Grey areas of clean racing.

[BenKrishman]

As I've been racing online more and more recently(and coming across a surprising number of fun clean races) I've been running into more and more situations where I feel like I'm giving up time and letting my opponent through just to make sure that no contact is made. When I'm racing with someone where the competition is good and close(2-3 carlengths) I find it very easy to race cleanly. Brake a bit early, wait for an opening and capitalize if it's there. Keep speed on the straights but not too much if I can't pass, and try to anticipate their acceleration to keep the gap close. However when the racing starts getting really close I find it much harder to race with absolutely no contact and still keep things competitive. If there is a ca rlength or less between the two cars, and one is not significantly faster than the other either through the corners or on the straights it seems to make passing almost possible, but very difficult leading to some situations where contact could be highly possible.

And example of this would be on Suzuka leading up to and through 130R. Say you have 2 cars running identical tunes, so one should not be faster than the other. Coming out of Spoon the car in the lead just misses the apex but the car behind him hits it gaining a mph or 2 advantage. Coming down the stretch with that advantage and the draft he is able to close the gap a lot and as the car in first place rides the right side of the road preparing for the turn ahead, and the car behind, with a slight speed advantage now swings out to his left to try and pass. However as they're approaching the front of the trailing(and passing) car is only up to the door of the leader(who has the outside line at this point). Now if I'm leading, and the car behind me pulls up inside, to my door he may be near my blindspot(depending on my car) but I pretty much know he's there. My question is who has the right of way in this situation, who needs to yield the line? Should the driver in front, holding the outside line(which is very necessary to take 130R at speed) be able to turn in and make the driver attempting to pass back down or should the passing car hold his line and attempt to make the pass through the corner?

I figure that there is probably not much of a clear cut answer to this, but I'd really like to hear what everyone has to say about situations like these.

 

[Jack]

Hey.

Check the OLR rules here. Section 8 is what your looking for.

Talking of 130R as your example, Ive had many incidents there with people thinking they have right of way and just diving to overtake me. Ive done it myself also.

Most guys I race with now dont even try to overtake going into 130R for a number of reasons. Side by side through there you lose alot of time. If your on the outside your more than likely to hit the sand / rumble strip that seperates the track and the run off, which is more than likely to spin you at full attack.

Personally I use the white line across the track approaching 130R (about 2 seconds before you turn in), to judge. If Im not side by side when I hit the line I pull back behind the car and go round single-file. If I am ahead alot of guys back off to give you room so you can take the proper racing line.

The right of way situation your talking about depends. If the car doesnt have an overlap on you, then no, you dont give way. Its your right to take the line. But if they do have an overlap, you must give your position or try to carry speed around the outside.

Most GTP guys know these rules and when you race with them it can be seen. Racing with the public is difficult and some arent aware of the rules. At the end of the day its how you judge the situation when your arriving at the corner. Get more track time and it will become natural to how you deal with it.

Hope that helps!?

Jack

 

[CodeRedR51]

If I am side by side with another driver going into a tough corner, I will either let way off and give them the spot back, or slow down enough and turn in a bit early giving them plenty of room. I love finishing up front, but I will not take anyone out to get there. If I accidentally hit the back of somebody, I will usually slow down and let them take the spot back.

 

[Forgetful]

My rule is, it's his right to the track space beside me, and we're both responsible for maintaining our 'lanes', IF he got up to, and broke the plane of my rear bumper, BEFORE the braking starts. Some people think the A-Pillar is where some one should be to commit, but I find that to be overkill.

FIA Sporting Code: Annexe L: Chapter IV Section 2.

Overtaking

a) During a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
b) If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use
of his rear-view mirror, the fl ag marshal(s) will give a warning by
waving the blue fl ag to indicate that another competitor wants to
overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue fl ag may be
penalised by the Stewards of the Meeting.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of
the offender from the race.
c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to
the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties
ranging from a fi ne to exclusion from the race. The repetition
of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in exclusion
from the race.
d) Any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The
persistent driving of several vehicles abreast or in a fan-shaped
arrangement is authorised only if another car is not trying to
overtake. Otherwise, the blue fl ag will be waved.
e) The penalty for ignoring the blue fl ag will also be imposed on
drivers who obstruct part of the track, and shall be more severe
in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging from a fi ne to
exclusion from the race. The same penalty shall be applied to
drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order
to prevent other competitors from overtaking.


Take from that what you will.

 

[EERS4YEARS]

Its quite simple... dont ride the outside line. Drive like real race car drivers and take a defensive line, never give them a chance to get to your inside. The way the penalty system works on this game if you come from outside and rub someone on your inside you get a 5 sec penalty, i dont let this happen to me anymore.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Now if I'm leading, and the car behind me pulls up inside, to my door he may be near my blindspot(depending on my car) but I pretty much know he's there. My question is who has the right of way in this situation, who needs to yield the line?

If the driver on the inside has substantial overlap before turning into the corner, he may continue his passing manouvre. However, it's also his responsibility that no collision occurs. That means he can't ignore the driver on the outside line, but must give him enough space to be able to get around the corner. In case of no substantial overlap, the driver on the inside should back off.

These type of situations require a lot of skill and knowledge to handle properly from both drivers and is only mastered by a low percentage of drivers you find online. A lot of fair drivers decide to back off when they end up in such a situation and the unfair or overambitioned/lesser skilled drivers tend to cause collisions then.

So it's not really a grea area. However, taking the right decision at such a moment is a difficult one...

 

[BenKrishman]

Thanks for helping to clear that up, everything that was said makes a lot of sense. The substantial overlap that Hugo(as well as others) mentioned seems to make the most sense, as the driver coming up the inside has much better visibility of the outside car than the outside car has of the inside(unless they're side by side).

 

[petter mo]

if we could use headsets in the race would be awsome then we could tell people where we are turning into the corner

i use that in forza 2 and it helps drasticly to not colid with each other

 

[Forgetful]

if we could use headsets in the race would be awsome then we could tell people where we are turning into the corner

i use that in forza 2 and it helps drasticly to not colid with each other

Been using a Teamspeak server for months now, with the NA PSU guys. It's been fantastic for GT5P, and not having voice is like returning to a time without indoor plumbing.

 

[petter mo]

when 2 cars comes into a corner at the same time ,then both cars have to leave space for each other
,the car on the inside have to take the corner tight so that he dont drift out and wipe out the car on the outside..
and the car on the outside cant take apex like he usualy does he have to stay wide or else the cars will trade paint..
the car that leads should have driven defensive in the first place so that the car behind never would be able to take the inside of the corner..
so it depent on how god the other players are and their choise of race line when they have to defend their place..
thats my opinion ,well thats how i try to race..

 

[The Outlaw]

when 2 cars comes into a corner at the same time ,then both cars have to leave space for each other
,the car on the inside have to take the corner tight so that he dont drift out and wipe out the car on the outside..
and the car on the outside cant take apex like he usualy does he have to stay wide or else the cars will trade paint..
the car that leads should have driven defensive in the first place so that the car behind never would be able to take the inside of the corner..
so it depent on how god the other players are and their choise of race line when they have to defend their place..
thats my opinion ,well thats how i try to race..

+1 👍 Glad you brought that up.

A lot of times the driver on the outside doesn't leave enough room for the driver on the inside, and ends up turning right into the driver on the inside line who was attempting a perfectly reasonable (in real racing) pass. This happens a lot at T1 at Suzuka, as one driver will get the draft and try and stick a pass on the very inside while the driver on the outside simply turns into the driver on the inside who has nowhere left to go, thus causing an accident. I notice a lot of drivers lack a proper use of peripheral perception/vision when racing side by side. I know in the game you're peripheral vision is lacking in most cases, but don't go blaming the driver on the inside for a collision simply because you're too ignorant and lazy to notice or allow the car to attempt a reasonable pass on you.

THIS is how it's done fellas...👍 Notice how both Villenueve and Arnoux were always aware of what was going on around them, and were able to react quickly to any move a driver might make, always giving the neccesary room to prevent an accident. This is one thing that I notice a lot of drivers even here on GTP seem to lack unfortunately But of course you don't want to be doing this type of stuff if there is a noticeable amount of lag.

 

[Synwraith]

Absolutely incredible video.

All the best
Maz

 

[Blitz187]

THIS is how it's done fellas...👍 Notice how both Villenueve and Arnoux were always aware of what was going on around them, and were able to react quickly to any move a driver might make, always giving the neccesary room to prevent an accident. This is one thing that I notice a lot of drivers even here on GTP seem to lack unfortunately But of course you don't want to be doing this type of stuff if there is a noticeable amount of lag.

Yup thats some proper racing! Seen that battle before on a DVD I have lying around... Epic battle!

 

[African Kat]

@timeattack07gt has it spot on.

In the situation you talk about @benKrishman ( when someone is on your right rear door, approaching a sharp right-hander) you don't have to back off, as long as you keep to the left side of the track, allowing the other driver reasonable space. No grey area.

Although i can understand your dilemma, as you have good intentions and don't want to be tagged as a punter.

Hopefully GT5's collision physics will be tweaked to be less sensitive.👍

 

[Nicksfix]

Very nice video timeattck07gt. 👍

It also shows some sportmanship on others getting out of the way for the faster on-coming cars. 💡

 

[The Outlaw]

Very nice video timeattck07gt. 👍

It also shows some sportmanship on others getting out of the way for the faster on-coming cars. 💡

Thanks...it was the first thing to come to mind when I saw petter mo's post I'll never forget such ballsy, clean, respectful racing 👍

I also agree that it does show a lot of sportsmanship to let a car through that you know for a fact is a lot faster than you, unless you're fighting for the lead of course. When you really have something on the line to fight for (in professional racing) then it is a different story, but in a game that you play for fun and for a bit of competition, it isn't all that enjoyable getting stuck behind a much slower car and then having no chance to catch up to the leader once you finally get past, simply because you got stuck starting behind them on the grid thanks to luck of the draw. Of course you don't have to let the much faster car by, but it does show a lot of sportsmanship in my opinion. That's also why it would be nice to have qualifying in GT5, as the grid would be sorted much better in terms of drivers pace. In short 5 lap sprint races it's easy to get stuck fighting your way through the field the entire race, never getting the chance to have a true battle with a driver of a similar pace who was out in front all by himself the entire time. That's just my 2 cents though 👍

 

[Blitz187]

I also agree that it does show a lot of sportsmanship to let a car through that you know for a fact is a lot faster than you, unless you're fighting for the lead of course. When you really have something on the line to fight for (in professional racing) then it is a different story, but in a game that you play for fun and for a bit of competition, it isn't all that enjoyable getting stuck behind a much slower car and then having no chance to catch up to the leader once you finally get past, simply because you got stuck starting behind them on the grid thanks to luck of the draw. Of course you don't have to let the much faster car by, but it does show a lot of sportsmanship in my opinion. That's also why it would be nice to have qualifying in GT5, as the grid would be sorted much better in terms of drivers pace. In short 5 lap sprint races it's easy to get stuck fighting your way through the field the entire race, never getting the chance to have a true battle with a driver of a similar pace who was out in front all by himself the entire time. That's just my 2 cents though 👍

I understand the sportsmanship part of your post, but I was thinking... As one of the slower drivers should I always just let faster drivers through?? I mean I will be a good sport then but I'll never get to battle that way or learn to battle better, if I were to do that.... Of course if your lapping me or something like that its a different story, but if your fighting your way through the field and come across me, I would personally rather give you a fair, clean fight for my spot then just give it up for the mere fact that your faster... I dont know if Im being selfish or unsportsman like but this is just a thought that came to mind when I read you post.

 

[Hugo Boss]

I also agree that it does show a lot of sportsmanship to let a car through that you know for a fact is a lot faster than you, unless you're fighting for the lead of course. When you really have something on the line to fight for (in professional racing) then it is a different story, but in a game that you play for fun and for a bit of competition, it isn't all that enjoyable getting stuck behind a much slower car and then having no chance to catch up to the leader once you finally get past, simply because you got stuck starting behind them on the grid thanks to luck of the draw. Of course you don't have to let the much faster car by, but it does show a lot of sportsmanship in my opinion.

If you get stuck behind a much slower car, you simply need to work on your racing and overtaking skills in my opinion. Personally the fun would wear thin quickly if people make way because they suspect I'm faster. Fair interaction with other drivers is what makes the game for me, whether they are faster or slower than me. At Suzuka I've made successful passes at every corner on both the in- as the outside. I just love to be forced to become creative when somebody is making it difficult to get overtaken. If that blows the opportunity to catch the leader(s), so be it. The journey to the finish line is more important than the winning itself.

Ofcourse drivers are free to let others pass, when they don't feel comfortable with the pressure or when they think the faster driver can tow them to the front. Only as a race admin I don't want people to think it's bad sportsmanship if they held up another driver. It's more a lack of self respect if you let every faster driver pass. You're not going to learn much from that either. The more interaction you have with other drivers, the more you learn from it 👍

 

[S13180sx]

Where are these clean races you speak of? Never seen one - every race I have ever been in is like dodgem cars..

 

[Ardius]

Firstly, about 130R:
It should never be taken side by side, someone always should yield before the actual turning point. A general rule of thumb is that the car that is physically in front should have the corner and the other car should slow and slot behind them. Generally, if you are able to catch up half way down that straight from Spoon, you can usually make the overtake cleanly before 130R, otherwise don't bother and just follow the car ahead.
Its far easier and safer to attempt overtakes at Casio or on the straight before 130R, quite simply, 130R is not an overtaking place. The closer is gets to the corner before the overtake is made, the slower both drivers will have to go around it in order to make enough room for each other. So it benefits both drivers to make sure they are in single-file before they reach the corner.

On the "slower drivers" thing:
The only time a slower driver should let faster drivers past is in a lapping situation. Otherwise, thats the whole point of racing and overtaking! If you're trying to overtake someone, it is almost always a person that is slower than you (hence why you caught them up for whatever reason), so by logic if you took out all the slower drivers, you wouldn't be racing anyone!

 

[Blitz187]

Where are these clean races you speak of? Never seen one - every race I have ever been in is like dodgem cars..

Check the "Race Events" sub-forum here and choose one of the many races available there... Follow the time schedule and you will get clean racing! 👍

 

[Nicksfix]

The more interaction you have with other drivers, the more you learn from it 👍

Exactly right.
The other night while at expert 650 HSR,I was stuck behind a racer in a 'Vette,I was in P8.My Lotus was obviously faster and handled a lot better.Every time I tried to put myself in position to pass,I got blocked.OK,hmmmm,a challenge for me now to get around this guy,cleanly.The thought of sticking my nose under his car and giving him a "NASCAR" style nudge had crossed my mind,but I wanted to do it in a little better manner.I followed him around the circuit for 2 laps,studying his weaknesses and his strengths.I picked up where I could get him.As he exited on the tunnel turn,he had this tendency of slipping out to the high side.While in the tunnel getting ready to exit,I took it to the high side ,then nose dived inside of him and made a very successfull clean pass.Granted,I did not win the race,ended up in P7,the others in front of us had already clocked out,no way of catching them.The point is there,by knowing where and when to pass,knowing your opponents strengths and weaknesses all come in to play.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Firstly, about 130R:
It should never be taken side by side, someone always should yield before the actual turning point. A general rule of thumb is that the car that is physically in front should have the corner and the other car should slow and slot behind them. Generally, if you are able to catch up half way down that straight from Spoon, you can usually make the overtake cleanly before 130R, otherwise don't bother and just follow the car ahead.
Its far easier and safer to attempt overtakes at Casio or on the straight before 130R, quite simply, 130R is not an overtaking place. The closer is gets to the corner before the overtake is made, the slower both drivers will have to go around it in order to make enough room for each other. So it benefits both drivers to make sure they are in single-file before they reach the corner.

You're not correct here, Ardius. For 130R the same rules apply as for every other corner. The rules for overtaking can be found under the GTP OLR Rules & Guidelines.

The other night while at expert 650 HSR,I was stuck behind a racer in a 'Vette,I was in P8.My Lotus was obviously faster and handled a lot better.Every time I tried to put myself in position to pass,I got blocked.OK,hmmmm,a challenge for me now to get around this guy,cleanly.The thought of sticking my nose under his car and giving him a "NASCAR" style nudge had crossed my mind,but I wanted to do it in a little better manner.I followed him around the circuit for 2 laps,studying his weaknesses and his strengths.I picked up where I could get him.As he exited on the tunnel turn,he had this tendency of slipping out to the high side.While in the tunnel getting ready to exit,I took it to the high side ,then nose dived inside of him and made a very successfull clean pass.Granted,I did not win the race,ended up in P7,the others in front of us had already clocked out,no way of catching them.The point is there,by knowing where and when to pass,knowing your opponents strengths and weaknesses all come in to play.

Great example, Nicksfix 👍 The more experience you get, the sooner you'll be able to judge where to overtake your opponent cleanly.

 

[Ardius]

You're not correct here, Ardius. For 130R the same rules apply as for every other corner. The rules for overtaking can be found under the GTP OLR Rules & Guidelines.

It might be different in the OLR, but this corner is not a side-by-side corner, one person has to yeild or otherwise take the corner a lot, lot slower. I don't really know what part of what I said is wrong.
I'm merely stating its generally ill-advised to attempt overtaking at this corner.

The driver furthest ahead has the responsibility of making sure he doesn't run the other driver off the road, so if he is on the outside going into 130R, he has to slow down a lot in order to take the corner wider and allow the driver on the inside enough room. The same goes vice versa, except on the inside, he has to slow down even more and take the corner extremely tightly to give the space on the outside. With this corner, its for the benefit of drivers to yeild one way or the other and take the optimum line otherwise both drivers will be slowed down a lot.
The alternative way is just for the driver ahead to run his normal line and ignore the other driver, in which case if the 2nd driver behind is on the outside, he will be run off the road and if he is on the inside, he will run into the side of the first driver and knock him off. So in this case the 2nd driver may as well yield and run behind for a run into Casio. I would see this as inconsiderate or dirty driving, but the blame is equally shared for both drivers not being considerate or thinking ahead.

I'm not saying this is how all corners should be approached, 130R is a unique case.

 

[Hugo Boss]

You stated: "quite simply, 130R is not an overtaking place". That was my main concern.

The thing is that most drivers are not willing to go slower when they are on the outside, or that drivers are not willing to abort the passing manouvre when they're not far enough alongside. That is what causes a lot of accidents. It doesn't change the fact that 130R still IS an overtaking place.

The amount of drivers I trust entering 130R side by side, is still increasing by the month

 

[Ardius]

But at the critical part of the corner, I have never ever seen someone make an overtake stick without both drivers being heavily impeded avoiding each other.
Ok, so it is an overtaking place, maybe I should have worded it "it is not a place where I advise people to overtake". But then surely in my mind that makes it a bad overtaking spot...hence not an overtaking place?
If you went by the definition of an overtaking place as "every corner" maybe. But I see an overtaking place as somewhere you can overtake without losing too much time and make a move stick with as little risk to your car as well as your opponent's. 130R doesn't fit that description to me primarily because its so risky and always ends up with both drivers slowing down more than they would if they, for example, had a passing move down Casio, where little time is lost as both cars should be quite slow anyway and have a fair of bit of space to move and still keep some momentum.

 

[Blitz187]

I had it last night with a fellow GTPer on Suzuka... I was entering 130R side by side with GTP_Warrie and he was on the outside and me on the inside.... I was trying to make a pass and looked to the side and saw we were side by side... I kept my line and he kept his... as we entered I think he waited a tad bit with turn in because as I entered and left the apex he was RIGHT on my bumper and passed me out on the straight going to casio because he was carrying more speed... So I guess it really depends on the drivers... I think the casual racer would not be able to pass cleanly in that section of the track... However if Im not side by side going down that straight I WILL pull back and move in behind him and try and get that person at Casio again...

-edit: If Im not mistaken, F1 will be at Suzuka this year... Lets see if they pass at 130R

 

[Hugo Boss]

That's because it's more difficult than rounding a corner perfectly. You need to time everything exactly right. Also, overtaking during cornering always costs time.

I've been overtaken more than a few times in 130R myself, without losing a lot of time. I've made those passes myself as well.
It's simply the next step up in racing: 'how to lose the least amount of time when overtaking or being overtaken".

 

[Ardius]

I had it last night with a fellow GTPer on Suzuka... I was entering 130R side by side with GTP_Warrie and he was on the outside and me on the inside.... I was trying to make a pass and looked to the side and saw we were side by side... I kept my line and he kept his... as we entered I think he waited a tad bit with turn in because as I entered and left the apex he was RIGHT on my bumper and passed me out on the straight going to casio because he was carrying more speed... So I guess it really depends on the drivers... I think the casual racer would not be able to pass cleanly in that section of the track... However if Im not side by side going down that straight I WILL pull back and move in behind him and try and get that person at Casio again...

-edit: If Im not mistaken, F1 will be at Suzuka this year... Lets see if they pass at 130R

Thats what I mean, he yielded eventually anyway, its just faster and cleaner that way. The actual apex of the turn is not possible to run side by side and not lose substantial amounts of speed, so you may as well lose a bit of speed before hand and follow the other driver for a pop up the inside or outside of Casio than try to go side by side around 130R.
Casio is my favourite place for overtakes, just because speed is so crucial through 130R and it sets you up really nicely for a pass into Casio. And, if the cars ahead try to run side by side through 130R, they just make themselves victims for an easy pass into Casio, this has happened a lot when I've played - faster cars have goe flying ahead up the straight to 130R, then tried to battle through it and ended up way, way slower than my car which took the normal line, so I catch cars that did have a 5 or so second lead within 1 corner and they're all nicely setup for me to overtake into Casio.

If they had gone through a bit sensibly and carried their speed rather than slowing for a battle around 130R, that wouldn't happen. So, like I say, its not a great overtaking place in the end.

That's because it's more difficult than rounding a corner perfectly. You need to time everything exactly right. Also, overtaking during cornering always costs time.

I've been overtaken more than a few times in 130R myself, without losing a lot of time. I've made those passes myself as well.
It's simply the next step up in racing: 'how to lose the least amount of time when overtaking or being overtaken".

True, overtaking in corners always costs time, but this corner way more than others. And the way to lose the least time in overtaking is to not overtake here in my opinion, its to wait till Casio or later in the race.

 

[Blitz187]

I have a feeling that this is one of those issues that can drag on for ages...

*grabs a cup of java and sits down--