GT Sport physics thread

[Ian Fairbanks]

Suspension tuning has never been about having the stiffest springs are biggest sway bars, well unless the person saying so has no idea what they are on about.

Its always been about having the right balance of stiffness for the car and track conditions, not to mention the fact that stiffness is relative to the starting point of the car in question.

Its a good site, but none of its really revolutionary.

And yet, how many here knew about this? How many here were baffled by the “suspensions frequency” hertz bar? I’m glad I could shed light for so many here that likely had no clue.
Furthermore, that site lays it out in simple terms. When I learned all of this it was in a classroom and we had tests at the end of the day! It was NOT easy.

 

[CHEN255]

I read more and more gamers using that motion control now with gts. Is it realy that good ?

It certainly is! There is no way I'm going back to using the analog stick. I wish that all my racing games supported motion control.

 

[Scaff]

And yet, how many here knew about this? How many here were baffled by the “suspensions frequency” hertz bar? I’m glad I could shed light for so many here that likely had no clue.
Furthermore, that site lays it out in simple terms. When I learned all of this it was in a classroom and we had tests at the end of the day! It was NOT easy.

I don't disagree on that point.

The point I raised was that your post read as if stiffer is always wrong, when in many cases it may well be right. Which could lead some to believe that they should never stiffen any part of the suspension (I've also worked on real world tuning at a manufacturer level and been writing tuning guides for sims for a long time - people unfortunately can take these things literally - as its can be daunting and a 'simple rule' can appeal).

 

[Ian Fairbanks]

That’s true, I never thought about my post to be taken that way. In reality you should aim for the highest amount of hertz physically possible for the car before it starts becoming a pogo stick on course. For instance, some courses require softer suspension due to the high curbing or amount of undulating turns. Softer is not better but the stiffest is not always better either.

One other thing to remember, is that the facts I am spouting are not necessarily true for Gran Turismo, only for real life. For instance, in Forza the suspension tuning was completely out of whack and you could get a severely unfair advantage simply by lowering your shock bound all the way to nothing. In real life your car would never lift off the ground or recover after a turn.

 

[Scaff]

That’s true, I never thought about my post to be taken that way. In reality you should aim for the highest amount of hertz physically possible for the car before it starts becoming a pogo stick on course. For instance, some courses require softer suspension due to the high curbing or amount of undulating turns. Softer is not better but the stiffest is not always better either.

One other thing to remember, is that the facts I am spouting are not necessarily true for Gran Turismo, only for real life. For instance, in Forza the suspension tuning was completely out of whack and you could get a severely unfair advantage simply by lowering your shock bound all the way to nothing. In real life your car would never lift off the ground or recover after a turn.

Its been a similar story for every past GT title and I'm sure its not going to be long before people find similar exploits for GTS, as the physics engine certainly has its weaknesses.

 

[Haitauer]

Have tried to pinpoint whats wrong with the ffb. Just noticed front/rear weight transfer or suspension travel doesnt have any affect on ffb..

No difference in ffb what so ever if you accelerate or brake. Pretty sure thats why braking feels so numb..

 

[ScottPuss20]

Its been a similar story for every past GT title and I'm sure its not going to be long before people find similar exploits for GTS, as the physics engine certainly has its weaknesses.

Would you say that Project Cars 2 physics can be exploited?

 

[Scaff]

Would you say that Project Cars 2 physics can be exploited?

I'm not aware of anything specific that has been found yet.

The original had a camber issue that could be (and was patched), and none have been found that I'm aware of for AC either.

However both focus more on the physics engine at the expense of other areas, GT titles have always taken a different path.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'm not aware of anything specific that has been found yet.

The original had a camber issue that could be (and was patched), and none have been found that I'm aware of for AC either.

However both focus more on the physics engine at the expense of other areas, GT titles have always taken a different path.

That definitely shows in Assetto Corsa. It lacks polish; something which I look for in a game.

 

[Scaff]

That definitely shows in Assetto Corsa. It lacks polish; something which I look for in a game.

Is certainly not for everyone that's certain.

I can deal with it as the physics are the main draw for me (and the AI is actually rather good now), but that's a conversation for another thread.

Back to GTS and I'm afraid the tyre model appears (again) to have some issues with low speeds.



Annoying as the Copper Box build had seemed to resolve it from my time with it.

 

[Phoenixsui]

I love how the steering feels in GT1-GT Sport, but...
As i am a huge fan of oversteering and drifting i am annoyed that since GT5 it is not possible to drift propperly...
I mean comon the cars have like no tolerance around the point they lose grip. I hope they are going to improve it soon.
I drift with a Mustang and it feels not even close to what the Mustang does in GT Sport. Maybe it is also that you cant feel the car like in real but then i would love to see some improvements to have less agressiv grip loss.
In reality I have a lot more Time to countersteer. Especially when doing long drifts with high speeds it never turns me like in the game. The cars weight in reality helps to not turn it like in GT Sport.
Well i can only talk about streetcars, since i have never driven a real racecar. The closest to a Racecar was my Mustang with Slicks.

Edit: Also i often wonder how quick the cars flip with traction control off. Usualy when you get wheel spin it goes not directly on one or the other side with no control. First it goes straight and just spins the wheels or with only a little steering it takes its time to flip but not here. Here it is nothing or uncontrolable. Nothing between the extremes and that is what i wish would be changed.

p.s. Tested the GT-R yesterday for Gr.4 Race since it hhad all top 10 times and was wondering why...and lol it is a car for the braindead again with no possible oversteering. No matter how hard i run over gras or Track Limits. It just never goes sideways. All other Gr.4 Cars i testes so far were +-1 Sec in laptimes and all could oversteer when reckless on the Pedals. (Didnt test any FF Car, i dont like FF on Sportcars wtf...)

My english is not perfect i hope you guys understand Have a good day.

 

[Flaren89]

Now that they have fixed, we could test better the FFB. It's to say that while people say with controller the sensation, and generally also with steering wheel the overall handling, of the cars feels pretty similar, the steering wheel sensation itself is quite different from cars to cars, of the same category. Could test this by progressing in the "Track Experience" mode (missing now just Nordschleife and Rallys), where game makes you use different cars for each track.
Although here come a dilemma: while driving the Nissan GT-R GT3 Schulze Motorsport on Interlagos, the FFB felt somehow "reversed". Happening also to other people? Ok for the other cars.

Also, any guide on the car setup suggestions? Because being in habit with Assetto Corsa and rFactor 2 physics, I sincerely don't know which could be "base" settings from where to start to create a setup for my own, already those 2 other games are pretty different each other (rFactor 2 for some reason need much less camber, for example).

 

[SDSPOWER01]

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/news/00_4522498.html
Patch notes:

Main Features
- Fixed an issue where repeatedly deleting your email address from [Options] > [Email Address] would cause the game to crash;
- Fixed an issue where participating in a Drift Trial with a car featuring an exterior livery created with a custom color chip (a color chip created in the Livery editor) would result in the game crashing after the result screen;
- Fixed an issue where excessive force feedback was applied when understeering using the THRUSTMASTER® T500RS steering controller;
- Fixed -an issue wherein the THRUSTMASTER® TH8A 'H pattern shifter' was not properly recognized when connected to a compatible steering wheel controller.

Other improvements and adjustments
- The controller steering sensitivity of the DUALSHOCK®4 wireless controller has been increased in order to improve handling during oversteering and drifting;
- The adjustment range for a steering wheel controller's force feedback has been broadened: it is now possible to decrease maximum torque on steering wheels with strong motor torque.
- Various other issues have been addressed.

Thank you for your continued support and please continue to enjoy Gran Turismo Sport!

 

[JulesDennis]

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/news/00_4522498.html
Patch notes:

Main Features
- Fixed an issue where repeatedly deleting your email address from [Options] > [Email Address] would cause the game to crash;
- Fixed an issue where participating in a Drift Trial with a car featuring an exterior livery created with a custom color chip (a color chip created in the Livery editor) would result in the game crashing after the result screen;
- Fixed an issue where excessive force feedback was applied when understeering using the THRUSTMASTER® T500RS steering controller;
- Fixed -an issue wherein the THRUSTMASTER® TH8A 'H pattern shifter' was not properly recognized when connected to a compatible steering wheel controller.

Other improvements and adjustments
- The controller steering sensitivity of the DUALSHOCK®4 wireless controller has been increased in order to improve handling during oversteering and drifting;
- The adjustment range for a steering wheel controller's force feedback has been broadened: it is now possible to decrease maximum torque on steering wheels with strong motor torque.
- Various other issues have been addressed.

Thank you for your continued support and please continue to enjoy Gran Turismo Sport!

I dont get it.What all these have to do with GTS physics topic?

 

[Scalman2]

So best thing is to accept that this is game and drive it as those cars handle in game. The more i drive them , the more i love to drive those cars. And experimenting with more HP, less weight, lowering suspension or puting rear LSD
Then you find so much detail like on impreza wrx sti you can change front to rear 60/40 or change it to 50/50 and see how it goes or even make more to front.
And then lancer evo dont have those tuning stuff but it has others. As in real life they so different cars but both legendary 4wd. Game lets you feel that 4wd works so differently in them.
So its all comes to how much into cars handling physics devs went deep.
Like even mx5 put racing gearbox in it and then listen how gearbox is whining as you drive. And its handles again differently.
Another amazing thing is changing height of suspension. Make front lower then back and youll see how handling changes as you go into corners. But then every car still acts to it in different manner.
All those details i find in game just blows me away.
Never felt nothing like that in assetto.
Add 50hp ti mx5 and see how it changing car then add another 50hp and suddenly its beast goes fast into corners and out.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Iracing don t, perhaps this is why they have the best and more performant cockpit view in my opinion, now together with GT. Congrats to them for this.

Err What? GTS has by far the worst cockpit view in any racer I've played, bar none. It does a poor job of transmitting that you're in a race car and the rigidness when you make contact with anything is an immersion breaker, if GTS could immerse me in the first place.

I was not completely sold on the physics till I switched from my G29 to my T300RS GT. The latter wheel just portrays traction and tire slip far more effectively, to the point where you can almost tell exactly when you're on the limit or close to spinning out, since the internal belts in the wheel do this juddery hard tugging or pulling to one side feedback thing, which feels like tires sequentially skidding in one direction. That is essentially the cue to ease off or be gentler on the throttle.

Overall though, in my opinion Gran Turismo Sport has the best Sim physics available on consoles alongside Assetto Corsa. I find Forza a touch too erratic or overzealous, and Project Cars a touch unpredictable and also slightly wild or less planted. Both GTS and AC in contrast deliver far more nuanced, weighty, planted and realistic physics imo, that have better force feedback and communicate what the car is doing more effectively.

I do agree with some of the comments about sense of speed though. GTS really needs some motion blur and more camera shake or vibration options or something. It just doesn't feel quite as fast as PCars or Forza, and none of the sim racers come close to matching the sense of speed DRIVECLUB offers. Whatever magic Evo did with DC just makes for a far more thrilling visualisation of speed.

That's probably because Driveclub speeds might not be accurate to reality. Driveclub sense of speed is immense but always seams unrealistic when I play it. In theory if every game had the same FOV, accurate speed measurements, no added effects, and were driven at the same speed, then sense of speed should surely be the same.

 

[Phoenixsui]

All those details i find in game just blows me away.
.

Yes it is definitly well done overall. But i hate to not be able to switch TCS off without a accident in the next few corners. This is not real and way to agressiv. The cars handle without TCS as if they are all single turbo cars from 1980s.

A modern naturally aspirated car would never go sideways this fast if there is everything ok with it.
Everything before the grip is lost feels amazing

 

[98cwitr]

My man, http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html
Read that entire website. It’ll change the way you have previously built a car. No longer is it about the stiffest springs and the biggest sway bars. Hell, my autox car doesn’t even run bars anymore. And I reduced my spring stiffness, and raised the car an inch. Handles better than anything I’ve ever driven. And it’s all because of 3 little things; roll center, CG, and scrub radius.
Measure your corner weights, unsprung masses, and motion ratios, and then pick springs that put the front NF at 2.2 Hz and the rear at 2.5 Hz.

Well aware, and thank you for the link. What I am asking is whether a higher Hz equals stiffer springs, since it's the spring rates that are measured in Hz. Anyway, I'll test and see what the behavior is. Your link seems to suggest that those assumptions are correct. Thanks.

 

[praiano63]

GTS has by far the worst cockpit view in any racer I've played, bar none.

Perhaps the worst talking about motion but the more performant for sure. This is what i was talking about.
If a cockpit view is full of simulations effects like Gforce on the head of the pilot, jumps, vibrations..... It become also less easy to read the driving line and consequently it turn this view slower than the others.
If you want immersion only, you re right. If you want performance , you re not.
If this view now allow me to be fast with a certain level of immersion , so it is for me the best cockpit view , together with the Iracing one, who prioritize also the performance .

 

[PJTierney]

It certainly is! There is no way I'm going back to using the analog stick. I wish that all my racing games supported motion control.

Is steering still speed-sensitive when using Motion? When using the sticks if you're at higher speeds the car only steers about 70% in either direction (as indicated by the red dot showing steering angle).

I know why speed-sensitive steering exists (it's been a thing in racing games for decades) but am wondering if Motion can give you 1:1 steering at all speeds.

 

[Scalman2]

Yes it is definitly well done overall. But i hate to not be able to switch TCS off without a accident in the next few corners. This is not real and way to agressiv. The cars handle without TCS as if they are all single turbo cars from 1980s.

A modern naturally aspirated car would never go sideways this fast if there is everything ok with it.
Everything before the grip is lost feels amazing

Well i turn off tcs on all cars that i do in arcade racers and im handeling them ok .

 

[Flaren89]

I'm also having huge problems on keeping the car safe on TCS off/1. There is a major control reduction from 2 to 1 and while 2 is too much intrusive, with 1 I can't run 2 consecutive laps without spinning.
This mainly because of the low grip on low speed corners the physic of this game have.

 

[Ian Fairbanks]

It’s tough I’ll admit. It took me a whole day to get used to it. There needs to be a menu to sort out the linearity or the pedals so it takes more throw to accomplish the full brake effect.

 

[bobbie424242]

I really wish cockpit seat position could put much more forward. And optional 'look to apex' as found in some sims, for
better cornering. And a dash cam. And FOV adjustment. And optional camera shaking to improve immersion and sense of speed. Motion blur would be nice as well but not really compatible with maintaining 60 fps. And a toggle to disable the wheel. PD offers superbly detailed cockpits but not enough settings to enjoy them fully.

 

[Scalman2]

Anyone notice some changes in car handling after new 1.03 update?
For me it feels like something changed but cant tell what it is.

 

[f_399]

Anyone have issues with high hp cars and running it with no traction control?

Almost impossible to keep in a straight line, wasn't like that in GT6

 

[Scalman2]

What you call high hp cars? Porsche or sls amg high enough? They perfectly stable for me with ds4.
New update could messed up with some wheels so thats might be that.

 

[f_399]

What you call high hp cars? Porsche or sls amg high enough? They perfectly stable for me with ds4.
New update could messed up with some wheels so thats might be that.

Fully tuned:
Mclaren 650
Hellcat
Porsche GT3RS
Viper
Corvette
LaFerrari
.
.
.

Just try launching any of them, no driver aids, racing super soft, ... I can't keep it in straight line using DS4

 

[ConnorWolf]

I wanted to post a link to something I mentioned earlier about the weird physics at low speeds. This also has to do with how the auto-clutch works now, but starting in 2nd gear and downshifting to 1st was the only way to get gold on this test for me (without cheating.. TCS lol)

 

[f_399]

Interesting, too much wheel spin in 1st so you start in 2nd gear to get you rolling, then back to first.

Imagine that on a higher hp rwd. Thats probably the lowest hp rwd car in the game lol