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- Neomone
Maybe, but they 100% don't use that terminology. Anyone who played the PS3 era games will immediately be put off of both of them.
Gran Turismo 7: Latest news and discussion thread
- Thread starter sems4arsenal
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This. And as long as they advertise both games as separate product, I don't think there will be any issue.
The way I see it, the PS4 version will probably be released down the road. Do people actually think they can make a last gen version in such short period of time?
"But they can easily scale back the graphics" let's be honest here, optimization on console takes a lot of time and this is PD we're talking about.
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- eran0004
I don’t think they have ever released a game-changing update. Usually it’s just small tweaks, and those would be model-specific anyways because a flaw that exists in one aero model (for example) might not be present in the other.
I don’t think player base segregation is an issue, especially not if it’s up to the players do decide if they want to run a PS4-compatible session or not.
If the decision to make the game cross platform came late in the process you’d need additional development time regardless of what strategy you choose with respect to differences between the two platforms. In fact, if the decision came late, chances are they’ve already developed some PS5-specific bells and whistles which makes it more likely that they would look for a way to keep them. If the game had been planned to be cross platform from the start then it makes sense to only (or mostly) develop features that both consoles can handle.
Hiding and disabling options in a game is very easy to do, it’s literally just the flip of a switch.
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- JDA1982
@eran0004 no it’s not hard to do, but there is a reason or reasons why games are not releasing cross-gen with different feature sets.
I think everyone who expects GT7 on PS5 to have added game features over the PS4 version are living in the clouds. You’re setting yourselves up for disappointment.
Think path of least resistance, and you’ll come to the most likely outcome.
I think everyone who expects GT7 on PS5 to have added game features over the PS4 version are living in the clouds. You’re setting yourselves up for disappointment.
Think path of least resistance, and you’ll come to the most likely outcome.
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The Premium cars increase from GT5 to GT6 was more than 162 though iirc, and it was in PS3 era with the architecture or such.
I'd want for Circuit Experience to be integrated as the game's (like campaign or online mode's) Practice Mode, but it can still be accessed on its own still like GTS. And by that I would want for Circuit Experience to allow any cars to be used there.
And this is the part that I think they won't be able to do, the clock for Gold, Silver, and Bronze each is determined by the performance of the car you use. Depending on the company/technology's capabilities:
- For easier task (but more flawed), the clock is determined on the car's PP.
- And for harder task, each of the car's stat takes part in determining the clock (top speed, acceleration, cornering, etc.), and the track itself will also determine which stat is the best of that track (like top speed for tracks with more straight lines, and thus top speed of that car influences more of the clock).
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
What would that be changing? Regardless of it originally being an exclusive or not, if that was ever the case, I doubt that’s going to make it play out any different than any game releasing as a cross gen game. Every single cross gen game coming out is playing down the exact same route, and it looks like that’s going to be, at least, all through 2022. It’s highly doubtful that we’ll see this play out different, if it is indeed cross gen.
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- eran0004
The difference is that when you know from the start that the game will be cross gen, you can plan for it and make sure to develop features that will work on both consoles (that's the most efficient approach).
When you start out thinking that it will be a PS5 exclusive, you may end up with features that won't work on the PS4 and if you've been developing for x number of years you might not be so eager to just throw that away when at a later stage in the process it's decided that the game will be cross gen.
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- JDA1982
Again, I dont see anything here but fanciful expectations. We don't know for a fact which games started out as PS5 exclusives or not. What I can tell you, is starting out high and working backwards is not the way to program a game. That's where CDPR went majorly wrong with Cyberpunk 2077. They developed it for the current gen and high end PC's first and then tried to make it work on the last gen consoles. That turned out fab for them didn't it.
But even that game had feature parity across console generations. One played terrible but the features were the same.
Ultimately you cannot dispute the fact that it is both easier and more cost effective to make the same game on both generations and in addition it's what everyone is doing. Legal reasosn, costs involved, player segregation etc. Are all reasons to avoid creating two different games for each console generation.
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- eran0004
A possibility is not the same thing as an expectation. The fact that it’s possible for England to win the World Cup in football doesn’t by default make it the expected outcome.
This is actually an argument for why the features should be different between the two versions of the game.
Can you elaborate on those reasons please?. What are the legal reasons for not having additional options for the PS5? Why would it lead to additional costs? How would an option that can be disabled for any situation where cross play is required lead to player segregation?
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If the features included are different from what is featured in the PS4 version of the game and directly affect gameplay, one could easily say that the PS4 and PS5 versions of the game are two completely different games.
Games like FIFA manage to get around this with their “Legacy Edition” games, which clearly state on the box art that the changes from the last game are minimal - though I don’t think this would be cost effective for a game like GT
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- JDA1982
True, a possability isn't the same as expectation, but what's reasonably possible isn't the same as what's possible either. It's possible that I will be a billionaire within the next week, there are many ways it could happen. But is it reasonable? No. If all you're arguing is that it's possible, no one is disputing that. I could be a billionaire next week. But don't expect it to happen.
And yet feature parity has remained despite all of the problems the game has had on the outgoing consoles.
Some of the added cost is pretty obvious, if you're creating games with different feature sets you not only spend more time (time = money) differentiating the titles (and before anyone suggests, no it's not as simple as turning a feature on or off in the code, dynamic or baked in lighting for example is a much bigger change than that).
Sticking with cost, advertising, you would have to make it pretty clear that the games have different features. Advertising standards would be all over this.
Also costs, legal costs and refunds, you could expect a percentage of gamers expecting features included in the PS5 version but not PS4 version to request refunds on realising the game they have bought is not the same.
Legal reasons is speculation, however we can take from the fact that no other deveoper is doing what you suggest that there are reasons behind that. It's either a requirement from the console manufacturers to ensure parity in cross-gen games and/or legal issues. From my experience I can see plenty of legal problems that would have to be nagivated in the UK alone to distribute two products with different features under the same name. Bear in mind, the legal loopholes would vary from region to region and the game would be selling globally. It's a minefield that would cost a lot to navigate in order to mitigate risk.
Sure you could give them different names as per FIFA which does it with their "Legacy Edition" games, but again see cost, these games require advertising. You'd have to be pretty sure you'd sell enough PS4 copies to not just recoup those advertising costs, but not just that, you'd have to come to some kind of conclusion that doing it this way would leave you with more net profit than taking the less risky, easier and more cost effective option of simply having feature parity between the games.
Would seperating the games this way ensure that a PS4 version becomes redundant? We already know in cross-gen games the current gen has a tendancy to far oursell the game on the outgoing hardware, so there's no reason to think GT7 will be any different. And that's with feature parity. If you cut features from the PS4 version wouldn't that just split the sales even more in the PS5's favour?
Not a bad think by itself, but if you had to pay to develop the PS4 version, advertise it, publish it etc. as a different game to the PS5 version, would you even make those costs back? Possibly not.
As for player segregation, see the above comment about dynamic lighting v baked in, this is not an on/off feature, you lightmap the envoronment and create the textures accordingly. You also have the Sport mode (assuming it retains that name), you would essentially be limiting all sport mode events to the features in the PS4 version if you didn't want to segregate the player base.
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- eran0004
By that definition most or all cross gen games are completely different games. I’m not aware of any cross gen game that is identical between the two generations. And I also don’t see how that is a legal problem.
Then we’re on the same page.
Again you are forgetting that the premise is that those features would have already been developed for the PS5, so there is no additional cost associated with it. The PS4 compatible features would have to be developed anyway, so that’s also not an additional cost.
And yes, it is easy to disable options in code. Just flip a “True” to a “False” and the option won’t appear in the menu. Mixing baked and dynamic lighting is also not a big deal, just add an extra set of textures for the tracks (provided that it doesn’t increase the file size too much).
How is that an extra cost? Do you need to have more ads? Longer ads? What exactly is the cost. And does this rule not apply to graphical features?
Sure, but that’s a problem with all cross gen games as they are not identical across the different generations. The new generation versions have better graphics, often higher frame-rate and faster loading time.
Sure, if such a law exists, that allows a game to ship with different graphics options but not with different physics options, that would be a problem. But since it’s hypothetical it’s not a very strong argument.
I don’t see the problem with the game selling better on the PS5 than on the PS4. It seems like you’re expecting a cross gen release to be significantly more expensive and for that reason they must make sure to sell enough copies on the PS4. I don’t think it will be significantly more expensive, because
That sounds like a solution rather than a problem.
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- JDA1982
That's your premise perhaps, not mine. I don't for one second think that they decided late in development to make GT7 a cross gen game. Far more likely it was originally intended to be a PS4/Cross gen game when development started. Perhaps the PS4 version was scrapped before it was announced and the reinstated following issues meeting PS5 supply. There's very little chance someone decided within the last 6-8 months of development this should become cross platform for the first time.
Now that's a contradiction. How is it just as easy as a true/ false flag I'd it also requires a different texture set for every time of day playable in each environment featured. Beats me. That sure sounds like it'd take as much time as a = true or = false flag to me.
No, the rule does not apply to graphical features unless you state the graphics = x in your ad regardless of what platform it's running on. I'm not sure right now if you genuinely don't know trading standards or if you're being facetious for the sake of it. But you cannot advertise a product as being x, y and z if it's only x and y. Therefore you would need more ads to clearly differentiate the versions. It's a logistical and legal nightmare having two products that have the same name but are fundamental different.
Which does not equal a fundamental different game, I.e. having different features. All cross gen games currently have feature parity amongst themselves. Remember I'm talking features not something done better in one that exists in both I.e. resolution and frame rates etc. Again, I am not arguing against possibility, I'm arguing against probability. As for the laws, they are called advertising and trading standards. You possibly could navigate them with enough help from lawyers and the right advertising but they are different from region to region. My question is, why would you try when a much simpler and less riskh option that is also cost effective is right there?
It isn't a problem, it's expected. But they will need to sell a certain number of PS4 units to make developing it and publishing it cross gen worth while. Bearing in mind the hit a PS4 version may have on PS5 sales and copies of the game sold, which shouldn't be huge, but will exist.
So capping a major feature by PS4 capability for sport mode is a solution but capping the features of the entire game to the PS4 version isn't. Odd.
At the end f the day, the fact is no developers are releasing cross gen games that don't have feature parity at present. Are there work arounds? Sure there probably are. But you have to be damn confident in your sales numbers and P&L's.
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- eran0004
And if you would accept my premise (even if only hypothetically, you don’t have to commit in any way), what conclusions do you come to then?
If your premise is correct, that it was originally planned as a PS4 title or a cross gen title, and that no susbstantial work has been carried out to make it PS5 exclusive, then I agree with your conclusion, that the game will most likely be pretty much the same on both consoles. But that’s a pretty big if.
You are confusing the act of enabling/disabling options in a game with the process of creating the actual content. Again, the premise is that the dynamic lighting is already developed and that the baked lighting would have to be developed in any case because the PS4 is not powerful enough to handle the dynamic lighting (which I believe was your premise). And if for some reason dynamic lighting wouldn’t be possible to implement, that’s not a hinder for other features.
Why would they suddenly start to present all the details about the game in the ads? Most ads just seem to showcase gameplay, a handful of cars and a handful of tracks. I haven’t seen any ad where they went into the details of VR, or the physics or the AI. If they want to showcase things like dynamic time of day (and assuming that would be PS5 exclusive), what’s stopping them from putting a “Only on PS5” disclaimer on the screen while that footage is showing? It honestly doesn’t seem like a problem.
Why is not raytracing a feature? And how does, say, an additional aerodynamics option or tyre simulation option or a different number of cars on the grid, make the game fundamentally different in a way that raytracing or a higher framerate doesn’t?
So basically Sony would assume that somewhere in the world there is some law that might prevent them from having different features on the two versions of the game? Since we’re talking about probabilities, that one seems incredibly unlikely.
Why would you remove the feature entirely if you can just disable it from the part of the game where it’s not doable? It’s basically how VR is implemented in GT Sport.
I don’t share that view, as it’s based on speculation. The only hard fact is that most cross gen games are more or less the same between the two generations (if you ignore certain types of features). That works as an indication that GT7 might go down the same path, but it doesn’t make it unlikely that it won’t. The fact that the game has changed from PS5 exclusive to cross gen already sets it apart from most or all of those other games. The fact that it’s produced by PD, which isn’t exactly notorious for doing what everyone else is doing, increases the likelihood of GT7 being slightly different from the rest.
At this point I wouldn’t rule out anything, especially not on such loose grounds.
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- JDA1982
Likewise, I don’t dismiss your angle as possible, I just view it as unlikely. If a developer had already developed the feature that needed disabling on the older hardware I would release two versions of the game under different branding for each but as an offline player I also wouldnt give consideration to player segregation.
Player segregation is also an issue, especially in esports, you can’t have the PS5 players racing in the rain while their PS4 playing opponents are in the dry because when the weather changing feature in the PS5 version isn’t in the PS4 version. It creates a problem. But in theory, yes it’s possible. I don’t view it as a big if, I view it as a likely possibility, but of course it’s not definitive.
I’m well aware of how you enable and disable a feature/groups of code, but you have to develop the feature/code first. Again we’re coming at this from opposite perspectives, which is fine.
Define advertising? Everything you state your game can do at any time can be scrutinised (see Cyberpunk 2077 for a recent example of where you can promise what the game is like and it doesn’t meet that expectation on older hardware) and you can be forced to refund purchases through your eyeballs and damage your reputation if you get it wrong.
I once released an Android app, it was optimised for a specific device and converted for others. But the conversion for some devices wasn’t as good. I had to refund a lot of purchases for those devices and it was lesson learnt. And they had feature parity. I never promised how well they’d work, but it could have been assumed it would work just as well. And that’s very, very, very basic in comparison.
If Kazunori, PD, Sony or anyone else associated with the game advise that the game has x, y and z but it doesn’t have z on PS4, you have to do your damn best to ensure you eliminate expectation and doing that could be harder than you think. In every country you distribute in, you would need to eliminate that expectation. You could try to rely on reviews and interviews, but that’s loose and outside of your control to a large degree.
Therefore your best bet is to pay advertise those differences everywhere, and TV spots aren’t cheap. Sure they will advertise the game anyway. But will Sony want the adds to be focused on how the PS5 version is better? Why bother with the PS4 version if youre going to do that? But also you’d be forcing yourself to cover all bases in more regions. You’d likely have more, or longer adverts.
Ray tracing could become such a feature if it’s highlighted as a selling point of the game enough, even if you say, somewhere, it’s not in the PS4 version you might not eliminate expectation.
But typically, graphics are a grey area as they depend largely on what hardware the end user has. So graphics tend to be advertised as clearly as a maximum. It’s common on PC games, but within reason, it’s hard to argue that 1080p or 4K provide a fundamentally different experience as opposed to dynamic weather, time of day etc. are. Think PC games, if you meet the minimum spec you can play the game. Better specs will produce better graphics, but not a fundamentally different game feature wise.
The simplest method is to brand the games separately and advertise them separately. But there’s no suggestion that’s happening, rather everything implies the opposite that both console versions will be called Gran Turismo 7.
No, they won’t assume. Such laws exist in plenty of countries, UK included. I have (and continue to do so) worked enough of my life hand in hand with marketing people. They are experts at what you can and cannot do and say. Having two goods with the same name but provide a fundamentally different experience is creating risk. You might get away with something, but it’s a risk that could bite you on the proverbial, and a company like Sony will more than likely avoid such a risk for the little gain they might receive.
No I’m not saying remove, by “capping” I mean restricting, not deleting the code. As you say, that would be pointless, unless it was causing a conflict somewhere.
I will stake my claim on that hard fact being that way for a reason/reasons. We also don’t know that GT7 was never intended for PS4 prior to its reveal or that no other games have been developed as cross gen after being planned for PS5 first. That’s not a fact, that’s pure speculation, just as is my opinion that it probably was tied to PS4 earlier in its development at some point.
We can’t rule anything out, and I can see the angle you’re coming from and I don’t dismiss it as possible. But when it comes to probability we might just have to agree to disagree.
Ultimately if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I would prefer you to be right in truth. I just don’t expect that.
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Any likely hood of Gamescom providing some information?
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- Lux_Klonoa
- Lux Klonoa
Aside from Ratchet, Sony didn't have any real presence at last year's Gamescom, so... Unlikely, I'd say.
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- Neomone
Lol. What is this? Tell me you're not a dev without telling me you're not a dev?
That you think adding an extra set of textures for all the tracks is not a big deal says a lot about how unqualified you are to have a meaningful opinion on this.
Developers can and do create advertising around these things when they think it's appropriate for their audience. Don't limit yourself to thinking that "advertising" only amounts to 30 second TV spots and magazine pages. Anything that the developer or publisher put out to promote the game is advertising - the whole point of it is to get more people buying and playing. And in 2021 the range of things that they can do to promote a game is huge. Look at some of the stuff going on to generate buzz around Forza Horizon 5.
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unqualified opinions... thats a good one. Isnt that everyone or is that like talking about a game in depth without playing it, checking under the hood, or finding out how its made?
I'd love to know who is qualified to have a meaningful opinion about PDs GI solution cause I have no clue what they are doing but its pretty cool. Like they have over 100 lighting environment settings, way more than they allow you to choose from. example Some slightly differ to others adding more fog and whatnot from dawn to dusk. I think the only texture they swap is the skybox and cubemaps for it, if they need to, with everything else adjustable through variable parameters to get they look they want but who knows.
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- wagnerFAM98
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I don’t see how GOW will come earlier than GT7 considering we’ve seen gameplay footage of one game and the other doesn’t even have an official name yet
It was never likely anyway. It was planned for Q4 2021 and got delayed to 2022 in February 2021. You wouldn't delay a game that far away because you think it just needed a few months extra. If they knew they weren't going to make Q4 that far ahead you know they must be a long way off.
Or rather from what we know now, the PS4 version workload was going to be substantial.
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That's why I avoid using the seasons to indicate a certain time of the year. Every time I read "coming this fall" for example, I need to stop and think for a while... oh, that'll be spring then. 😂
