GT5 Car Testing(FF Cars on Top Gear Test Track) Suggestions Wanted

[watermelon punch]

Just a comment on the bottom of the list. (Which is the area I know about - kei cars!)
I think on another track... you would find that the CERVO & Copen might do better than the OFC-1 Concept. Though I don't really know about the Copen Active top (I'm more familiar with the Detachable top UCD car - I think it's just a tad better)...
On paper, the OFC-1 Concept seems almost like a ringer in that group.
But on a tighter track with more angled turns, the OFC-1 loses a bit, because it has more than average understeer.
Though, IMHO, the CERVO steers like a Midget , and unless it's used by the right driver, you're not going to get the most out of it.

Though some people can deal with a lot of understeer, and others not so much.
But for my money... if you were going to say race on Eiger Nordwand Short Track, and I had to pick one of those 3 cars... The OFC-1 would likely not be my first choice, despite the fact that on paper, it should be well suited to steal the show.

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

Just a comment on the bottom of the list. (Which is the area I know about - kei cars!)
I think on another track... you would find that the CERVO & Copen might do better than the OFC-1 Concept. Though I don't really know about the Copen Active top (I'm more familiar with the Detachable top UCD car - I think it's just a tad better)...
On paper, the OFC-1 Concept seems almost like a ringer in that group.
But on a tighter track with more angled turns, the OFC-1 loses a bit, because it has more than average understeer.
Though, IMHO, the CERVO steers like a Midget , and unless it's used by the right driver, you're not going to get the most out of it.

Though some people can deal with a lot of understeer, and others not so much.
But for my money... if you were going to say race on Eiger Nordwand Short Track, and I had to pick one of those 3 cars... The OFC-1 would likely not be my first choice, despite the fact that on paper, it should be well suited to steal the show.

I found the Cervo to be surprisingly ok considering the high centre of gravity and everything. You may be right though. I have very little to no experience using Kei cars.

In the mean time I've tested a few more cars. I'll input them into the google doc in a minute.

Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R '97: 1:21:680
Acura Integra Type R '01: 1:21:322
Seat Ibiza Cupra '04: 1:21:837
Volvo S60 T-5 Sport '03: 1:20:564 - Yes my Grandad's Volvo is faster than a Focus RS (May have done a bad lap in the RS)
Eclipse GT '95: 1:21:399

Generally all very reasonable times.

As if by magic the Acura Integra Type R appeared in my UCD just after I mentioned it in an earlier post. 👍

 

[watermelon punch]

I found the Cervo to be surprisingly ok considering the high centre of gravity and everything. You may be right though. I have very little to no experience using Kei cars.

Yes! I think actually it's the high center of gravity that makes it steer like the Midget... but also helps tone down the FF understeer. Sometimes that roll can get you through corners. Though, it takes the right driver. And someone who doesn't mind that wonky steering effect.
At least that's my theory.

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

Yes! I think actually it's the high center of gravity that makes it steer like the Midget... but also helps tone down the FF understeer. Sometimes that roll can get you through corners. Though, it takes the right driver. And someone who doesn't mind that wonky steering effect.
At least that's my theory.

I also noted that the stock gearing was very well suited to the power of the car and the track. While some similar cars were struggling to 'get on top' of the gears the Cervo had quite a close ratio and since the TG Test Track has no massive top speed straight it made for quite a good feel.

 

[watermelon punch]

I also noted that the stock gearing was very well suited to the power of the car and the track. While some similar cars were struggling to 'get on top' of the gears the Cervo had quite a close ratio and since the TG Test Track has no massive top speed straight it made for quite a good feel.

Yeah, I'm not too familiar with the gearing, because I haven't driven it unmodified but maybe once. But I'm pretty sure it has more gears than the Copens. (Though perhaps not more than the OFC-1 Concept.)
That alone can make a difference in unmodified cars, of course.

 

[chuyler1]

I wouldn't say this list is pointless, but I don't think it provides very much value to the community. Here's why...

1) Putting SS tires on a car without upgrading the suspension is an unfair test. There's a reason the TRIAL Celica is at the top with a 3 second margin. It's the only car actually tuned for those tires.

2) Although stock PP, HP, TQ, KG can give you some insight, there are very few forum goers that don't race with a KG/HP or PP restriction.

3) The TGTT is pretty far removed from the typical GT5 track that people race on but I guess to each his own. Similar to Tsukuba, it is a lot of the same type of turn without much variety.

4) Giving cars just one clean lap is far from definitive. Certain cars need a warm up period where you learn different lines to take.


My recommendations:

1) Keep them completely stock including tires or when you upgrade the tires upgrade the suspensions too. Even if you stick with the stock custom suspension settings it will be a more accurate test of grip.

2) I would highly recommend doing a PP based test. HP/WT pretty much involves overtuning and using ballast and power reduction, but PP forces you to be smarter about it. A 0-ballast 0-power reduction test would reveal a lot about the cars.

3) Spend a bare minimum of 20 minutes in the car. Put a clean lap in, and then try to beat it. You'll start finding time in different sectors and after enough laps you'll string together a good lap. Often times you need a good previous lap to nail your fastest current lap.

4) Expand your test to at least one other track that has longer straights. Grand Valley East (both forward and reverse) is a great acceleration test for street cars. Nurburgring lap times are probably the best overall test of a car but a lot more time goes into getting a clean hot lap.

 

[chuyler1]

Oh, and just to hammer my point, here are some stock FF vehicle Nurburgring lap times recorded.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=214611

08:06.287 - Ford Focus RS '02 (mike_gt3)
08:21.937 - VW Scirocco R '10 (hjlamont)
08:25.188 - Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04 (deki)
08:26.205 - Volvo S60 T-5 Sport '03 (mike_gt3)

Take note of the order they appear as well as the difference in time compared to your report...

1:20:515 - Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
1:20:564 - Volvo S60 T-5 Sport '03
1:20:721 - Ford Focus RS '02
1:21:237 - Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04

One obvious thing to note is that the Focus RS comes stock with better tires and therefore is better equipped in the Nurburgring test. However, I believe the 3 other cars come with the same tires stock. There is a driver difference though, but I can assure you mike_gt3 was not holding out when he lapped the S60. He is one fast driver.

 

[XDesperado67]

I applaud your efforts at testing. That said I have to side with those questioning the methodology.

The following is a link that I think many will find both interesting and useful.

nordschleife lap times

The contributers to this thread tend to be highly skilled drivers that have spent countless hours running the ring.

They have a stock car category where cars are tested exactly as purchased. Only thing allowed is break in and oil change on new cars and engine overhaul on used cars. Testing is conducted with ABS1 and grip reduction set to real.

While many of us will never manage to match or come close to their times it can give you a good idea of the cars relative performance when stock.

For this thread I would look into some way to try and standardize the cars for more than just the tires. Perhaps pick the highest PP for a stock FF and then tune all the others to that same PP. Also keep the tuner cars seperate from the regular stock cars and the Race cars in a third section (& yes Rally Cars are still considered race cars.).

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

Oh, and just to hammer my point, here are some stock FF vehicle Nurburgring lap times recorded.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=214611

08:06.287 - Ford Focus RS '02 (mike_gt3)
08:21.937 - VW Scirocco R '10 (hjlamont)
08:25.188 - Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04 (deki)
08:26.205 - Volvo S60 T-5 Sport '03 (mike_gt3)

Take note of the order they appear as well as the difference in time compared to your report...

1:20:515 - Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
1:20:564 - Volvo S60 T-5 Sport '03
1:20:721 - Ford Focus RS '02
1:21:237 - Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04

One obvious thing to note is that the Focus RS comes stock with better tires and therefore is better equipped in the Nurburgring test. However, I believe the 3 other cars come with the same tires stock. There is a driver difference though, but I can assure you mike_gt3 was not holding out when he lapped the S60. He is one fast driver.

I wouldn't say this list is pointless, but I don't think it provides very much value to the community. Here's why...

1) Putting SS tires on a car without upgrading the suspension is an unfair test. There's a reason the TRIAL Celica is at the top with a 3 second margin. It's the only car actually tuned for those tires.

2) Although stock PP, HP, TQ, KG can give you some insight, there are very few forum goers that don't race with a KG/HP or PP restriction.

3) The TGTT is pretty far removed from the typical GT5 track that people race on but I guess to each his own. Similar to Tsukuba, it is a lot of the same type of turn without much variety.

4) Giving cars just one clean lap is far from definitive. Certain cars need a warm up period where you learn different lines to take.


My recommendations:

1) Keep them completely stock including tires or when you upgrade the tires upgrade the suspensions too. Even if you stick with the stock custom suspension settings it will be a more accurate test of grip.

2) I would highly recommend doing a PP based test. HP/WT pretty much involves overtuning and using ballast and power reduction, but PP forces you to be smarter about it. A 0-ballast 0-power reduction test would reveal a lot about the cars.

3) Spend a bare minimum of 20 minutes in the car. Put a clean lap in, and then try to beat it. You'll start finding time in different sectors and after enough laps you'll string together a good lap. Often times you need a good previous lap to nail your fastest current lap.

4) Expand your test to at least one other track that has longer straights. Grand Valley East (both forward and reverse) is a great acceleration test for street cars. Nurburgring lap times are probably the best overall test of a car but a lot more time goes into getting a clean hot lap.

I applaud your efforts at testing. That said I have to side with those questioning the methodology.

The following is a link that I think many will find both interesting and useful.

nordschleife lap times

The contributers to this thread tend to be highly skilled drivers that have spent countless hours running the ring.

They have a stock car category where cars are tested exactly as purchased. Only thing allowed is break in and oil change on new cars and engine overhaul on used cars. Testing is conducted with ABS1 and grip reduction set to real.

While many of us will never manage to match or come close to their times it can give you a good idea of the cars relative performance when stock.

For this thread I would look into some way to try and standardize the cars for more than just the tires. Perhaps pick the highest PP for a stock FF and then tune all the others to that same PP. Also keep the tuner cars seperate from the regular stock cars and the Race cars in a third section (& yes Rally Cars are still considered race cars.).

I do understand all of your points, I'm not saying that either of us is right or wrong but I have chosen to test the cars in this way for a reason.

It is to answer those countless threads asking what the fastest cars are.

I also understand what you mean by some cars taking much longer to get to grips with but I was doing the test with just 1 flying lap
A) Because it can help me (and hopefully others) to see how easy a car is to drive. It's all very good if you post an excellent time in something, but in my opinion if you've crashed and burned countless times before hand it doesn't prove much. In an online race you only get one shot, crash and well, you've lost a load of time and crashed.

B) I'm a single person and I'm pretty busy (I won't go into details but take my word for it). I can't spend 20 minutes in every car or it would take me forever and I'd never be able to keep up with any suggestions. And as stated above, when you're swapping from car to car in online races you don't want a car that takes you 20 minutes to get used to every time.

And as for your comments on the Nurburgring test, you say they are all super fast drivers, while the majority of people on GT5 are kind of like me. Can handle a reasonable lap time and keep the car under control but won't be setting the world on fire.

My reasoning for choosing Top Gear Test Track was in the OP. I won't be using it for all tests but thought it would be suitable for this one

And as stated above I will be doing tests with PP or BHP limits in the future but I can't do everything at once...

Hope this clears a few things up

Ryan

 

[watermelon punch]

1) Putting SS tires on a car without upgrading the suspension is an unfair test. There's a reason the TRIAL Celica is at the top with a 3 second margin. It's the only car actually tuned for those tires.

I was thinking the same thing... or something along those lines.
I'm thinking that's a tuned car (TRIAL Celica)... And my thinking was, that in any particular class with the tires it comes with, a tuned car is going to be better since it's... well, tuned to begin with in "unmodified" condition.
?? Is that the right line of thinking.

The TGTT is pretty far removed from the typical GT5 track that people race on but I guess to each his own. Similar to Tsukuba, it is a lot of the same type of turn without much variety.

TGTT seems to be mostly popular among the masses for casual racing, actually. I think a lot of the regulars around GTP probably turn their nose up at it. (He who shares my ps3 would be one of them.)
I personally enjoy the entertainment from time to time. It's the most kooky track in the game. (Excluding SSR nonsense.)

But if you're looking at TGTT as a place you want to run the cars, I'll take that as a valid "goal" for testing.
Any goal is better than none, even if it's an unpopular one.

But yeah, well, neither of those tracks could tell you how well a car is going to perform on Laguna Seca, Rome, or heaven forbid a Mt. Aso tarmac track. That should be understood from the get-go.

4) Giving cars just one clean lap is far from definitive. Certain cars need a warm up period where you learn different lines to take.

Yeah... That reminds me, I wanted to add that, to be honest, hot lap times to determine the performance of a car... I think it's only helpful if you get enough drivers in on the testing. The more drivers doing the comparison, the more chance there is of dialing out driver preferences, driver familiarity with the track or particular car, and good-day/bad-day issues.
(I mean if we're going to be scientific about it, that is. )

 

[chuyler1]

Countless threads should be directed to the Nurburgring thread. It has been created by people that are not too busy to put the time in. People that don't crash and burn to get those laps. They are beyond that. A bad lap for them is a little wheelspin exiting a corner or a late brake. The times posted are "best laps" but if one were to record all their laps I'm sure the average lap for each car would reveal the same order of performance.

I just don't see how anyone would want to be directed to your thread full of "one flying lap" times on TGTT when they could get a definitive list of lap times at the most challenging track in the game. So if someone asks, what is the fastest FF car, they should go to the nordschleife lap times thread.

The only exception would be if someone asked, "What is the fastest ###pp FF car on SS tires?" The Nordschleife thread cannot answer that...but neither can your thread...or any thread for that matter, since the game offers endless tuning options.

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

Countless threads should be directed to the Nurburgring thread. It has been created by people that are not too busy to put the time in. People that don't crash and burn to get those laps. They are beyond that. A bad lap for them is a little wheelspin exiting a corner or a late brake. The times posted are "best laps" but if one were to record all their laps I'm sure the average lap for each car would reveal the same order of performance.

I just don't see how anyone would want to be directed to your thread full of "one flying lap" times on TGTT when they could get a definitive list of lap times at the most challenging track in the game. So if someone asks, what is the fastest FF car, they should go to the nordschleife lap times thread.

The only exception would be if someone asked, "What is the fastest ###pp FF car on SS tires?" The Nordschleife thread cannot answer that...but neither can your thread...or any thread for that matter, since the game offers endless tuning options.

You're still not getting what I'm saying.

Yes, those Nurburgring drivers probably are fantastic, clean and fast but they are part of a minority.

Most of the people who play this game play it as a casual hobby. They aren't going to know every track like the back of their hand, the braking points, the turning points and the 'perfect' racing line.

This is more aimed towards them.

And as for your repeated jabs at my choice of track.

Top Gear is one of the most popular TV shows in Britain

It's undoubtedly the most popular car show in Britain, if not the world (I know many Americans like yourself who much prefer the British Top Gear)

The new series of Top Gear has just started and one of the main weekly features of the show, the star in a reasonably priced car is run on the top gear test track in an FF car. As far as I remember it always has been.

This is why I choose the TG test track. It's something that lots of people can relate too, they know what the course is like and they know it's not like the Nurbugring. Does that make it a bad choice/the wrong track?

Ryan

 

[rohinghai]

Thanks man

 

[chuyler1]

Ok, so when Top Gear wants to test a car to see how it stands up to other cars they have tested what do they do? Do they send Captain Slow out there? No. They send the Stig.

Sure Captain Slow can drive around the track and he probably doesn't know all the brake points. But we as the viewer really don't care what times he runs. We want to know the defacto standard of how fast the car is in the best hands. That is a benchmark.

It's great that you are taking the time to record your best laps...I'm just letting you know that it does not actually answer the question nor does it serve as any sort of benchmark. All your lap times say is that you personally couldn't figure out how to drive the Ford Focus RS faster than the Volvo S60 despite many other gamers concluding that it is a better car with a better P/W ratio and more finely tuned suspension.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Ok, so when Top Gear wants to test a car to see how it stands up to other cars they have tested what do they do? Do they send Captain Slow out there? No. They send the Stig.

To take that a step further, all cars are tested with the tires they come with. The Stig also takes several laps to get a feel for the car and give his fastest standing start.

I for one think the TGTT is a good test track. It doesn't have any elevation changes, granted, but it doesn't bother me that it doesn't have a long straight.

 

[watermelon punch]

I think I see what's going on here.

Fact is, not everyone's the Stig.

And certainly not everyone playing GT5 is mike_gt3... or Chuyler1.

I think it's a much better test of a car's usefulness to see a variety of drivers test them, and get some ballpark average from there.

But then I'm not racing with young mistake-free racers who are naturally talented + have put hours of racing in, so that they can get in any kind of car with any type of handling, and lay down a perfect lap at the Nurburgring without spending hours upon hours. I'm racing with mostly mature folks who race a few hours a week after the kids are in bed. That sort of thing.

So I see the OP's point... His testing makes sense for his purposes somehow.
Whatever the goal is, apparently he has one.

If one never experiments for themselves, one can never truly learn, and never enjoy the learning.

I don't win races often. I almost never set even nearly the fastest hot lap amongst my racing pals. I'm slow, often too cautious, and not about to be a wacky wild risk taker as I get on either... LOL
But I'm racing for the same reasons most other people are... because it's fun.
I wouldn't tell a kid to quit the Little League he enjoys so much, simply because he doesn't have the innate talent to someday have a shot at Major League baseball. And I wouldn't tell him not to listen to his coaches instruction, because the coach couldn't make it into the Minor League.

 

[RustyBadge]

With me being a Ford Nut i had to try out all the different ones.
Focus ST, Focus RS, Focus ST170, RS200, Esc Cossie etc.

To my utter surprise the one i had the most fun with was the Ka !!
Its Tuned to roughly 450pp (260bhp) with many tweaks to the Engine suspension and gearing.

After about 20mins of messing round with the settings i managed to put in a decent lap (1:17:6xx).

It might not be the fastest FF car out there, but me and my mate had a hell of a lot of FUN with our own personal little grudge matches.

Ka Vs 106 rallye
Ka Vs Civic Type R (EK Racing Mod Version)
Ka Vs Lotus Elise
Ka Vs Focus ST

The cars were within a second or so on pretty much every lap and made for some real close racing.

 

[watermelon punch]

OH I'm so glad to hear someone else say that about the Ka. It's a fun car!!!!! I really like it.

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

I think I see what's going on here.

Fact is, not everyone's the Stig.

And certainly not everyone playing GT5 is mike_gt3... or Chuyler1.

I think it's a much better test of a car's usefulness to see a variety of drivers test them, and get some ballpark average from there.

But then I'm not racing with young mistake-free racers who are naturally talented + have put hours of racing in, so that they can get in any kind of car with any type of handling, and lay down a perfect lap at the Nurburgring without spending hours upon hours. I'm racing with mostly mature folks who race a few hours a week after the kids are in bed. That sort of thing.

So I see the OP's point... His testing makes sense for his purposes somehow.
Whatever the goal is, apparently he has one.

If one never experiments for themselves, one can never truly learn, and never enjoy the learning.

I don't win races often. I almost never set even nearly the fastest hot lap amongst my racing pals. I'm slow, often too cautious, and not about to be a wacky wild risk taker as I get on either... LOL
But I'm racing for the same reasons most other people are... because it's fun.
I wouldn't tell a kid to quit the Little League he enjoys so much, simply because he doesn't have the innate talent to someday have a shot at Major League baseball. And I wouldn't tell him not to listen to his coaches instruction, because the coach couldn't make it into the Minor League.

I'm not testing just for myself or else I wouldn't have put all the time and effort into making this list.

You're the sort of person I'm testing for by the sounds of things.

I see Chuyler1's point about the stig doing all the testing but that is in 'real life' in cars that very few of us will ever get to drive, let alone own and race around a track. On GT5 it's not very difficult to own any of the cars I've tested so if there's any intermediate drivers out there it may be more relevant than having a pro lapping well out of their reach; and better for morale as well.

 

[stormbringer]

How about adding the FTO gp version r and gpx in there. I enjoy driving em, although mine are tuned up a bit.

Good job on the list 👍

 

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

How about adding the FTO gp version r and gpx in there. I enjoy driving em, although mine are tuned up a bit.

Good job on the list 👍

Thanks Man

I added the Gp Version R last night. Haven't got a Gpx though, gonna have to hope it pops up in my UCD some time soon

 

[rohinghai]

You have to test the 2CV. I think it can go pretty high up your list