GM to Ally with Nissan-Renault? Probably Not Going to Happen (10/4/2006)

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
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Oh my god, I couldnt' disagree more, YSSMAN. Do you really think that reason the mighty GM is trying to forge alliance is so they can share technology? If GM actually believe that sharing OnStar, hybrid, powertrain, etc. is the key to recovering and beating Toyota, then they have no hope. We can just kiss them goodbye right now, because that is not why GM is in a survival mode right now.

When GM and Renault-Nissan get together, they won't be talking much about how they can build great cars together. Talks should be about the business. Finances, labor issues, strategy, stuff like that.
 
a6m5
When GM and Renault-Nissan get together, they won't be talking much about how they can build great cars together. Talks should be about the business. Finances, labor issues, strategy, stuff like that.
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Yep they are my thoughts, technology sharing may come into play down the track but first its business and game plan.
 
Well, maybe I'm oversimplifying the entire outlook on what could happen. Obviously they are working together to protect oneanother from Toyota and are looking to make money to the best of their ability.

But keep in mind, nothing has happened yet. Although Nissan has offically said that they aren't against the proposal, the nation of Japan isn't too keen on it. As for the Renault end of the deal, nothing offical out of them yet either. Will the French folks be pissed too?

Then again, I don't know. I think more about the possibilities of what could happen, not the realities of what will happen. Thanx in part to my second-favorite automotive read, The Auto Extremist, my opinon has shifted slightly. To get a rough idea of what he thinks, here ya go...

Autoextremist.com
Kerkorian + York + Ghosn is a formula for disaster for General Motors. I see no reason to sugarcoat that fact. These mercenaries will destroy everything in their path to get what they want - at 89 years old, Kerkorian gets to play The Game a little longer, York gets the respect he has hungered so long for, and Ghosn gets to inflate his runaway ego even further.

And if an American icon gets destroyed in the process, then so be it.
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Most of his story has to do with the fact that what may happen could destroy everything GM has been working twards in this past generation of vehicles. Vastly improved performance, better refinement, higher quality, etc could all be thrown out the window if the cost-cutting schemes of "Carlos the Great" gets his hands on The General.

So how do I stand? Yes and no I guess. I'd like to see technology sharing indeed, but to have Nissan-Renault essentially "bail-out" GM while they do the name to Nissan USA isn't worth it.
 
If you were Nissan or Renault fan, you should be concerned. Sure Renault ressurected Nissan recently, but GM is arguably in much worse shape than Nissan was. Also, if they fail, GM falling is like a giant falling. It will affect Nissan and Renault as well. It's a risk. And if you are GM fan, you also should be concerned about this alliance, but in your case, something has to happen for GM. A change, a revamp. Even if Nissan and/or Renault reject the proposal, GM needs to do something to get back in the right form.
 
GM is on the road to recovery, most folks would admit it, and this could help or hurt the process.

...After reading the full article, I'm a bit confused, and now I'm doubting the deal as a whole. It all appears to be a good way for Nissan-Renault and their investors to make S-Loads of money, but now the benefits for GM seem to be rahter transparent.

Maybe the Auto Extremist is right. With Wagoner and Lutz at the wheel at GM, chances are the deal won't go through. Not only the upper management would have to approve, but also the board, and the investors themselves. Granted, if Nissan-Renault really wants a piece of GM, what is holding them back from buying the 20% or more in stock?

Technology sharing in an "alliance" is one thing, but a takeover from the basement is another.

BTW: Lutz is still my #1 guy when it comes to the industry in Detroit, quite frankly anywhere in the world. If "Carlos the Great" is so wonderful, I'd be willing to be with Luts at the wheel at GM, people would forget about Carlos and thus the halls would fill with the chant of "Bob, Bob, Bob!"
 
News from Nissan:

Leftlanenews.com
Nissan has issued a second statement on the proposed Renault-Nissan-GM alliance (see original report): "The Board of Directors of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd, met today. The meeting was chaired by Nissan President and CEO Carlos Ghosn and included discussion on the events following the initiative taken by Tracinda Corporation regarding General Motors forming a new alliance with Renault and Nissan. The Board of Directors approved that Nissan should proceed with exploratory discussions concerning a potential alliance with General Motors, if General Motors Corporation supports and endorses the proposal made by its shareholders. The Board of Directors delegated all the necessary powers to the Chairman of the Board, President and CEO, Carlos Ghosn, to conduct any discussions and negotiations on this matter."
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...So they want to go for it for sure, but the American press is starting their backlash as well...

Leftlanenews.com
Forbes columnist Jerry Flint has published his thoughts on the possible Renault-Nissan-GM tie-up. Borrowing a term coined years ago by Lee Iacocca, Flint asks if a "Global Motors" really makes sense. "So whose plants get closed? Shut German GM plants and supply that market with French-made Opels? Close Michigan plants and supply dealers with Nissans made in Tennessee but badged as Chevys? Lay off the engineering staffs where? France? The U.S., Japan? Which dealerships get combined or closed? […] Sometimes these conglomerations work–and sometimes they don't." He also wonders if GM would really be ready for the massive shakeup it would receive. "If Carlos Ghosn becomes part of GM, don’t expect him to play as a bit actor–for long. He doesn’t think much of GM’s American management. […] So Ghosn would demand massive changes and fast, and the world would expect him to be calling the shots, not the Detroit managers."
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^ They make a good point there. At the moment, things are just too complicated to really get anything good done.
 
Technology I would like to see shared between Nissan and GM.

GM's AFM/DOD technology.

Nissans V-6 expertise.

GM/DC/BMW's Dual Mode Hybrid

Nissans 4 Banger expertise.


As for the mileage, seamless DOD/AFM does a lot for a V-8, it isn't all the transmission, and small blocks spin pretty nicely if you tune them for making top end power, not just torque.
 
YSSMAN
^ They make a good point there. At the moment, things are just too complicated to really get anything good done.
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That LeftLaneNews thing you got there supported another reason why I wouldn't want this GM merging with Nissan/Renault stuff. Too much complication to begin with and I think it will take too long to do. It will sure stir up the market and such and even jobs. Too many problems and too little time.
 
The Auto Extremist is worried about it being too positive for the Nissan-Renault group, with little benefit for GM.

...I'm kinda hoping that Wagoner and Lutz shoot it down as quickly as possible as of now, as I'm sure the majority of their shareholders will as well when the time comes for a vote (assuming that there is one).
 
I'm doubtful of it also. That's why it took me so long to respond to this, despite being a Nissan-man at heart.

While Ghosn has helped revive Nissan (and if you believe AE's view, purely through hack-n-slash while engineers creating new products were the actual architects of the revival), I don't see much that Nissan has to give GM at the moment. Sure, there's the FM platform architecture and that wonderful V6, as well as Renault's diesels, but Nissan's small cars aren't that much better than GM's at the moment, and their new four bangers have been a disappointment...

Don't get me wrong, the QG was an okay economy engine, but the QR? First we had the cat problems, then we have QRs conking out off the line... again? This far down the road?!?

That's where I disagree with AE. Ghosn actually did help Nissan with the hack-n-slash, as, although they do have good new products, these were developed before Ghosn, and even under Ghosn, they're still selling some of the same old uncompetitive models (the Sentra, for one) but are now making a profit off of them.

But I think AE is right on the Kerkorian angle. Partly, Kerkorian is looking for a Ghosn-style hack-n-slash of GM's problematic budget... to help make GM smaller, smarter and more competitive. But this is exactly what GM is doing now... isn't it? With their Union buy-outs, plant closures and the like... A more compelling argument is that he wants to boost GM's stocks by having it associated with Ghosn's sexy business profile.

And Ghosn is definitely tickled pink about the whole thing. This way, he could become the most powerful man in the automotive industry... and automatically the head of the biggest car company ever. But I don't think that it'd work. Three companies are just two too many for one President, no matter how good he may be.
 
niky
but Nissan's small cars aren't that much better than GM's at the moment, and their new four bangers have been a disappointment...
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But a rebadged Mk III Clio would be perfect.
renaultsport-clio-iii-20050810114230354.jpg
 
Very good post, Niky!

GM's situation of all-around changing doesn't quite match up to having Nissan-Renault join the party. With GM's movement twards smaller employment, cut product lines, smaller dealer networks, and an all-out switch to RWD as a possibility in some situations, they indeed have very little to gain from Nissan-Renault other than diesel technology.

...But even then, what GM would theoretically stand to gain from Nissan, could they not pick up the same technology from their Opel/Vauxhall subsibiary? They are undoubtedly the technology and refinement leaders at GM (Cadillac not included), and their diesel technology couldn't be that horrible by comparison to that of Mercedes or VW, argueably the best diesel makers out there today.

It is becoming clearer and clearer that this is a deal created only for "Captian Kirk" and Nissan-Renault. As more analists chime in here in North America, the buzz is dying off rather quickly as they tag this as a poo-poo story. I doubt now if Wagoner will let it go through, so we will just have to wait and see.
 
ultrabeat
But a rebadged Mk III Clio would be perfect.
renaultsport-clio-iii-20050810114230354.jpg
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We already have one (okay, it's a bit more than a rebadge, but it's close enough):
ns2007versa5d1818399m.jpg


The Renault looks much better... until we get that one, that is:

thumb-nissan_versa_1_01.jpg


The new Sentra also shares the same platform as the Clio, if I'm not mistaken.
 
Carl.
We already have one (okay, it's a bit more than a rebadge, but it's close enough):
ns2007versa5d1818399m.jpg


The Renault looks much better... until we get that one, that is:

thumb-nissan_versa_1_01.jpg
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Nah-ah, the Verso is a rebadged and slightly changed Megane

I think Nissan mucked it up too though.

megane.jpg

breve-megane-clim.jpg


^Designs like that are why I've fallen in love with Renault (and Citroen for that matter)

The Megane is a decent car, but the Clio is leagues ahead of the competition.
 
Well, that's interesting to note.

The Megane still provides an enthusistic drive, so still not to worry.


I think Renaults should be sold in the US.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd go for a Clio, but thats about it. Of course, they are going to have to be able to beat the VW Rabbit/Golf out the door in pricing and standard features, and that may be a tough thing to do in the US market.
 
I think Renault dealers would have a tough time trying to sell in some areas after a catfight at the UN...

For some reason, freedom fries comes to mind. Nissan doesn't have such issues.
 
...Renaultsport Clio 197 is a mighty tasty alternative to my GTI favorite, but I'd have to drive one before saying anything solid.
 
well in theory the clio is a class down from it, being theyre polo fighter, but the clio would beat the GTI around ever track going by the last version. Reliability and build quality leaves alot to be desired though. Pure fun theyre meant to be though.
 
YSSMAN
Very good post, Niky!

GM's situation of all-around changing doesn't quite match up to having Nissan-Renault join the party. With GM's movement twards smaller employment, cut product lines, smaller dealer networks, and an all-out switch to RWD as a possibility in some situations, they indeed have very little to gain from Nissan-Renault other than diesel technology.
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The problem is that the changes that GM have put in place are not working fast enough for shareholders, the industry still sees GM as 'in trouble' and a link with Renault-Nissan could be a tempting chance for a lot of them. That potential change in shareholder attitude could be worth a lot to GM.

In addition while GMs changes are at best seen as working slowly, CG has a proven track record at R-N.


YSSMAN
...But even then, what GM would theoretically stand to gain from Nissan, could they not pick up the same technology from their Opel/Vauxhall subsibiary? They are undoubtedly the technology and refinement leaders at GM (Cadillac not included), and their diesel technology couldn't be that horrible by comparison to that of Mercedes or VW, argueably the best diesel makers out there today.
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Opel/Vauxhall got all of their diesel technology from Fiat, who along with Audi and Honda make some of the finest diesel engine availiable.

Currently GM (including Opel/Vauxhall) are now having to play catch-up in regard to diesel technology, so a tie up with R-N would help in that regard.


YSSMAN
It is becoming clearer and clearer that this is a deal created only for "Captian Kirk" and Nissan-Renault. As more analists chime in here in North America, the buzz is dying off rather quickly as they tag this as a poo-poo story. I doubt now if Wagoner will let it go through, so we will just have to wait and see.
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Funny I saw a piece on this on both American and British news this evening, mention was made of R-N possiably taking as much as 20% of GM.

It should also be remembered that public information like this is rarely the start of the story, if this is all true then people from the two companies will already have met. Normally when it gets to the point at which a public meeting of the bigwigs is announced, at least a basic 'understanding' will have already been made. Its just not worth the negative press to do it any other way.

Now thats not to say that it makes it a done deal by any stretch, but they have announced this it is a major indicator.

Regards

Scaff

Regards

Scaff
 
The fight happens tomorow...

Leftlanenews.com
GM's board of directors will meet tomorrow (Friday) to discuss a plan from billionaire shareholder Kirk Kerkorian that would link GM with Renault and Nissan. And according to sources cited by Reuters, GM CEO Rick Wagoner is likely building a coalition to fight Kerkorian. Tomorrow, Wagoner and his supporters will be fighting to keep GM's turnaround plan in motion and perhaps save his career. We look forward to hearing what happens tomorrow…
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I think Wagoner and friends will stop it, if not, the shareholders will.
 
Why is this "Billionnare Shareholder" so desperate to forge this alliance between GM and Renault-Nissan? Couple of scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head:

1) GM is going down. Kerkorian is going to try to save GM, even if he has to fight Wagoner. Wagoner can not cooperate. The alliance will mean he is finished(or at least, down a peg).

2) GM is recovering, but too slowly for the shareholders. Kerkorian is working with Renault-Nissan, so they can both come out winners at GM's expense.

Sounds bit dramatic, I know. But what's going on right now within General Motors is dramatic.
 
My understanding is that he not only owns shares in GM, but also in Nissan-Renault, so he would theoretically be making money on both ends, thus American greed destorying an American company.

No news yet on the meetings lead by Wagoner today, but I have to be to work shortly after Noon, so I won't know anything untill after 9PM tonight...
 

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