Gran Turismo 5 vs. Forza 3 - AI comparison Debunked

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You guys probably saw the Gran Turismo 5 vs. Forza 3 - AI comparison video that went around the internet for a while.

As someone that played both games (and Forza 3 for a loooong time), while the GT5 AI is far from perfect, that video always seemed very fishy to me, so I worked on it, and found some interesting facts. basically the video had been staged carefully in order to make GT5 lose the comparison automatically. This video is the result of that research.

Mind you, this video's aim is NOT to say that the GT5 AI is perfect, or better (or worse) than that of Forza 3. With the limited memory resources of a console of this generation and 12 cars on track, I doubt we'll ever have a perfect AI.

It simply shows that contrary to what "the internet" says, in most cases the GT5 AI will detect obstacles and will try to avoid them. Most of the times it'll manage, sometimes it'll fail (otherwise it wouldn't even be able to overtake). If you cherry-pick locations and situations, you'll be able to make the AI of every car simulator fail miserably, and that's exactly what the author of the original video did.

It's sad that people feel the need to rig a video to make a game look worse than it is.
 
Always 2 sides to every story, cool vid. However the one thing I hate about GT's AI is the extremely early and pointless braking. Other than that, doesn't bother me all that much, nothing is perfect.
 
You don't need videos to tell you the AI in Forza is better than GT......you just need to play both games, in exactly the same way you don't need anything to tell you GT5's handling model is better than Forza's ;)
 
Nice video thanks for the post, though I still like that Forza AI doesn't seem to try and drive *through* you quite as much when they fail to avoid. GT drivers seem to hit you, then burn rubber until eventually the obstacle (my car) is dislodged, while Forza drivers seem to stop, and then move around.
 
PzR Slim
You don't need videos to tell you the AI in Forza is better than GT......you just need to play both games, in exactly the same way you don't need anything to tell you GT5's handling model is better than Forza's ;)
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GT5's AI is actually better in some areas, and Forza's is better in others (even counting that GT5's controls 4 cars more, that's not a small factor, even just for the fact that it creates more traffic on the track).
This video simply doesn't aim to say which one is better. What is shows is just that it isn't true that the GT5 AI will robotically stick to the racing line no matter what, and won't detect obstacles.
They WILL detect obstacles and they will try to avoid them, sometimes they'll manage, sometims they'll fail. Exactly like in Forza 3 and in every other racing sim in the world.

freedomweasel
Nice video thanks for the post, though I still like that Forza AI doesn't seem to try and drive *through* you quite as much when they fail to avoid. GT drivers seem to hit you, then burn rubber until eventually the obstacle (my car) is dislodged, while Forza drivers seem to stop, and then move around.
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Eh, it happens even in Forza (maybe a lil less, but I'm not really there counting), if you mean that when they hit you they'll just continue to accelerate until you're out of the way, often staying there locked for several minutes. It happens even in the video. The red car continued to push into mine for quite a while.
 
Abriael
Eh, it happens even in Forza (maybe a lil less, but I'm not really there counting), if you mean that when they hit you they'll just continue to accelerate until you're out of the way, often staying there locked for several minutes. It happens even in the video. The red car continued to push into mine for quite a while.
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True, maybe it happens less, or I noticed it less because of the smoke in GT.

Either way, as the video showed, both AIs have ups and downs, and it's easy to show either in a good or bad light depending on how you choose your clips.
 
Abriael
GT5's AI is actually better in some areas, and Forza's is better in others (even counting that GT5's controls 4 cars more, that's not a small factor, even just for the fact that it creates more traffic on the track).
This video simply doesn't aim to say which one is better. What is shows is just that it isn't true that the GT5 AI will robotically stick to the racing line no matter what, and won't detect obstacles.
They WILL detect obstacles and they will try to avoid them, sometimes they'll manage, sometims they'll fail. Exactly like in Forza 3 and in every other racing sim in the world.



Eh, it happens even in Forza (maybe a lil less, but I'm not really there counting), if you mean that when they hit you they'll just continue to accelerate until you're out of the way, often staying there locked for several minutes. It happens even in the video. The red car continued to push into mine for quite a while.
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Like I said, I don't need you , a video or anybody else to tell me what I know through my own experiences. The AI in GT5 is one of the worst aspects of the game and most other games do it better.
 
Both games AI isn't perfect. GT5's AI brakes too early and sometimes ignores you and Forza 3's AI is far too aggressive and often wrecks the players car.
 
freedomweasel
Nice video thanks for the post, though I still like that Forza AI doesn't seem to try and drive *through* you quite as much when they fail to avoid. GT drivers seem to hit you, then burn rubber until eventually the obstacle (my car) is dislodged, while Forza drivers seem to stop, and then move around.
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Agreed. Also there are certain races where the AI seems exceptionally mindless in GT5.

I'm not a forza hater I own forza 2 & 3 and the MS force wheel... but I still say the physics are better in GT5. I played with all the aids off in Forza except the clutch. When I first started playing Prologue w/ the g27, I had trouble giving cars too much throttle out of corners - I would always fishtail. It wasn't until I started playing in the cockpit view that I figured out how to automatically counter-steer / ease on to the throttle. Having said that, I prefer the physics and the in car view in Prologue.
 
Abriael
It's sad that people feel the need to rig a video to make a game look worse than it is.
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The game does not need rigging. It is full of issues and flaws, so please don't take one isolated instance of AI as meaning the game is amazing. Take the Gran Turismo Rally stages with the staggered starts. I've had my car wander all over the road all on its own before getting to the start like. I've seen all cars at the start piled up on top of each other. I've even had one race (number 7 out of 8 on advanced) that you physically could not finish because it did not acknowledge that I had passed the finish line, so I had to quit and start over from race 1.

At times the game shines, but generally it is one huge inconsistent flawed mess.
 
Nice video although I recommend making a shorter edit to be distributed to sites like Autoblog or Gametrailer. Best example is at 3:04 when you can see all the different lines and braking points taken by the AIs.

Of course, there'll still be opponents of the game that will use the argument that this video is limited to showing AI cars going around stationary car. And if I have any complaint about GT5's AI which I think is a big improvement over GT4 and GT5P (from looking at videos, I've yet to play the game) is that the AI seems too easy to beat. But I'll find that out when I've actually bought and played the game.
 
PzR Slim
Like I said, I don't need you , a video or anybody else to tell me what I know through my own experiences. The AI in GT5 is one of the worst aspects of the game and most other games do it better.
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Awesome for you. My experiences differ :D

The GT5 AI isn't perfect in the least, but it's pretty much comparable to that of most racing sims I played. Everyone is entitled to an opinion though.
 
paskowitz
kotaku will eat this up.
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Doubt it, considering that they're the ones that contributed to propagate the original video the most. It'd be like saying "hey, we posted a completely faked video and we didn't care to check if it was true or not. We were wrong, but hey! here's a new one."

Mind you, I would love to be proven wrong, and I did send it to Plunkett, but I doubt it'll happen.

Greyum
At times the game shines, but generally it is one huge inconsistent flawed mess.
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Is it? Well, that's your opinion. Considering how throughly I'm enjoying my experience with it, I beg to differ. Last time I saw a game without flaws, it was Pong :D
 
How well the AI can get around a stationary vehicle really isn't terribly relevant. What's important is how well they RACE, can they overtake you cleanly and efficiently if they're faster than you, do they know when to concede when you're in position to avoid an accident, if one car is in the way can they get around cleanly and efficiently without losing much speed, are they able to operate in a pack without losing speed and without causing an accident.

Early videos of GT5 showed the AI actually had intelligence to some degree... however how well they get around a stationary obstruction is right down the bottom of the list when measuring how good the AI is in comparison to other games.
 
Thank you. Alleays watched those videos on YouTube AND VIDEO REVIEWS BY GAMETRAILERS/IGN etc and wanted to scream at them. If you put your car in a heavy braking zone or go into a corner (referring to gametrailers review) and dont turn in then even in real life someone is going to hit you.

Now I wait for real life videos of someone putting a car at the apex of the corkscrew at LagunaSeca with text that reads: AI, lol.
 
Great video, I shall use it to curb the "AI ONLY FOLLOW THE RACING LINE!!!" posts that pop up on another forum I visit daily.

Thanks!
 
Malefic
Now I wait for real life videos of someone putting a car at the apex of the corkscrew at LagunaSeca with text that reads: AI, lol.
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Ahah if someone did, there'd be casualties.

And crap, i mispelled "corkscrew" in the video...
 
PzR Slim
You don't need videos to tell you the AI in Forza is better than GT......you just need to play both games, in exactly the same way you don't need anything to tell you GT5's handling model is better than Forza's ;)
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Agreed. Let's not make excuses for the horrendous AI in Gran Turismo. It does many things better than any other racing series, AI is not one of them.
 
I don't think the knock on GT5's AI is simply obstacle avoidance. I think the issue is that the GT5 AI presents (as it always has) a robotic, lifeless field of competitors. There is both a science and art to great AI. The science involves mapping paths and routes, like creating a driving line aid. The art of AI involves incorporating errors, aggressiveness, defensiveness, tendencies . . . read human elements. Forza AI is hands-down superior in the art catagory. In fact, save some of the early brake points on select tracks in Forza (science issues), it is perhaps the best AI in a racing game to date.
 
slicecom
Agreed. Let's not make excuses for the horrendous AI in Gran Turismo. It does many things better than any other racing series, AI is not one of them.
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I would agree on PARTS on the AI engine (probably because it controls more cars too), but some I find actually better, like the changes of pace and the fact that with a comparable car the AI is actually competitive.

RWB1213
I don't think the knock on GT5's AI is simply obstacle avoidance. I think the issue is that the GT5 AI presents (as it always has) a robotic, lifeless field of competitors. There is both a science and art to great AI. The science involves mapping paths and routes, like creating a driving line aid. The art of AI involves incorporating errors, aggressiveness, defensiveness, tendencies . . . read human elements. Forza AI is hands-down superior in the art catagory. In fact, save some of the early brake points on select tracks in Forza (science issues), it is perhaps the best AI in a racing game to date.
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GT5's AI makes mistakes (quite a lot of them actually, they collide with each other, get into crashes, go into the sand quite a bit), they do become less and more aggressive dynamically depending on racing conditions and so forth. I did a lot of observation in the last few days (even because I have to deliver a review soon), and I did see quite a lot of things that many people missed.
 
as much as i like the respectful comparison of these games..

They are over a year apart and separated by 4-5 years of development...

I don't see why they compare..but the sad thing is they actually do
 
Guys look, we can put up a million videos (and to be honest the only one that would even be considered half way legit is both games on the same tracks which there are a few tracks they both have in common) showing what the A.I. in both games do and don't do but it basically comes down to this simple fact, when you cross the finish line how do you feel about the race you just had.
 
You don't need videos to tell you the AI in Forza is better than GT......you just need to play both games, in exactly the same way you don't need anything to tell you GT5's handling model is better than Forza's
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Agreed. Let's not make excuses for the horrendous AI in Gran Turismo. It does many things better than any other racing series, AI is not one of them.
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👍👍


Avoiding a stationary car is not sufficient to qualify as "responsive" AI - although it IS a relief that they don't just smash into it mindlessly as in GT4. All I can tell you is that, speaking as a non-fanboy, GT5 feels like it is worse than the AI in every other PS3 racing game I've played, (even though the AI in Shift & SCC could be pretty appalling).

The fact that much smaller games like SSV8 Next Challenge & Ferrari Challenge could have much better AI than GT5 is what is so disappointing. In my opinion, PD really needs a kick in the pants about this, NOT videos excusing or justifying their approach.
 

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