Gran Turismo Sport’s “Advanced Matchmaking System” & “Sportsmanship Points” Detailed

[Johnnypenso]

We have a news article on this subject but no targeted thread here unless I missed it. Please read the article before responding.

Seeing as how this game could well live or die based on the success of the matchmaking and driver rating matrix, it's pretty important for PD to make it work right out of the box. What are your hopes and fears for this system? Do you think it'll work as intended to ensure the cleanest, fairest, most closely matched online racing possible? Will this encourage you to race online when you've avoided it in the past? Have you used other driver rating systems before like that of iRacing or apps for Assetto Corsa like Minorating or Sim Racing System and how did you find them?

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Some snippets from the news article for reference:

Factors For Increase

• Race distance
• Course difficulty
• Race category

Factors For Decrease

• Driving off-track
• Wall contact
• Entering restricted zones
• Ignoring flags
• Ignoring speed limits
• Pushing other cars off the track
• Collisions with other cars

 

[scholesy1899]

Nice Johnny.

We should all know what game we're getting now and have got over it.

Focus should be on these very important mechanics that are the driving force behind most of the core gameplay. I don't think any Alto works are going to be in it.

All I played at Copperbox was vanilla arcade (pods) and online lobby with bells on (stage, LAN wasn't it?)

We've seen how the game is shaping up visually a lot now, she pretties in the most part.

I know we can't answer and need more info but...

If we are going to see this at work, when, and in what capacity?

• Pit Stop blog. Vague article or in-depth article plus video of the devs (interns) building their player rep.
• Kaz and Taka sound bites.
• Another trailer, with glimpses of it (3 frames and screenshots) giving us another approximation of a feature. Kaz interview.
• Another GTSport special live event with Takahashi-san and co. actually showing how it works with an evolved PowerPoint from Kaz.
• Kaz sitting down, playing and showing it in more detail at Motorshows/games show down stream.
• The hours after I put the disc in the tray.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Difficult for me to add anything to the discussion at the moment.
I'm still struggling to come to grips with the difference between 'Level' and 'Class'.

This image shows the 'Class' rating varying, presumably due to a few bad then good qualy/race results.

 

[iName]

My main worry is if some troll brake checks you, you get the bad end of the stick in penalties. Similar to rookies in iRacing. I don't want to get stuck in an endless loop of chaos because some bad driver or troll start ramming.

 

[Neomone]

My main worry is if some troll brake checks you, you get the bad end of the stick in penalties. Similar to rookies in iRacing. I don't want to get stuck in an endless loop of chaos because some bad driver or troll start ramming.

Sometimes you get screwed but if you're a decent driver then over time you'll get less penalties than the trolls.

And realistically you learn to place yourself in positions where it's hard for the other driver to mess you up without a chance for you to respond. After all, you could just as easily have a rookie braking early as you could have a troll brake checking you. I learned fairly early in iRacing to pull just to one side of the person I'm following as we enter braking zones for example, because at least then they have to brake AND swerve in order to collect me and I have a reasonable chance of getting out of that in one piece.

A no-fault system is actually kind of nice because the rules are so simple. Avoid contact and incidents at all costs. It means that often you have to treat people as hostile and give them some room until you've observed their driving for wee while. It makes positioning very important, which is good because that's a big part of what real racing is all about.

 

[Toysuprahot]

If the penalty system looks like anything from past GT's, clean drivers will get penalties and dirty drivers usually won't.

 

[VBR]

Regarding colisions with other cars, they've never been able to program a system whereby it effectively works out who's fault the colision was. So, I can't see this being any different. What's to stop people from being marked down because someone else runs into them through no fault of their own?

 

[GTEFGHA]

Regarding colisions with other cars, they've never been able to program a system whereby it effectively works out who's fault the colision was. So, I can't see this being any different. What's to stop people from being marked down because someone else runs into them through no fault of their own?

Making a system that will judge it fairly is impossible, they could make it so that the car with greater velocity gets penalty but then again that wouldn't protect against brakechecking...

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I posted this in the General Discussion thread a few days ago.
But it's more relevant here now this thread is up and running.

Kaz interview on Eurogamer:

"For the daily online races, there's going to be a system that's judging the players," says Yamauchi.
"A system can't always make the judgments that a human being can. So say you had a crash at one corner - who was at fault? If it was a human being, you could make the judgement. When it's a computer system, no matter how much physics data you have, it's hard to judge. In that case, you really have to make it so both are at fault for the incident. What that entails is a player's sportsmanship rating will drop. Both sides will try to avoid incidents like that."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-05-25-gran-turismo-sport-is-a-fascinating-antiquity

 

[Neomone]

Regarding colisions with other cars, they've never been able to program a system whereby it effectively works out who's fault the colision was. So, I can't see this being any different. What's to stop people from being marked down because someone else runs into them through no fault of their own?

Nothing, but that's what it's supposed to do. I feel like you're misunderstanding how the system works. Getting points isn't necessarily bad.

Let's say that if you're in no incidents then you earn 10 arbitrary "safety" points per race just from driving. That means that if you can lose 10 or less points per race from incidents, then your license will either stay the same or improve.

Random unavoidable accidents and idiots happen with the same frequency to everyone over the long term. You might get crashed out three times this week, but I'll get mine later on as well. It hurts when you're only looking at one or two races but over a hundred races it ends up being pretty even. And over a hundred races those who are better drivers will have significantly less incidents. Even with people intentionally trying to crash them.

Seriously, once you stop looking to place blame and just focus on keeping yourself safe it changes your driving significantly. Instead of just barrelling past that guy in the sand trap and trusting him not to pull onto the track you lift off and move to the far side of the track just in case he's a moron or he didn't see you.

Losing a second is always better than DNFing, especially when there's so many people that will simply go balls to the wall and put themselves into a wall/sand trap/competitor. And really, if you're in a 20 person race an idiot has a 1/19 chance of hitting you and a 18/19 chance of taking out one of the competition.

No fault assumes that everyone is going to get into some incidents, and it divides people into ranks based on who can get the least. Which is absolutely a valid and (over enough races) accurate way of doing it. The major problem with it is that it doesn't feel good to people to get points for something in the cases where it really, really wasn't their fault. Although there's less than you'd think, if you go back to replays nine times out of ten even if it wasn't your fault there was something you could have done to give yourself a better chance of avoiding the situation.

I'd like to see an implementation that was functionally the same but presented the point gain/loss in a more positive way. People respond better to gaining points instead of losing them. If that means paying a point fee to enter a race, and then earning back points based on clean driving I think that could be more palatable. But who knows how Polyphony will choose to present it.

 

[Toysuprahot]

Making a system that will judge it fairly is impossible, they could make it so that the car with greater velocity gets penalty but then again that wouldn't protect against brakechecking...

Brakechecking usually happens on straights, very rarely while taking a corner because in that case, both sides loose way too much speed, whereas on straights the other car bumps you and you gain speed. Why don't they program it in function of your position on the track?

 

[GTEFGHA]

Brakechecking usually happens on straights, very rarely while taking a corner because in that case, both sides loose way too much speed, whereas on straights the other car bumps you and you gain speed. Why don't they program it in function of your position on the track?

Yeah good idea, and for the braking zones in case of contact, the car that has greater velocity gets a penalty

 

[BrunetPaquet]

This sportsmanship thing is really intimidating me. I hope in that in Custom Lobbies (There was Online written aside of Sport on the screenshot from the "My Home" screen before it got removed by Polyphony's request.) you can decide whether the event is ranked or not or something like that.

I just wanna cruise without having to worry about my profile getting destroyed. This or failing to drift lowering my stats... yikes.

Edit reason: Better specifications.

 

[Seanspeed]

Speed limits, eh? That's interesting. Manual pitstops or maybe some sort of safety car limitation?

This sportsmanship thing is really intimidating me. I hope in that in Custom Lobbies (There was Online written aside of Sport on the screenshot from the "My Home" screen before it got removed by Polyphony's request.) you can decide whether the event is ranked or not or something like that.

I just wanna cruise without having to worry about my profile getting destroyed. This or failing to drift lowering my stats... yikes.

Edit reason: Better specifications.

I can understand that. In iRacing, it can be quite stressful constantly worrying about your safety rating. Especially when you get knocked for things that weren't your fault.

 

[Neomone]

I can understand that. In iRacing, it can be quite stressful constantly worrying about your safety rating. Especially when you get knocked for things that weren't your fault.

In iRacing, you don't need to always worry about your safety rating. They do have races where SR isn't in effect, although they're somewhat rare. I expect GTS to have at least a few no sportsmanship rating races each week, because they'll provide somewhere for the people who just want to go and have a blast.

Although, you probably shouldn't really worry about it anyway. If you're racing, then eventually it'll put you wherever you fit best. The times when it isn't your fault suck, but they are partly made up for when you see someone who is a complete retard coming and manage to dodge their bollocks of your own skill.

Having someone go flying past you and into a wall because they tried to use your car as the classic Gran Turismo cornering assist and missed is the best feeling in the world.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

I am perfectly content with this system as long I am not left feeling cheated at the end. In my opinion, online racing on consoles has always has always given me a feeling of little to no consequences and this could be a viable solution.

 

[Highlandor]

I think the general consensous of this thread is spot on i.e. it's impossible for an automated system to not just be perfect, but to even have what many would perceive as common sense.

This is reflected in iRacing's system which has been around for a while.

There's also the factor of people being able to 'cheat' the system by running around near or at the back, not getting penalties, doing time trials and levelling up. Someone's 'rating' might be good, but it doesn't guarantee their racecraft is 'good'.

Combined with people's view on good racing i.e. some will allow swapping paint, others would want 100% no contact etc, I think the situation isn't that much different to previous GT's.

Although this planned system will help in some ways, you're best bet is to be patient, do some research, look around GTP or the 'net for championships, series, leagues or just casual 'groups' who have the type of racing, racecraft and drivers that you want.

 

[Neomone]

There's also the factor of people being able to 'cheat' the system by running around near or at the back, not getting penalties, doing time trials and levelling up. Someone's 'rating' might be good, but it doesn't guarantee their racecraft is 'good'.

That factor of it is actually fine, I think. If someone is willing to back off and drive passively in order to protect their rating, the system is doing it's job.

It's not about measuring skill, it's simply about measuring how often you put your car in dangerous situations. If someone is cruising safely around at the back, the system views that as no problem. And I think most of the other players in the race would too, the person is staying out of the way and not getting into incidents.

Combined with people's view on good racing i.e. some will allow swapping paint, others would want 100% no contact etc, I think the situation isn't that much different to previous GT's.

Kinda. The thing is previous GTs allowed pretty much whatever you could get away with. Which included some pretty brutal stuff. I think with the new system the rules will probably be a lot clearer for starters, and what's acceptable will be much more similar to real world racing.

Which is mostly the point. As long as the rules are clear to everyone and encourage/punish the sorts of behaviour the devs want, the system is doing it's job. The iRacing system is far from perfect, but it does a pretty decent job at that for a minimum of expense for the developers.

 

[Highlandor]

That factor of it is actually fine, I think. If someone is willing to back off and drive passively in order to protect their rating, the system is doing it's job.

It's not about measuring skill, it's simply about measuring how often you put your car in dangerous situations. If someone is cruising safely around at the back, the system views that as no problem. And I think most of the other players in the race would too, the person is staying out of the way and not getting into incidents.

Agreed, but my point was that people will cheat the system by doing this to gain access to racing they wouldn't normally be able to race in i.e. when iRacing brought in their GT3 style races, you needed higher license to race in these, but those licenses were easy to get if you 'cheated' the sytem.

Then when the race started, being on grid with 30/40+ other racers, these people simply did not have the racecraft to get through the first few corners / laps without causing mayhem. Those races were an absolute nightmare if you were mid pack, or at / near the back.

Kinda. The thing is previous GTs allowed pretty much whatever you could get away with. Which included some pretty brutal stuff. I think with the new system the rules will probably be a lot clearer for starters, and what's acceptable will be much more similar to real world racing.

Which is mostly the point. As long as the rules are clear to everyone and encourage/punish the sorts of behaviour the devs want, the system is doing it's job. The iRacing system is far from perfect, but it does a pretty decent job at that for a minimum of expense for the developers.

Yes, for random lobbies, but there was a huge amount of organised racing from the highest alien level all the way down to just casual guys. Finding people to suit you was the best way to get the best out of the game, something which I can't see as being any different for GT sport.

It doesn't matter whether it's GT, FPS or games like Pro Evo / FIFA, there will always be people who sandbag (to give themselves easier opponents), cheat or just plain troll people.

I think the organised side of GT online greatly increases the chance of avoiding these and finding what you want.

 

[Akiras Mantis]

I have a 19 year old online friend on PS4. He plays GTAV and Rocket Leauge. He's gets a little frustrated because I don't play any games. I keep telling him I'm waiting for Gran Turismo Sport. He gets excited and brags about playing GT1 & 2. He says he's gonna get GT Sport. Wreck me. Beat me. Poor guy.. he doesn't realize I'm not racin with his dumbass



I think this Sportsmanship point thing is gonna work very well. Noobs will wreck A LOT on EASY tracks. While the rest of us will be doing 15 laps at Nurb. Sure, we'll make some mistakes, but 3 hours of very decent driving should show in our driver class, right?

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I have a 19 year old online friend on PS4. He plays GTAV and Rocket Leauge. He's gets a little frustrated because I don't play any games. I keep telling him I'm waiting for Gran Turismo Sport. He gets excited and brags about playing GT1 & 2. He says he's gonna get GT Sport. Wreck me. Beat me. Poor guy.. he doesn't realize I'm not racin with his dumbass



I think this Sportsmanship point thing is gonna work very well. Noobs will wreck A LOT on EASY tracks. While the rest of us will be doing 15 laps at Nurb. Sure, we'll make some mistakes, but 3 hours of very decent driving should show in our driver class, right?

Well, yes.
According to Jordans news post.

A successful, and reasonably uneventful, race in say Gr.1 on Nurburg. for 15 laps should be worthy of an increase of your Sportmanship points.
Which in turn should affect your Driver Class.

Although 'Driver Class' is still somewhat of a mystery for me.

 

[Mike458]

So... is this the same thing as Safety Rating in iRacing? I kind of like this then...

Driver class I think effects only your driving skill like iRating I think (I have no idea, don't quote me on any of this, I'm just randomly guessing)?

 

[Tassie_tiger]

So... is this the same thing as Safety Rating in iRacing? I kind of like this then...

Driver class I think effects only your driving skill like iRating I think (I have no idea, don't quote me on any of this, I'm just randomly guessing)?

I've never tried iRacing, but it sounds like it's a similar system.

The thing that's a little confusing is that there is 3 ratings.
A 'Level' rating, 'Driver Class' rating, and 'Sportmanship' points.

According to the news report, "Driver Class will represent the overall speed of the player and how well they perform in races."
Which suggest to me it's some sort of mathematical function of results vs. clean racing.
So therefore perhaps 'Level' simply relates to your progress or results from 'Campaign Mode' and the challenges within.
Or perhaps it's also related to qualy and race results.

I'm not sure which rating confuses me the most at this stage.
As you can tell, I still haven't got my head around it yet.

 

[Neomone]

So therefore perhaps 'Level' simply relates to your progress or results from 'Campaign Mode' and the challenges within.

It's probably just straight up participation, like XP in GT5 or Driver Level in Forza. You complete a race, you get points. It's a grind meter.

Basically, it's just to tap into the sense of achievement that people get for having the biggest e-willy. "I'm level 764 and you're only level 3! I'm a better person than you!" Silly, but it works for a surprising amount of people.

 

[scholesy1899]

I've never tried iRacing, but it sounds like it's a similar system.

The thing that's a little confusing is that there is 3 ratings.
A 'Level' rating, 'Driver Class' rating, and 'Sportmanship' points.

According to the news report, "Driver Class will represent the overall speed of the player and how well they perform in races."
Which suggest to me it's some sort of mathematical function of results vs. clean racing.
So therefore perhaps 'Level' simply relates to your progress or results from 'Campaign Mode' and the challenges within.

I'm not sure which rating confuses me the most at this stage.
As you can tell, I still haven't got my head around it yet.

And as I've said in the second post, this is what we need to see at work. It's the core of the game and these mechanics must be shown working.

We need to see it to further discuss the game as everybodies getting antsy round here lately, due to no news.

Why are there still posts about standards, offline career grind, large car list, course maker possibility, parts upgrade and even oil change? Because not everyone is on here everyday like me? LOL

I bemoaned all this over a month ago now, then moved on, because I've kept my eyes and ears open so I know what game I'm getting. And I like the look of this direction (tried esport with PCARS)

I'll still want a game with vast amounts of cars and customisation at some point down the line.
If 2 types of GT game have to evolve from this then so be it.

Apologies, descended into rant mode.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's probably just straight up participation, like XP in GT5 or Driver Level in Forza. You complete a race, you get points. It's a grind meter.

Basically, it's just to tap into the sense of achievement that people get for having the biggest e-willy. "I'm level 764 and you're only level 3! I'm a better person than you!" Silly, but it works for a surprising amount of people.

I question that.
Surely you wouldn't rise in level if you continually fail, even though you participate often.
Certain parameters should be needed to be met to rise in level.

And yet, I've no evidence to the contrary either.
So it could well be as simple as you suggest.

And as I've said in the second post, this is what we need to see at work. It's the core of the game and these mechanics must be shown working.

We need to see it to further discuss the game as every bodies getting antsy round here lately, due to no news.

Why are there still posts about standards, offline career grind, large car list, course maker possibility, parts upgrade and even oil change? Because not everyone is on here everyday like me? LOL

I bemoaned all this over a month ago now, then moved on, because I've kept my eyes and ears open so I know what game I'm getting. And I like the look of this direction (tried esport with PCARS)

I'll still want a game with vast amounts of cars and customisation at some point down the line.
If 2 types of GT game have to evolve from this then so be it.

No news?
It seems to me we've seen quite a bit over the last month.

Information is there for those wishing to find it.
If people opt to post regarding those things it's through laziness, nothing else.

But I'm like you.
I still want a GT game, a true GT game.
Which sadly it seems isn't happening this time around.

But again, like you, this direction of GT intrigues me and I'm looking forward to see what it offers.

 

[scholesy1899]

But a week in games news is a long time, been a bit Wild West round here lately = No news.

I deem the front page articles of late as old news but I did attend Copperbox, nothing shown to me since seems new other than more trees and the physics may have moved on from London.

PD's next showing should be sportsmanship/etiquette/sports mode centric.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I respectfully disagree.

Let's not forget this game is still over 4 months from release, and yet we've already seen heaps of live game play and had many questions answered.
Fair to say I would liked to have seen different questions asked, but still.

At some point a few surprises need to be kept as just that.

The biggest disappointment was the loss of the Beta.
That would have quenched the thirst somewhat.

So while we may still get some small extra teasers between now and launch, it isn't that far away, so no more earth-shattering news between now and then really shouldn't come as that big a shock.

 

[scholesy1899]

I've played it (in) and watched 'Arcade mode' videos so far. I know a GT will always look pretty.

The core mechanic that is surely going to drive this game should be a surprise? I'm not going to even see a glimpse of how it plays out until I put the disc in?

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Well in respect to the thread title, I'm not sure we need to know every single detail 4 months from release.
We already have a reasonable grasp of how things will play out.

Even if we learn nothing more between now and release, it won't take long before everything is revealed after that anyway.
It may even take a while after the fact to come to grips with how it seems to operate.

Personally I have no issue with that.