makes the world go round.

nope! your wrong mate, oil runs cars, factories, creates electricity (that power printing presses in mints), fuel planes and tankers, and is an integral part of most synthetic fabrics. fertilisers and many chemicals are also by products of oil, basically, if its not made of stone, wood, or metal, its made of plastic - which comes from oil.
as i stated, previously, next to food and water it is our next used and most important comodity. if you dont belive me search the www.

 

[Danoff]

as i stated, previously, next to food and water it is our next used and most important comodity.

Oil is far more replacable than food or water.

 

[Joey D]

nope! your wrong mate, oil runs cars, factories, creates electricity (that power printing presses in mints), fuel planes and tankers, and is an integral part of most synthetic fabrics. fertilisers and many chemicals are also by products of oil, basically, if its not made of stone, wood, or metal, its made of plastic - which comes from oil.
as i stated, previously, next to food and water it is our next used and most important comodity. if you dont belive me search the www.

Oil does not run the world, the world could survive with out oil and in about 50 years we will. The planet won't die off if we don't have oil. Sure lots of thing depend on it, but so something else will take over. But if there is no money, there is no research and nothing goes forward in th world.

Tell me how would the world exsist with out money? It could last without oil since oil wasn't really big until the late 1800's.

But as Famine pointed out the world really revolves around gravity.

And you put food and water after oil? What are you stupid? The human can only live for 3 days without water and something like 40 days with out food. Hell look at the Amish, no oil powered anything and they survive. If I took away your food and water and only gave you oil you would be owned with in a few days.

Give it up oil is not the most important thing, water is, followed by food, followed by shelter, followed by money.

 

[Danoff]

Tell me how would the world exsist with out money? It could last without oil since oil wasn't really big until the late 1800's.

It isn't possible to eliminate money. Currency is a fundamental and natural occurence of any market. It is a byproduct of the exchange of thousands of different kinds of services.

Money and evolution are great examples of order from chaos - of millions of individuals working together for their own self interest accidently creating an ordered complex system.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

Money 👍 for the people who have it, poplution:tdown: for everyone, because everyone can share it. Breathe that it, you know what that is, its the smell of evolution.

 

[ZAGGIN]

And you put food and water after oil? What are you stupid? The human can only live for 3 days without water and something like 40 days with out food. Hell look at the Amish, no oil powered anything and they survive.

mate, your STUPID. read my reply, i said AFTER food and water, oil is our next important comodity. your right about the amish people not using anything powered, would you live like that? obviously not, or you'd already be amish!

Give it up oil is not the most important thing, water is, followed by food, followed by shelter, followed by money.

everything you mentioned there has used oil at somepoint in its production. take a minute and think about it.

water: how is this pumped out of the ground, treated, and then pumped to your tap? oil.
food: you've seen combine harvesters in the fields havent you? they run on petrol or diesel (oil)
shelter: unless you live in a cave, plant machinery was used at some point to create the house you now reside in. again, plant machinery run on petrol or diesel (oil).
money: there are many things in this world that are more valuable than 'money' as you put it. oil IS money (ie liquid gold). your not even grasping the basic concept are you?

you say in fifty years we will survive without oil, maybe, but do you want to live like the amish? what use will your 'money' be then? economies grow because of money, but oil powers those economies.
how do you think shops get stock to sell? it has to be delivered by a truck of some description, which runs on petrol or diesel. what happens if that truck cant move? the shop gets nothing. if the shop gets nothing, it has nothing to sell. if nothing sells, no money is generated and pretty soon that shop goes bust. causing anyone working for that company to lose their jobs because the shop owners cant afford to pay the staff. now imagine that happening to every shop in a town, a city, or even a nation. pretty soon you have thousands (if not millions) of people that have no money. is it becoming any clearer yet? oil generates money, but money depends on oil.
im a stock controller and i work in a warehouse, and besides production costs, transportation is the next biggest factor determining how much anything we make costs to buy or sell. manufacturing plants would go bust if they couldnt get their products to the shops that need them.
most people fail to grasp the significance of how important oil is. the modern world is inextricably linked to it. with out it the world we know today would grind to a halt overnight. money isnt going to move your car, money isnt going to provide light or heat (unless you burn it), money means nothing if there is no oil.

i live in the uk, and a few years ago, we had a fuel blockade because hauliers were becoming angry at the rising price of fuel. it took only a couple of days to bring the country to its knees. in those brief days, people were panic buying both food and fuel, and there was widspread chaos as supermarkets could not get even the basic food stuffs like bread and milk to their shops. cars where left abandoned by the roadside because they had run out of fuel. luckily this crisis lasted a short period of time, when oil really does run out, do you think it is going to be any different?

i dont know when oil will run out, but i know it will. there will be signs though. first it will cost a little more everytime you fill up your car, then it will cost a LOT more. eventually, you wont be able to run your car. by the time your car becomes unusable it will alread be too late. we are all sleepwalking into a disater like nothing seen before on this earth. its time to wake up and smell the coffee people - oil is running out!

Oil is far more replacable than food or water.

this applies to you too blazinxtreme. ive never suggested here that oil is more important than food. the only reason i used that statement (which is true), was to put my argument into perspective. obviously, both of you failed to grasp even that basic concept.

 

[Joey D]

Sorry I misread your post...so thats a my bad on me.

Still oil is not the most important thing. I don't want to live like the Amish and I won't but there are plenty of ways to create power without using oil. Solar? Hydroelectric? Nuclear? They don't require oil to run and in 25-30 years I would say close to 90% of the power will be based off something like that. You can easily do all that stuff with out oil.

To pump water? Create wind powered pumps or soemthing, hey even electric pumps that don't use oil to power them.

To gather food? Hydrogen powered combines or even solar powered ones, very feasible.

You can build a good home with out the use of oil, the power around me was created using nuclear power so I didn't need oil to get the electricty. The only oil we used was in the bobcat to level the ground, which could easily be replaced by something else.

So if oil is money that must mean money is the most important thing then right?

how do you think shops get stock to sell? it has to be delivered by a truck of some description, which runs on petrol or diesel. what happens if that truck cant move? the shop gets nothing. if the shop gets nothing, it has nothing to sell. if nothing sells, no money is generated and pretty soon that shop goes bust. causing anyone working for that company to lose their jobs because the shop owners cant afford to pay the staff. now imagine that happening to every shop in a town, a city, or even a nation. pretty soon you have thousands (if not millions) of people that have no money. is it becoming any clearer yet? oil generates money, but money depends on oil.
im a stock controller and i work in a warehouse, and besides production costs, transportation is the next biggest factor determining how much anything we make costs to buy or sell. manufacturing plants would go bust if they couldnt get their products to the shops that need them.

Replace oil with hydrogen or solar power and you are set. Hydrogen power truck delievers the goods and everyone is happy.

i live in the uk, and a few years ago, we had a fuel blockade because hauliers were becoming angry at the rising price of fuel. it took only a couple of days to bring the country to its knees. in those brief days, people were panic buying both food and fuel, and there was widspread chaos as supermarkets could not get even the basic food stuffs like bread and milk to their shops. cars where left abandoned by the roadside because they had run out of fuel. luckily this crisis lasted a short period of time, when oil really does run out, do you think it is going to be any different?

Oil really isn't going to run out, it will just out price itself and people will start using something else (hydrogen). There is more then 50 years before that happens, which is more then enough time to research hydrogen power. I mean Europe is already starting with those cars and the US is starting to catch on. Or what about ethonol cars? I mean a car ran completly on corn. That is also doable.

The world isn't blind like you make it out to be. We know that oil will eventually become obsolete. That is why we are researching things. Don't you read magazines like Popular Science?

And the US knows what a fuel crisis is like, look at the 70's. We managed and things we fine. Sure it messed up some lives but it was fine.

I'm fully grasping what you are saying, but I just don't think you know what you are talking about to tell you the truth.

 

[ZAGGIN]

I'm fully grasping what you are saying, but I just don't think you know what you are talking about to tell you the truth.

everything i have posted has been after i read the articles listed in my initial post. i will agree that alternative energy sources are being researched, but it is at nowhere near the level it should be. we need to start weaning ourselves off our depedance on oil now. not when it runs out, it will be too late then.

 

[Joey D]

So you got your information from biased websites, that would be like me buying a Honda because Honda told me that the Civic was the best car in the world. It doesn't really make sense, plus I believe about 8% of the stuff I read on the net. Any person can get a site.

Personally on techonolgy stuff, research stuff, etc. I like Popular Science and Scientific American. Not really biased at all. If they told me the that oil would ruin the world when it out priced itself I might believe it.

You make it sound like we are doomed for exstintion after the oil runs out. Hydrogen powered cars are well within grasp with in 5 years. For our powerplants, non fossil fuel power is already in exsistance and they that's what they will be building from here on out.