Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

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Which of the following statements best reflects your views on Global Warming?


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Yup. The hazardous wastes are in the CFLs. Flourescents contain mercury.

While safe disposal is a must, it's amusing how one broken CFL can cause a full-on biohazard panic in the USA... whereas here, you've got broken flourescents on every street corner...

Okay... maybe that last part isn't amusing.

LEDs are pretty non-toxic. And they last longer than any other bulb.
 
LEDs are wonderful and will eventually take over. Walmart just announced a new low-cost LED bulb that will help drive prices down (though I think that bulb is pretty blue).

I'm also planning to replace CFLs in my new house (builder installs CFLs), with LEDs as they burn out. But with the low power consumption for so many of these new bulbs, I plan to use them in a much different way.

In my new place I'll have 13 bulbs outside the house. These will be on timers to stay on all night. Why not? When it takes so little electricity to power these things, why not just leave them on for hours and hours.

I'm going to have a few LED rope strands in the kitchen which I plan on leaving on 24/7. There are a few other bulbs in the house that may get ~12 hour/day duty as well. A few hallway lights, etc. There are also some closet rope strands that may just stay on permanently.

This is one of the great things about new, efficient technologies. You get to be wasteful again.
 
Yup. The hazardous wastes are in the CFLs. Flourescents contain mercury.

While safe disposal is a must, it's amusing how one broken CFL can cause a full-on biohazard panic in the USA... whereas here, you've got broken flourescents on every street corner...

Okay... maybe that last part isn't amusing.

LEDs are pretty non-toxic. And they last longer than any other bulb.

Whereas in the lab we break a thermometer every other month, and just put all the mercury in the broken thermometer jar. Mercury is definitely not good for you, but incidental contact isn't going to kill anyone.

One broken fluorescent contains three/fifths of bugger all mercury. For household purposes, it's about as toxic as a fart.

I imagine the reason recycling is mandatory is so that when a business changes out 200 tubes they don't dump them all in one place, which could be a reasonably severe hazard.
 
LEDs are wonderful and will eventually take over. Walmart just announced a new low-cost LED bulb that will help drive prices down (though I think that bulb is pretty blue).

I'm also planning to replace CFLs in my new house (builder installs CFLs), with LEDs as they burn out. But with the low power consumption for so many of these new bulbs, I plan to use them in a much different way.

In my new place I'll have 13 bulbs outside the house. These will be on timers to stay on all night. Why not? When it takes so little electricity to power these things, why not just leave them on for hours and hours.

I'm going to have a few LED rope strands in the kitchen which I plan on leaving on 24/7. There are a few other bulbs in the house that may get ~12 hour/day duty as well. A few hallway lights, etc. There are also some closet rope strands that may just stay on permanently.

This is one of the great things about new, efficient technologies. You get to be wasteful again.
When we had the kitchen redone we put LED bars under the cabinets. I leave at least one section on all night. It provides enough light to move around the house without ruining night vision.

The ceiling has halogen spotlight track lighting. The first of these went out and I'm having trouble finding replacements for under $30. I might have found a wholesaler on line that will let me buy 10 at a time for $5 each, but I'm unfamiliar with the brand names.

My daughter's room has an incandescent ceiling fan light and a small lamp that uses a chandelier bulb. When she started being afraid of the dark I bought a 4w LED night light bulb that I found in the clearance rack at Walmart for $2 that fit the lamp. That thing stays on most nights and is just bright enough to scare away the monsters.


The huge reason I stocked up on incandescents to avoid CFLs is we have two dimmable light fixtures. CFLs don't don't do that. They just start that headache-inducing flicker.
 
Ultra-belatedly:

You used a conspiracy theory about multiple international companies colluding to commit fraud on the entire world.

First, my mother is the administrative assistant of the VP of information technology at GE Appliances. For two years she was the assistant to the CEO. She started working there over 30 years ago. My brother was in IT desktop support for ten years. I worked two internships there. I know for a fact you are on to nothing. I have witnessed executives yelling at production managers about fixing their reliability ratings. They are actually slowly bringing outsourced factory jobs back because the reliability ratings dropped at the same rate they sent factory jobs to Mexico. A low reliability rating hurts sales. It is not the desire of capitalism.

Yes, the desire of capitalism is capital, strangely enough. But surely we're talking about methods rather than ultimate ends. And yes, I'm talking about conspiracy theories. Oddly enough, since the topic moved on to lighting types, the first planned obsolescence plot is said to be the Phoebus cartel's suggested collusion on shortening the lifespan of incandescent bulbs. I do think FK Lewinsky, that if planned obsolescence was in place where you worked, it may have been on a higher level than the interns, and IT'ers. Pretty sure your mother is in on it though. I jest, but it really wouldn't be as simple as you put it. Increased reliability benefits some people's jobs for sure, and a perception of reliability benefits all in the company, but that doesn't truly inform what methods are used to reach the bottom line.

Oh, and harking back even further. Is your recycling susidised by government? If so, welcome to the fold Comrade.

And second, maybe you are looking at crap microwaves. Mine is secondhand from my brother, as is my stove and dishwasher. They were used for 8 years before I got them. My work break room has a working microwave that still has a rotary dial. Those haven't been common in the US for over 20 years.
That very much falls in to line with what I found. That many people had far more success with buying an old second hand microwave due to them being built to last. Seems you might be party to the conspiracy after all. For what it's worth, I was looking at anything up to the point where the abrupt jump up to 1000 odd dollars occurs. Best of the more affordable maybe.

About two and a half billion years ago a species developed that produced a poisonous, corrosive substance that eventually produced the greatest extinction event in the earth's history. Even a thermonuclear war that triggered a "nuclear winter" wouldn't have the effect this event did.

And yet, this same poison is now essential to virtually all life today. So was this a good thing or a bad thing for the planet? The poisonous, corrosive substance I'm referring to is, of course, oxygen.

Edit:

And still you avoid the question:
What, exactly, do you define "useful to the planet" as?

So the logic is: if it might end up as something useful, let it be? Some people I know have great strength and empathy that stems from being abused as children. Lucky no-one stopped it happening then. So it's settled, we won't change our ways because future generations will be very grateful when our filth turns in to cute bunnies.

"Useful" in my book is perhaps, serving a positive purpose that is not outweighed by negative effects. Judged based on now and the foreseeable future.

Sorta seems to me like that logic can be extended to removing all life and energy from the planet so that it's a big rock, like the moon. Then there would be nothing to disturb the planet from it's "natural" state, namely being a big rock.

The planet is not a stasis. Life is not a stasis. The goal is to live life without removing the opportunity for others to live their lives as well, be that other humans or other species.

I think of it like a kid's party. Most of it will be good clean fun, albeit with a bit of "tit for tat" and a few sores on knees, but an outright bully in the mix is a different story. It's not about having no party (big empty rock), more about having no bully. If we can't play nice.....

Older cars produce plenty of pollution in their manufacture.
Ah, they really don't, since they've already been manufactured. That's the point.

Overall, I'm talking about the human race benefiting from some collective humility, and being smarter when trying do their good deeds.
 
Yes, the desire of capitalism is capital, strangely enough. But surely we're talking about methods rather than ultimate ends. And yes, I'm talking about conspiracy theories. Oddly enough, since the topic moved on to lighting types, the first planned obsolescence plot is said to be the Phoebus cartel's suggested collusion on shortening the lifespan of incandescent bulbs. I do think FK Lewinsky, that if planned obsolescence was in place where you worked, it may have been on a higher level than the interns, and IT'ers. Pretty sure your mother is in on it though. I jest, but it really wouldn't be as simple as you put it. Increased reliability benefits some people's jobs for sure, and a perception of reliability benefits all in the company, but that doesn't truly inform what methods are used to reach the bottom line.
So first hand experience, having walked through the factories, and witnessed executive meetings about getting back to the reputation they had 30 years ago counts for less than some Internet conspiracies? I need to learn to stop trusting my eyes, ears, and brain and start listening to random no-names on Internet-only videos and blogs.

Aliens are real, the government caused 9/11, and the food supply is purposely poisoned.

As for incandescent obsolescence: GE's President was one of the biggest proponents of regulating incandescent bulbs out of existence. He had different reasons for it, namely there was more money in refurbishing or moving every factory, having higher production costs, and selling a product with, at the time, a lower profit margin.

Oh, and harking back even further. Is your recycling susidised by government? If so, welcome to the fold Comrade.
Not by choice today, but when I was a kid money was made taking aluminum to scrap yards or selling bottles back to the bottling facility.

Not that forced government processes says anything about me or capitalism. It's the opposite, and it removes my choice, aka freedom.

That very much falls in to line with what I found. That many people had far more success with buying an old second hand microwave due to them being built to last. Seems you might be party to the conspiracy after all. For what it's worth, I was looking at anything up to the point where the abrupt jump up to 1000 odd dollars occurs. Best of the more affordable maybe.
Wait, how recent is this supposed conspiracy? Within the last decade? It's something that just started? After, say, 2005? So, after we began giving these companies tax incentives for being more efficient and even more for allowing their production process to be investigated for efficiency?

You know what, instead of trying to argue a series of "that precisely fits the conspiracy" and trying to prove a negative, I'm going to quit running circles around this 'yeah but still' argument and say this: If you can actually prove this violation of antitrust laws then prove it. Report it and when the news stories break you can say you told us so.

But for now, you keep believing that a reputation of bad reliability is a great practice in an industry with multiple new overseas competitors and done on purpose. That explains why Toyota is the biggest car seller worldwide, a reputation for bad reliability.

I think of it like a kid's party. Most of it will be good clean fun, albeit with a bit of "tit for tat" and a few sores on knees, but an outright bully in the mix is a different story. It's not about having no party (big empty rock), more about having no bully. If we can't play nice.....
So, I understand this, we are the bully? Then you do suggest killing off the human race is the best solution? Tell you what, I can get everyone on board with your plan, if you agree to go first.

It's the same response I give to anyone who suggests we do something I find utterly ridiculous. You first, then we will happily follow. Not even Congress or the president can agree to it, exempting themselves from all their "wonderful" ideas.

Ah, they really don't, since they've already been manufactured. That's the point.
I know, everyone only ever fix a broken car or buy used. What could go wrong?

Overall, I'm talking about the human race benefiting from some collective humility, and being smarter when trying do their good deeds.
Your lack of understanding how progress works is astounding. No technology started out as efficient as it becomes over time. Then as it becomes more efficient you have to slowly integrate the efficiency into the world. You seem to want to either make us fall back 200 years, get it right the first time, or not do it at all.
 
I need to learn to stop trusting my eyes, ears, and brain and start listening to random no-names on Internet-only videos and blogs.

Aliens are real, the government caused 9/11, and the food supply is purposely poisoned.

I see, some more mockery. Water flouridation as well? That's apparently for our health, and not the disposal of a noxious by-product. Yet, I know my rheumatoid arthritis symptoms cleared up when I stopped drinking from the water supply, and my teeth are still in very good shape.

Not that forced government processes says anything about me or capitalism. It's the opposite, and it removes my choice, aka freedom.

I was thinking back to how you stated that capitalism created the impetus for your recycling. If it has to be subsidised, then the collector is not engaging in a purely capitalist venture. As far as I know, only recycling of metals makes good business sense.
But for now, you keep believing that a reputation of bad reliability is a great practice in an industry with multiple new overseas competitors and done on purpose. That explains why Toyota is the biggest car seller worldwide, a reputation for bad reliability.

It would be naive to think that there is only one model for a good bottom line. How about deliberately making products look ugly? Would that be good for the bottom line? Apparently it can be. Home brand supermarket products are made to have the cheap look, to attract a certain demographic.
So, I understand this, we are the bully? Then you do suggest killing off the human race is the best solution? Tell you what, I can get everyone on board with your plan, if you agree to go first.

It's the same response I give to anyone who suggests we do something I find utterly ridiculous. You first, then we will happily follow.

Hehe, turns out that you're probably talking to the wrong person on this one. Picture Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon to know where this poor soul is at. Now, flame me with a retort on what is so obviously a lame "emotional ploy", or something.
Your lack of understanding how progress works is astounding. No technology started out as efficient as it becomes over time. Then as it becomes more efficient you have to slowly integrate the efficiency into the world. You seem to want to either make us fall back 200 years, get it right the first time, or not do it at all.

Gotta question the whole way through the process though. I thought that this was a discussion, but it seems more like you are accusing me of preaching, via preaching. Just relax, I'm more than happy if you get me all turned around on my "wayward" thinking. Surely we can talk about ideas and perceptions without bringing down the hammer at so many junctures.

Apologies to all that this has ended up with little or no content relevant to the thread topic.
 
Flouridation and the alleged complications of it are the product of government, not the free market. Toothpaste companies would be very happy if people had more cavities.

And yet, still, government removed the lead from gasoline.


Ah, they really don't, since they've already been manufactured. That's the point.

And here comes the shocker... if no brand new cars are made... where do you get secondhand cars from?

Even the best-made cars don't last forever. And keeping a fifty year old two-ton rustbucket with a carburetor on the road means you waste more money on gasoline than it would cost to buy a more recent, more economical car.


Overall, I'm talking about the human race benefiting from some collective humility, and being smarter when trying do their good deeds.

While both are true... there's a lot of assumptions you're making that simply don't hold up to the evidence.

While companies and the government do sometimes do things for entirely selfish reasons, grand conspiracies require the cooperation of people and companies who are uncooperative and singularly selfish.

Obsolescence is purely a function of the market. You can make a car that is very durable, very cheap and very economical, but not all three at the same time.

Foolkiller mentioned Toyota.

Toyota decimated the US Big Three over the past few decades by making cars that were very durable, very cheap and very economical. But the market is a cruel mistress. Toyota is now saddled with high costs and legacy costs and from the absolutely over-engineered Camry and Corolla of twenty years ago, their products have moved downmarket to meet the competition.

This is because Toyota so over-engineered the Camry that they didn't make money on it. They've had to cheapen out on every Camry since. It's not uncommon to hear complaints of poor interior quality from modern Toyotas, or of issues with quality... or of recalls. To stay competitive and profitable, Toyota has had to start cutting corners like everyone else does. And to finance the research and development that leads to highly economical and durable cars, they've had to extend the shelf-life of their components far beyond that of some competitors.

This is why your modern day Corolla has the same motor as one that rolled off the line thirteen years ago. And this is why the competition has finally caught up and is now starting to surpass Toyota in the fuel economy stakes.

Know a car company that refused to cut corners and save money where it was smart to save it? Saab. Look where that got them.

Yet, despite all this bad capitalist planned obsolescence, I can now go into a dealership and buy a Chinese truck (here, not there) for half-the-price of Japanese competitors, with Dana axles, a Borg-Warner transfer case, and a Cummins engine guaranteed for half-a-million kilometers between rebuilds.

Yay for "disposability".

-

You can purposely go downmarket (as your Supermarket example), but in the end, it's the actual performance of the product and whether it makes people want to come back that counts. Supermarkets sell mostly the same stuff from the same suppliers. The mark-up is in the store branding itself.

Lightbulbs are different. With seven billion potential customers, the one company that builds the "forever" bulb at the same price as other companies gains a stranglehold on the market, and won't run out of customers until all its filthy rich stockholders are dead and buried.

But that "Forever Bulb" doesn't exist. It's an engineering impossibility. Which is to mean, you could build it, but it would be expensive to build and run compared to more modern "disposable" bulbs you have to replace every decade or so. Commercial competition means that there are upstart companies building better bulbs than the corporate giants at lower prices, forcing them to slash prices to meet in the middle.

Which is why my house is now full of LED bulbs instead of CFLs or incandescents.
 
I see, some more mockery.
Considering your only evidence is that everything presented actually is described or proves your theory, the same response the proponents of the listed conspiracy theories use, what do you expect? If you don't want your ideas seen on the same level as Truthers and Birthers try new talking points.

Better yet, just address the questions I posed to you regarding your conspiracy theory. I opened the door for you to prove me wrong by asking for specific details, yet you ignore that and respond only to the stuff that doesn't require substance. See my posts are a mix trying to have some fun (and you told me to relax) and making serious attempts at addressing your comments with questions that allow you to address the reasons I have for not taking your theory serious.

Water flouridation as well?
This is a perfect example. I asked for specific details on microwave obsolescence. That was ignored and you seriously introduced a new conspiracy in response to what you stated to believe is mockery.

And I was referring to the current anti-GMO stuff.

That's apparently for our health, and not the disposal of a noxious by-product. Yet, I know my rheumatoid arthritis symptoms cleared up when I stopped drinking from the water supply, and my teeth are still in very good shape.
Unintended consequences or purposely poisoning the water supply?

I was thinking back to how you stated that capitalism created the impetus for your recycling.
You mean where I did it because I collected enough money to buy the next big toy as a kid? What would you call that? It wasn't out of some form of environmentalism or betterment of mankind. It definitely wasn't for any definition of planet. The town I grew up in still doesn't have a recycling pick up program.

If it has to be subsidised, then the collector is not engaging in a purely capitalist venture.
Sometimes governments decide a good idea should be done by everyone. Seatbelts, airbags, smart meters, recycling, etc. It's all stuff introduced by capitalism and that appeals to certain areas of the market, but government decides we should all do it, and the only way to guarantee 100% market saturation (something they deem illegal otherwise) is by regulation.

As far as I know, only recycling of metals makes good business sense.
Then why can you still get 5 cents back on glass bottles from the bottling plant? That's a concept as old as the milk man.

It would be naive to think that there is only one model for a good bottom line.
Right, which is why competing products have many differences. And I'm not denying that there are crooked business men out there trying to play the short game and swindle people, but as a vast industry-wide conspiracy it sounds too complicated to pull off.

How about deliberately making products look ugly? Would that be good for the bottom line?
Beauty, or ugly, is subjective. You prove it right here.

Apparently it can be. Home brand supermarket products are made to have the cheap look, to attract a certain demographic.
Do they buy it because they think it is ugly (and are they kin to Oscar the a Grouch?) or because what you think is ugly they think looks good?


Hehe, turns out that you're probably talking to the wrong person on this one. Picture Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon to know where this poor soul is at.
Climate change killed someone you loved and you're now mentally unstable?
:sly:

Gotta question the whole way through the process though.
There's questioning to say, this is a step to achieve something, now how do we make it better? And there is, well this isn't the end all, be all solution I want, so let's call it an overall failure. You seem to lean heavily toward the idea that technological progress isn't progress at all. Hybrid technology is a step toward full electric. And that isn't even the only alternative being researched and developed for locomotive technology.

The same goes for home energy production. Does coal have issues? Yes. Natural gas? Yes. Wind? Solar? Nuclear? Hydroelectric? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But are there different situations where each might be the best option until we find an overall better solution? Yes. Each is a step toward something better. None are proven to be completely ineffective, so they shouldn't be written off. Yesterday I read about a possible breakthrough in nuclear fusion. Imagine if those scientists gave the whole thing up as useless when they couldn't reach their end goal. No, instead they gained more knowledge by getting closer to the goal step by step, learning as they went. Now we may be at a turning point, where we could begin to see a possible clean energy in our future.

I thought that this was a discussion, but it seems more like you are accusing me of preaching, via preaching.
I'm just trying to explain that we are being smarter in our good deeds, but it can't just happen overnight and if no one participates in the goods produced by the learning process we will never reach the degree of "smart" you would find acceptable.
Just relax,
Considering what I was doing when I typed that, I was relaxed. Kind of had to be. Don't want to blow an O-ring.

I'm more than happy if you get me all turned around on my "wayward" thinking. Surely we can talk about ideas and perceptions without bringing down the hammer at so many junctures.
I'm asking questions you ignore and try to point out what I see as fallacies in your logic. How is that bringing down the hammer?

Look, men have not been good stewards of nature. No one denies that. But we have found better ways. Sometimes those ways have their own problems, so we try to fix it. We don't have all the answers, but that is no reason to claim its a failure or indicate that maybe the extinction of humans is the best option. You don't kick a kid out of school for failing to get all the answers right on a test, do you? No. You credit his success and hope he tries to improve on his weaknesses.

As a species we haven't graduated yet, but we haven't failed either.
 
This is a perfect example. I asked for specific details on microwave obsolescence. That was ignored and you seriously introduced a new conspiracy in response to what you stated to believe is mockery.

I introduced something new in an attempt to illustrate that it's not ridiculous across the board to entertain the idea of conspiracy theories. Any decently organised collusion or "evil scheme" would be very well hidden. That, by it's nature, makes conspiracy claims easy to cut of at the knees and mock, yes. I don't expect I could uncover much more on the microwave thing, and it wouldn't make sense if I could. See, I say it wouldn't really be a well organised conspiracy if I could prove it, then you can justifiably say "so you really have no real evidence". I get that, but I have my reasons. I try to put my drop in the ocean where possible, be it by going out of my way to advise someone on the truly better product, or by never using the auto checkout at a supermarket even it takes longer (it pains me to see workers pointing me to the thing that will make their own jobs redundant).

But, for a semi-token attempt to write about something possibly on topic I'll go back to pv panels. There was a proposal in Australia to have people buy in to solar farms, but instead of that more efficient way of doing it we have them on our own roofs. This is apparently because it was expected that people would feel as if they were not "connected" with their purchase. Now, we have panels at the wrong angle, hidden behind trees, and arguably ruining the look of our houses. I don't really care if something falls under the banner of conspiracy theory or not, I care about discussing things that will or might influence what companies and governments do. I think that cynicism that is sometimes misguided, is better than none at all.

Unintended consequences or purposely poisoning the water supply?

Unintended known consequences would be my thinking on it. With the original motivation either the genuine health one, or the waste disposal one.


You mean where I did it because I collected enough money to buy the next big toy as a kid?

No, I was referring to where you stated that due to capitalism, you now have two recycling cans.




Then why can you still get 5 cents back on glass bottles from the bottling plant? That's a concept as old as the milk man.

I think glass might be borderline. I know that over here the money comes more from the premium added to the cost price of a soft drink bottle for example.


Right, which is why competing products have many differences. And I'm not denying that there are crooked business men out there trying to play the short game and swindle people, but as a vast industry-wide conspiracy it sounds too complicated to pull off.

I thought that given the "stellar" performances I'd seen by sports people in tv ads, that they could never play out match fixing convincingly. Turns out I was wrong though. So if dumb people can do smart things, I shudder to think what smart and super-smart people could manage.


Beauty, or ugly, is subjective. You prove it right here.
Do they buy it because they think it is ugly (and are they kin to Oscar the a Grouch?) or because what you think is ugly they think looks good?

I think they buy it because it looks affordable, and as niky put it, "downmarket". I reckon that if at the same price point the person would go for the "beautifully packaged" version.



Climate change killed someone you loved and you're now mentally unstable?
:sly:

No, it's more that it'd make me happy that I didn't give it away for free. Riggs used his abandon to help achieve the capture of crims. Similarly, you may just be sweetening the deal with your proposal. And I would never insult others by saying that lightly.


There's questioning to say, this is a step to achieve something, now how do we make it better? And there is, well this isn't the end all, be all solution I want, so let's call it an overall failure. You seem to lean heavily toward the idea that technological progress isn't progress at all. Hybrid technology is a step toward full electric. And that isn't even the only alternative being researched and developed for locomotive technology.

No, I agree. I think we both like to scratch below the surface though. Obviously my wild accusations and hyperbole annoy some, but maybe we can play bad cop/crazy cop, and find some harmony.



See my posts are a mix trying to have some fun (and you told me to relax) and making serious attempts at addressing your comments with questions that allow you to address the reasons I have for not taking your theory serious.

I like the fun (I should have mentioned how much I appreciated the "win/win" comment), and the seriousness. What I pick up as well though is an element of subtle character assassination. You're not the first to use what I perceive as that approach either. I quite readily delve into self deprecation, but I'm not a dim wit, and I genuinely feel that some of the current mainstays in this section of the forum attempt to enhance their arguments by insinuating that I, and others, are.

Going back to population for a moment: You stated that current developed countries have lower birth rates, and you're right. You also stated that once other countries achieve developed status that they will also have lower birth rates. On this we can only hope that you are right. What I've read, and what I've seen suggests that people that have migrated from countries with cultures/religions with high birth rates, continue generally maintaining high birth rates when within developed countries. So again, I hope you're right.
 
@kikie That video seems legit. I think eventually we will get another ice age like in the movie "The Day After Tomorrow".

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The question is whether it happens before or after the Earth's oceans are boiled away by the expanding sun. One hopes we'll have moved off the Earth before that happens. More likely, however, our entire species will have shuffled off this mortal coil completely before then.
 
Ha hah!

Everybody knows that government institutionalizes itself. We now have whole armies of bureaucrats researching and writing laws to control global warming. And of course taxing business, individuals and municipalities for the cost.

Now it seems inevitable that a competing industry will arise to tax us at the same time to study and legislate against global cooling!

What delicious irony!

Obviously, "climate change" is a racket that zealous and self-interested people will exploit to feather their own beds in perpetuity. In such an ocean of contradiction and confusion, the only thing to take seriously is the cost of shoveling sand against both the ingoing and outgoing tides.
 
Ha hah!

Everybody knows that government institutionalizes itself. We now have whole armies of bureaucrats researching and writing laws to control global warming. And of course taxing business, individuals and municipalities for the cost.

Now it seems inevitable that a competing industry will arise to tax us at the same time to study and legislate against global cooling!

What delicious irony!

Obviously, "climate change" is a racket that zealous and self-interested people will exploit to feather their own beds in perpetuity. In such an ocean of contradiction and confusion, the only thing to take seriously is the cost of shoveling sand against both the ingoing and outgoing tides.
Climate change exists, but it's not the "We're all gonna die if we don't stop burning fossil fuels." The climate will continue to subtly change one way or another as part of global cycles that humans have essentially zero control over.

http://isthereglobalcooling.com/ another good read
 
Don't think about "global warming" or "climate change". These are confusing terms.

Think about "More energy in the earth's weather system" This means more extreme, stronger winds, bigger cyclones, hotter summers, colder winters.

Whether this is human induced or not does not really matter, we humans should be doing all we can to reduce our impact on the environment and atmosphere, we are well over populated beyond what the world could normally sustain.

We have created technology to sustain ourselves but unfortunately that same technology is reducing natures ability to sustain itself. Do we want to live in a world where there is nothing but food we have created in a lab out of dust and go to beaches who are man made underneath a dome or do we want to start minimizing our footprint and damage to the earth with smarter technology and smarter people while we still can, while we still have something beautiful outside? (I'm talking about damage that will occur in 100's of years time not the next 3 years of an election cycle)

I believe that humans need to realise just how powerful they are on this earth, the things they can impact and the things that they are capable of. Absolutely we could destroy the entire surface of the earth within 24 hours. But we need to stop thinking about and using old fashioned methods and tech - methods created when we did not know better.

We have the brains and tech to live in an almost completely sustainable manner without losing our luxuries (minus digging holes for metal as our recycling facilities will never be perfect). It would not take much, unfortunately no-one wants to pay for it, like it's not their responsibility.

Meanwhile we continue to mow down forests like it is our god given right and burn and pollute the air so much we cannot even breathe in some cities without filters and air-conditioners.


There are options with current tech that are relatively clean and not too complicated, however not something average joe could do or really have any effect on, someone needs to make a hard decision and put people out of work(from dirty industries), tell people to stop having more than 2 children, then spend a-lot of money, solar farm, wind farms, geothermal, tidal power, salt batteries, high density hydrogen fuel is around the corner, de-sal plants are almost free with green energy so we can stop draining our rivers... etc etc etc.

Cars, planes technology etc this will be slow. However a green energy grid for our countries can be bought tommorow....


As I say someone is going to need to make some hard decisions, "natural" movements from the public/consumers will take too long. I like burning fuel in my wrx just like the next guy, fuel costs an arm and a leg these days but it is still affordable. There is no incentive nor really any alternative choices for consumers to make.
Battery cars are not green whilst we power them with coal and not sustainable whilst we fill them with toxic and rare metals. Buying power from "green energy companies" still gets you power from a coal station, really what is the purpose for a consumer to do that.

The need for sustainable living with small or no footprint is clear, unfortunately politicians cannot see past the next election, big business is invested in old-tech and other billionaire's are constantly spending money on bandaids.

What we the public can do is to let the big boys know we accept there is a problem, we accept change is necessary and we want it, we accept we need to pay our way - and that we need your help, we need someone to force our hand and cause some short term pain for long term benefits.

The average person cannot build a geothermal plant or design a perfect fuel cell but we can use our voice and let everyone know that we want change.
 
Interesting and thought-provoking post 👍

While I agree with a large part of it, there is some stuff in there I don't agree with, such as the suggestion that people stop having more than 2 children. That isn't going to fly. While it may be a good idea in principle, the reality is that it will never be (and should never be) more than a suggestion, or piece of advice - as a rule or a law it is hideous and unacceptable.

I have been a firm advocate of letting the science speak for itself, and to this day, the denial machine is still in full swing. But, the science will only ever be a part of the story. The sad (and scary) reality is that the social impact of 'doing something about it' might be worse than doing nothing - e.g. forcing change upon people (up to and including dictating how many children one can have) is not the way forward.

I must admit that I have become very skeptical that there is anything we can do about climate change - not because possible solutions don't exist, but because some of these solutions are simply unjust. Telling billions of people in the developing world - who, incidentally, make up the vast majority of people on the planet - that they are not allowed to use natural resources the way we have is simply not fair - not only can we not stop them even if we wanted to, it is unjust to even suggest that they do as we say. The only hope is that a better alternative to 20th Century methods and attitudes to energy usage and pollution is found in time and that the developing world adopts these alternatives en masse - and the only way that will happen is if it benefits them economically. Frankly, I don't see it happening.

With that in mind, we will likely have little to no choice but to start thinking about mitigation rather than prevention.

Looks highly exaggerated.
It's not... it is just that the scale (upper left hand corner) is relatively small (e.g. the whole scale covers 4 degrees C)
 
The sad (and scary) reality is that the social impact of 'doing something about it' might be worse than doing nothing - e.g. forcing change upon people (up to and including dictating how many children one can have) is not the way forward.
Agree completely. Doing so is absolutely detrimental even to well-meaning pursuits.

A perfect example is increasingly-efficient cars. Car manufacturers have made bigger strides than just about any other industry to clean up their act. And customers, by and large, love the output - it's not only quicker and safer and more comfortable than ever before, but it's saving them money too.

You could make the argument that cars would naturally improve anyway even without tough emissions targets to meet, but to paraphrase the great auto writer LJK Setright, "what is good for efficiency is good for speed". In encouraging more efficient vehicles, cars as a whole have improved - aerodynamics, refinement, all the qualities people like in cars. And the pursuit of weight reduction, which makes current models feel far more fleet-footed than their lumbering predecessors, probably wouldn't have come about were it not for efficiency regulations.

However, then punishing consumers for not buying a particular type of car - or for not trading to an even more efficient model a handful of years after buying the last one - simply isn't the way to go about it. Penalizing people for not buying a car that wouldn't meet their needs anyway won't encourage understanding of the reasons behind it, it'll encourage resentment for the method taken.

I've mentioned it before, but the best way of getting people interested in anything under the "green" banner is to make those products and services attractive to buyers. Not to coerce or even force them into using them by strong-arm tactics.
I must admit that I have become very skeptical that there is anything we can do about climate change - not because possible solutions don't exist, but because some of these solutions are simply unjust. Telling billions of people in the developing world - who, incidentally, make up the vast majority of people on the planet - that they are not allowed to use natural resources the way we have is simply not fair - not only can we not stop them even if we wanted to, it is unjust to even suggest that they do as we say.
This issue also bothers me. It's all too easy to sit on a western high horse and say that Indo-China shouldn't pollute as much as they do, but there's no reason any of these people have less right to the same standards of living we do.

I suspect though that those countries may force their own hand on the issue. China is almost literally poisoning its own well at the moment with horrific air pollution. When your population starts dropping like flies due to the processes supposedly making their lives better, you have a very real reason to enact change.
 
there is some stuff in there I don't agree with, such as the suggestion that people stop having more than 2 children. That isn't going to fly. While it may be a good idea in principle, the reality is that it will never be (and should never be) more than a suggestion, or piece of advice - as a rule or a law it is hideous and unacceptable.

I agree completely, the idea is to educate people on sustainability and the need for it and they make up their own mind. People should be educated and understand continued population growth is not sustainable.
I don't understand, people are still touting and promoting population growth as if it is a good thing. It can't continue.

I never want to see men in masks take the kids and lock them away if they have 3 or 4 kids, not my desire at all.
I would look at it simply, banning couples having more than 2 kids by law (and removing child) is not sustainable. It cannot be maintained or upheld without destroying societies moral system.

Where I've grown up at-least it was sort of expected that a family has 4 kids or so, I mean the government wanted population growth for $$$ and actually gave parents $$$ for each kids they have so they can buy a big new TV (or a pram several times over ;)).
This attitude can't continue and I'm sure conversation in the media about this stuff is already affecting affecting couples thoughts about the family they want. Just like we seek smaller and smaller cars these days.


Telling billions of people in the developing world - who, incidentally, make up the vast majority of people on the planet - that they are not allowed to use natural resources the way we have is simply not fair - not only can we not stop them even if we wanted to, it is unjust to even suggest that they do as we say.
I don't see it much different to getting developed countries to do the right thing. I mean highly developed countries can't even tell themselves what to do.

I think the green energy thing will spread from developed areas quite naturally through business and investment once it gets in full swing there. Eventually the fuel cost will rise sharply too.

For example in Australia here we have wind-farms planned or being built - half Chinese owned, I'm sure this is not strange around the world but I have not researched. Funny huh, the Chinese buy our coal and then build us wind-farms (obviously that is a silly and simplistic view). Because many stupidly rich Australians prefer to dig up dirt with big trucks instead of think ahead ;)

I think an big issue perhaps you are concerned to is things like deforestation, they need wood for fire and building, clearly it is cheaper and more readily available to chop diverse old forests than it is to build plantations on already bare land. Somehow plantations need to be made cheaper and faster.
This is one of the toughest problems as a foresting infrastructure in developing countries is not as clear as fuel supply or electricity grid. It's hard to have and effect on it.

Unfortunately even in highly developed countries we can't even stop logging of old forest.


the sad (and scary) reality is that the social impact of 'doing something about it' might be worse than doing nothing

I think when I mean "do something about it" or "make a hard decision" to me this is about hard taxing or straight up banning sale of certain fuels or inefficient products just like it seems they have banned incandescent lights.
Or it could mean governments spending money just like any other infrastructure project straight on huge green energy projects and push the others out of usefulness. Isn't that the idea of taxes and the government? To do what needs doing when no-one else wants to?


In my opinion green energy for the entire grid is the simplest and easiest place to start, we already have the tech, electric cars and other portable motorised devices can come after that and it makes sense if they are going to feed off of it anyway.

Other pollution reduction and recycling efforts etc can also follow.



But I think as consumers we need to accept sometimes there may be some hard rulings and one day find that petrol has a 400% tax and Electric cars are still not cheap either, grid energy price is through the roof and the mining/pumping towns are broke with no work.
We cannot just be given everything expecting that business will always make more money selling a new technology, providing us value to buy the new-tech over old-tech, that is too simple and olden days thinking.


We have had a free ride for far-too-long and have not been paying the full REAL PRICE of what we use.

If we had a proper 'enviro tax' we should ideally be paying the real price, that is the 'sustainable price'. Yes how much does petrol cost then, woops?? AHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHA kick him out they say. :D
 
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Again, the issue with just banning things is that it annoys people who happen to like those things. You just need to look at the lightbulb thread elsewhere in this subforum to see the sort of irritation people have when a product they like (or are familiar with) is phased out - even if it's being phased out by something more reliable, longer-lasting and more electrically efficient and more luminescent like LEDs.

Tax is a touchy subject too, though one I don't doubt people would have less of a problem with if they were more confident it's being put to good use. It would be harder to stomach the UK's high fuel prices and vehicle taxation systems if, for example, those who used the roads saw some form of return in the form of better-maintained highways. But money sucked out of drivers can go virtually anywhere within the UK's spending plans, so there's little quantifiable return on the huge amounts of money we spend.

Personally, I'd gladly see fuel taxation raised a little if annual vehicle tax were abolished. I don't drive much in my own vehicles each year, so I see no reason why, if I choose to buy something a bit flash, I should have to pay an elevated tax based on its CO2 emissions. If I'm not producing CO2 by not driving my car, why should I be taxed more than someone with a smaller car, who does 15k miles a year? If there's such thing as a fair tax, fuel tax is it, since the amount you pay is directly proportional to the amount you use. Not even income tax is that indiscriminate.

The other thing is that for naturally selfish human nature to change on "green" issues, those involved must also appeal to natural human laziness. If your local authority makes it really easy to recycle, for example, then people will recycle. There need not be an incentive for something that requires little thought in the first place. People will naturally do the "right" thing if they feel it either benefits them, or doesn't detract from them in any way.
 
The big issue is that economic growth and sustainable don't necessarily go together. Our global economy is one that is based on growth. And growth requires a growing amount of energy. Which isn't easy to provide... even with the current non-renewable fuel resources. With renewables, we will definitely struggle, and might well fail in many areas.

In the end, we may simply have to learn how to live with economic contraction, in order to survive into the next millenium. To lower the energy requirements of our modern lifestyle. We already have some of the means to do so. Increasing interconnectivity is making motoring less of a requirement for many modern people. If we can adapt our social structures to a digitally-driven society, we can possibly cut transportation, construction and physical infrastructure costs even further. (We will, however, need to invest more heavily in space and increasing bandwidth).

The real boogeyman is the population. Explosive growth fueled by economic activity fueled by oil. When that's gone, the question is whether the population contracts with a bang or a whimper. I hope for the latter.
 
The real boogeyman is the population. Explosive growth fueled by economic activity fueled by oil. When that's gone, the question is whether the population contracts with a bang or a whimper. I hope for the latter.
Increasing development and education should slow population growth, so there's hope yet.
 
We have billions of poor now because the margins of our oil-based economy gives enough excess capital to feed those who can't feed themselves. Much like a city can support a large number of unemployed, because wasted money (given as alms), food (scraps, garbage) and living space (alleys, under bridges, etcetera) attract more people to utilize it.

We are brimming over with a tidal wave in terms of population growth because we are currently filthy rich. If we weren't, people would die of starvation before delivering. In the future, we won't be rich, and more people will.

While I do believe that education and (some) prosperity do help slow or reverse growth, both activities require massive energy inputs. And the question is whether we can do enough of either to reverse the upward population trend at all before the inevitable downward slope caused by a low-energy future.
 
Europe is in recession. And the rate is actually rising again.

There are some signs that lowered rates due to education and women empowerment might simply delay the choice to have children, not remove it... so there's a slight "rebound" curve when those wome start having children five to ten years later than their mothers did.
 
My wife and I only have one child, and have no intent to have more.

Can I have my incandescents and a flushing toilet back now? Or do I need to spill some gasoline at every fill up to balance out my footprint?
 
Let's just not financially support families with more than 2 kids at all.

Sure, it's not particularly nice. You know what else isn't nice? World population growing even further past sustainable numbers.
 
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