GT5 delay - who's really responsible

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Dravonic
I disagree. I can't see any difference between a great painter and a game developer like Kaz. Both are trying to achieve something. Both take their time to do so. Both never sell their works of art before considering them finished. They do it like they think they should and if someone thinks he should've used a different stroke or included reverse lights, both don't give a damn. And I could go on.
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You missed the part where he said adding damage was mostly due to (NA) users and he basically felt it was useless as they were likely to quickly turn it off for being too hard...

So basically he did something he didn't really want to do and basically feels its a wasted effort anyways...

Oh and artists do this all the time too, its where the term "became mainstream" comes from.
 
Devedander
You missed the part where he said adding damage was mostly due to (NA) users and he basically felt it was useless as they were likely to quickly turn it off for being too hard...

So basically he did something he didn't really want to do and basically feels its a wasted effort anyways...

Oh and artists do this all the time too, its where the term "became mainstream" comes from.
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That's putting it too nicely. I believe the correct term is "sold out." Consult the dictionary under Metallica.
 
Devedander
You missed the part where he said adding damage was mostly due to (NA) users and he basically felt it was useless as they were likely to quickly turn it off for being too hard...

So basically he did something he didn't really want to do and basically feels its a wasted effort anyways...

Oh and artists do this all the time too, its where the term "became mainstream" comes from.
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And he's coming up with the most advanced damage engine ever created for a video game because he doesn't care? Yeah... right...

People have asked for damage for I don't know how long, and his answer always was "when we can do it right". He's not only adding it because others wanted him to. He is adding it because he wants to. People have asked him to add reverse lights and skid-marks even before they asked for damage and we are getting those too, right?

Besides, GT is mainstream since GT1.
 
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dave_sz
He didn't want damage. He didn't want beautiful cars blemished or ruined while racing. I can understand it. As for the competition having damage. Last I checked all forza did with damage is reduce your earning for having your car damaged. Not much of an incentive. Poorly implemented damage is worse than no damage at all.
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brilliant lad! fantastic! same opinion here... i would rather wait for another 2 years just to play perfect game then play it half finished... either they should make damage for all cars or no damage at all...

cheers lad!

btw wha means PD? just cant get it...
 
2010/2011 damage should be considered normal in a driving sim in my opinion.
 
Strittan
If GT5 is released as late as in 2011, there is no way they can make it worth the wait. Face it, Polyphony screwed up this time around. Unless the online races will be flawless, just like in iRacing, GT5 will be a big fail in my book. That's a guy who have played every game in the series speaking...
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Well said, especially about the online... to be honest I think even late summer - fall would be to late, I mean 6 months delay because of some "production issues"?
Getting ridiculous.
 
H20HYBRID_GT
Well said, especially about the online... to be honest I think even late summer - fall would be to late, I mean 6 months delay because of some "production issues"?
Getting ridiculous.
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PD's note that it was for production issues could very well be correct, but I don't think that they had a 6-month delay in mind when they did that. I think Sony intervened in there somewhere and is making the decision as to when the game will be released now. Or, it's probably Sony from the start. Either way, I'm sure if it was for production issues, I'm glad they delayed it. Would rather play a bug free game then have them release something like NFS:Shift.
 
nzoreo
About 10000 polys (mostly dependent on the tree) if you want it to look alright from a distance, as for realistic variegated leaves why would anyone bother?


odds are making the reverse lights work could just be a texture change or something similar i doubt you would really need light coming off the actual bulb, just the impression that its on, i mean really if they did put reverse lights in to the game then they wouldn't really be breaking any new ground
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10k polys for a tree?

Damn, I wish I had your poly budget. I had a strictly enforced 800 poly limit and a pair of 512 textures to work with (one for the trunk, the other for the leaves/smaller branches).

The reverse lights would be the same as he braking lights. the car already has the light geometry, all they need is the shining light itself.
H20HYBRID_GT
Well said, especially about the online... to be honest I think even late summer - fall would be to late, I mean 6 months delay because of some "production issues"?
Getting ridiculous.
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Well, while you were sitting around not doing anything or playing nay other racing games waiting for GT5 to come out for the past 4 years, I was playing the following:

GTR2
GTR Evo/Race On
Ferrari Challenge
Supercar Challenge
Motorstorm 2
rFactor
Halfbrick Rocket Racer
PGR4
in the racing genre.

For shooters:
Orange Box
L4D
COD4
Shattered Horizon
Crysis
Killzone 2
Uncharted 2

and many others, including:
Braid
WOrld of Goo
Little Big Planet
Splinter Cell
AaaaaaAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAA: A Reckless Disregard for Gravity
Eufloria
Garrys Mod

and many, many others.

If you're being so bitter about PD abandoning you and you're feeling bored because you've got nothing to play, it's your own fault because there's tons of good games out there yet for whatever reason you've decided NOT to play them in favour of waiting for a massive game from a company that's known to take ages to make massive games.
 
I think the OP must be deluded - here's why....

FIRST - and by a very large margin...

Does he really think that GTP's influence is a big enough to sway one of the world's major corporations on the release date of one of it's most prestigious franchises??? After all the complaints that Sony / PD don't listen to their fans??

Yes - I am confident that GTP IS influential at PD, hence Jordan getting one of the GT awards recently. However, I would expect that influence to be carefully filtered and actioned over a longer term (eg - taking a reasoned, measured view of fans wishlists for the next development cycle), not to bin a release date for a financially very important title.

I suspect that it is far more likely that Sony / PD were spooked by the so so press coverage post E3 / Gamescon, and by what they saw in Forza 3. KY confirmed that his team, and he himself had been playing FM3 in an October or November interview.


SECOND - and this is the fundamental problem with this game...

it's not actually real. It's a driving simulator. The important bits are how much fun it is to race
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SPOT ON - it's not real - it is in fact a very good racing GAME, and it is NOT a simulator.

Marketing this product as the "Real Driving Simulator" is the most damaging thing that Sony / PD have done with the franchise - WHY - because that sets the benchmark and the goals that they then have to measure up against and be judged by.

It is this statement alone that raises the expectations so high, and rightly so.

If it were a simulator, at least in the normal definition of simulator in the PC world, it wouldn't just have reverse lights, it would also have dashboard oil temp and pressure warning lights, low fuel warning lights and a whole host of other lights....

... and the operation of these would reflect the model monitoring the simulated condition of the engine oil temp and pressure based on operating loads..... and the fuel light would come on in response to the fuel level being below a certain point, because the weight and consumption of the fuel load would be accurately modelled in the game physics - not just as an energy source for the engine, but the mass and it's effect on the CoG would be modelled...

I get the sense that the word "simulator" means different things to the console and PC communities??

Don't get me wrong, I bought a PS2 because GT wasn't available on the PC. GT is a graphically gorgeous racing game, rightly at the top of it's genre for the racing, realism, attention to detail for it's car models and depth and breadth of the encyclopaedic car colelction.

It's just that KY / PD have taken the game a long way to perfection along these core benchmarks - they now have to catch up with the other aspects that justify the "Real Driving Simulator" tagline
 
Maybe Kaz played Eiger Nordwand, jumped, and realised gravity wasn't 100% accurate, it's not even 10% accurate I wouldn't call it gravity at all, and as we speak they are re-doing the whole physic engine all over again. Joke aside, StarCraft 2 keeps being pushed over and over again, the game is losing interest even by its hardcore fans, since the last battle.net and beta delay announcement most forums and news websites covering it are either ghost towns or gone completly dark, Sony is playing a dangerous game, they might think GT is too big to fail, but we've been shown recently that it's never the case.
 
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Dravonic
And he's coming up with the most advanced damage engine ever created for a video game because he doesn't care? Yeah... right...

People have asked for damage for I don't know how long, and his answer always was "when we can do it right". He's not only adding it because others wanted him to. He is adding it because he wants to. People have asked him to add reverse lights and skid-marks even before they asked for damage and we are getting those too, right?

Besides, GT is mainstream since GT1.
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He is making the most advanced damage engine because he is a perfectionist. He said himself damage was included in large part to user request.

We can go back and forth again over speculation and what makes sense but ultimately ky said it himself.

As for other user requested features, I will pull the "has not been released yet" so we might actually see them, but more importantly not doing everything the users demand doesn't mean you didn't make some decisions based on user requests.
 
Couldnt agree more with OP..


Nothing in this world is perfect - especially not a game.
Even if perfect existed, it would only be perfect for one.
With millions of users, there would be millions of requests to how it should be.

The massive amount of moan and crying from some fans defenately pushed release back quite a bit. Ky says several times that "the fans wanted xxxx change" there you go - official

But there is good news! Its certain there will be a GT6 and beond... could that mean... even better games in the future? But how is that possible when we want a perfect game now :S Its not possilbe to make it perfect - systems have limits.. people have limits. And limits are being pushed all the time, the limit for possible features in GT6 will be much wider than in GT5 - and the time limit will be much bigger until GT5, as long fans dont accept its gonna be as good as it can - and then you have to wait for the next ;) like everything else....

(wtb flameshield)

ps: this isnt based on any specific person :)
 
OK, at least this "delay" thread posts a rational question and sparked some discussion. So..

As we all know, Kaz is a bit of a perfectionist. Perhaps worse, he seems like an indecisive perfectionist, which means that scope creep will be one of the contributers to the games delay. However, SONY are a business, and badly need to get high profile games out into the market to boost hardware and software sales. I'm sure that if SONY could have pushed for a Spring 2010 global launch, they would have done. Clearly the game is not ready, for one reason or another, and only PD can be the cause of that.

Does it all hinge around damage? Not sure, but will cosmetic damage on road cars be much better than what we have already seen in Forza 3? I doubt it, and in such a case would rather have the option to turn off cosmetic damage. When two cars collide at speed in Forza 3, they both end up looking like they have just been rubbed down with sandpaper... OK, no damage is unrealistic too, but which is worse? Mechanical damage is a whole different ball game, and I'm happy to have my car react accordingly because for the most part, mechanical damage is not visible.

Hopefully the cosmetic damage on race cars will be full-on, much more realistic, and worth the wait - IF that was the cause of the delay!
 
The OP clearly doesn't understand what a simulator is supposed to be if he's willing to let all the fan demanded 'perks' - which have been available on MANY a racing game for YEARS - slide, just to get the game out.

I was playing Grand Prix Legends in 1998 with brutally unforgiving damage modeling and engines that died from abuse, hell, even the original Indycar release in the early 90s had damage to put GT to same. Plenty of PC games have featured variable weather, damage and driving models that do feel fairly near to reality IMO. Best not mention AI.

The reality of the situtation is this project has fallen behind the expectations that have been raised by COMPETITION. If Codemasters, Turn 10 and maybe even Bizarre Creations didn't exist then GT would probably be out. I can envisage the reviews already, which will sum the game up as solid in most areas, spectacular graphically but stubbornly bringing nothing but a slightly out of date vision to the table.

I'll still buy it though as I have a hard-on for japanese cars in 80s and 90s.
 
Radracing
I'm thinking more of the online feature. I think they are still trying to figure out how to have dedicated servers or hosts that can run 16 grid cars online without getting dumped in the middle of a race.
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That isn't hard, at all. I think people think it is because that's what happens in call of duty and the like. Call of duty online is written specifically to put you into ongoing games when the games/people available online is at a certain number. Writing a rule saying you can't join games in progress or you'll join the game when the next round starts isn't a problem. Many games have the join next round "feature". If GT5P has this problem though, then I don't know what the hell sony are doing.
 
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Gran Turismo claims to be "the real driving simulator".

Now, if I'm heading into my 5th installment of a game (prologues not included) I expect my real driving simulator to do what it says on the tin. Reverse lights, realistic looking scenery and damage are part of that. I can't get into my car, drive into another car, bounce off it, fly into a wall, bounce off it whilst admiring a tree made up of two perpendicular layers, then put my car into reverse without any indication of my intentions in real life. So why, in my real life driving simulator should I put up with it?
 
R1600Turbo
PD's note that it was for production issues could very well be correct, but I don't think that they had a 6-month delay in mind when they did that. I think Sony intervened in there somewhere and is making the decision as to when the game will be released now. Or, it's probably Sony from the start. Either way, I'm sure if it was for production issues, I'm glad they delayed it. Would rather play a bug free game then have them release something like NFS:Shift.
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Yeah, even tho I don't trust them, I believe the production issues, it's just a bit sad they don't actually tell us what these would be... and surely it shouldn't take so long.

TBR 427
The reverse lights would be the same as he braking lights. the car already has the light geometry, all they need is the shining light itself.
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That's my understanding, too, don't know what's so hard about simple lights???

Well, while you were sitting around not doing anything or playing nay other racing games waiting for GT5 to come out for the past 4 years, I was playing the following:
How come, you know what I've been doing or not? ;) Anyways...
GTR2 played it, driving is ok, racing, especially online, not my style...
GTR Evo/Race On same as above
Ferrari Challenge booooring...
Supercar Challenge hmm, not bad as game, but has framerate issues
Motorstorm 2 yep, good game, bit too arcedey tho
rFactor never played, had enough from GTR..
Halfbrick Rocket Racer huh?
PGR4 ewww...
in the racing genre.

For shooters: ok... I HATE shooters
Orange Box ...
L4D ...
COD4 ...
Shattered Horizon ...
Crysis ...
Killzone 2 big exception! Very cool game, I suck online tho... SP kept me occuppied for a week or so
Uncharted 2 omg... judging from beta... omg that's what's good nowadays?

and many others, including:
Braid ?
WOrld of Goo ?
Little Big Planet nope...
Splinter Cell ...
AaaaaaAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAA: A Reckless Disregard for Gravity ?
Eufloria ?
Garrys Mod ???

and many, many others.

If you're being so bitter about PD abandoning you and you're feeling bored because you've got nothing to play, it's your own fault because there's tons of good games out there yet for whatever reason you've decided NOT to play them in favour of waiting for a massive game from a company that's known to take ages to make massive games.
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When, where have I said im bitter about it? I'm not, in fact I agree there are some other games worth playing, RE5 and Tekken6 are by far the best games I know of... playing those a lot!
Problem is there are like ZERO good racing games out for PS3 yet and PS2 got some good racers out even before GT3 came out... so I'm stuck playing games I enjoy, but are not in my favourite genre (racing). I'm also a little digusted and surprised that shooters are THE thing all of the sudden, if I wanted play shooters I'd bought me a 360 much earlier.

Having done that recently, I must say while 360 generally may not be technically top-notch, what they pulled with F3 is very amazing and I somehow have my doubts GT5 will top that, especially, graphics and driving physics... if F4 has night and weather, GT will have a even harder time to survive...(assuming GT will never have this)

dave_sz
That isn't hard, at all. I think people think it is because that's what happens in call of duty and the like. Call of duty online is written specifically to put you into ongoing games when the games/people available online is at a certain number. Writing a rule saying you can't join games in progress or you'll join the game when the next round starts isn't a problem. Many games have the join next round "feature". If GT5P has this problem though, then I don't know what the hell sony are doing.
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IMO PD should make a GT5 online beta and get our feedback, because i somehow have my doubts (Prologue?) they have a clue about how proper online should work...
 
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H20HYBRID_GT

IMO PD should make a GT5 online beta and get our feedback, because i somehow have my doubts (Prologue?) they have a clue about how proper online should work...
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Gotta agree with you there. Prologue online mode smacked of a developer that had no basic conception of online play whatsoever but, having said that, I think that's pretty much where PD were at the time and they choose, probably quite wisely, to focus on the underlying mechanics of the netcode and data collection, with the actual interface tagged on as almost an afterthought.

Given the screenshots we've seen from the academy events it looks like they've got this area pretty sorted now. Fingers crossed...
 
Devedander
He is making the most advanced damage engine because he is a perfectionist. He said himself damage was included in large part to user request.

We can go back and forth again over speculation and what makes sense but ultimately ky said it himself.

As for other user requested features, I will pull the "has not been released yet" so we might actually see them, but more importantly not doing everything the users demand doesn't mean you didn't make some decisions based on user requests.
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Yeah he said one of the main reasons was user request but, unlike you implied, that doesn't mean he didn't want to. He always showed interest in damage, even though he doesn't consider it to be of extreme importance.
 
A perfeccionist of a game crreator combined with a stupid Sony corporation=what we are going through. I really feel like GT5 was started late.
 
How come, you know what I've been doing or not? Anyways...

Easy you're complaining that GT5 has taken too long. You SHOULD be playing the hundreds of other games out there, and when GT5 eventually goes on sale, THEN buy it.

GTR2 played it, driving is ok, racing, especially online, not my style... Please explain? It's GT racing, over a selceion of tracks in all conditions (night, rain, both). What's not to like?
GTR Evo/Race On same as above Well yeah, but again, what's not to like? Still tons of content, close racing in all conditions, nice online...
Ferrari Challenge booooring...Alright the card game thing they added in sucked, but the racing was actually pretty good.
Supercar Challenge hmm, not bad as game, but has framerate issues
Motorstorm 2 yep, good game, bit too arcedey tho...And? It's a racing game, have fun with it! Nobody thought less of Die Hard because Bruce Willis can't actually do those things in real life.
rFactor never played, had enough from GTR...Give it a go.
Halfbrick Rocket Racer huh? This was by far the greatest racing game of 2009. In fact, it's probably the greatest racing game for this generation of consoles. This is what a racing game should be. It's a shining example of what you can create when you're not worried about shiny photo mode graphics, steering buffers and pretending to be a sim. PLAY IT NOW.
PGR4 ewww... wat. Sure it's not exactly realistic, but it's good relaxing fun. It's like a nice easy drive whereas GT5 and the PC sims are more demanding of the player if they want to set good times.
in the racing genre.

For shooters: ok... I HATE shooters..I HATE your taste in games.
Orange Box ... PLAY THIS GAME
L4D ... if you don't want to, you don't have to
COD4 ... same as above
Shattered Horizon ... THIS GAME IS COOL. zero-g shootan IN SPACE.
Crysis ... Alright, only attempt Crysis if you have decent machine. If not, don't worry.
Killzone 2 big exception! Very cool game, I suck online tho... SP kept me occuppied for a week or so WHY DID THEY TAKE MY LIGHTNING OWNAGE CANNON AWAY FFFFFF
Uncharted 2 omg... judging from beta... omg that's what's good nowadays? Judge the whole, completed game.

and many others, including:
Braid ? It's available on every platform now BUY IT
WOrld of Goo ? I think this is only PC, but if your computer was built in the last 10 years, it'll work. It's only $5 or something off Steam as well.
Little Big Planet nope...AWW COME ON!
Splinter Cell ... you played all 4?
AaaaaaAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAA: A Reckless Disregard for Gravity ? Available on PC for $5 on Steam BUY IT
Eufloria ? On Steam, $5, BUY IT it's a great RTS.
Garrys Mod ??? http://www.garrysmod.com/news/ look there.

When, where have I said im bitter about it? I'm not, in fact I agree there are some other games worth playing, RE5 and Tekken6 are by far the best games I know of... playing those a lot!

You didn't say you were bitter about it, but that's how you acted nonetheless.

RE5 and Tekken though...I hope you understand that playing those games invalidates any opinion you have ever had, currently do or ever will have about AI, and how bad it is, might be, or was.

Problem is there are like ZERO good racing games out for PS3 yet and PS2 got some good racers out even before GT3 came out... so I'm stuck playing games I enjoy, but are not in my favourite genre (racing). I'm also a little digusted and surprised that shooters are THE thing all of the sudden, if I wanted play shooters I'd bought me a 360 much earlier.
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Supercar Challenge is still a good game. So is MotorStorm (2, not 1). I have no idea why you don't like any of the PC games - they're ALL about the racing, the tutorials for GTR2 are great and they'll help you a lot. THe racing is close, there's tons of conditions and with 35+ car grids there's action a plenty. Strategy can also be factored in if you want to do longer races with pit stops, mechanical wear and pretty good damage.

Basically, it's got all the features everyone's been wanting GT5 to have, minus the car list (though you can go online and download thousands of add-on cars. Heck, I downloaded a 400+ car pack that had EVERY prototype from the last decade).
 
Dravonic
Yeah he said one of the main reasons was user request but, unlike you implied, that doesn't mean he didn't want to. He always showed interest in damage, even though he doesn't consider it to be of extreme importance.
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I don't have the interview now but, he did specifically say he wanted to see beauty in all the cars and damage would take away from it. So, yes, he was very much against GT ever having damage.
 
dave_sz
I don't have the interview now but, he did specifically say he wanted to see beauty in all the cars and damage would take away from it. So, yes, he was very much against GT ever having damage.
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And he also showed, quite a few times, his interest on it. I'm sure he has mixed feeling about it, like many people here, but, again, that doesn't mean he doesn't want to.
 
dave_sz
I don't have the interview now but, he did specifically say he wanted to see beauty in all the cars and damage would take away from it. So, yes, he was very much against GT ever having damage.
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"very much" against GT ever having damage seems to be extrapolating a bit on what he said. You could just as equally say he has mixed views, or that he was covering for what was then a lack of damage in the game, or that it wasn't a strong feeling against damage and his views have since changed.
 
WolfRacer543
"very much" against GT ever having damage seems to be extrapolating a bit on what he said. You could just as equally say he has mixed views, or that he was covering for what was then a lack of damage in the game, or that it wasn't a strong feeling against damage and his views have since changed.
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Probably this 👎
 
TBR 427
Supercar Challenge is still a good game. So is MotorStorm (2, not 1). I have no idea why you don't like any of the PC games - they're ALL about the racing, the tutorials for GTR2 are great and they'll help you a lot. THe racing is close, there's tons of conditions and with 35+ car grids there's action a plenty. Strategy can also be factored in if you want to do longer races with pit stops, mechanical wear and pretty good damage.

Basically, it's got all the features everyone's been wanting GT5 to have, minus the car list (though you can go online and download thousands of add-on cars. Heck, I downloaded a 400+ car pack that had EVERY prototype from the last decade).
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Yeap, SCC is a good game, if it wasn't for the framerate issues, which are gamekiller #1 for racing games in my books and MS2 is a good game as well we (I) shouldn't forgot about Dirt2, which I really like and to me is by far the best racing game for PS3 as of now.
Other than that, we just will have to agree about having differing tastes in videogames, I guess...
I just love Tekken and RE too much as I would be able to understand how someone cannot like them. :sly:

The reason I always loved GT is, because it never was too serious about the "simulator" thing like all the "PC sims", but it seems that's gonna change and I think it's a big mistake, but we will see.. ;)
 

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