GM to Ally with Nissan-Renault? Probably Not Going to Happen (10/4/2006)

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
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Die-dum-tee!

"I'll be here all week folks! Tip your waiters and waittresses!"

I thought it was funny, but thats just me. Given that most import fans can't see past the Blue-Oval or Bowtie on the hood of most American cars, it really surprises me when they end up hating on of their own kind (Ford Fusion!) or completely write off a great European car (Saturn Aura!).

I'm fine with people not liking GM or Ford, but they also need to get their facts straight as well. American cars and trucks are just as good, but they need to get their anti-American perspective out of their head before they can see the value of the cars themselves.
 
Well GM and Ford have the most quality control and reliability issues on this side of the pond and considering they are made here for our market are not any cheaper and often more expensive than factory Imports.
 
YSSMAN
Die-dum-tee!

"I'll be here all week folks! Tip your waiters and waittresses!"

I thought it was funny, but thats just me. Given that most import fans can't see past the Blue-Oval or Bowtie on the hood of most American cars, it really surprises me when they end up hating on of their own kind (Ford Fusion!) or completely write off a great European car (Saturn Aura!).

I'm fine with people not liking GM or Ford, but they also need to get their facts straight as well. American cars and trucks are just as good, but they need to get their anti-American perspective out of their head before they can see the value of the cars themselves.

Most import fans? I think there are all types of people in every camp. Is it your opinion that there aren't millions of misinformed Ford/GM/Chrysler fans in this country?

Edit: ultrabeat and Mods:I don't think anything I have said is participating in this "Import vs. American" argument(if you can call it that). I'm not taking any sides here. If anything, I am dismissing it.
 
Ok, let's stop this right now.

This will NOT become an Import vs. American cars like so many others.
Not the time, not the place guys.

Onikaze
Let the Muscle Cars have another chance to play, America wants them!

We all want them!
 
ultrabeat
Ok, let's stop this right now.

This will NOT become an Import vs. American cars like so many others.
Not the time, not the place guys.


Good idea.




Anyway alittle off topic, the long awaited VE (Zeta) Commodore is supposed to be at dealers next month, when is the US Zeta based cars supposed to becoming available?
 
1) I had no intention of making this an America vs the World thread, but I will correct and defend for our companies when the time comes...

2) Zeta/VE cars in the US are supposed to be here next spring I belive, and that is an early guestimation. We still do not have any offical annoucements or photots what what exactly GM is planning to do other than the times that Mr. Lutz has said that GM will be going RWD. According to the American press, they often make it sound as though the Camaro and Impala would be the first of the Zeta cars to make it to production sometime in 2007 as a 2008, or in 2008 all together. The GTO and Grand Prix would come afterwards, and then somewhere inbetween the Monte Carlo and Invicta/Statesman (still no offical decision on the name) as well.
 
I dont think this was heading towards america vs the world at all. As you were boys. Interesting conversation. 👍
 
Poverty
I dont think this was heading towards america vs the world at all. As you were boys. Interesting conversation. 👍
:lol:

Either way, we were off-topic, so I shouldn't have been discussing that with YSSMAN anway. I guess ultrabeat was just being extra careful, and I don't blame him for that. Especially, when some of the threads in the past had turned nasty with bunch of fanboys.

I'm no Mr. Perfect, but I usually get the urge to say something, if I see any uncalled generalization.

My apologies to YSSMAN for derailing his thread, which indeed has very interesting topic. 👍
 
I hope that some of you are not pulling how GM cars are doing better by getting information from magazines, newspapers, etc. Just because a magazine shows how well a car can perform on the track or street, it doesn't mean its reliable. Reliability is the main concern as of right now in the customers view. When GM fails to do that, customers will look onto something else. Media is not the only way to judge a cars REAL performance. Talking with owners and going around to shops will REALLY tell you how bad or good a car is. That is why I don't really pay attention to magazines when they compare cars. All they tell is how well they perform and thats it. You look at magazines just to look for numbers that mean to you like 1/4 mile time, gas mileage, weight, and track times. I always suggested to people, that if you really want to know the car, test drive it and ask the owner for an honest view of how reliable the car really is. So where do I get mines?

I got my information from working out in the automotive field. I see what is wrong, I hear what is wrong, and I help troubleshoot with what is wrong. It happens over and over again as I see more and more GM cars being pulled into the shop having either a starting problem or an overheating problem.

I also got my information from few of my instructors who worked for GM for 10+ years. Oh my god...They sadly SADLY admit that imports will generally last longer than GM built cars. Even worse, they drive imports now....WHY?

Because the "*hit" broken light never comes on!

I used to love GM cars, especially the old school GM cars. I just don't see how they can come back really. Sure you can brag about the new Z06 performance, but that car alone will not be enough to bring GM out of trouble. The best way I see it is that they need to grab the bigger part of the market. They need to attract customers who are willing to pay from like 10K to 25K for a new car. GM is not doing a good job in my view since I see so many imports nowadays in school parking lots. The next generation teens are buying imports, but why not GM cars? This is simply no longer of an opinion of GM cars is or not reliable.

It ISN'T....
reliable
attractive
comfortable
simple

 
You are entitled to your own opinion, but I too am speaking from a point of exprience (my family has been driving GM cars and trucks since 1960, before that Chryslers and Plymouths only). Every single one of our GM cars and trucks have ran just as well as any of our Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volkswagens that have sprinkled my family's automotive history, immediate family or not.

Thusly, I look at it as a combination of my own expririence, and expiriences of others as posted in automotive resports such as those that come from JD Power and Consumer Reports. Obviously, for the most part, Japanese automakers generally rank higher than the bread-and-butter American automotive brands. But when GM carries the number two and three spot respectively (Buick and Cadillac, behind Lexus) those are solid numbers that prove that their cars are more relyable than some of their foreign competition.

You seem to mention starting issues and overheating problems quite often, care to detail what cars and trucks that is happening with? Our Astros had several problems with overheating, but that was because of bad thermostats on the 4.3L V6, a common problem from what I understand with those. Generally speaking however, they didn't go out untill almost 100,000 miles each time, and considering how cheap and easy it is to replace a thermostat, its not a big deal. VIPERGTSR01 often points out that the old 3.8L V6 also had some overheating problems when they were used down in Australia, but to my knowlege, that has been a rare occourance here with my family's Pontiacs and Buicks.

As for the starting issues, I can't explain that one. GM products generally have fewer starting issues than most Ford or DCX vehicles (DCX have always had poor starters on their Chrysler vehicles). Either the driver had a low battery and was attempting to crank the engine too long, or they may have had a faulty starter. Again, none (and I mean absolutely NONE) of our GM vehicles have had that problem, so I'm not sure what the case was there.

But overall, I would suggest that you not make overgeneralizations of GM products based on a few Chevy Celebrites that came into Pep Boys. Toyota and Honda have both been in a prodcut quality free-fall of which I belive comes from their increased production levels and the demand to create all-new products far more often. Hell, even Hyundai is about ready to enter the top-five marques for top relyability, and combine that with their obsurdly good warranty, and you will be buying a car that souldn't ever give you a problem.

GM might not be able to fix their situation with every young pupil out there today, but they have done enough to bring interest back to the brand. Cars like the Cobalt SS, G6 Convertable, Solstice, Sky, Camaro, GTO, Corvette, STS, CTS, etc have all brought attention back to GM as they have begun their turnaround (slowly) twards where they need to be to become a profitable company once again. GM has allready said they don't care if they aren't the world's largest automaker, they care about making products people want to buy, and they want to be able to satisfy their fanbase allready.

I'm happy to debate this with you, as this is an issue that GM will have to tackle in making a decision for or against a merger with Nissan-Renault. Nissan-Renault themselves aren't particularly well-known for their reliability or build quality (argueably worse than the majority of GM products), but it would be interesting to see what could come of that in the future, should the merger go through.
 
But YSSMAN, GM's so icky and dirty! Can't touch anything from them...it's just so... :yuck:










































[/satire]
 
I don't want this to become a GM versus everyone thread, so everyone try to tie things in with the topic at hand...

I thought of this earlier today: How well are GM subsidaries like Opel/Vauxhall and Holden going to take to a possible matchup with Nissan-Renault? Given that they are undoubtedly the engineering powerhouses at GM, will they be able to stand having Nissan or Renault take the spotlight away from them?
 
In Australia no, in America yes. GM's flagship over here is Cadillac and Pontiac...both of which do not have a voice like they did in the older generations.
 
Oh dear..

There went another "American" Automaker.. There's still hope in Ford...

Anyways..

I just hope Carlos doesn't try to take over GM.

GM's build quality isn't bad at all.

Little Bahamut, you work at pepboys. For every person that comes in because his 3800 or 4.3 is overheating or breaking alternator shafts, there's probably 1000 others on the road with the same car that aren't having any problems at all. Plus, I'm not questioning pepboys' service and selection, but I'd venture to say that their parts selection is predominantly domestic. I know that I ran all around town for a Toyota alternator fuse that I ended up ordering from the dealer.

Let's face it. All cars have an equal chance of breaking down. When one thinks about it, the fact that an explosion can take place a few thousand times per minute in a closed area between two machined chunks of steel bolted together is a miracle. It's a miracle that it happens maybe several million times throughout the motor's lifetime. It's a miracle that ceramics can clamp to spinning steel discs (without destroying the disc) , and stop a 3500 pound object that was previously going 56 miles per hour.

I'm surprised that car's don't break down more often.


It'll get better. Saturn's looking strong, and the cancerous modela are being removed. I think Billy Durant's baby has a bright future.


(In no was was I trying to start a GM vs. world argument)
 
I don't mean to start another GM vs world argument. I only mean to give out from what I see in the shop while doing my as part-time job as an Installer (Change oil, change tires, basic stuff). People at my school also start up heated topics out in the lunch area once in a while like this. Its funny to see a bunch of UTI students like me gather around in a line and debate over American vs Domestic during lunch time. I think I have just carried some of my stress into this thread.

I am sorry that I put huge amount of steak and sushi and put way too much fire into this thread. I respect everyone's opinion on this tread, but sometimes opinions clash like noodles and milk. We know those two definatly don't mix so thats why I got a bit heated up.

To quickly get to the point after thinking of what I said and done to this thread. I would like to also input that another reason why I strongly dissapprove this GM and Nissan/Renault alliance thing is because their idea, goals, and belief don't mix well.

Steak and Sushi definately don't mix! You don't put sushi and steak on the same plate and eat it.
 
LittleBahamut

To quickly get to the point after thinking of what I said and done to this thread. I would like to also input that another reason why I strongly dissapprove this GM and Nissan/Renault alliance thing is because their idea, goals, and belief don't mix well.
Exactly the same thing was said of the Renault Nissan alliance, the cultures will never mix, they have different aims, etc.

Utter tosh, all parties involved want to sell as many cars to as many people as the can, in as many markets of the world and maintain a healthy return in the process. You can't get much more in line with each other than that.


LittleBahamut

Steak and Sushi definately don't mix! You don't put sushi and steak on the same plate and eat it.
You could quite easily have Sushi for one course followed by some nice teriyaki beef, goes together quite well actually.

Regards

Scaff
 
I lust over the idea of having a Miata and a new Mustang in my driveway at once.

Steak and Sushi ftw!

Btw, you cannot judge an entire brands reliability on limited stories from people who come into pep boys or autozone for trivial vehicle maintenance issues. The most common source of vehicular breakdown is user negligence.
 
Now that the man has spoke for himself, I'm a bit warmer to the proposition, but I would still procede with caution going into this deal.

...But Ghosn makes an interesting proposition with the possibility of keeping GM plants open in order to build Nissan/Infiniti products in the US...

Autoextremist.com
First of all, anyone who thinks Wagoner and Co. will just blithely "sign up" for the Kerkorian-York-proposed alliance is dreaming. They will, however, likely make a counter-proposal suggesting investigating a series of limited arrangements that they can live with, such as:

A joint-venture on an engine manufacturing facility, much like DaimlerChrysler, Hyundai and Mitsubishi have with their Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance World Engine Plant in Dundee, Michigan. This plant could be placed anywhere in the world and would reward all parties with access to a low-cost, world-class engine.

An agreement to build a parts facility, again giving all parties access to a low-cost source for selected parts to use around the world.

A joint purchasing agreement on steel and other manufacturing essentials.

And even investigating shared platforms down the road.

...Read more of the article here, it is interesting.
 
still depressing thoughts. that the only remnant of GM wioll be the plants.

btw, I don't think it's the actual parts that are crappy, after looking through some back stuff of mine, I'm beginning to think that mabey it's the current batch of UAW boys (given in the collective sense). mabey it's just a paycheck now? who knows.

Little Bahamut: as a part purchasing person in a big auto parts chain, you'd have an inside track as to the most purchased parts for each brand and vehicle. as I have no idea of the nearest location of Pep Boys on the east coast (i only see national commercials, and have no idea where they are), I couldn't give a feedback report of my own. we deal with "advance", "car Quest" and a big rig shop that just moved into the area that does car parts on the side. the nearest Auto Zone that I know of is something like 50 miles/80km NORTH of me. all I know concerning quality after having gone through 12 vehicles since I started driving, due to parts too dang expensive to replace. and I'm talking basic engine stuff.

this STILL sounds cold and pessimistic. the outlook is bleak sounding, and I can't check media of any kind on a damn dialup to confirm
 
Thats a good interesting video, thanks for posting YSSMAN.
 
A pleasure. I think it explains the situation a bit more, which is a good thing. Instead of everyone guessing about what is going on, we can actually find out what the execs are thinking...
 
Great video, indeed. Interesting that Ghosn brought up the Chrysler "merger". Way he took over (the charge of)Nissan, clearly, GM supporters(YSSMAN, especially :D) don't have to worry about the backdoor violation Daimler-Benz pulled on Chrysler. I liked the part where he started telling that "instead of closing GM plants...." story to smokescreen massive cutbacks he has planned.

Sniffs
btw, I don't think it's the actual parts that are crappy, after looking through some back stuff of mine, I'm beginning to think that mabey it's the current batch of UAW boys (given in the collective sense). mabey it's just a paycheck now? who knows.
Are you saying what I think you are saying? :D Quality of the parts are one thing, but you also need quality in way they are put together. If so, I agree with you.
 
Nice video YSSman 👍 . I still however dissapprove the alliance stuff with GM. I wonder if it have anything to do with me living in southern California most of my life. :nervous:
 
Well, there has been a poll done in my home-state:

Leftlanenews.com
Most Michiganders say an alliance between General Motors, Renault, and Nissan would be good for GM. At the same time, many are afraid it could be bad for the UAW, according to a Detroit Free Press poll. 53% said it would be good, 26% bad and 21% unsure about the impact on GM. In terms of the impact on the UAW, 41% said it would be bad, 36% said it would be good, and 23% were unsure.

And then there is Wagoner about his job...

Leftlanenews.com
General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner is confident in his role at the helm of the world's largest automaker, he said in an interview with NewsWeek. "I'm quite sure that I'm the right guy to run GM," he said. Adding that he's very "straightforward, thoughtful and very driven." He said he feels "very secure" in his job, and is not worried about Carlos Ghosn taking over. "No [board member] has expressed dissatisfaction with me. And if one steps back and looks at the facts, the pace of the turnaround is exceptionally fast," he said. He said he didn't think there's any need to change GM's turnaround effort or his style of leadership. "I think it's exactly why we've been able to do remarkable stuff here in the span of a year," he said. "Why would anybody want to change that? That's the craziest thing I've ever heard."

The only other man I'd want to run GM would be Lutz, but he is serving well in product design and development.
 
YSSMAN
The only other man I'd want to run GM would be Lutz, but he is serving well in product design and development.
What about Roger Penske, assuming those occasional rumors about him were to come to fruition? Probably never going to happen, but you have to wonder...
 
a6: yup. I've been doing a carwatch since highschool, reading reviews and car mags and that nasty comsumer mag that worships Ralf Nader (sp?) american assembly quality seems to be on the floor, nowadays. think about this. honda's clone of an Isuzu built in the US recieved almost solid • in every rating even when new, while the japan assembled Hondas recieved all A's in ever rating. mabey the movie Gung Ho was right.
 
That is a good point.

When you take a decade old American car and crank the bolts down properly, and get all the slack out of them yourself, they run great generally.
 
Analists are still saying Ford needs the alliance more than GM does...

Leftlanenews.com
Ford needs a partner like Renault just as badly as General Motors, says Bloomberg columnist Doron Levin. But involvement of the Ford family in the company could prevent that, he says. "Unfortunately for most shareholders, Ford is an unlikely candidate for a broad collaboration similar to the one GM is contemplating with Renault SA and Nissan Motor," writes Levin. "The reason: the Ford family's controlling interest in the No. 2 U.S. automaker." He says "Ford Motor's unusual capital structure has insulated the Ford family from the checks and balances on management found at GM and most other publicly traded companies." Levin is specifically critical of Bill Ford's leadership. "The family gambled on taking management in its own hands and lost," Levin says.
 
Ford wouldn't spring for it as readily as GM. The Ford family is stubborn as oxen, and are still ruthlessly pushing out the same crap that got them there in the first place (Five Hundred or Zephyr, anyone). The only real reason GM hasn't sprung for Ghosn is because Wagoner knows that if they do, he's as good as fired.
 
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