GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]
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- FoolKiller1979
I got Forza in from Gamefly last night and only had time for two hours, but my initial thought on the game thus far is, "Nice try, kid. Come back when you are serious."
I felt like it was PGR with a career mode thrown in for good measure. Of course the career mode screens bothered me because it looked just like the arcade mode. The PGR feel was also increased by the racing line aid it would provide. When following the braking suggestions on the line I found myself sliding through the curves. While that is fun it won't win in an evenly matched race. I turned off teh line and began to focus on proper braking into the curve and accelerating through and out of it. I turned what was a head-to-head race into a 5 second difference.
Then when I had to select which region was to be my home region I was confused to find that North America doesn't get the Mazda3 to start. I'm actually shopping for a Mazda3 and they are as easy to find as the Focus with very little difference in price. In fact, many dealerships practically have them side by side.
I understand car availability opens up as you go along, but that isn't very sim is it? In fact the whole unlocking races and cars as you win and earn money bothered me. I didn't like unlocking endurance and extreme in GT4 either. The license tests were a nicely integrated way to ensure that you can't just jump into the tough races, even though a few things still had to be unlocked.
I guess the unlocking things in Forza made Career Mode seem no different than a career mode in NASCAR games.
As for graphics: the cars seem like they are made of shiney plastic. I liked the crowds and environments but the cars and the physics just didn't look/feel right to me.
Anyway, I will give it some more time to impress me tonight but if it doesn't then back it goes so that Enthusia will come in. It's sad that it will probably go back in two days considering that I was expecting a week but it is annoying me so much as it is that I almost sent it back today.
As I said, "Nice try, Kid. Come back when you're serious."
On a side note: It does have Road Atlanta, which I love. It's got me itching for Petite LeMans. Put Road Atlanta in GT and I will never play another racing sim. My allegiance will then be unconditional.
I felt like it was PGR with a career mode thrown in for good measure. Of course the career mode screens bothered me because it looked just like the arcade mode. The PGR feel was also increased by the racing line aid it would provide. When following the braking suggestions on the line I found myself sliding through the curves. While that is fun it won't win in an evenly matched race. I turned off teh line and began to focus on proper braking into the curve and accelerating through and out of it. I turned what was a head-to-head race into a 5 second difference.
Then when I had to select which region was to be my home region I was confused to find that North America doesn't get the Mazda3 to start. I'm actually shopping for a Mazda3 and they are as easy to find as the Focus with very little difference in price. In fact, many dealerships practically have them side by side.
I understand car availability opens up as you go along, but that isn't very sim is it? In fact the whole unlocking races and cars as you win and earn money bothered me. I didn't like unlocking endurance and extreme in GT4 either. The license tests were a nicely integrated way to ensure that you can't just jump into the tough races, even though a few things still had to be unlocked.
I guess the unlocking things in Forza made Career Mode seem no different than a career mode in NASCAR games.
As for graphics: the cars seem like they are made of shiney plastic. I liked the crowds and environments but the cars and the physics just didn't look/feel right to me.
Anyway, I will give it some more time to impress me tonight but if it doesn't then back it goes so that Enthusia will come in. It's sad that it will probably go back in two days considering that I was expecting a week but it is annoying me so much as it is that I almost sent it back today.
As I said, "Nice try, Kid. Come back when you're serious."
On a side note: It does have Road Atlanta, which I love. It's got me itching for Petite LeMans. Put Road Atlanta in GT and I will never play another racing sim. My allegiance will then be unconditional.
McLaren F1GTR
gran turismo vision pic 1
gran turismo vision pic 2
well its not GT5, but you can already see what direction they will go in for PS3.
Full grid, and look at all that action in the pits!
I cant wait for all next gen systems....I would say that GT5 will look incredibly close to photo realistic . I mean hell if they can make GT4 look as good as it does on PS2, GT5 should pretty much look like the real deal.
McLaren
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flynn
There's no confirmation that that is GT5. And that still isn't in different looking from GT4. Its just GT4 with more cars and better pit details.
We still don't know anything about physics. Even with that video, all it does is put Forza and GT's pits and number of cars down. Nothing else.
I do agree on GT5. I mean, if GT4 is pushing PS2 to its limits, imagine what the limits of the PS3 will do!
McLaren F1GTR
think you need to read my post again
I stated that it was NOT gt5, and I was simply showing the pics to show the direction they are going. And if you have seen any of the other games that are in production for PS3 you would know that the screen shots I have posted are probably 1/1000 th of what the game will look like in terms of level of detail and quality. As far as physics go I really have no major complaints with GT4 for them to impove apon...(though it would be cool to have more wheel spin
)and yeah games on all next gen systems should be amazing.....and if history repeats itself...I will get them all
- 2,461
flynnthink you need to read my post again
I stated that it was NOT gt5, and I was simply showing the pics to show the direction they are going. And if you have seen any of the other games that are in production for PS3 you would know that the screen shots I have posted are probably 1/1000 th of what the game will look like in terms of level of detail and quality. As far as physics go I really have no major complaints with GT4 for them to impove apon...(though it would be cool to have more wheel spin
and yeah games on all next gen systems should be amazing.....and if history repeats itself...I will get them all
oh fo sho.
I mean, look at the trailers for PGR3 and Motor Storm. INSANE graphics. Now imagine GT5. I'm gonna need new pants.
- 91
I think I mentioned this before, but I believe Forza was unfinished. MS HAD to release it because if they had given it the two or three more months it needed in development (which would've put it out around August), alot of people would've skipped over it because they would too busy salivating over the XBox 360 and PGR3. Forza's got, what, five months to shine? That's why I think Forza's sound, physics, and graphics are the way they are... 
On a related note regarding the whole "GT4 vs. Forza" debate, 'Game Informer' hit the nail on the head:
"Where Gran Turismo 4 is about the cars as usable pieces of art and history, Forza is about almost everything else... Forza is certainly not a jack-of-all trades in the bad sense, but instead, a racer that does a lot more than any other and is good, but not great, at most of those ideas. If there's an overall problem with Forza, it's that the game isn't polished into the slick experience that others have recently offered."
2nd opinion, same article:
"...But it lacks a spark that makes you want to push the envelope and leave rubber on every track..." -'Game Informer; June 2005'
On a related note regarding the whole "GT4 vs. Forza" debate, 'Game Informer' hit the nail on the head:
"Where Gran Turismo 4 is about the cars as usable pieces of art and history, Forza is about almost everything else... Forza is certainly not a jack-of-all trades in the bad sense, but instead, a racer that does a lot more than any other and is good, but not great, at most of those ideas. If there's an overall problem with Forza, it's that the game isn't polished into the slick experience that others have recently offered."
2nd opinion, same article:
"...But it lacks a spark that makes you want to push the envelope and leave rubber on every track..." -'Game Informer; June 2005'
- 2,461
WeAreN1njaI think I mentioned this before, but I believe Forza was unfinished. MS HAD to release it because if they had given it the two or three more months it needed in development (which would've put it out around August), alot of people would've skipped over it because they would too busy salivating over the XBox 360 and PGR3. Forza's got, what, five months to shine? That's why I think Forza's sound, physics, and graphics are the way they are...
On a related note regarding the whole "GT4 vs. Forza" debate, 'Game Informer' hit the nail on the head:
"Where Gran Turismo 4 is about the cars as usable pieces of art and history, Forza is about almost everything else... Forza is certainly not a jack-of-all trades in the bad sense, but instead, a racer that does a lot more than any other and is good, but not great, at most of those ideas. If there's an overall problem with Forza, it's that the game isn't polished into the slick experience that others have recently offered."
2nd opinion, same article:
"...But it lacks a spark that makes you want to push the envelope and leave rubber on every track..." -'Game Informer; June 2005'
that's a good summary. 👍
p.s. PGR3 trailer. everyone watch it. the Lamborghini exhaust note is to die for.
194GVan
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- retrohoon
- ratr0
im not sorting through 250+ pages to see if this was brought up but...
if GT4 is such a good sim, then why do you have to tune your suspension to be harder in the front and softer in the rear to have lots of oversteer? IRL you would do the exact opposite.
if GT4 is such a good sim, then why do you have to tune your suspension to be harder in the front and softer in the rear to have lots of oversteer? IRL you would do the exact opposite.
- 3,802
Ha. What happens if you emulate a ps2 on a pc, does it go all arcadey then? Now I'm gonna do you a favour here, so listen up. This is how you make a game look realistic when you have no power, step one, textures, step two, lighting. There. That's it. It's nothing to do with the PS2's uber simulation qualities, it's to do with the fact that PD are damn good artists. The forza guys put some nice effects etc in, but the game has no real style to it.
Xpos? Wtf, are you 13?
code_kev
well though I dont agree with what the other guy was saying.....even if you were to emulate ps2 on a pc it would look like whatever your api/gpu would tell it to look like (and that would most likey never look like the ps2 hardware). API/GPU dicate what the final image will look like just as much as the artist's original models, texures, and lighting would. for a small example, if you take a look at ATI compared to NVIDIA they both handle surface smoothing completly differnt...hence they look different. They also handle specular, diffuse, ambient lighting their "own way" as well.
If you have ever emulated 3d games before (psx, n64, namco arcade board, etc) you would know that they look nothing like the original console/arcade machine. So emulation might not have been the best example in terms of retaining a look of a real time ps2 render
I think one of the more impressive things about the ps2 is the fact that even with lower polys and texures it can squeeze out a natural look with less. As far as it being the most realistic , I think thats really a matter of opinion (and the game)
Overall I give Xbox the edge..but mostly cause it has the most native 480P+ titles....and looks much better on HDTV imo. But I will say this, I have yet to see an xbox racing game (or any other racing game) look as natural as GT. And I DO think a lot of that has to do with the way PS2's hardware handles lighting. After all look how close Enthusia looks to GT4
- 91
flynn[Insert lots of big, computer-y terms and prhases that I didn't quite understand here...] I think one of the more impressive things about the ps2 is the fact that even with lower polys and texures it can squeeze out a natural look with less. As far as it being the most realistic , I think thats really a matter of opinion (and the game)...
I've noticed that too. some Xbox titles (I don't have HDTV so it might just occur on "regular" tv's) have a plasticky, "false" look to them; especially some of the multi-platform games. My brother calls it the "Xbox feel"... I thought we were the only ones who noticed it.
- 3,802
Really people, it's the devs, nothing more, nothing less. They simply know how to make low polys and crap textures look good, it's all about getting it just right, and they do. You could probably make GT4 on the xbox, and it would look the same (or at least VERY VERY VERY similar, taking in to account how it renders stuff in different ways, something I forgot about hehe).
- 2,461
WeAreN1nja
so what would the ps2 "feel" be exactly? shimmery, jaggy blurry mess? oh, but character models with less detail and ****e textures look more reeeeeeeal.
compare multiformat games that have the same artwork assets and the xbox version usually "feels" more real. example: ghost recon 2.
but this discovery you and your brother made is probably due to the fact that japanese developers almost always have better artwork, while lots of western devs go for technological wow factor. either way it makes for pretty games.
play final fantasy X-2 then play Jade Empire. both are gorgeous, but they do it differently. FF has great facial animation and character designs, jade empire uses the green box's grunt to make lush environments and nifty effects.
code_kev
I hear what you are saying..but not sure you are 100% correct. Not trying to down play the devs role in the final look of the game (well I would be down playing myself
) But the hardware and API of the console play an important part in the look of the final image.I render in a bunch of differnt apps... 3dsmax, lightwave, maya etc . And I can tell you that they all look completly different (unless you are using a third party renderer like mental ray)....for example it is really hard to get the look of a lightwave render with 3dsmax. Same goes for consoles. I doubt you could ever get GT4 to look the same on xbox...simply because xbox does not diffuse light in the same way as ps2...and there really isnt crap the dev's can do to try and work around it. Maybe they could do some hardware emulation in xbox software to try and "look" like PS2..but firstly that would be some pretty insane reverse engineering of the PS2 API and hardware, and second it would be wasted processing power (to the point of a crawl I would assume). Not sure if I am explaining it right...its also a hard concept for people who dont work in 3d to grasp...but how the hardware renders plays a huge part in the final image.Try to understand that just cause all these platforms have the same basic technology (meshes, virtual lights, virtual cameras, texures, phong shading, etc) they all interrpert them completly different.
kinigitt
I agree Xbox can push more polys and has higher rez texures....and in most cases I like playing on my xbox over PS2......But there is something to be said for the PS2 render..... it does have a natural feel with the way it handles colors and lights. And I think in this area (IMO) it is better than xbox. I agree the jaggies on the PS2 are just nasty, and I really wish they upped the vram.
WeAreN1nja
hehe your brother is not alone...the Xbox harware has a tendency to make objects look like plastic....very cool looking plastic, but plastic none the less. This is caused by how the Xbox handles specular lighting (the white spot on a shiney ball)
here was an image I modified to help illustrate the problem with the way Xbox handles lighting
With that being said, Xbox can also handle huge texures..so games that have huge landscapes for example look really rich on xbox.
Its always a trade off with hardware.....to make more accurate lighting means less polys can be used on frame at the same time...as well as texures....and viceversa.
Its really up to the people who design the hardware to make the choice of where the precious cycles go. But its clear that Sony went for more accurate lighting at the cost of jaggies and lower poly counts. And Microsoft downplayed accurate lighting to get more polys on the screen as well as higher rez texures (not to mention more pixels in general for HDTV applications)
At the end of the day both platforms have good and bad points....I just have to give props to PD for exploiting all the good points of PS2 👍 👍
- 2,461
flynnhehe your brother is not alone...the Xbox harware has a tendency to make objects look like plastic....very cool looking plastic, but plastic none the less. This is caused by how the Xbox handles specular lighting (the white spot on a shiney ball)
here was an image I modified to help illustrate the problem with the way Xbox handles lighting
With that being said, Xbox can also handle huge texures..so games that have huge landscapes for example look really rich on xbox.
Its always a trade off with hardware.....to make more accurate lighting means less polys can be used on frame at the same time...as well as ltexures....and viceversa.
Its really up to the people who design the hardware to make the choice of where the precious cycles go. But its clear that Sony went for more accurate lighting at the cost of jaggies and lower poly counts. And xbox downplayed accurate lighting to get more polys on the screen as well as higher rez texures (not to mention more pixels in general for HDTV applications)
At they end of the day both platforms have good and bad points....I just have to give props to PD for exploiting all the good points of PS2 👍 👍
👍
- 91
^^Agreed. Very well put and great example. 👍
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- JMarine25
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages... Gran Turismo 4 was reviewed with a 5 out of 5 rating back early last month by G4 show "X-Play." Now the same duo of Adam Sessler and Morgan Webb finally reviewed Forza Motorsport. Allow me to analyze highlights of the review:
=====
FORZA MOTORSPORT REVIEW HIGHLIGHTS
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* over 200 licensed cars
* more money = more tuning!
* upgrade with paint, decals, body kits, etc
* online play rules over juggernaut Gran Turismo 4
* is there ANYTHING bad about the game? (maybe) music.
* what could be, might be, the best racing game of the year
-
AFTER REVIEW
* (Morgan) Every bit as good as GT4, only with online play and damage
* (Adam) Most frustrating element of GT4- difficulty; Forza's racing line is there to help you out in the turns.
* (Adam) dumbest title for a game since "Enthusia Professional Racing!"
=====
-end
So there you have it. GT4- out in stores. Forza- out in stores. X-Play likes both games. Gamespot reviews Forza, saying it's better than GT4. EGM says it's better than GT4. But who's opinion REALLY matters? Yours.
Oh, and let me make one confession about Forza before I close this post. I basically think that the XBOX now has a legitimate racing game title that really challenges Gran Turismo. I'm still convinced about GT4, and not looking to buy an XBOX and get Forza to go with it. However, you XBOX racers should be very proud to have a game like Forza Motorsport released in stores, available to buy, and probably even more available to love and enjoy. You want online and damage and certain other manufacturers, get this game now. Okay people, SOUND OFF!
=====
FORZA MOTORSPORT REVIEW HIGHLIGHTS
=====
* over 200 licensed cars
* more money = more tuning!
* upgrade with paint, decals, body kits, etc
* online play rules over juggernaut Gran Turismo 4
* is there ANYTHING bad about the game? (maybe) music.
* what could be, might be, the best racing game of the year
-
AFTER REVIEW
* (Morgan) Every bit as good as GT4, only with online play and damage
* (Adam) Most frustrating element of GT4- difficulty; Forza's racing line is there to help you out in the turns.
* (Adam) dumbest title for a game since "Enthusia Professional Racing!"
=====
-end
So there you have it. GT4- out in stores. Forza- out in stores. X-Play likes both games. Gamespot reviews Forza, saying it's better than GT4. EGM says it's better than GT4. But who's opinion REALLY matters? Yours.
Oh, and let me make one confession about Forza before I close this post. I basically think that the XBOX now has a legitimate racing game title that really challenges Gran Turismo. I'm still convinced about GT4, and not looking to buy an XBOX and get Forza to go with it. However, you XBOX racers should be very proud to have a game like Forza Motorsport released in stores, available to buy, and probably even more available to love and enjoy. You want online and damage and certain other manufacturers, get this game now. Okay people, SOUND OFF!
