Group Lotus to Tony Fernades: Cease and Desist

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by prisonermonkeys, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Peter.

    Peter.

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    So, rumors came along that Team Lotus were dropping the Lotus name, to become Caterham, Lotus Renault would become Lotus, and now, Team Lotus says that's not happening, and the French government is looking to make Renault more Renault and French once again?
     
  2. CarolinaBlue704

    CarolinaBlue704

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    Crazy situation. :crazy:
     
  3. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Half marks.

    Assuming this is true, I'm reading it as meaning that both teams will drop the Lotus name.
     
  4. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    I'm not sure if this is true but I think I'll just post it here...Pretty gloomy.
     
  5. Pupik

    Pupik Staff Emeritus

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    This is one of the most painfully-stupid and petty arguments to drag on in F1 for a long time. And I've been watching for 25 years.
     
  6. lbsf1

    lbsf1

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    Have lotus ever thought of any publicity is good publicity, caterham lotus is effectivally giving proton lotus free advertising in f1, but they want them to stop them giving them this free advertisement.

    All seems very petty and bonkers to me.
     
  7. tribolik

    tribolik

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    I wouldnt be suprised... Lotus hasnt given renault any money this season so far... so why should renault keep using the name?
     
  8. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    I think that's just the German. If French is the language of love, then German is the language of anger. Really, really efficient anger.
     
  9. SaberFire

    SaberFire

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    [​IMG]

    I have to agree with you there. :sly:
     
  10. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Here's an English translation, courtesy of Babelfish.

    The executive summary is that Fernandes voluntarily gave up the Lotus name because he felt that the situation with two Lotus teams was unsustainable, rather than the "conspiracy theory" that the Malaysian government is putting its weight behind Group Lotus. Fernandes claims nothing about the team will change except for the name.

    This slightly contradicts some of the reports that have emerged, though one has to wonder if Fernandes isn't trying to put on a brave face about it all. Of course, Babelfish doesn't do syntax very well, so something may have been lost in translation.
     
  11. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Okay, both teams are looking to change their names, but the process has been stalled because Ferrari, Sauber and Hispania was a full, formal discussion with the Formula 1 Commission; it appears they're worried about constant name changes damaging the sport if theas change names too frequently. This is a problem, because if the discussion rejects the name changes and the teams decide to keep their current names, then there are two Lotus teams on the grid - which also damages the sport.
     
  12. Ardius

    Ardius

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    It hasn't so far.
     
  13. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    So you don't think the endless bickering over who is more like Lotus than the other, the long and drawn out court case that effectively resovled nothing, and the way Bahar and Fernandes seem to be at one another's throats over the whole ordeal hasn't had negative consequences for Formula 1?
     
  14. Ardius

    Ardius

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    What endless bickering? This was put down and dead months ago with the court case. The only thing happening now is that supposedly Fernandes is looking to sell the name to GL.
    And no, I don't think it has affected F1 at all, just like none of the other recent political fights between teams haven't really affected anything. F1 is politics. It always has been.

    The only people that continue to care about this matter are those who for whatever reason wish to see one side or the other fail and their associated companies collapse. Its certainly not had much impact at all for the general public and the average F1 fan seems rather tired of hearing about it.

    Its not surprising teams like Sauber and HRT are putting themselves in this position - Sauber were denied from changing their name last year without losing TV money and HRT obviously have something to gain taking the TV money off Team Lotus.
     
  15. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Renault have been forced to do the same thing - for two years. Shouldn't they be entitled to a name change the way Sauber were?
     
  16. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Yes, with the agreement of all the other teams. Thats how it works. Sauber couldn't get the agreement of all the other teams for 2010, so had to re-lodge their application for 2011. It was probably due to the application being so late and also because BMW Sauber's 6th in 2009 was worth a fair bit of money. Whereas 8th in 2010 less so. Taking the TV money off them for 2009 was obviously a fair bit more damaging.
    It could also be that Peter Sauber simply wanted to keep the "BMW" part of the name to show his appreciation for the support BMW gave in 2010 behind the scenes.
    The same applies to Renault and Lotus. No one has said Renault/Team Lotus cannot change their name. All that has been said is some teams are worried about letting people constantly keep changing their names.
    Personally I think its a load of fuss over nothing with some hidden agendas for a couple of teams. Chances are they will be allowed to change names as I see no reason why not.
     
  17. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    I actually think that's a pretty poor excuse. It's fairly clear that, in the event of both teams being granted a name change, it would be their intention to retain those name for years to come.
     
  18. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Thats probably what the teams want some assurance of, they are probably worried that Renault will rename themselves Lotus only for Lotus (as a car company) to pull the plug a year or two later if their car sales are not as great as expected.
    Not to mention that GL don't actually own much of Renault and currently only sponsor the team for a fairly average amount.

    Same goes for Fernandes. It could be that Caterham, Air Asia or whatever collapse and he too feels the need to change his team's name yet again.

    It should be pointed out that this would be the 3rd year in succession that the Lotus team has been re-named.
    (Lotus Racing > Team Lotus > presumably Team Caterham).
    I'm guessing too that the teams are a bit sick of Fernandes constantly requesting the change of his team's name, especially as the ownership hasn't really changed. Its fair enough when a team gets bought out every year with new ownership (Jordan > MF1 > Spyker > Force India) but in this case nothing at the team has changed apart from a legal issue with the original name.

    Ferrari may be worried about losing the Renault name off the grid, even if the engines remain. Perhaps they prefer having the manufacturer competition, even if its not completely real.
     
  19. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    If a company collapses and ownership changes, then it happens. The teams can only express their intentions for the future; they cannot make decisions now about what might happen in the future. Under that logic, every team is caught in a problematic state where the companies that own them could collapse, forcing a transfer of ownership. Renault and Team Fernandes can only offer their assuances that they intend to use their new names for years to come. They cannot shelve their current plans on the basis of a distant future that may or may not come to pass.
     
  20. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Of course its a decision based on the future! We're talking about changing a name for next year! We're already assuming both teams are going to be around next year, just as we can assume Fernandes isn't trustworthy enough to keep the name he chooses for next year too.

    And actually yes both teams can "shelve their plans". They can easily continue to run as they are. There is not some issue where they won't be able to run in F1 next if they can't change their names.
     
  21. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    The immediate, tangible future. Not something that may or may not happen five years from now.

    Both teams have plans to tie the teams into existing manufacturers. Group Lotus' strategy in particular appears to hinge on having a presence in all tiers of motorsport, and they have already spent plenty of money on GP2, GP3 and Indycar title sponsorship deals. To be unable to run a team under the Lotus name as they intend to threatens their marketing plan, which threatens their future. Likewise, Tony Fernandes has invested in Caterham and is attempting to take the car to Asia markets, with the connection to his team forming a significant part of their marketing strategy.

    So while they can easily run in Formula 1 under their current names, it's more a question of whether their road car divisions will suffer with the current names.
     
  22. Ardius

    Ardius

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    How is Lotus future marketeting plan and the future of Renault the tangible future?
    The marketing of Lotus on F1 cars and the amount of money they pay the Renault team are unlikely to increase substantially with a name change and you don't know if they would indeed leave without a name change.

    Renault's future does not depend solely on whether Lotus is around. Sure, if they leave it will be a big blow in sponsorship. But its not the end of the team and I'm pretty sure I remember Lotus and Renault announcing a multi-year sponsorship deal last year - one that presumably counts regardless of this naming dispute.
    If GL decided to pull out due to not being able to change the name, presumably Renault would have written a contract that forced some kind of compensation for pulling out of the contract early or not meeting the terms of the contract. If they haven't, then they are incredibly foolish to sign such a flakey sponsorship deal.

    Your argument is that the F1 Commission decision should be based on the here and now and not on the potential future of the team. Isn't that exactly what you are talking about with future marketing strategies and sponsorship plans? This name problem doesn't affect the current contracts in place (presumably, it would be pretty stupid for the parties involved to sign deals relying on such an outcome).
    The here and now is that both Renault and Team Lotus are currently fairly safe sponsorship wise and ownership wise for at least another season. So there is no pressing need to change the names of the teams, not for the survival of said teams.

    Not to mention, its not Sauber, HRT or Ferrari's problem if GL or Fernandes or whomever pulls out simply because they couldn't change their team's name to fit into their grand scheme. While they will obviously care that teams could potentially collapse, its not their fault that Fernandes or Boullier signed a silly contract or marketing plan stipulating a change of team name before they could get an agreement on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  23. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    No, I'm talking about making a decision based on the planned future, and not the potential future. If the F1 Commission were to say "No, you can't change your name because your parent companies and sponsors might collapse", then any team who ever wanted to change their name would be screwed because their parent companies and sponsors might collapse.
     
  24. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I don't see why future plans do not also come under "potential future".
     
  25. prisonermonkeys

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    Because they're something that the teams can directly influence. Their immediate future will be decided by whatever they decide to do. They will have much more influence over the direction of their teams over the next year or two than they will over the next five or ten.

    Your argument seems to be a case of "they shouldn't be allowed to change their name, because something might happen that will ruin them and force them to change their name again", but under that logic, something might happen to any of the teams and force them to change their name. So why shouldn't Renault and Fernandes be permitted to change their names?
     
  26. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I'm not arguing that the teams shouldn't be able to change the names. Nor am I arguing they should be able to.
    I honestly do not care at all what these teams are called.

    All I have stated is why I think the F1 Commission are perfectly right to be able to question this and even potentially refuse the name changes.

    The point you are trying to make is exactly the same as my point, only for some reason you seem to believe the F1 Commission/the other teams are wrong to refuse name changes for fear of the future - be that any more name changes, teams going under, "damage" to F1 or whatever.

    Whatever you term the "future" and how you view it, the point is that the F1 Commission is concerned with the implication constant name changes have on the sport and they most likely do not really care very much about Fernandes' and Group Lotus' future plans or their petty squabble - especially as in the eyes of most people this squabble ended months ago, at least regarding F1.
     
  27. prisonermonkeys

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    The latest bit of nonsense: Joe's Award reckons that Gerard Lopez will buy Lotus from Proton. Whether or not Bahar stays on does not matter; Lopez would ultimately be responsible for the team, which would apparently satisfy everyone except HRT, who are apparently looking at changing their name, too.

    How true this is remains to be seen. It is, after all, Joe Saward.
     
  28. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

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    Well, so far Saward hasn't failed much. And I read about Lopez and GL in autosport also, so it's definitely a well spread rumour
     
  29. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Renault - the car manufacturer - support planned name changes.
     
  30. RTSolvalou

    RTSolvalou (Banned)

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    So chassis name wise: Renault>Lotus & Lotus>Caterham
    But what of the team names for 2012, any word?
    I'm assuming Lotus Renault GP will 'have to' drop the Renault component, but Lotus GP sounds ordinary?