GT4 physics and Group-C cars...

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dan0h

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Am I the only person here on GTPlanet that finds that GT4's physics engine has bitten off a lot more than it can chew with the big power Group-C cars? The minolta has no driving feel or feedback at all, and thats on a DFP rather than a DS2, truly, I hate to say this, but the simulation of this specification car is dire. Play GTR on the PC and you'll feel what I mean, the sensation the feedback the subtlety just isnt there.

I have to say that my experiences of GT4 have been getting worse the further I get into it, the final races of the Professional hall just make you want to give up, not so much for their difficulty, but just for the laughable nature of the physics that take place.

I really wanted to love GT4, and in many ways I do, but you can just tell that its the last legs that the PS2 can manage, its on the limits, and GT4 really is clutching at straws to keep it all together. The title GT4 should have been saved for the PS3, and what we know as GT4 should have been called something like GT3:Ultimate, or GT3:Final or something like that, because its not significantlly better to warrant a new number all its own... :(
 
I have to say I absolutely agree with you about the group-c cars not being fun (or authentic perhaps?) to drive, but I'm not sure you can attribute it to the physics (alone). I enjoy driving road cars alot in GT4 and they feel quite right when compared to the better sims for the PC (LFS,netKar etc.), even though every game his it's own feel and driving style for the same type of car. I don't enjoy driving group-c and formula 1 cars in GT4 because it feels like I'm playing a game instead of driving a car.
 
dan0h
...The Minolta has no driving feel or feedback at all...
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There's no doubt that the Minolta Toyota is the very worst case of what you're talking about. That car is just all effed up. Its glued to the track. Its the biggest joke in the game.

But are all of the Le Mans cars this bad? I'd say not at all. We have to remember how fast the real cars are. How many of us have taken an Audi R8 around a track? Who among us can tell us for sure what it should feel like?

Before we condemn them all as being "arcade cars", maybe we should try to get a handle on what the real ones are like. I compare driving them in GT4 with the in-cockpit view of the real cars on TV, and it doesn't seem that far off to me.

No, they don't feel anything like production cars. Do any of us think they should? Come on, these suckers are fast! So fast, in fact, that they do this:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR1.html

And how far off is the Formula GT car, really? Have you really watched in-cockpit footage of F1 cars in action? Have you looked hard at what they do as they slice through esses? The real cars actually do seem to defy all the laws of physics. Should the GT4 version feel like a stock Impreza?

Are GT4's physics that far off, or are we underestimating what the real cars are like?
 
Just go out and buy a copy of "In car 956", with Derek Bell taking a Porsche 956 around various tracks, including the 'ring and Le Mans, in comparison with that it seems to me that given the limits of the PS2 they have done a damn good job.

Now the feel of the cars is most likely not perfect, but as has been said who here has driven a car of this nature. Now when Evo did a pieve on laping the 'ring in a group C car, they were very complimentary of the general feel that the game had managed to capture, and as these guys once test drove the Bentley Speed 8, they should have some basis to make that statement from.
 
wfooshee
AMEN!!!! Preach on, brother!!!
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Exactly guys, not too mention these cars are designed to defy the laws of physics.
Look at it this way, they use the same technology as airplanes which defy physics, and apply it upside down, now you non believers do the math. Granted everyone is saying it seems like they are sticking way too much, but as mentioned before who of us has actually driven these cars. Also F1 drivers average over 100mph, i think it is around 105mph in qualifying, on monaco which is in gt4 and the track is 2.1miles or about that so now we can figure out a time and see how it matches up to in game times. Which would give you a time of about 1:23 a lap so run some laps and check the desparity.
 
Superhero Wally
Exactly guys, not too mention these cars are designed to defy the laws of physics.
Look at it this way, they use the same technology as airplanes which defy physics, and apply it upside down, now you non believers do the math. Granted everyone is saying it seems like they are sticking way too much, but as mentioned before who of us has actually driven these cars. Also F1 drivers average over 100mph, i think it is around 105mph in qualifying, on monaco which is in gt4 and the track is 2.1miles or about that so now we can figure out a time and see how it matches up to in game times. Which would give you a time of about 1:23 a lap so run some laps and check the desparity.
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Current F1 cars are running "mid-teens" around Monaco...discounting the '05 tire and aero rule changes. That's about what people are putting up on the "Leaderboards" here.

Lap record at Suzuka is Ruben's 1:32.730 (most likely an in race time)...I just did a 1:28.875. But I don't have to deal with the "fear factor". It took several hours to "find the limits", which included more than a lot of "offs" which can't be replicated in the real world. If I just drive carefully, I'd be in the 1:30.xxx all day, which is probably what an F1 "qualifying lap" would be.
 
In GT4 you don't have weather. Perfect racing conditions, how often do you see perfect racing conditions in real life with no wind/rain/bird poo on the track?
 
smellysocks12
In GT4 you don't have weather. Perfect racing conditions, how often do you see perfect racing conditions in real life with no wind/rain/bird poo on the track?
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this is also something to keep in consideration...
 
My theory is that the visual- and aural-only simulation of GT4 falls apart at a certain level. Once cars get past a certain threshold of acceleration the body expects to feel the acceleration in the back of the seat, in the vestibular system, in the peripheral vision whishing by through the side windows. Suspension of disbelief is much easier with road cars, imo, and that's why they're more pleasant to drive even if the physics/lap time correlations are solid.
 
for the people that are "preaching" that the physics are real, and the comaprison to real life drivers is so close...I have a couple points....a few really. Here goes my rant....
1. the clkgtr flipping at lemans....can't replicate that in the game. real physics?
2. you can't break the rear wheels lose on any car and redline the engine mid-corner and the car just stays straight. it doesn't happen. You would be looking at the guy behind you then you'd get a long walk back to the pits.
3. the whole in-car camera looking like you playing the game. Do you really think driving the real cars around the track, and being able to replicate that time in the game is solid proof that this game is so brutally realistic? The guys on the tv know exaclty what they are doing, they aren't going to make a mistake that shows the physics are different. Those mistake cost alot of money in real life. See #2. Derek bell isn't going to do that. if you want Tv evidence of number 2....just off the top of my head....check out the parade lap for the 1994 indy 500. Roberto guerrero spun the rear wheels coming off turn 2. Crashed out of the pole before the race started. That was an example of breaking the rear wheels lose and it spinning around to fast to correct.
4. just because a driver says "its pretty realistic" isn't gospel. I was around when an indycar driver i know first raced "indianapolis 500" for PC. he said "yeah, its pretty realistic." and that was back in like 94, so i'm sure Gt4's physics are better. I have more along these lines...
5. and if the physics are so real....have joe video game player go out and try to come close to his times in a real car he reaches on this game. GOOD LUCK

all that being said, the physics are decent and the game is alot of fun. under normal driving the physics are correct. where they start to deviate from reality is at the extremes. The reason i have a problem with the physics is because they talk about how real they are. They are good, i commend them, but when they aren't very realistic and they still say they are i am disappointed.
 
the real 6c
1. the clkgtr flipping at lemans....can't replicate that in the game. real physics?
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Check the link again. The flipping car is the CLR, not the car that's in GT4. How can it be replicated in the game if it isn't even in the game?

2. you can't break the rear wheels loose on any car and redline the engine mid-corner and the car just stays straight. it doesn't happen. You would be looking at the guy behind you then you'd get a long walk back to the pits.
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You're using tons of ASM, aren't you? Turn it off and you'll be looking at those guys behind you, all right.

3. the whole in-car camera looking like you playing the game. Do you really think driving the real cars around the track, and being able to replicate that time in the game is solid proof that this game is so brutally realistic?
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What are you talking about? Nobody ever said it was "proof" of "brutal realism". We're saying they've got the track speeds right, unlike the ridiculous speeds you get in the arcade games. For a game to be a "simulation" of the real thing, the speeds have to be close to realistic, and GT4's speeds are pretty darned close.

...check out the parade lap for the 1994 indy 500. Roberto Guerrero spun the rear wheels coming off turn 2. Crashed out of the pole before the race started. That was an example of breaking the rear wheels lose and it spinning around to fast to correct.
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Man, you really don't know about ASM, do you? Tell you what: Get in the most powerful Le Mans car you have. Put R1 superhard tires on the rear. Enter one of the Sarthe enduros. You'll see a red toolbox icon. Click on it. Navigate to "Driving Aids", and set both ASM scales to zero. Set TCS to zero. Now start the race. Note your cold, blue tires, which perfectly simulate the cold tires Guerrero was driving on back in Indy on that unseasonably cold Memorial Day weekend. As you attempt to round the first turn, stomp the throttle hard. Any questions?


4. just because a driver says "its pretty realistic" isn't gospel. I was around when an indycar driver i know first raced "indianapolis 500" for PC. he said "yeah, its pretty realistic." and that was back in like 94, so i'm sure Gt4's physics are better. I have more along these lines...
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So if a race driver endorses the realism of a sim game, it somehow means nothing? Huh? What? And what "more along these lines" do you have for us?


5. and if the physics are so real....have joe video game player go out and try to come close to his times in a real car he reaches on this game.
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Like anybody has said we could! Where did this come from? It's a frickin' GAME, not real life. Who said it would put the Jim Russell driving school out of business!?

Geez, now I've got a headache. That was a tough post to wade through...
 
smellysocks12
In GT4 you don't have weather. Perfect racing conditions, how often do you see perfect racing conditions in real life with no wind/rain/bird poo on the track?
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I agree. Sometimes, races come down to nothing more than bird poop on the track, everyone knows that.
But I agree with everyone who said they hate driving the Class C race cars and would rather drive around in Civic or Evo all day. But isn't that what GT4 really tried to acheive here? Everyones preferences were takin into consideration when building the game, thats obvious, or they wouldn't have everything from D1 cars, to classic oldies. No one said you HAVE to finish the game 100%, just enjoy it for what it is, and what it allows you too do.
Just my 2 cents.
 
I am not a fan of racing Group G \LMP cars. They seem to bee too responsive due the limited feeling available when sat with a DFP. Ie; no peripheral vision and no G forces. At the end of the day even the most accurate simulation will have it's shortcomings (and i make no claim of GT4 being THE most accurate).
Also how many GT4 playerys are there in the world? Quite alot i can safely say and i reckon that the vast majority of them are capable of fast lap times in an LMP car. If GT4 (or any racing 'simulation') was that accurate then why isn't every ****** who plays them a LeMans driver?

Having said that i will go back to what Zardoz stated, we are not in a position to judge realism unless we have actually experienced it IRL.
what helps road cars stay realistic feeling in GT4 (to me at least) is the suspension travel with the bumper cam how you get an impression of the car diving under braking and leaning back under acceleration. In an LMP the cannot exist due to them having such stiff suspension with almost no travel.
 
has anyone here driven a Group C car?........ no?.... didn't think so. How do you know its unrealistic.

I've driven a formula ford before and well, it feels similar to the F1 in GT (in handling) but in the game you dont feel the G force and dont **** your pants while cornering at 200+ km/h.

plus the game only simulates perfect conditions..... so its a bit brash to come out with comments of lack of realism when you don't even have anything to compare it to.
 
Drive the Group Cs with stock power and no driving assists and they should drive realistically. Especially at Le Mans.

However, if we were to take GT4's Lister, and compare it to GTR's Lister, the difference in physics is night and day. Even with no driving assists, GT4's Lister is very easy to drive around Nurburgring, with little caution of steering input. If you try to enter corners at similar speeds in a Lister in GTR like you would in GT4, you're going off.

So that said, this leads me to wonder how many other cars in GT4 are fairly unrealistic, as they (assumably) use the same physics engine as the Lister Storm...Nonetheless, GT4 has a superb realism/number of cars ratio.
 
Only one more thing.
Considering the limitations of the PS2, GT4 is as outstanding “simulation” of real life.
And there is no way to make a perfect simulation of a vehicle, even with the most powerful PC we have today.
 
one more good point how do you people know how one of those C-class racing cars even handle in real life so stop whinning if these people who are claming to driving in these racing cars and say that their close to GT4 might as well say congrats to the dev team for working their butts of to get this game even done. So enjoy you game and stop whining these cars were designed to have maximum grip anyway.
 
lol i like the race cars. when you get in the zone, braking perfectly, swooping through the corners, bettering your lap times, trying not to make a mistake while everythings flying by you/ whats to complain about? take some time to try out different settings. the cars are adjustable.

going that fast in real life would feel like a game. watching f1 on the onboard cam looks like a game.
the audi r8 supposedly drives itself in real life. its full of computers.
 
Nice to see that some people do agree with me, and for the rest of you, with your hilarious, "Have you driven a group-C car comments"... Of course not, obviously no-one on this forum has driven a Group-C car, but I bet you KY and his team didnt either...

I've been in motorsport for 9 years and I've driven more than enough cars (2xSaloon2000 Class Cars, 1970's Merlin Formula Ford, Venturi LM 600) on test days and shake-downs to know that a group-C car sure doesnt feel like that.

GT4 is a toy, play GTR and you can feel that immediately, hell, play Enthusia and you can feel the immediate differences in physics.

The other hilarious thing is the sound, the Minolta sounds like it has a terminal misfire when you get to high RPM, thats how nicely made the game is, they dont even give a crap about the final detailing like this. Poor.

Yes the road cars feel ok, but their not right, you cannot feel tangible tyre-dynamics at work.

If you want to believe thats how a Group-C car, or any car for that matter, actually drives, then good luck to you. You'll get a serious shock the day you really do drive a real track car.
 
Superhero Wally
Exactly guys, not too mention these cars are designed to defy the laws of physics.
Look at it this way, they use the same technology as airplanes which defy physics, and apply it upside down, now you non believers do the math.
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No, no, no, that's utterly and totally wrong. Nothing defies physics laws (in that case we should rewrite them, which is possible, but don’t happens every day...), when people say "defying physic laws" they should say "taking advantage of physic laws". Now, I understand very well what you mean, but, won't be just better to express yourself correctly?
 
dan0h
...If you want to believe thats how a Group-C car, or any car for that matter, actually drives, then good luck to you. You'll get a serious shock the day you really do drive a real track car.
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No, we wouldn't get a "shock" at all.

Come on, nobody thinks this fifty-dollar game, running on a $150 device, using a $150 controller, with the player sitting in his living room in an upholstered chair, is going to faithfully reproduce the experience of driving an Audi R8. You'd have to have some sort of multi-million-dollar NASA-quality simulator to do that, obviously.

All anybody has said is that, given all the limitations, PD has brought millions of us closer to the actual experience than we will ever get. Nobody has said the game perfectly simulates reality, because we all know it can't.

But its a plenty good enough sim for what it is. Future sims will be even better, and I look forward to them.
 
To make a real driving simulator, you'd need to simulate everything, from the pistons in the cylinders to the pebbles on the track. Now? Good luck. In ten years? Probably.
 
I just watched the Spanish Grand Prix this morning, carefully observing the in-car shots and watching the cars in the normal camera views all over the track.

I then fired up GT4 and got in the Formula GT car. I entered the Twin Ring Motegi road course race in B-Spec, and cycled through all the views, observing carefully and comparing it to what I had just seen.

PD has done a very good job of getting the speed and overall look and feel correct. The B-Spec views looked damned good to me. The real cars are crazy fast, and so is the Formula GT.

Does the Formula GT handle exactly like a Renault F1 car? Of course it doesn't, but not one person who has posted a response on this thread is qualified in any way to tell us how good or bad it is. Until we can hear it from an F1 driver, we'll never know.
 
GT4 is a very smartly designed simulation. There are too many aspects of driving that cannot be simulated with just a TV, stereo system, and a steering wheel setup. In real life, the movements and sounds of the car relay valuable information, and we drive accordingly. I don't want to spin out because of something that I would have easily been able to react to in an actual car.
 
Zardoz
Does the Formula GT handle exactly like a Renault F1 car? Of course it doesn't, but not one person who has posted a response on this thread is qualified in any way to tell us how good or bad it is. Until we can hear it from an F1 driver, we'll never know.
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Of course the Formula GT doesn't handle like a Renault F1 car, or any other F1 car for that matter. Thats because the Formula wasn't modelled from an F1 car, it was modelled from a Japanese Grand Prix car.

Anyways, back to the point at hand here, I am quite surprised that only two people in this thread have mentioned the most vital piece of this dilemma. The PS2 does not have unlimited processing power, in fact, it is quite limited in that area. The PS2 has a 300MHz RISC and 32MB RAM, while the minimum specifications for GTR specifies a minimum of 1.2GHz and 384MB RAM. OF COURSE GTR will have better physics. Given the limitations of the PS2 and considering how much processing power the graphics eat up, GT4 has very good physics.
 

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