GT4 vs REAL - An investigation of times

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dave_George
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I see.

The program works by displaying the value of what is stored by GT4 in memory. It is for Skyline GTS-T type M R32

row 1, column 5 & 6 = 69 15, read as 15*256+69 = 3.909 (reverse)
row 1, column 7 & 8 = 69 15, read as 15*256+69 = 3.909 (1st)
row 1, column 9 & 10 = 190 8, read as 8*256+190 = 2.238 (2nd)
row 1, column 11 & 12 = 240 5, read as 5*256+240 = 1.520 (3rd)
row 1, column 13 & 14 = 132 4, read as 4*256+132 = 1.156 (4th)
row 1, column 15 & 16 = 104 3, read as 3*256+104 = 0.872 (5th)
row 2, column 13 & 14 = 27 15, read as 15*256+27 = 3.867 (final/default?)

row 4 & 5 contain the suspension setting.
 
@Wolfe: I meant width... but diameter is also an interesting question. But as far as I've seen, each gear seems to top out at the same speed, whether you're on N, S, R or Rally tires.

Would be a real headache for the next GT if they had to factor in rotational mass, inertia and rolling resistance for aftermarket (different sized) wheels and tires.

Damn, I wish I had that program... would it be possible for me to hack GT4 cars with that, or is it not possible with this version yet? (Forgive me, I hardly ever visit the Hybrids page) The fully customizable suspension menu is so limited by the auto-settings, it's sometimes infuriating! :lol:
 
@Sucahyo Based on that, it's probly the "auto" setting in column 3, after the final drive in 2. but I certainly can't be sure. I assume brake balance and downforce and other settings are on a different page?
 
niky
@Wolfe: I meant width... but diameter is also an interesting question. But as far as I've seen, each gear seems to top out at the same speed, whether you're on N, S, R or Rally tires.

Would be a real headache for the next GT if they had to factor in rotational mass, inertia and rolling resistance for aftermarket (different sized) wheels and tires.

Tested it and I could find no difference at all with regard to v-max and different tyre types, which would indicate that they are all effectively the same diameter.

Interestingly increasing width, while improving overall grip (bigger contact patch size) can hamper the cars ability to turn-in and most importantly can reduce v-max as you have more rolling resistance and aero drag from the increased width. We are however talking about very high speeds here and for racing the gains in grip are most important, but it is one of the main limiting factors in F1 car v-max. The aero drag greated by the large tyres F1 car run is huge.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
Tested it and I could find no difference at all with regard to v-max and different tyre types, which would indicate that they are all effectively the same diameter.

Interestingly increasing width, while improving overall grip (bigger contact patch size) can hamper the cars ability to turn-in and most importantly can reduce v-max as you have more rolling resistance and aero drag from the increased width. We are however talking about very high speeds here and for racing the gains in grip are most important, but it is one of the main limiting factors in F1 car v-max. The aero drag greated by the large tyres F1 car run is huge.

Regards

Scaff

Did you test for a full weardown stint? I´m curious about tyrewear. Has PD calculated the wear, ie, the more worn the tyre, the smaller the diameter?
 
Scaff
Interestingly increasing width, while improving overall grip (bigger contact patch size) can hamper the cars ability to turn-in and most importantly can reduce v-max as you have more rolling resistance and aero drag from the increased width. We are however talking about very high speeds here and for racing the gains in grip are most important, but it is one of the main limiting factors in F1 car v-max. The aero drag greated by the large tyres F1 car run is huge.

Regards

Scaff

Of course, but as you said, that applies more to F1 cars and very high speeds. :)

I just hope the measurements I got for the M3 and M3 GTR are correct...the only place I could find that had the tire measurements for the GTR were Supercars.net... :lol:
 
@niky, I do that with PS2 emulation software. I don't know if MK's program work for GT4 too.

@LeadSlead#2, I am not sure, but according to this, it should be at the same page.

@Wolfe2x7, if both car use the same gear ratio and final drive, is the speed same for the same rpm?
 
The Alien
I have. "If you say you're not scared while driving on the Nurburgring then you're either a liar or you're going too slow." Guess who said it? (I don't actually remember but I know it was Senna, Mansell, Prost, or Lauda)

I belive it was Jackie Stewart who said that. Even though he was always fast there and won he said he hated to race there. If I remeber correctly he said that during a race at the Nurburgring he probably goes through more emotions than a person does in a lifetime.

Off course race drivers have fear. They are human like all of us and I'm sure have pretty much same amount of fear. Like in all trades I'm sure they seem more confident than a "normal" person in their trade, and because of their skill and the high risk envoirment, it can be mixed up with lack of fear.
 
Team666
Did you test for a full weardown stint? I´m curious about tyrewear. Has PD calculated the wear, ie, the more worn the tyre, the smaller the diameter?

I believe they removed that factor in GT4. IRL, the difference is very negligable anyway, maybe 1 or 2 mph in top gear, not even that in lower gears. -- So if it is in GT4, they fixed it, to more correct amounts. as you know, in GT3 it was quite a large difference.

@Wolfe: tire sizes you gave sound correct, but 295's are likely the rear tires on the race car, 255's or so I'd guess.
 
Scaff
Interestingly increasing width, while improving overall grip (bigger contact patch size) can hamper the cars ability to turn-in and most importantly can reduce v-max as you have more rolling resistance and aero drag from the increased width. We are however talking about very high speeds here and for racing the gains in grip are most important, but it is one of the main limiting factors in F1 car v-max. The aero drag greated by the large tyres F1 car run is huge.

In a book by Jeff Daniels (EVO car magazine & a car engineer) he says that Weight/Pressure=Area which means that a wider tire will not give you bigger contact patch(area), just different shape of the contact patch(area)??? :scared: Assuming off course that the 2 tires needs same pressure of air.

Cheers

Bullitt73
 
Bullitt73
In a book by Jeff Daniels (EVO car magazine & a car engineer) he says that Weight/Pressure=Area which means that a wider tire will not give you bigger contact patch(area), just different shape of the contact patch(area)??? :scared: Assuming off course that the 2 tires needs same pressure of air.

Cheers

Bullitt73

There's no delicate, or polite way to say this, so brash it is.
Either you misread, or misunderstood, or, he's an idiot.
Most likely, he meant front to back, which will not be affected by tire width. side-to-side, however, it would clearly have to be.
If the circumference of the tire is increased, you will gain a small amount front-to-back, but it'll be heavier, too.
 
sucahyo
@Wolfe2x7, if both car use the same gear ratio and final drive, is the speed same for the same rpm?

Only if the tires/wheels have the same rim size and profile, or some combination of differences between the two that equate to equivalent circumferences.
 
Wolfe2x7
Only if the tires/wheels have the same rim size and profile, or some combination of differences between the two that equate to equivalent circumferences.
I mean do you already test that in M3 and M3 GTR ?
 
Bullitt73
In a book by Jeff Daniels (EVO car magazine & a car engineer) he says that Weight/Pressure=Area which means that a wider tire will not give you bigger contact patch(area), just different shape of the contact patch(area)??? :scared: Assuming off course that the 2 tires needs same pressure of air.

Cheers

Bullitt73

True, however the 'different' shape contact patch is more likely to keep 'more' tyre in contact with the road during deformation under cornering. Its more like a bigger 'potential' contact patch, rather than a guarantted one. It does however also depend on a whole range of other factors such as tyre compound, pressure, temperature, sidewall size, tyre construction, tarmac type, etc.

Its a huge and very complicated subject, and all of this is before you even start to look at the cf of the tyre and how that relates and interacts with the load placed upon it at any given time. All of which then determines the percentage and angle of the slip limit of the tyre.

Hence the very general statement that wider tyres = more grip, it is a general statement and for most cases OK.

BTW - Which book by Jeff Daniels is this, always on the look out for a good read.

Regards

Gideon
 
The name of the book is "Car Suspension at Work: Theory and Practice of Steering, Handling and Roadholding". I found the book a difficult read, but the tire section was great.

Off course there are other factors like sidewall size, tyre compound etc, but it's an interesting point, and you can't argue with maths (Weight/Pressure=Area). 👍 I do agree with you Scaff that in genral it's easy to say a wider tire gives better grip, beause it's usually made to be more sporty, better tyre compound, softer compound, or whatever need to be done.

According to the author, a wider tire will give you a wider but shorter(direction of travel) contact patch compared to a more narrow & longer contact patch. I made a picture to explain what I mean.

tirewidth.jpg

Another interesting reason to look at the formula is off course when it comes to driving. It shows the reason why we need to control weight shift when driving. In general more weight to the front=more grip or vice versa.

When it comes to race tires , they use low pressure tires("ballons") to take advantage of the width they are allowed to use. Can't exactly remeber the reason. Been a while since I read the book.

Cheers
 
Just finished reading the GT4 vs REAL article. Great job. 👍

About the M3 CSL I remeber Clarkson saying in his review that you have to sign a piece of paper saying that you agree not drive the car in the rain because of the tires fitted. That doesn't sound like any normal road tire to me? So maybe the M3 CSL should be driven with S-tires in GT4? The M3 CSL demo/replay that comes with GT4 is driven on S-Medium if I remember correctly. Not that it proves anything. :nervous:

Again great article. Keep up the good work. 👍
 
Bullitt73
The name of the book is "Car Suspension at Work: Theory and Practice of Steering, Handling and Roadholding". I found the book a difficult read, but the tire section was great.

Off course there are other factors like sidewall size, tyre compound etc, but it's an interesting point, and you can't argue with maths (Weight/Pressure=Area). 👍 I do agree with you Scaff that in genral it's easy to say a wider tire gives better grip, beause it's usually made to be more sporty, better tyre compound, softer compound, or whatever need to be done.

According to the author, a wider tire will give you a wider but shorter(direction of travel) contact patch compared to a more narrow & longer contact patch. You see what I mean?? :)

Another interesting reason to look at the formula is off course when it comes to driving. It shows the reason why we need to control weight shift when driving. In general more weight to the front=more grip or vice versa.

When it comes to race tires , they use low pressure tires("ballons") to take advantage of the width they are allowed to use.

Cheers

Thanks for the info on the book, I will be on the look out for that one.

On the same subject you may find the following of interest in regard to lots of stuff tyre related.

The Wheel & Tyre Bible


Scroll down to the section Fat or thin? The question of contact patches and grip.

It does a very good job of explaining the subject in simple terms (or as simple as they can get).

Regards

Scaff
 
Thanks Scaff for the link. I lost it after my computer re-format and completly forgot about that one. I think it was you who gave it to me last time too. :) 👍 I'll stop my silly attempts of explaining and refer to

The Wheel & Tyre Bible

Bullitt73
 
Bullitt73
Just finished reading the GT4 vs REAL article. Great job. 👍

About the M3 CSL I remeber Clarkson saying in his review that you have to sign a piece of paper saying that you agree not drive the car in the rain because of the tires fitted. That doesn't sound like any normal road tire to me? So maybe the M3 CSL should be driven with S-tires in GT4? The M3 CSL demo/replay that comes with GT4 is driven on S-Medium if I remember correctly. Not that it proves anything. :nervous:

Again great article. Keep up the good work. 👍


Thanks Bullitt73!

About the CSL, I too remember reading about the disclaimer, Im not sure if its because they are genuine track tyres or if it was just BMW doing some serious a@** covering!! (Just in case.....)

regards

David
 
Here is some info I found about the tyre that comes with the M3 CSL:

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

This is as close as it gets to track tyres on the road! Used more recently as original equipment on the BMW M3 CSL this tyre is built for pure performance driving. The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup is a competition tyre designed specifically for serious performance enthusiasts featuring a racing tyre tread compound built for track performance. Word is that this tyre is best when being used at 160 - 220°F, anyone driving in cold, icy or snowy weather should be very aware that this tyre does not empathise with any of these conditions – be careful! Toyo have also created a track ready tyre more recently so we await the early customer feedback on that.


A few links:

http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinPilotSportCup.html

http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/michelin

http://www.cartype.com/page.cfm?id=450&alph=ALL
 
The CSL's tires are street-legal, but very performance-orientated. My guess is that they would be N3's.

That is, of course, assuming that N2's are performance tires, and N1's are ordinary tires or (most) all-season tires. S tires seem to be dedicated track tires, with R tires being all-out slicks.

sucahyo
I mean do you already test that in M3 and M3 GTR ?

Scaff already tested the differences between tires in GT4 in post #64. :)
 
I'm still not convinved that the M3 CSL should be on N3 tires. If the N stands for Normal tires, they should be approved for the wet. Any tire not approved for the wet seems a bit too special to qualify for a normal sports tire. Also to make sense if N1 are all season cheap tires, N2 comfort tires and then we have N3 for sports tires. Now if the dry only M3 CSL tires are N3, where does that leave the all weather sports tires??

In real life you get cheap tires, more expensive comfort tires and all weather sports tires.
 
Bullitt73
I'm still not convinved that the M3 CSL should be on N3 tires. If the N stands for Normal tires, they should be approved for the wet. Any tire not approved for the wet seems a bit too special to qualify for a normal sports tire. Also to make sense if N1 are all season cheap tires, N2 comfort tires and then we have N3 for sports tires. Now if the dry only M3 CSL tires are N3, where does that leave the all weather sports tires??

In real life you get cheap tires, more expensive comfort tires and all weather sports tires.

The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres on the M3 CSL are approved for wet use, if they were not then they would not be road legal. Michelin do however quite clearly state that the tyre will not perform at its best in cold or wet conditions, the tyre is DOT approved for road use and as such you can drive it on the road rain or not, you just need to take far more care in the cold and/or wet. I would however imagine that for countries with winter tyre laws that it would be far from legal at certain times of the year, but then so are a lot of other tyres (ie anything not classed as a winter tyre).

I personally think a certain amount of the whole disclaimer issue with the M3 CSL tyres was marketing hype, as tyres of this nature are not unique to Michelin or the M3 CSL. Many high performance barely road legal tyres are not great in the wet or cold. Its similar to the whole 155mph limiter on the CSL, BMW UK would remove the limiter only if you held a race licence. I mean what difference does that make, do you need a race licence to buy a 155+ mph car from any other manufacturer? No of course not, nor do you need to sign a disclaimer if you go and buy Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres and fit them to your own car, but the press and hype both of these actions created did BMW and the CSL no harm at all.

Lets be honest GT4 (and a lot of others) are hardly great in the area of tyres, for example the best tyre to use at Tsukuba wet are the R5's, which is a very soft slick tyre. Driving a full race slick (soft or otherwise) on a wet surface is akin to driving on ice, yet in GT4 they offer amazing levels of grip.

For me I would like to see this area much improved for GT5.

I did a test of the N tyres with the standard M3 which seemed to indicate in terms of basic grip the OE tyres for the M3 were between an N2 and an N3, given the improved level of performance with the M3 CSL the N3's would not be that far off the mark.

BMW M3 - An analysis of tyre choice


Just as Wolfe has said and I agree with.

Wolfe2x7
The CSL's tires are street-legal, but very performance-orientated. My guess is that they would be N3's.

That is, of course, assuming that N2's are performance tires, and N1's are ordinary tires or (most) all-season tires. S tires seem to be dedicated track tires, with R tires being all-out slicks.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
Lets be honest GT4 (and a lot of others) are hardly great in the area of tyres, for example the best tyre to use at Tsukuba wet are the R5's, which is a very soft slick tyre. Driving a full race slick (soft or otherwise) on a wet surface is akin to driving on ice, yet in GT4 they offer amazing levels of grip.

Yes. Slicks work fantasic in the rain. as long as you never encounter puddles. On a rainy day, with very light rain, so long as there is no standing water that you have to drive through, slicks will do far better than street tires. perhaps even more so than in the dry.
Motor Trend ran a Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT to the tune of 9.9 seconds in the 1/4 mile...on slicks, in the rain.
If there were puddles, I'm sure that time would be different.

I'd love to know the math behind this "tires all have the same contact patch" thought. and see the measurements. yeah.
I cant fathom a 185/75/13 having the same contact patch as a 345/30/19. No, my mind cannot see this. what would cause a wider tire to have less rubber on the ground front to back?
 
LeadSlead#2
Yes. Slicks work fantasic in the rain. as long as you never encounter puddles. On a rainy day, with very light rain, so long as there is no standing water that you have to drive through, slicks will do far better than street tires. perhaps even more so than in the dry.
Motor Trend ran a Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT to the tune of 9.9 seconds in the 1/4 mile...on slicks, in the rain.
If there were puddles, I'm sure that time would be different.
It very much depends on the ammount of rain, drainage on the track (or lack of it) track and ambient temp (lower in rain = generally lower tyre temp = lower grip).

However any degree of standing water (not uncommon on tracks as they have fine grade tarmac and almost zero camber in a lot of cases) will generally result in aquaplaneing, not a good thing at all.

My problem with GT4 is the total lack of wet tyres at all, and the wet track itself has a lot of standing water that has a negligable effect on the R5 tyres.



LeadSlead#2
I'd love to know the math behind this "tires all have the same contact patch" thought. and see the measurements. yeah.
I cant fathom a 185/75/13 having the same contact patch as a 345/30/19. No, my mind cannot see this. what would cause a wider tire to have less rubber on the ground front to back?

Here you go on the math

Tyre Bible
If there's one question guaranteed to promote argument and counter argument, it's this : do wide tyres give me better grip?
Fat tyres look good. In fact they look stonkingly good. In the dry they are mercilessly full of grip. In the wet, you might want to make sure your insurance is paid up, especially if you're in a rear-wheel-drive car. Contrary to what you might think (and to what I used to think), bigger contact patch does not necessarily mean increased grip. Better yet, fatter tyres do not mean bigger contact patch. Confused? Check it out:

Pressure=weight/area.

That's about as simple a physics equation as you can get. For the general case of most car tyres travelling on a road, it works pretty well. Let me explain. Let's say you've got some regular tyres, as supplied with your car. They're inflated to 30psi and your car weighs 1500Kg. Roughly speaking, each tyre is taking about a quarter of your car's weight - in this case 375Kg. In metric, 30psi is about 2.11Kg/cm².
By that formula, the area of your contact patch is going to be roughly 375 / 2.11 = 177.7cm² (weight divided by pressure)
Let's say your standard tyres are 185/65R14 - a good middle-ground, factory-fit tyre. That means the tread width is 18.5cm side to side. So your contact patch with all these variables is going to be about 177.7cm² / 18.5, which is 9.8cm. Your contact patch is a rectangle 18.5cm across the width of the tyre by 9.8cm front-to-back where it sits 'flat' on the road.
Still with me? Great. You've taken your car to the tyre dealer and with the help of my tyre calculator, figured out that you can get some swanky 225/50R15 tyres. You polish up the 15inch rims, get the tyres fitted and drive off. Let's look at the equation again. The weight of your car bearing down on the wheels hasn't changed. The PSI in the tyres is going to be about the same. If those two variables haven't changed, then your contact patch is still going to be the same : 177.7cm²
However you now have wider tyres - the tread width is now 22.5cm instead of 18.5cm. The same contact patch but with wider tyres means a narrower contact area front-to-back. In this example, it becomes 177.7cm² / 22.5, which is 7.8cm.

contactpatch1.gif


contact patch
Imagine driving on to a glass road and looking up underneath your tyres. This is the example contact patch (in red) for the situation I explained above. The narrower tyre has a longer, thinner contact patch. The fatter tyre has a shorter, wider contact patch, but the area is the same on both.

And there is your 'eureka' moment. Overall, the area of your contact patch has remained more or less the same. But by putting wider tyres on, the shape of the contact patch has changed. Actually, the contact patch is really a squashed oval rather than a rectangle, but for the sake of simplicity on this site, I've illustrated it as a rectangle - it makes the concept a little easier to understand. So has the penny dropped? I'll assume it has. So now you understand that it makes no difference to the contact patch, this leads us on nicely to the sticky topic of grip.

The area of the contact patch does not affect the actual grip of the tyre. The things that do affect grip are the coefficient of friction and the load on the tyre - tyre load sensitivity. Get out your geek-wear because this is going to get even more nauseatingly complicated now.

slipanglegraph.gif


The graph up above here shows an example plot of normalised lateral force versus slip angle. Slip angle is best described as the difference between the angle of the tyres you've set by steering, and the direction in which the tyres actually want to travel. Looking at it, you can see that for any given slip angle, a higher coefficient of friction is obtained with less vertical load on the tyre.

lateralforceequation.gif


As the load on the tyre is increased, the peak obtainable lateral force is increased but at a decreasing rate. ie. more load doesn't mean infinitely more lateral force - at some point it's going to tail off.
Rubber friction is broken into two primary components - adhesion and deformation or mechanical keying. Rubber has a natural adhesive property and high elasticity which allows it readily deform and fill the microscopic irregularities on the surface of any road. This has the effect of bonding to various surfaces, which aids in dry weather grip but is diminished in wet road conditions. Look at this next drawing - this depicts the deformation process as the load varies.

mechanicalkeying.gif


As the load is increased the amount of tire deformation also increases. Increasing the load also increases the contact between the tire and road improving adhesion. As the load increases, the rubber penetrates farther into the irregularities, which increases grip but at a diminishing rate. This next little graph shows the change in deformation friction (Fdef) and the deformation coefficient of friction (Cdef) with change in load.

cdeffdef.gif



As far as cars are concerned, any reduction in load usually results in an increase in the coefficient of friction. So for a given load increasing the contact patch area reduces the load per unit area, and effectively increases the coefficient of friction.
If this change in coefficient of friction were not true then load transfer would not be an issue. During acceleration grip is reduced partly from the change is suspension geometry and party from the transfer of load from one set of tires to another. Since the coefficient of friction is changing (non-linearly lower for higher loads), the net grip during acceleration is reduced. In other words maximum grip occurs when all four tires are loaded equally.

That last paragraph also explains why dynamic setup on your car is pretty important. In reality the contact patch is effectively spinning around your tyre at some horrendous speed. When you brake or corner, load-transfer happens and all the tyres start to behave differently to each other. This is why weight transfer makes such a difference the handling dynamics of the car. Braking for instance; weight moves forward, so load on the front tyres increases. The reverse happens to the rear at the same time, creating a car which can oversteer at the drop of a hat. The Mercedes A-class had this problem when it came out. The load-transfer was all wrong, and a rapid left-right-left on the steering wheel would upset the load so much that the vehicle lost grip in the rear, went sideways, re-acquired grip and rolled over. (That's since been changed.) The Audi TT had a problem too because the load on it's rear wheels wasn't enough to prevent understeer which is why all the new models have that daft little spoiler on the back.

If your brain isn't running out of your ears already, then here's a link to where you can find many raging debates that go on in the Subaru forums about this very subject. If you decide to read this, you should bear in mind that Simon de Banke, webmaster of ScoobyNet, is a highly respected expert in vehicle dynamics and handling, and is also an extremely talented rally driver. It's also worth noting that he holds the World Record for driving sideways...........

If you decide to fatten up the tyres on your car, another consideration should be clearance with bits of your car. There's no point in getting super-fat tyres if they're going to rub against the inside of your wheel arches. Also, on cars with McPherson strut front suspension, there's a very real possibility that the tyre will foul the steering linkage on the suspension. Check it first!


Its not an exact rule as two different tyres will not always run at the same pressure, but the difference will be less than most people think.

The link to the above is http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html


Regards

Scaff
 
Doesn't this assume that the tyre pressures are kept the same and that the tyre compound is the same?

I think it's a good point in general, putting wider tyres on probably won't help, unless the car set-up and tyre set-up are looked at together (suspension, tow angel, tyre pressure etc. etc.)
 
Mad Matt
Doesn't this assume that the tyre pressures are kept the same and that the tyre compound is the same?
What you mean as is mentioned in both the article and my post?



Mad Matt
I think it's a good point in general, putting wider tyres on probably won't help, unless the car set-up and tyre set-up are looked at together (suspension, tow angel, tyre pressure etc. etc.)
Quite right, not forgeting camber, and in the real world caster and the suspension deflection path under compression.


Regards

Scaff
 
I just felt he spent a long time saying why a straight tyre size upgrade won't help, but not much time on how to make it work (I read it for the first time when changing tyres IRL).

On the other hand, for GT4, it's a bit of a mute point. On the other, other hand perhaps we don't want a game where you have to be a tyre expert, suspension expert etc. ?
 
Mad Matt
Doesn't this assume that the tyre pressures are kept the same and that the tyre compound is the same?

I would assume wider tires in general are considered more sporty and therefor higher quality material, better compound, etc = better grip. Guess that's why they are more expensive. :)

According to Jeff Daniels book, there are alot of downsides to putting on wider tires. Well if you read the book, pretty much only downsides to have wider tires than ideal. :) I think the book is written at the end of 80's, but if I remember correctly he said that from a engineers point of view a 175 tire is the right size for a C-segment car. Not sure what kind of cars you find in the C-segment, Scaff?? It's more designers who wants wider tires, because of better looks.

- In the wet as many of you probably know a wider tire is worse off
- More strain on suspension
- Wider and shorter contact patch gives the tire less self centering capabilities=which means less stable. BUT gives you a quicker respons, so feels more sporty. 👍 Another downside with less self centering is that it means less feedback to the driver when tire reaches it's limit. Loss of grip is also loss of self centering (steering becomes light) from the tire. Also the wider contact patch will reach it's peak at a smaller and more abrupt slip angle, but also loose it's grip more abrupt.

Again it's been a while since I've read the book, and I don't have it in front of me to doublecheck myself. :nervous:

Bullitt73
 
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