Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title
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You speak as if you were a game developer yourself and a better one than any of the PD staff. You may get off your high horse.
If it runs on the PS4 it won't be a PS5 game, but rather a PS4 "port" of a PS5 game, I supposed you could figure that out. Also yes there will be serious compromises, in terms of graphics. Told it aswell.
Witcher 3 for example, on PS4 and or high end PC with max settings, the difference is enormous... But both very playable and enjoyable. And the problem with Cyberpunk is basically that they rushed the release too early considering the development stage. Business decision, not developer decision.
Developing multi-platform apps or games with massive hardware differences is not exactly something new
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- JDA1982
You know what graphics push? The GPU. The CPU is somewhat for graphics, but also for everything else. If you don't think the Jaguar process is the PS3 would bottlneck those things in GT7 as opposed to the Zen 2 in the PS5 then you are very wrong I'm afraid. Having actually coded a game (nothing as complex as Gran Turismo by any means, not close) I at least know a bit about what limits you run into.
Everything from the GPU, CPU, RAM and thermal capabilities of the console would become an issue if you tried to run a PS5 game on the PS4. The graphics can be scaled down by using lower resolutions etc. But you can't easilly scale down other things.
Therefore games designed with cross-gen in mind are developed with the older hardware as hte standard and effectively upgraded for the more powerful system. You cannot easilly create a game where the minimum requirement is a more powerful system and then downgrade it to an older one, it's not just graphics.
They chose not to because it wouldn't work with the direciton that they went in. You could not simply add dynamic weather and time of day into GT Sport and get the same experience.
They can maybe be slightly better, but not a lot better. You ceratinly couldn't make big improvements in one area without sacrficing something else. And by better I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about calcaulations per second and complexity. You can have a very demanding physics engine that produces arcade gameplay, it's about the choices made.
The PS3 categorically could not run GT Sport with reduced graphics, it's not possible becuase of what it going on under the hood.
That creates a lower load in some areas, but not all, to be clear, you can create a cross-gen game that runs smooth on both consoles and looks better on the PS5 but otherwise has the same features as each other, but you cannot create a game that takes full advantage of the more powerful system and run on the weaker one. It's is a factual impossability if the PS5 is the standard then nothing below that will work.
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I think FM8 is a particularly useful example. T10 has upgraded the resolution of the tire model from 60hz to 360hz (not to mention increased it's fidelity) because of the new console's huge CPU upgrade. The XBO simply is not powerful enough (probably) to handle this core physics upgrade. If GT7 was planning any CPU intensive upgrades, the PS4 may not be able to handle it. This is not a matter of simply reducing screen resolution or frame rate, it's a more fundamental thing. That leaves two possibilities - either the PS4 version is heavily simplified from a core architecture perspective (extremely unlikely, it would be two games at that point) or the PS5 version is held to some lower performance bar to accommodate the less powerful system's limitations. I don't know that GT7 was going to be going over and above GT Sport's physics engine (is it?), but the PS5 would certainly allow it to.
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dylansan
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You seem to believe Gran Turismo is like an hyper complex type of game like a sandbox with tons of elements interacting at the same time. It isn't. There are only cars moving around a very static scenery. Sometimes many cars can be bunched up yes, but you can see far more complexity in other types of games if you look around. And handing and managing car physics... well, overall not the most demading thing ever in gaming, is it?
They could have put TOD and dynamic weather in GT Sport but that would have meant an extra compromise in graphis quality and they took the decision to have more graphics quality over having the other things, that's about it. I suppose after being behind the competition in GT6 they wanted to pound the table or something on that area.
Graphics aside, I genuinely don't see any reason to think the PS4 won't handle what the PS5 does in terms of physics, AI and calculations you mention
We always tend to think that when a next gen console comes out, the previous one automatically becomes useless crap, and it is WRONG. PS4 is still a capable machine, no matter what some "elitists" say.
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dylansan
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I haven't been following GT7's development for very long, but what are the odds that it was originally planned to be a PS4 title, with GT Sport acting as a sort of prologue? Then they changed their minds and decided to take advantage of the PS5?For almost an entire year
No idea if that makes any sort of sense, but I'm sure someone with more context can tell me if it's silly. It certainly sounds unlikely to me.
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As spoken by someone ignorant of what is involved. The sheer volume of calculations per second in GT Sport is not possible in GT5 or 6 or on PS3 nor is the number of cars on track at one etc.
I don't want to simplyfy this just to physics, it's a combination of everything, AI, lighting, number of cars on track, the design of the track environments themselves. You might be able to get away with one or two specific things jumping from PS5 to PS4 but not all.
They could have put dynamic time of day into GT Sport yes, but they pre-baked the lighting beucase they didn't want the game to run poorly and they prioritised graphical fidenlity and resolution. No one is saying otherwise, but it is not just about graphics it's about everything. If they still can't create the same fidelity as in GT Sport with dynamic time of day while developing GT7 then it won't be in either version of the game even if it's more than possible in the PS5 version at the fidelity they choose, because the PS4 is the baromoter for what they include not the PS5.
Because you are ignorant of what is involved, and I'm not being rude here, most people don't have a cluje beyond graphics either, that puts you right in the majority. But we're talking about what GT7 can and should be if it were a PS5 only title, not what you can do to make it cross-gen. There will absolutely be design choices made that limit the PS5 version because it is cross-gen.
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When it’s Right, what Kaz Said, That the developing of Next GT Game, began shortly after developing of GT Sport, it makes for me sense and is the nearest, that the base definitely was PS4 generation and so GT Sport. I imagine, as more as the development get further to PS5 release, there came the plan to don’t release it still „alone“ on PS4 base and use the new PS5 development kit to bring it on the new console, too. And do the marketing for PS5 console, because of gran Turismo is a flagship game. They wanted to make know us everything is now full focused on new generation and now thruth for thruth come out to the light as nearer we come to game releases..
My thinking about it.
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We are not talking about PS3/GT5/GT6 though so thats not relevant.
What makes you think GT7 will have so many more things "involved" compared to GT Sport? And what will be those things? I mean anything that is not about graphics, but calculations, and so on.
You dont know it because you don't know much details about GT7 so you are also ignorant aswell, unless you have a crystal ball
Maybe GT7 will surprise you in the sense that it will be just an improved GT Sport with a lot more focus on single player career mode and without any major changes in actual gameplay nor any big changes on physics but only slight improvements... So if hypotetically GT7 is going to be similar to GTS in physics, gameplay and AI, then there's no reason the PS4 would not handle it.
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If we look, GT developing probably started at beginning of 2018. That’s for me an absolutely indicator that it’s not a next gen game. It’s to late in the lifecycle of PS4 for a PS4 only game and to early in the PS5 lifecycle which wasn’t on market there of course, to be a full next gen game. Cross gen there Perfect Matches for me.
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It backs up my point, the differences between consoles meant newer processes, game engines and game design were not possible on the older machines. That newer more powerful computer technology is capable of more than older technology beyond just graphics has not suddenly stopped at the PS4.
If it's cross-gen I don't think it will have anything beyond a graphic upgrade on PS5, which is the entire problem. If it were PS5 only I'd expect dynamic weather, time of day, AI and physcics that think and react far faster than possible on PS5 and more complex trackside scenery/level design.
You are funny, you have clearly missed my entire point based on your final comment below.
Yes, if that is all GT7 is then that is the problem, that is not GT7 taking full advantage of the PS5. This is worst case scenario, I wanted to see a proper upgrade over GT Sport, not GT Sport in drag which is what we will most likely end up with.
Since you clearly can't understnad what I'm saying I'll leave this here for the benefit of the thread and further discussion.
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So, what I’ve learned from this thread can be summed up as follows,
It’s amazing how good Gt sport looks on the underpowered PS4
It’s even more amazing that the likes of ACC can even run on a PS4
If GT7 does indeed come out on PS4, it’s likely that with the increased overhead of ps5 that it will look and run amazingly well on the newer machine, albeit not having certain features due to having the PS4 as the minimum spec.
Does this sound about right?
Edit
I do get however that for ps5 users they’ll be looking at a lesser game if cross gen.
It’s amazing how good Gt sport looks on the underpowered PS4
It’s even more amazing that the likes of ACC can even run on a PS4
If GT7 does indeed come out on PS4, it’s likely that with the increased overhead of ps5 that it will look and run amazingly well on the newer machine, albeit not having certain features due to having the PS4 as the minimum spec.
Does this sound about right?
Edit
I do get however that for ps5 users they’ll be looking at a lesser game if cross gen.
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I fully understand what you're saying, you think the PS4 is gonna be too weak for GT7 because you believe GT7 will be like... 10 times better than GT Sport, and I dont think so and I disagree. For a start, all GT Sport cars should be "recycled" and dropped in to GT7 right away without even toching them in the slightest. Cars will very likely remain the same base quality from what we've seen in trailers. Not a bad thing, GT Sport cars have excellent quality.
But hey, no problem, we will see. That they can get it done, doesn't mean the results will be pretty. As I said, without having a crystal ball, I would not recommend getting the PS4 version due to many graphics compromises. I certainly won't.
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Whatever you say Mr. "A PC from 2013 can run games from 2021 fine because architecture"
The Witcher 3 came out in 2015. I suspect designing games with the PS5 hardware level in mind wasn't much of a consideration.
Cyberpunk was never going to run well on the PS4/Xbone. It might have not been the disaster it was, but the hardware simply is not capable of what the game is asking for. It's a miracle it is only as bad as it ended up being; when significantly more powerful contemporary PC hardware can't do it much better.
And unless there are multiple versions of the game they are always limited by the abilities of lowest spec machine. It's one of the reasons why when consoles aren't popular and are also weaker or hard to develop for publishers just ignore them so as to not make the other versions worse.
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Witcher 3 was developed with a high end PC in mind for max settings, actually doesn't seem far off the level of PS5 power or so... And the same game runs well on PS4 and even the Nintendo Switch. It's about optimization, and of course general resolution decrease.
If that can be done for other games like Witcher 3 I can also be done for GT, unless they implement some unique feature for the PS5 that the PS4 won't have, but, as said above, it's not very likely, with the decision to make it multi-generation, it's likely that GT7 will be an improved version of GT Sport with a bit more refined physics, more cars and tracks and better career mode, and no crazy change or "revolution" at all.
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VR is currently a niche, but it's absolutely worth it. The immersion of sitting in a car is a completely new experience. Without PSVR, I wouldn't have bought a PS4.
Marketing Technically, however, Gran Turismo Sport in VR was a disaster. The game was long marketed as fully playable and even advertised with PSVR bundles. In the end, only a sparse mode with a CPU opponent remained due to the PS4's low hardware performance. So all we got was a demo. To be fair, at least the new cars via new Patches are all playable in VR too. Personally, I'm already very excited about the new PSVR2 headset and hope for full support in Gran Turismo 7. If there was no new VR set planned then my interest in Gran Turismo 7 would also be very flattened.
I really hope that the Gross Gen support doesn't lead to drastic compromises.
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I posted months ago:
GT7 is a PS4 game SIX years in the making
The new 2020 additions to the track database with static time and weather only further confirms this. Maybe Polyphony will throw PS5 owners a bone and enable the dynamic stuff? Incompatible game parameters during cross online play can easily be taken care of with auto filtering.
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Or a reason to buy it.
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Witcher 3 was not developed with high-end PC in mind for max settings. The differences between Witcher 3 PC maxed out vs. ps4 actually aren't enormous, and definitely not generational enormous. The overall lighting and shading model are the same, the actual assets, gameplay, and game world are the same, the biggest differences are just in image resolution and draw distance for shadows and asset models. Most of these differences would go unnoticeable unless looked at a side-by-side. It was the bare minimum of what you would expect out of a PC version of the game.
The switch port was also mostly developed by an entirely different developer, released 4 years after the PS4/PC platforms. They had time to figure out how to port an already finished game game by reworking the entire engine and making major concessions. How are we expecting Polyphony to release two different versions of GT7 at the same time, with different asset models and gameplay features? It's not at all comparable. The performance difference between a Switch and base Xbox One/PS4 is also smaller than the hardware delta between a PS4 and PS5.
Witcher 3 PC Ultra settings vs. PS4.
PC max settings
PS4
PC max settings
PS4
The final game was actually notably downgraded from its initial PC reveal, the devs admitted they changed the rendering system and rewrote the lighting model, all of which affected the final PC version because it also needed to run on consoles. Pretty easy to tell which is the final game vs. initial PC target.
Cyberpunk wasn't "rushed." It was in development for EIGHT years and was first announced in 2012. They simply made the mistake of designing the game for higher-end hardware instead of re-scoping the game & graphics to design it around last gen consoles like they had done for Witcher 3. The devs even admitted in an investor Q&A that they had put too much focus looking at next-gen/PC performance and then went "oh crap we also need to release on last-gen, guess we'll just try to band-aid fix it with post-launch patches", which obviously wouldn't work out. 8 months after release and the game is still banned from being sold on PSN.
When asked if the developer underestimated the performance of the current-gen version Michał Nowakowski, vice president of business management, stated the reason being was the team was “looking at the next-gen and PC performance, rather than the current-gen” and “definitely did not spend enough time looking at that”.
Nowakowski also added that both Microsoft and Sony were more than likely hoping the game would receive a patch at launch after going through both companies certification process:
“If I can say anything it’s that I can only assume that yes, they were counting that we were going to fix the things upon the release and that obviously did not come together exactly as we had planned.”
Nowakowski also added that both Microsoft and Sony were more than likely hoping the game would receive a patch at launch after going through both companies certification process:
“If I can say anything it’s that I can only assume that yes, they were counting that we were going to fix the things upon the release and that obviously did not come together exactly as we had planned.”
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The two versions of the game will be titled as follows: GT7 Poverty Spec and GT7 Premium Spec.
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Honestly I would be surprised if it took 4 years to just simply make slight changes to the physics and gameplay along with a new single-player career mode. Regardless of if its coming to PS4 or not, they without a doubt put in a lot of time upgrading the physics engine and tire models etc. I believe even going from 5 to 6 there was decent improvement.
I'm pretty sure I'm correct in saying that Physics and AI are heavily reliant on the CPU, in which case no, simply lowering graphics settings wouldn't be enough for something designed for the PS5 to run well on the PS4.
Edit: Actually in fact, Rich touches on this exact point at around 6:39 in that Digital Foundry video BigSarj linked above. GPU stuff can scale, CPU stuff cant, especially considering how weak the PS4 CPU is.
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Yeah, I'm trying to remain optimistic that if there is crossplay, the physics will have improved slightly and that, to me, is likely good enough to continue to have fun online. But we can all agree that we want more. A better AI and actual rain physics that demand more of the driver than just driving slowly, for example.
Another thing; if GT7 is indeed a PS4 game, and Sony does plan on bringing it to PC at some point down the road, as they have been doing with some of their other titles, who is going to buy it?
A proper 'next gen' GT7 on PC could have competed a little with iRacing due to the lower cost of entry and bang for buck due to the amount of content there is. I don't see that happening anymore.
Another thing; if GT7 is indeed a PS4 game, and Sony does plan on bringing it to PC at some point down the road, as they have been doing with some of their other titles, who is going to buy it?
A proper 'next gen' GT7 on PC could have competed a little with iRacing due to the lower cost of entry and bang for buck due to the amount of content there is. I don't see that happening anymore.
