GT4 vs REAL - An investigation of times

[Wolfe]

Concerning the "fear factor," there is a way to at least somewhat evoke similar feelings when driving on a simulator -- while doing hotlapping (preferably on a long course like the Nurburgring), pause and restart the session every time you hit a wall, spin out, or put more than 2 wheels off-pavement.

 

[Mr Deap]

Someone posted something interesting In the enthusia video thread.

Here the link.
http://videos.streetfire.net/recentvideos/1/2ACFF8C6-AB2D-4660-A412-238B69C76B3F.htm

Something that GT4 cannot do for sure.

 

[guska]

Concerning the "fear factor," there is a way to at least somewhat evoke similar feelings when driving on a simulator -- while doing hotlapping (preferably on a long course like the Nurburgring), pause and restart the session every time you hit a wall, spin out, or put more than 2 wheels off-pavement.

Hmm, not such a bad idea, it gets you in the mind set of "oh god not ANOTHER pause!

 

[Wolfe]

Someone posted something interesting In the enthusia video thread.

Here the link.
http://videos.streetfire.net/recentvideos/1/2ACFF8C6-AB2D-4660-A412-238B69C76B3F.htm

Something that GT4 cannot do for sure.

I like Enthusia and all, but I don't really see what that video proves...

 

[Gabkicks]

yeah... if i remember correctly you can fling fwd,rwd and awd cars around like that in gt4 as well...

 

[niky]

true. Take it from someone who's tried. The difference is, GT4 makes you work much harder to break traction.

 

[Scaff]

I like Enthusia and all, but I don't really see what that video proves...

I was thinking exactly the same thing, its a well put together little vid but I don't personally see what it brings to this conversation.

Scaff

 

[Dave_George]

Hi,

Just a quick note to say I have uploaded 4 of my replay files from the comparison laps to the first post in this thread for anyone who might be interested in downloading and viewing them:tup:

There are a couple more on the site (Link in my sig) and more to follow as I get time.

Thanks again for the comments throughout this thread, great to see that my work was appreciated if even just for a quick read, it also gives me the encouragement to perhaps try something else in the future!

best regards

David

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Surprised no one has posted this yet. Last season of Top Gear. They did a comparison of GT4 versus real life. The track: Laguna Seca. The car: Honda NSX.

HERE

 

[Mr Deap]

Surprised no one has posted this yet. Last season of Top Gear. They did a comparison of GT4 versus real life. The track: Laguna Seca. The car: Honda NSX.

HERE

That's old.

To Gear comparison shown how much pressing the brake while cornering is faster in GT4. Even if you fail at the corner, GT4 forgive you for that. It was noticable when I was doing the R32 test.

 

[mustangshelby]

i have been driving my accord in a race track and the diference is in the gearbox

 

[Dave_George]

Surprised no one has posted this yet. Last season of Top Gear. They did a comparison of GT4 versus real life. The track: Laguna Seca. The car: Honda NSX.

HERE

Thanks, just watched the video from the link you posted.

Its true that gt4 allows mere average people to set blistering lap times for sure, but once again, in Jeremy's comparison he made no mention to adjusting the weight of his NSX in gt4 upto that of the one he really drove round Laguna Seca.

For it to be of more interest I would like to see a quick driver taking that NSX round the circuit in real life (or Jeremy after lots more laps and some coaching from the pro's, he has some talent but is by no means a pro im sure) and I would like to see him driving that NSX in gt4 that has been adjusted up weight wise to match better.

My prediction is that the two times would be much closer, and that the 18secs gap would come down somewhat!

But i agree that as a practical demonstration it does show how the results can be so different in real life to that of gt4 with the same person, I just think again its the details that may have been overlooked.

regards

David

 

[The Alien]

i cant remember ever hearing a pro driver using fear as an excuse for not setting a fast lap time (only "normal" people and journalists etc)... If they feel that they can take a corner a certain way and go faster they're gonna try it... its just there are lots of things not simulated correctly or not simulated/modeled at all in gt4.

I have. "If you say you're not scared while driving on the Nurburgring then you're either a liar or you're going too slow." Guess who said it? (I don't actually remember but I know it was Senna, Mansell, Prost, or Lauda)

 

[Gabkicks]

yes but they dont let them hold it back to the extent that people make it sound like. i mean look at some of the insane crashes caused by driver error because they were looking for that extra tenth of a second by braking a bit too late or entering a corner a bit too quickly.

you cant blame fear for being 4 seconds slower around tsukuba irl in a sub 300hp roadcar.

 

[slo-car]

yes but they dont let them hold it back to the extent that people make it sound like. i mean look at some of the insane crashes caused by driver error because they were looking for that extra tenth of a second by braking a bit too late or entering a corner a bit too quickly.

you cant blame fear for being 4 seconds slower around tsukuba irl in a sub 300hp roadcar.

I have a question (not intentding to start a flame war, just a friendly question): Have you ever driven a real car at the limit?

 

[The Alien]

yes but they dont let them hold it back to the extent that people make it sound like. i mean look at some of the insane crashes caused by driver error because they were looking for that extra tenth of a second by braking a bit too late or entering a corner a bit too quickly.

you cant blame fear for being 4 seconds slower around tsukuba irl in a sub 300hp roadcar.

Well, obviously.

 

[Scaff]

i cant remember ever hearing a pro driver using fear as an excuse for not setting a fast lap time (only "normal" people and journalists etc)... If they feel that they can take a corner a certain way and go faster they're gonna try it... its just there are lots of things not simulated correctly or not simulated/modeled at all in gt4.

yes but they dont let them hold it back to the extent that people make it sound like. i mean look at some of the insane crashes caused by driver error because they were looking for that extra tenth of a second by braking a bit too late or entering a corner a bit too quickly.

you cant blame fear for being 4 seconds slower around tsukuba irl in a sub 300hp roadcar.

Sorry but I have heard plenty of drivers give that reason for not setting a lap time or after a particulalry difficult race.

Its something I have posted on before and something a number of race drivers have said about a number of different sims/games. The simple fact that you can't die does have an effect on you and the way in which you approach it.

I've driven the 'ring in real life and its a massively more intimidating place that any game or sim manages to get across, I'm no race driver, but again I have heard plenty comment about the 'ring in regard to the respect and fear they hold for it.

Its not lighty that Jackie Stewart coined the name 'The Green Hell', or that Fangio made his comments about the place, or that F1 drivers wanted it removed from the calender before Lauda's accident.

Also no one that I recall has said it is the only factor, most people would agree that GT4 or Enthuisa or GTR or dare I say it LFS, are not 100% acurate. They are not and a large amount of what is missing is the part that gets your hands sweating when you do push it that little bit further in the real world.

If you don't think race drivers feel fear or that it limits them in any way at all I would suggest expanding your reading a little more, because the biographies and histories of racing are litter with examples.

Please accept this not as a flame (because its not), nor an attempt to defend GT4 are uber-accurate (because its not), just an alternative perspective on your opinion that most race drivers have little or no regard for their own safety.

They most certainly do and at times that fear will raise its head, the important factor is what they then do with that fear.

Another area of 'fear' that should be remembered is that of loseing time or position. Pushing that little bit to far over the limit may result is putting a tyre on the grass (something I have yet to see well recreated in a sim) and the resulting loss of traction. Fear of losing position here is also a factor.

The car will also play a huge role, if the car is 'talking' well to the driver and letting him/her know how close to the limit it is then the driver may well be more open to playing with fear. On the flip side a car that does not let a driver know what is happening will result in a situationin which the driver is a lot less happy to take risks.

Dismiss the above is you wish, but its taken from more histories, biograpies and personal discusions with drivers than I care to remember.

Fear is a factor, one that will vary with driver, track, car and conditions; but a factor no the less and one that should not be dismissed lightly.

Regards

Scaff.

 

[sucahyo]

Great works Dave_George 👍.

Add to this the fact that to GT4, weight=traction, then you start to see where the more powerful (and usually heavier) cars have an advantage.

The gross weight vs. manufacturer's weight is a very valid and irritating complaint.

It would be interesting if we can compare the tire diameter too, or actual tire diameter vs manufacturer tire diameter vs GT4 tire diameter.

tire diameter (inch) = gear ratio x final drive x speed (mph) / (pi x 0.00094697 x rpm)

It would be interesting to test if different tire have different diameter. In GT2 normal tire is smaller than other tire in my test. And In GT2 tire diameter have very big influence in cornering grip, like Corvette Sting Ray '67 vs
Corvette 427 Stingray '69. The latter is faster in corner even with almost the same weight and power.

Car with heavier weight in GT2 usually have bigger tire diameter too, making heavier car faster in corner. Like Intrepid ES vs Silvia spec R.

I don't know if this has already been tested in GT4 or not.

 

[niky]

Hmmm... never noticed... the best test would be to see where each gear tops out in N tires versus R tires.

And I've always had the contention that tire sizes have an enormous effect on car modelling. I note it often in my reports, and I believe it's one of the issues responsible for the fact that you can never quite match a road car to a race car of the same make 1:1 even if you've got all the other factors (power, weight, suspension tuning) exactly identical.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

now my .02
While fear clearly IS a factor, vehicle control is also a factor. how you can learn the limits is also a factor. In GT4, you can learn by going to fast. IRL, you can not. Imagine if, in GT4, you HAD to learn by never going to fast, never wrecking. imagine what your time would be.
but also remember that IRL, it's a lot easier to turn when/where you want to, you don't "miss" the inside of a corner, whether it be over or under, "missing" a corner entry is much easier to do in GT4.
How do all these factors play out, exactly? we'll never know. because we'll never die from GT, and it's probly gonna be a while till we're sitting in a recaro-game seat, holding an actual wheel, shifting with a 6/7-speed, and pumping a clutch with our left foot. (to get the same control) even then, the wheel will have to be calibrated and pressurized so it moves with a similar resistance, and doesnt simply whip from side to side. and the seat has to lean, to simulate some g-force too.
we'll also never have to learn without dying. we'll always be able to go 1mph to fast, and hit the wall.
What we do know, is that in GT4, cars don't have proper powerbands(most), and they (almost) all spin the tires to easy in a straight line. and most (that I've tested) are to fast. i.e., a Viper don't go 202, Z06 don't go 180+, etc.
Oh, and some don't spin enough around corners, even though they spin to much in a straight line.
They also don't accelerate fast enough while spinning the tires. PD made burnouts seem like the slowest possible way to pull out. at drag strips across America, spinning tires on FWD's result in much faster than 17 second 1/4 mile's. Like even my car. that goes fastest DOING it's best burnout, all the way through 1st.

Also, no, different tires do NOT have different circumferences. street/sport/race all the same, tested that over a year ago.
Hope this helps.

 

[sucahyo]

And I've always had the contention that tire sizes have an enormous effect on car modelling. I note it often in my reports, and I believe it's one of the issues responsible for the fact that you can never quite match a road car to a race car of the same make 1:1 even if you've got all the other factors (power, weight, suspension tuning) exactly identical.

This can be a big benefit in OLR .

Also, no, different tires do NOT have different circumferences. street/sport/race all the same, tested that over a year ago.
Hope this helps.

I see, thanks, do touring car have bigger tire compared to normal road car?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I see, thanks, do touring car have bigger tire compared to normal road car?

They should. there's no real way to tell, as the axle itself is likely larger. and as you probly already know, if the axle ratio is increased, the same gear ratio with the same tire still won't equate.

 

[Wolfe]

I see, thanks, do touring car have bigger tire compared to normal road car?

^ 225mm/255mm-wide tires.

^ 290mm-wide tires.

 

[sucahyo]

They should. there's no real way to tell, as the axle itself is likely larger. and as you probly already know, if the axle ratio is increased, the same gear ratio with the same tire still won't equate.

Are you talking about GT4 or real life? If it's GT4 I think we can find it by the same equation.

do Axle ratio same as Final drive ratio?

^ 225mm/255mm-wide tires.

^ 290mm-wide tires.

Thanks . It will be interesting to find out how GT4 simulates this .

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Are you talking about GT4 or real life? If it's GT4 I think we can find it by the same equation.
do Axle ratio same as Final drive ratio?

GT4. axle ratio is the rotating mass of the axle. i.e., how many times the axle spins for every turn of the final drive. - this would also be affected by putting larger (circumference) tires on the car.
This is why when people put 44's on giant trucks, they need quicker gears, otherwise 1st gear would drive them to 80mph, which makes for piss-poor acceleration.
Example: 2nd gear goes to 60mph @ 6000 rpm. tire size: 20in (around) if you put a tire that is 25in (around), 2nd gear will now reach 75mph @ 6000 rpm. BUT, the same can happen if your axle is bigger.
Final drive is turned by the individual gears, (1st,2nd,3rd,etc) which engage when you release the clutch pedal, connecting them to the flywheel, which is connected to the crankshaft, which spins at the engine rpm.
to put it simply, the axle and final drive ratios have nothing to do with each other.
That is why I say we can't tell if the circumference of the Tires (rotational mass) is different between race and road cars. because the axle itself could be of different size, and is likly larger on race cars to handle the extra power and grip from wider, sticky, slicks.

255mm - 295mm

I believe they said rotational mass, which is not affected by width. however, if they meant width, then I would assume GT factors width in.

 

[RenesisEvo]

Thanks, just watched the video from the link you posted.

Its true that gt4 allows mere average people to set blistering lap times for sure, but once again, in Jeremy's comparison he made no mention to adjusting the weight of his NSX in gt4 upto that of the one he really drove round Laguna Seca.

For it to be of more interest I would like to see a quick driver taking that NSX round the circuit in real life (or Jeremy after lots more laps and some coaching from the pro's, he has some talent but is by no means a pro im sure) and I would like to see him driving that NSX in gt4 that has been adjusted up weight wise to match better.

The other thing that concerns me is a) Jeremy used a controller, and a D-pad at that - perhaps he would have been slower in a DFP? b) the tyres on the NSX in the game would have likely been far more grippy than those on the car in real life. I suspect he was on S2's (arcade/standard fare) when something like N3 would be more appropriate. There is also the fact that GT4, no mater how good it can be, will never be able to truely model the car's handling. You can't, especially if you want another 700 cars in the game that handle differently.

 

[sucahyo]

That is why I say we can't tell if the circumference of the Tires (rotational mass) is different between race and road cars. because the axle itself could be of different size, and is likly larger on race cars to handle the extra power and grip from wider, sticky, slicks.

I see.

I am not sure if it's implemented in GT4 though, since I don't see variable for axle ratio in GT4 memory hacking.


1st row: reverse, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th
2nd row: final drive
3rd row: final drive?

That is why I always assume tire size only related to gear ratio, final drive, rpm and speed.

 

[Wolfe]

I believe they said rotational mass, which is not affected by width. however, if they meant width, then I would assume GT factors width in.

What I gathered from niky's post was that tire width was an issue...? Tire width affects grip, which in turn affects handling and speed, and the racecars should have wider, grippier tires than tricked-out street cars.

Or are you guys just talking about diameter?

 

[sucahyo]

Or are you guys just talking about diameter?

It should be both, but I don't know how tire width simulated in GT4.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I see.

I am not sure if it's implemented in GT4 though, since I don't see variable for axle ratio in GT4 memory hacking.


1st row: reverse, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th
2nd row: final drive
3rd row: final drive?

That is why I always assume tire size only related to gear ratio, final drive, rpm and speed.

I would have to see a lot more of it than that, and have a basic understanding of the program your running, and what everything there means. right now, I see almost no numbers in line 2, where you say the final drive is.
But if I took a guess, the 3rd number for gearing is likely the AUTO setting they have in GT4, which does change what gear ratios you can select from, but wouldnt change axle ratio.

I'm sure tire width is accounted for, that's easily gained information. Axle ratio's, however, require quite the research. I agree, it's likely not included.

I have an off-brand G-Tech device, for my car, which actually works amazingly well, by me telling it the weight, and explaining how to guestimate my car's CD., It simply nailed my 1/4 times, (according to a drag strip) and also gave me a very good estimate of my hp at the wheels. (according to other dyno results I've since found)
My point is, if these companies can figure out what power it takes to accelerate at any given rate, then surely they could figure out the reverse. and that makes me wonder how these multi-billion dollar companies can't get it right.??