- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title
- Thread starter Vspectra
- 2,048 comments
- 154,951 views
- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
Most PC games are developed with the console versions in mind and design the game based on it, and then scale the resolution, draw distance, performance, etc. up or down based on the console version because the console version is actually what sells the most. That's why several games last gen looked incredible in their first PC reveal, only to then have drastic graphical downgrades years later during launch as they had to rewrite entire lighting models, or have to downgrade/re-author assets to work on the console version, all downgrades carried over to the final PC version.
Some games may be made on PC first, but then the console versions have drastic concessions made or just outright end with a crappy product. ACC on base PS4 runs at 30fps, Polyphony isn't going to target 30fps for base PS4 and have GT7 PS4 players compete at 30fps versus GT7 PS5 players on 60fps.
Cyberpunk 2077 also crashes constantly on last gen consoles, runs at 20fps, with absolutely hilarious looking bugs and LOD systems, major retailers ended up accepting returns of opened copies because of the backlash; Sony banned the game from being sold on psn after accepting refunds. And regarding WRC9/wreckfest, besides a resolution and framerate boost, those games absolutely look the same, with the same assets, between PS4 and PS5.
cyberpunk developed with a focus on higher-end PC hardware first, then tried to downport to weaker console hardware.
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- 1,776
- Florida, USA
I know cross-gen seems to be confirmed? (taken with a grain of salt), but has cross-play been guaranteed also or assumed in this discussion?. The biggest problem I see with cross-play will be with the physics of the PS5 & e-sports, assuming the that PD will try to implement more calculations per second and different tire models on the PS5, this would create a unbalance between the PS4 & PS5 players. The only way out of that would be to bring down PS5 physics to PS4 level.
Removing cross-play would give both platforms the best chance, each working within the hardware limitations of there platform, giving them there greatest potential, a GT7 Lite for the PS4 & GT7 Ultimate for the PS5, though I don't see e-sports being separate which is where everything falls apart.
Currently I see Sony with this move cannibalizing future sales of the PS5.
Creating two separate titles, with the PS5 version implementing the best features that the newer system can give, would give people on the old system some enticement to eventually move to the new platform.
Removing cross-play would give both platforms the best chance, each working within the hardware limitations of there platform, giving them there greatest potential, a GT7 Lite for the PS4 & GT7 Ultimate for the PS5, though I don't see e-sports being separate which is where everything falls apart.
Currently I see Sony with this move cannibalizing future sales of the PS5.
Creating two separate titles, with the PS5 version implementing the best features that the newer system can give, would give people on the old system some enticement to eventually move to the new platform.
- 2,089
- Prague
- karelpipa
You just dont know how to properly setup a car in GT1
Set your rear brakes to roughly 1/3 the force of front to stop doing that shooting left or right.
To stop wheelies, just soften your springs and also dampers.
- 170
- United Kingdom
Most PC games are developed with the console versions in mind and design the game based on it, and then scale the resolution, draw distance, performance, etc. up or down based on the console version because the console version is actually what sells the most. That's why several games last gen looked incredible in their first PC reveal, only to then have drastic graphical downgrades years later during launch as they had to rewrite entire lighting models, or have to downgrade/re-author assets to work on the console version, all downgrades carried over to the final PC version.
Some games may be made on PC first, but then the console versions have drastic concessions made or just outright end with a crappy product. ACC on base PS4 runs at 30fps, Polyphony isn't going to target 30fps for base PS4 and have GT7 PS4 players compete at 30fps versus GT7 PS5 players on 60fps.
Cyberpunk 2077 also crashes constantly on last gen consoles, runs at 20fps, with absolutely hilarious looking bugs and LOD systems, major retailers ended up accepting returns of opened copies because of the backlash; Sony banned the game from being sold on psn after accepting refunds. And regarding WRC9/wreckfest, besides a resolution and framerate boost, those games absolutely look the same, with the same assets, between PS4 and PS5.
cyberpunk developed with a focus on higher-end PC hardware first, then tried to downport to weaker console hardware.
Absolutely agree. Also particularly on the visuals of Wreckfest. As fun as the game is, the so-called “next gen” version still looks very dated and like a game made many years ago …which it is.
Really can’t believe they’re going to limit GT7s potential (especially when you look at the kinds of things they’re achieving with next gen exclusives like Rift Apart), just to try and guarantee extra sales from catering to the previous gens limitations.
How’s about they manufacture more PS5s and delay GT7 until they do see it as a viable option sales-wise by making it a next gen exclusive to help sell even more consoles. Makes no sense in my mind by downgrading the game to cater for 8+ year old tech, just because they’re worried about the profits. Where’s the incentive in buying a next-gen console, or what was the point in them even releasing a next-gen console for that matter if none of the games are going to be making use of the new hardware. By the time we start seeing more true next-gen exclusive games (in 2-3 years time?) the tech in the new consoles will already be rapidly ageing.
I don’t know, I’m just struggling to see their thinking with this. I can understand games that came out last year or early this year that were clearly built for last gen and giving them a minor uplift when running on the new consoles, but surely by late this year and next year we should be seeing more games made purely to tap into the power of the new hardware. Particularly when it comes to exclusives from Sony themselves with franchises as huge as Gran Turismo, Horizon and God of War.
- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
Regarding install base. The larger install base of an old-gen console also means nothing if it affects the final quality of the game, and the install base of the previous gen itself doesn't mean the game will be more successful, once again see GT6.
Ultimately GT7's success and sales will come down the final product that is released and whether or not the product will bring the hype and excitement of what most people have been wanting out of a new Gran Turismo. Return of dynamic time-of-day progression, dynamic weather, notable physics improvements, AI, new penalty system not tied to GTSport's poor AI, etc.
By 2016 ps4 had sold 53 million units. Uncharted 4 released in May 2016 and went on to sell 8 million copies by the end of 2016. GTSport came out in 2017 and didn't even reach 8 million players until two years later in 2019 after steep discounts, and this was just player counts, not necessarily sales number. Once info had came out on what GTSport offered it was obviously a rather boring product to most fans that ended up focusing entirely on a niche online mode with many missing features from previous games. Kaz even recently admitted sales in the beginning for the title were slow.
With 10 million views for GT7's reveal video on youtube, GT7 could have had the same excitement and hype that Gran Turismo 3 and Gran Turismo 5 saw on their respective "next-gen" platforms. That type of hype build-up for GT7 is getting pretty doubtful. Might even get another GTSport-style disappointment after the game features are revealed.
Let's assume they won't do cross-play and will treat the PS5 and PS4 version as separate titles. History has shown us that a 200-man dev team like Polyphony is incapable of making two large modern games at the same time, with completely different asset quality created and optimized for each platform, along with creating two different physics models that would be updated over the life span of the game. They would be essentially making and supporting two different games concurrently which would be insane and brutal for the dev team.
Ultimately GT7's success and sales will come down the final product that is released and whether or not the product will bring the hype and excitement of what most people have been wanting out of a new Gran Turismo. Return of dynamic time-of-day progression, dynamic weather, notable physics improvements, AI, new penalty system not tied to GTSport's poor AI, etc.
By 2016 ps4 had sold 53 million units. Uncharted 4 released in May 2016 and went on to sell 8 million copies by the end of 2016. GTSport came out in 2017 and didn't even reach 8 million players until two years later in 2019 after steep discounts, and this was just player counts, not necessarily sales number. Once info had came out on what GTSport offered it was obviously a rather boring product to most fans that ended up focusing entirely on a niche online mode with many missing features from previous games. Kaz even recently admitted sales in the beginning for the title were slow.
With 10 million views for GT7's reveal video on youtube, GT7 could have had the same excitement and hype that Gran Turismo 3 and Gran Turismo 5 saw on their respective "next-gen" platforms. That type of hype build-up for GT7 is getting pretty doubtful. Might even get another GTSport-style disappointment after the game features are revealed.
Let's assume they won't do cross-play and will treat the PS5 and PS4 version as separate titles. History has shown us that a 200-man dev team like Polyphony is incapable of making two large modern games at the same time, with completely different asset quality created and optimized for each platform, along with creating two different physics models that would be updated over the life span of the game. They would be essentially making and supporting two different games concurrently which would be insane and brutal for the dev team.
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- 29,910
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
It's unlikely we'll see much, if any difference beyond graphical improvements between a PS4 version of GT7 and the PS5 version. It's possible the phyiscs engine on the PS5 version will do more calcualtions per second, but it's unlikely to have more variables being calcaulted than the PS4 version. Same goes for the dynamic time of day, there is very little chance we will see this in one version and not the other, not only would that require both games to use completley different lighting techniques but it creates a disparity of functionality between them and the changes would .
It's not the same as enabling 4xAA on a high end PC and someone else having that disabled, as this is just a graphical improvement, ultimately if the game has dynamic time of day and shadows it will have that with 4xAA enabled or not, it's a core funciton of the game.
Plus, like you pretty much said, if there is any intention to have the eSports qualifying running in tadem for a while between the two versions we might not even see the physics doing more calcualtions per second in the PS5 version.
Unfortuantely there isn't a single realistic scenario where GT7 releases on PS4 in which the PS5 version doesn't suffer in some way as a result.
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- 326
- Greece
It's disappointing because Sony was confident the game was going to come out in 2021 but then a few weeks later something magical happened that caused them to delay it to 2022. According to this article the decision to make GT7 a cross gen game was made very recently.
https://www.videogameschronicle.com...n-u-turn-is-disappointing-for-ps5s-potential/
"Gran Turismo 7, after all, was outright advertised as a PS5 exclusive in December, although to be fair to Sony, I understand the decision to release a PS4 version was made only fairly recently. For Horizon Forbidden West and God of War, however, these games were always intended to release as cross-gen titles, I was told, but Sony did not mention the last-gen console during the announcement of either title."
https://www.videogameschronicle.com...n-u-turn-is-disappointing-for-ps5s-potential/
"Gran Turismo 7, after all, was outright advertised as a PS5 exclusive in December, although to be fair to Sony, I understand the decision to release a PS4 version was made only fairly recently. For Horizon Forbidden West and God of War, however, these games were always intended to release as cross-gen titles, I was told, but Sony did not mention the last-gen console during the announcement of either title."
- 326
- Greece
Maybe Sony chose to make GT7 cross-gen because it probably cost a lot of money to develop and they thought they wouldn't be able to make a profit by only releasing it on the PS5.
According to this old article :https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.en...smo-5-cost-roughly-60-million-to-develop.html GT5 cost more than $60,000,000 to develop. Although that could be the case because according to Kaz, developing GT5 for the PS3 was a nightmare.
However, according to Jim Ryan games have gotten more expensive to make because of the realistic graphics and physics that weren't possible before.
According to this old article :https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.en...smo-5-cost-roughly-60-million-to-develop.html GT5 cost more than $60,000,000 to develop. Although that could be the case because according to Kaz, developing GT5 for the PS3 was a nightmare.
However, according to Jim Ryan games have gotten more expensive to make because of the realistic graphics and physics that weren't possible before.
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- 34,597
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
- 242
- Brazil
I very much doubt that Sony and their first party studios are willing to release a game for their own system in the same deplorable state as Cyberpunk 2077.
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- 585
- Latvia
- GreatBee_
The architecture is the same in GT Sport and GT7. So it means, that in ps5 game will be more visually stunning than on ps4. I have no doubt, that they are putting all efforts for next gen. We will se the game on ps4 and ps5, but you eventually will see the big difference. I have no worries to put the game in both consoles. You will see.
- 125
- Denmark
Well i hoped that within a year of PS5 release we would forget about slow Jaguar CPU and HDD but unfortunatley it seems it will ruin games for next 1-2 years.
If Project Cars 2 has better physics and ffb than GT sport i don't see reason why PS4 version of GT 7 wouldn't have it.
But i doubt we would have better physics/tyre model. After all, they cater to controller users.
Which is really crap because i know PSVR 2 will be great on GT7, i just wish it would have better tyre physics and ffb feel.
If Project Cars 2 has better physics and ffb than GT sport i don't see reason why PS4 version of GT 7 wouldn't have it.
But i doubt we would have better physics/tyre model. After all, they cater to controller users.
Which is really crap because i know PSVR 2 will be great on GT7, i just wish it would have better tyre physics and ffb feel.
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- 390
- Germany
In 98% of cross gen games in history this was a given.
@Famine
I mistaken the ball physics visual changed as physic changes. For all the changes you can go here:
https://www.ea.com/games/fifa/fifa-21/news/fifa-21-next-level-deep-dive?setLocale=en-us
- 390
- Germany
It's not gospel when PS studios outright say it. Hulst has more to say and knows more about PS Studios than Kaz.
He is the head of the first party organisation. He is the guy that gives GT7 the budget, he is the guy that greenlight GT7 and he is the guy that could cancel GT7. He is not some random employee.
I know... I know... Some people read the sentence differently. We have a outlet getting information from Sony PR that confirmed to them it's cross gen. We know the creator of GoW tweeted about PS4 version of their game and confirmed it. Shall we believe it's a coincidence GoW, Horizon - two cross gen games - are listed as examples in the same sentence than GT7? I'd say nope. But we don't need to stop here. In the podcast Hulst didn't say the last part of the sentence after the examples iirc.
Additionally we got this:
To sum it up, I wouldn't bet anything for GT7 being next gen exclusive. There is to much evidence and the counter is just "grammar confusion".
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- 2,181
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
And its this reason that I think Dynamic weather/TOD might have not ever been in the cards for the Gran Turismo Franchise. As much as a lot of us hardcore race fans would want it, this would make GT more of a proper sim......which in turn would make it be less of a sim-cade. And I'm not sure PD or Sony want that.
That is unless they gave us the option to run campaign and certain daily races in more of the old "simulation mode".
- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
As written. And spoken.
"Where it makes sense to [do a thing] - [examples of where it makes sense] - we'll continue looking at [doing the thing]"
This outlet either got a different confirmation from PlayStation PR than we did (which would be a problem), or it got the same one we did...
... and ours literally quoted the same line from the Hulst interview back at us.
Yeah, no. The official statement from Santa Monica only confirmed the delay:
The NSFW Tweet from Cory Barlog - in response to a member of his team getting death and rape threats (hey, good going again there, gamers) - which I've quoted rather than embedded below, mentioned PS4 but also neither confirms nor denies the PS4 version:
He also neither confirms nor denies it in a Tweet in response to someone talking about PS2/3 GOW and PS4/5 GOW2, and doesn't address the fact that the guy called it GOW Ragnarok when no name has been announced yet:
Since he didn't correct it, does that confirm the name as well as the PS4 version?
For some reason, a lot of people who should be able to say definitively that GT7 or GOW2 are cross-gen PS4/PS5 titles or are not cross-gen PS4/PS5 titles are being extremely opaque and only saying things that are open to interpretation.
And that's the truly weird thing here: nobody is saying, clearly, "Yes, GT7 will be available on PS4" or "No, GOW2 will not be available on PS4". There is open confusion, and it is not being addressed - which leaves its own questions on the table, such as "Did anyone even know Hulst was going to say this?" and "How did this get as far as the PS Blog without anyone thinking '****, this will make waves, best get some statements sorted'?".
It is, in short, a PR catastrophe right now. I'd assume Sony/PlayStation knows what's going on, but this is not being related to the public - nobody else knows anything, the media is full of wildly conflicting variants, and the general game- and console-buying public has no idea what is going on. Hopefully the Summer Game Fest event on June 10 will answer some questions, but it's going to be a long, long, long old week unless Sony/PlayStation gets out in front of this right now.
The official GT7 landing page on the official PlayStation site, two full days after the fact, still only says PS5:
https://www.playstation.com/en-gb/games/gran-turismo-7/
- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
But dynamic time and weather doesn't make a game a proper sim, even arcade racers have dynamic time and weather (DriveClub, Forza Horizon series, Dirt 5, etc). Kaz also has never said anything about wanting to make sim-cades. If anything he's constantly been talking about trying to make a proper sim and achieve even more realism. Whether or not they have achieved that is a different matter.
"Yamauchi: The GT Academy project was launched in 2008, which was about 10 years after the appearance of the first Gran Turismo in 1997.
Initially in 2008, I had a strong desire to “prove that Gran Turismo is a proper simulator.” This was because, although I felt that Gran Turismo “will positively contribute to the acquisition and enhancement of driving skills” and “can be utilized as a driving simulator of an actual car,” there was a strong feeling in public opinion that “after all, it’s merely a video game.” This is why I wanted to verify my thoughts."
Last year Kaz talked about areas where they want to improve, and that is in changing surface conditions.Initially in 2008, I had a strong desire to “prove that Gran Turismo is a proper simulator.” This was because, although I felt that Gran Turismo “will positively contribute to the acquisition and enhancement of driving skills” and “can be utilized as a driving simulator of an actual car,” there was a strong feeling in public opinion that “after all, it’s merely a video game.” This is why I wanted to verify my thoughts."
"Kaz: That said, real life is a little bit more complex than a video game. For example with Nurburgring, any time you go there the track conditions are going to be different. You’ll have to adjust and adapt for this every time you visit it.
When you consider the skill you need to drive a car very fast is something you can gain in the game, but there’s a lot of risk involved in driving a car on a race track like that. When you consider that, training in GT is a lot more effective and safer.
For the parts of the experience that are still lacking, with the surface conditions being different every time – and how you feel those change through your tyres – I think that’s something we need to work on to make it more realistic in the game."
When you consider the skill you need to drive a car very fast is something you can gain in the game, but there’s a lot of risk involved in driving a car on a race track like that. When you consider that, training in GT is a lot more effective and safer.
For the parts of the experience that are still lacking, with the surface conditions being different every time – and how you feel those change through your tyres – I think that’s something we need to work on to make it more realistic in the game."
Plus PD had already included dynamic time of day and weather in GT5 and 6, though at the cost of significant fps drops. It was still amazing regardless. And the GT7 trailer showed a timelapse of procedurally generated volumetric clouds which hinted at dynamic weather.
So are we going back to static weather now, with static skyboxes made of photographs like in GTSport? There's no way those volumetric clouds are going to be cheap to render at 60fps on PS4 no matter how much you "downgrade" them. Who knows, but considering PD never announced what gameplay features GT7 would have, they could easily backtrack on this little snippet in the trailer as if it was never shown.
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- 11,307
- Marin County
Another conflict I noticed, albeit a minor one, with parity between a theoretical PS4 version of the game and the full PS5 version of the game is the dual sense controller. Yes, E-Sports are probably going to be done with a wheel (I assume so anyways, I really know nothing about it) but they previously stated they were planning to use the haptic triggers to provide proper ABS feedback. Again, this is a minor thing, but theoretically that could allow PS5 players to brake more effectively if all players are using ABS...it's probably a tangible advantage.
I feel like there are just too many obstacles to creating parity between PS5 and PS4 versions of the game, based on what has been shown and described so far, if that is indeed what ends up happening. I'd guess that the PS4 version will have its own esports ecosystem, maybe GT7 Standard?
I feel like there are just too many obstacles to creating parity between PS5 and PS4 versions of the game, based on what has been shown and described so far, if that is indeed what ends up happening. I'd guess that the PS4 version will have its own esports ecosystem, maybe GT7 Standard?
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- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
- 8,698
I personally don't see the dynamic time of day and weather a real deal breaker for PS4.
The stuff that affects the mechanics of the game is trivial and would not pose any real challenge to either hardware generation. The tricky part is the graphical representation.
And since that's exactly what the major differences are for cross-generation games so far, it's business as normal; no spanner in the works, no end of days, no real drama (sorry).
Just don't expect it to look and / or perform all that well on PS4, is all I will say.
The stuff that affects the mechanics of the game is trivial and would not pose any real challenge to either hardware generation. The tricky part is the graphical representation.
And since that's exactly what the major differences are for cross-generation games so far, it's business as normal; no spanner in the works, no end of days, no real drama (sorry).
Just don't expect it to look and / or perform all that well on PS4, is all I will say.
At least as far as the esport stuff itself is concerned, sure...
- 48,719
- Australia
It's definitely not a deal breaker. The track surface PD have, can still be utilised. Assetto Corsa doesn't have variable weather, but the track surface can be adjusted.
Track surface data, a proper car suspension program and improved tyre model, would wholeheartedly change the physics.
I guess biggest question would be, what circuits implement wet surfaces. Will every circuit have the option for wet surfaces? Will snow conditions be optional or again left out?
- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
We know PD cut dynamic conditions from GTS in favour of the baked lighting because it couldn't run the environmental lighting model at 60fps. That leaves three options for GT7 PS4:
* It's included, but looks worse than GTS on PS4, runs at 30fps
* They found a way since 2017 to make it work on PS4 at 60fps
* It's cut
The middle option is always a possibility, but I'd suggest that it's remote and if it happens expect your PS4 fan to collapse into a singularity and start sucking in the universe. The first option flies in the face of everything we know and expect from Gran Turismo; a GT game that looks worse than its predecessor?
That leaves option C, and I don't like that at all.
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